The Situation
We are in a room with some creatures and there are candles burning that are filling a certain area with a smoke aroma kinda thing. but we run in and fight. paladin and cleric run in make there saves all is dandy. I make my save. My summon doesn't. He knocks me unconscious. Cause the smoke is a Insanity spell effect, Mild tweaks no big deal really. So my summoned creature takes me to the cleric he heals me the paladin goes to leave after the creatures are dead but we have been informed of the smoke and the cleric tells him to help and also fails his save and knocks me unconscious again after he killed my summon. and he still leaves knowing the cleric could kill me. Im not evil or unlawful in any way in the paladins eyes.
Hang on, the Summon knocked you out, then took you to the Cleric?
Then the Cleric killed your summon or???The story might need to be rewritten.
This is really hard to understand. From the way I read it, the eidolon(summon) was killed, the summoner was unconscious and the paladin left you alone with an insane cleric. Is that correct?
If the paladin left the room (and had the intent of returning) so that he isn't forced to kill any of you then he did good.
If the paladin left the room (and had no intent of returning to the party), well it depends what god he worships and gives him his paladinhood, if it's serenrae then yes it falls from grace, the same is with iomidae, shelyn not so much, torag also no unless the paladin has given his word that he won't leave them, erastil probably no.
If the paladin is oathbound (has taken one of the oaths in the UM) then there are more things to consider.
Also what wraithstrike said, can you clear that up a little?
{quote}Im not evil or unlawful in any way in the paladins eyes
But are you?
The Eidolon has Outsider tagged onto it and if you are evil then so is the eidolon which will "ping" on a Detect Evil earlier than the actual Summoner.
We need clarification please.
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Paladin does not help those in need (here in danger of losing their lives) : Paladin falls.
It is even worse because he is leaving his brothers in arms who asked for his help AND he has the best chance of resisting the Insanity-inducing smoke.
Also he doesn't need to kill the Cleric to save you : nonlethal damage is part and parcel of the game.
I just do not know how the player can justify such an act from a Paladin.
Also I would like to point out that a Paladin isnt a neverending punching bag. If it is determined to do this and a character refuses to, the paladin doesnt have to throw his life away for stupid people.
Secondly, I cant help but think parts of the story have been left out. Maybe you are playing a CN character that has done tons of shady stuff that has made the paladin think maybe the world would be a better place without you in it. A CN character isnt far at all from CE and does things sometimes that can be considered CE. Maybe he made up his mind that you are on your own.
His job is to protect the helpless, not the foolish. If you put yourself in front of the meatgrinder, its not his fault that he doesnt throw himself headway into the grinder to take the hit.
Were there any innocents in the smoke that needed saving?
If no, why would anyone go back into it? Also, being a paladin doesn't require him to act lawful stupid. Nor does it require him to be responsible for other people's poor decisions.
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This smoke seems to be a Confusion effect based on character actions. In most games "attack nearest creature" is interpreted to be "attack nearest conscious creature," so the paladin may have been trying to draw the cleric out of the smoke.
What happened after the paladin left? Game end? Cleric does kill you? More details please.
Yes more details please, and i have seen that you avoid telling us the alingment of your character so please do tell us your character alingment and more importantly the real* alingment of your character.
Also please tell us what the paladin (or the paladin's player) said about his action.
*some poeple enjoy writing something like CN to their character sheet and play CE characters.
I don't know, I am not sure what it is, but something about the story seems off. I am sure the paladin has a different version of the story.
Somehow I get the impression you want to ride a guilt trip on the paladin, and the player might not take well to being goaded by another player, one that probably plays a CN, 8 year old kid.. yea I might be wrong, but I have seen many similar characters and parties do not always take well to child characters.
The paladin walks off to do what exactly, just aimlesly wanders off ?
Maybe he figured he could put out the fire swiftly and stop the madness, maybe the smoke prevented him from seeing anything
Just discuss it with your party, I am sure you guys have a fari idea what is acceptable for a paladin and what not.
Sounds pretty bad. The paladin just left a brother in arms to die in the smoke, the cleric, that would be an act worthy of a fall.
Note the cleric asked for help to put out the smoke and the paladin just walked. There weren't even any monsters left, definitely a fall from me, if I GMed.
At the least if I were GM I would ask the paladin to explain his actions to me and give me arguments why he shouldn't fall.
Well, now that you have established your willingness to punish the paladin player for other people's decisions, tell me how many times can the others run into the smoke (aka danger) before the paladin player has fullfilled his obligation to save them and is safe from falling?
Innocent doesn't matter helping those in need does and a knocked out party matter i think counts as a person in need. Also what poor decisions? We didn't know about the smoke till after we were in it and after that the effects didn't give us a chance to get out. Also the save wasnt that high there for it wasnt a real risk for the pally i think he needed a 4 or higher to pass it.
This poor decision: "5th round A red dragon comes out thanks us for killing its captors and informes us that the smoke is bad that we should put it out. Cleric gets to act normal heals the summoner moves towards the smoke source and ask the paladin to help put out the smoke."
Why does the cleric's and summoner's willingness to walk into a dangerous situation obligate the paladin player to follow? Were there others in the smoke that needed saving? Why would the paladin stay in an obviously dangerous area if there wasn't? If the smoke was emanating from candles, maybe the paladin decided that it was a short term effect that would go away on it's own in a short time (after the candles burnt down). If there were no pressing reasons to approach the source of the smoke, why do it?
I'm very, uh, cynical about these kind of situations with Paladins and adjudication at different tables. Many DM's are not equipped to do it and many people bring with them their own view (right or wrong) about what a paladin is required to do to keep it fair. It quite often turns into how can we screw the pally for not doing what we want him to do.
@Remco Sommeling
The OP said that his character is Neutral.
Now you might be right, either english isn't the OP's first language or he doesn't tell us something.
Or the paladin's player just wanted to change his character and did all that for that, if that's what happening there isn't much reason to discuss that other than for academic reasons.
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Umn, a "red dragon" "walks Out" So, you're stuck in confusion cloud and your cleric is following the advice of an evil dragon. So the Paladin is given the choice of staying in the cloud to fight the dragon, potentially killing his allies due to the smoke OR allying with said dragon to destroy something it wants gone OR walking out, possibly to regroup and figure out a different way to take on the dragon. Oh, and he has also just been informed that he killed the evil dragon's (Edit:)captors (who were probably innocent or at least not evil.) Sounds like both you and your GM want the Paladin to fall. [Redacted Insult]
Umn, a "red dragon" "walks Out" So, you're stuck in confusion cloud and your cleric is following the advice of an evil dragon. So the Paladin is given the choice of staying in the cloud to fight the dragon, potentially killing his allies due to the smoke OR allying with said dragon to destroy something it wants gone OR walking out, possibly to regroup and figure out a different way to take on the dragon. Oh, and he has also just been informed that he killed the evil dragon's (Edit:)captors (who were probably innocent or at least not evil.) Sounds like both you and your GM want the Paladin to fall. [Redacted Insult]
Please don't use insults, let's keep the level and quality of this discussion.
Also you are right about the red dragon prisoner part, although evil guys might have imprissoned the red dragon but there is a good chance that there were good guys those who imprisoned him.
Sure, edited the post, please edit the quote and we'll have removed it from the thread.
Ok did it, thank you.
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The character is Neutral.
@Karkon
After he left we managed to get rid of the smoke and with no real resources left had to rest and now since the paladin is gone we have no way of finding him so we are stuck and left on are own.
But to the point what happens after he left is unknown to him and therefor doesnt determine rather his act was right or wrong which is why i left it out. hope this helps.
A couple things stick out here. First (not in the quote) is that there was a red dragon who said you should put out the smoke. Red Dragons are CE which is the antithesis of the paladin's alignment.
help those in need (provided they do not use the help for evil or chaotic ends)...a paladin avoids working with evil characters or with anyone who consistently offends her moral code.
So putting out the smoke as suggested by the CE red dragon could have easily caused his help to be used for evil or chaotic ends.
Second, you do not seem to have been in actual danger. The cleric did not kill you, you guys put out the smoke.
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A couple things stick out here. First (not in the quote) is that there was a red dragon who said you should put out the smoke. Red Dragons are CE which is the antithesis of the paladin's alignment.
help those in need (provided they do not use the help for evil or chaotic ends)...a paladin avoids working with evil characters or with anyone who consistently offends her moral code.So putting out the smoke as suggested by the CE red dragon could have easily caused his help to be used for evil or chaotic ends.
Second, you do not seem to have been in actual danger. The cleric did not kill you, you guys put out the smoke.
Ah, but in Golarion, from what I recall of the article in the back of RotRL 4, are not completely uniform in alignment. IIRC chromatics could more or less drift as much as two alignment steps though such drift happened in the single digit percents or low teens at most for single steps. I think whites were the only ones that were never good. I read it from a library and don't have the charts handy, but there were numbers given.
We need to ask the Paladin what alignment he detected to know whether the dragon was trustworthy or not. Assuming he actually did a detect evil.
Are they playing in Golarion? I did not see that mentioned. Also the paladin's actions seem very mysterious here. I feel like we are missing part of the action not the other side of the story but other actions that might have been taken that are not laid out for a full decision.
But based on what we do have I would say the paladin does not fall.
2nd round Paladin and cleric made there saves again and cleric kills his target. The summoner made his save the summon doesnt and has to attack the closes thing and knocks the summoner out.
3rd round Paladin makes his save cleric doesnt and just speaks gibberish.
the summon gets to act normally so he picks up the boy and takes it to the paladin so he can heal him. Summoner Bleeds out.4th round Paladin kills his target. Cleric has to attack closes creature kills the summon. Summoner bleeds out.
This situation is also mechanically messed up. The moment the Summoner becomes unconscious, his Eidolon is dismissed.
If the summoner is unconscious, asleep, or killed, his eidolon is immediately banished.
Unless this Summoner is using SM spell-like ability, the eidolon should have had no actions after the Summoner was knocked out.
this sounds like a standard monkey wrench i used to throw back in the day.
i would include a child on the path of moral and spiritual descent onto the path of pure evil. and this was more fun to include in a party with a paladin.
i didn't use 8 year old boys to do this, i used 12 year old girls instead. similar idea though.
So let me see if I understand this correctly: You got yourself into a tight spot, the paladin walked out on you, that pissed you off, and now you are here on the forums looking for ammo to use against him in the hopes that you can cost him his paladin powers as revenge for his actions (or lack there of).
Yeah. Real mature. That will help your group have much more fun, I'm sure. *rolls eyes*
this sounds like a standard monkey wrench i used to throw back in the day.
i would include a child on the path of moral and spiritual descent onto the path of pure evil. and this was more fun to include in a party with a paladin.
i didn't use 8 year old boys to do this, i used 12 year old girls instead. similar idea though.
....doesn't even know what to say.
....doesn't even know what to say.this sounds like a standard monkey wrench i used to throw back in the day.
i would include a child on the path of moral and spiritual descent onto the path of pure evil. and this was more fun to include in a party with a paladin.
i didn't use 8 year old boys to do this, i used 12 year old girls instead. similar idea though.
i used to love messing with paladins.
@Atarlost
Even if that's true about Golarion (i am not sure), one has to assume that chromatic are evil and metalic are good until proven otherwise.
@Gignere
Only with certain gods. Upon re-reading the paladin oaths, serenarae and iomidae are the only gods who have serious issues with leaving a comrade behind and cost you your paladinhood (in fact iomidae would most probably have a lot of issues since the paladin also violated the leave the battle last oath), torag would have a problem only if the paladin has formaly given his word that the paladin will protect the others, erastil probably won't have a problem on the contrary if the paladin left in order to live and return to his community everything would be ok.
That's what i said that we must know what god gives the paladin his powers.
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With the information we have (as confusing as it may be), the only thing I can see that the pally did wrong was leaving an 8 year old kid in a room with insanity causing incense stuff and cleric suffering from said incense in it. And if he was going after the red dragon, it might be ok. But like a bunch of others have said, we're missing info.
With the information we have (as confusing as it may be), the only thing I can see that the pally did wrong was leaving an 8 year old kid in a room with insanity causing incense stuff and cleric suffering from said incense in it. And if he was going after the red dragon, it might be ok. But like a bunch of others have said, we're missing info.
The 8 year old kid is a 12th level adventurer, i don't think that this is the normal so you can't apply the normal standarts on the paladin either.
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@Remco Sommeling
The OP said that his character is Neutral.
Now you might be right, either english isn't the OP's first language or he doesn't tell us something.
The reason he said that is from the original post;
"I'm not evil or unlawful in any way in the paladins eyes."
Not; 'My PC is Neutral', or 'My PC is Good'.
More like 'My PC may be Evil, but he hasn't discovered it yet, heh, heh, heh!'.
It took several prompts to get the actual alignment, which Remco (and I, when I read it) inferred to be avoiding the issue.
There are dozens of threads on these boards from people complaining that their PC was under a Misdirection, or Undetectable Alignment effect, but still had a bad run-in with a paladin, and that's not fair, because they should be able to do whatever they like and the paladin can't stop them unless they radiate evil and I want him to fall but my GM won't do anything about it so I'm writing here so I can get some strangers to agree with me so I can throw it in his face and if they don't make him fall I'll hold my breath until I go blue and you think I won't but I will and you'll see and then you'll be sorry.....
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If I was playing the paladin, I'd leave the room because I couldn't be sure that I wouldn't succumb to the insanity and kill both the cleric and the summoner. I'm more good to them outside the smoke than inside it.
It would be metagaming to reason that he can succeed his save on a roll of a 4.
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If I was playing the paladin, I'd leave the room because I couldn't be sure that I wouldn't succumb to the insanity and kill both the cleric and the summoner.
Can we be sure the insanity hasn't worn off?
Given the stream of unconnected ideas in the OP, I think it was written while he was still high.
I think I'd have to leave the room. too, and I'm not a paladin.
I'd be afraid I would kill to uphold the English language.
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Not talking about the siliness of the subject and the fact we don't have the paladin's version, if he saw everyone acting like crazy guys because of the smoke, he did the right thing by going back instead of taking the risk to murder his companions. A safe paladin is of more help to people in need than a b*##@&# insane one.
If I was playing the paladin, I'd leave the room because I couldn't be sure that I wouldn't succumb to the insanity and kill both the cleric and the summoner. I'm more good to them outside the smoke than inside it.
It would be metagaming to reason that he can succeed his save on a roll of a 4.
What god does your paladin worships?
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What god does your paladin worships?If I was playing the paladin, I'd leave the room because I couldn't be sure that I wouldn't succumb to the insanity and kill both the cleric and the summoner. I'm more good to them outside the smoke than inside it.
It would be metagaming to reason that he can succeed his save on a roll of a 4.
I don't care what god the paladin worship. The paladin needs to be lawful good and honorable. Leaving behind someone you have been adventuring for 10+ levels in any reasonably sane society will be unlawful. It is at best a neutral act if not chaotic. Paladins in PF don't even need to follow a god, they just need to be lawful good and honorable.
How can anyone argue that leaving behind someone who has adventured with you for 10+ levels is lawful or even honorable? If paladins are allowed to do that then why even have a paladin code of conduct. Hell I can just be a friggin coward, and still be a paladin. Because running in every encounter at the first sign of adversity is honorable to so many posters.
I fail to see how what the paladin did in this situation would be classed as unlawful or dishonorable. If you are part of the group and know the situation that might be a different story.
You can only see the situation from the side of the 8 year old summoner.It seems like the source is unreliable. The only person who gets to make a judgment call in this situation is this groups GM.
You are wrong Gignere, only a handful of the gods who have paladins care so much about that in order to put that in their oaths, if you want you can check the paladin oaths yourself.
Also no you are wrong, the paladin's action weren't unlawful or dishonorable, he chose to leave the room and don't do what a red dragon told him to do in order to increase the chances of survival of his party.
Considering the circumstances it was an action that doesn't make the paladin fall, also what if the summoner died? at 12th level the money for a raise dead and a couple of restorations are easy.
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I fail to see how what the paladin did in this situation would be classed as unlawful or not honorable.
You can only see the situation from the side of the 8 year old summoner.It seems like the source is unreliable. The only person who gets to make a judgment call in this situation is this groups GM.
This, plus additional ranting about how Loyal Good isn't Loyal Dumb.
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There are dozens of threads on these boards from people complaining that their PC was under a Misdirection, or Undetectable Alignment effect, but still had a bad run-in with a paladin, and that's not fair, because they should be able to do whatever they like and the paladin can't stop them unless they radiate evil and I want him to fall but my GM won't do anything about it so I'm writing here so I can get some strangers to agree with me so I can throw it in his face and if they don't make him fall I'll hold my breath until I go blue and you think I won't but I will and you'll see and then you'll be sorry.....
The best part? This actually makes a lot more sense than the original post!
@Gignere
Ok first of all the lying part isn't true for all paladins, the paladins of torag can lie under some circumstances.
Also he didn't left them behind, he left the room in order to protect them from himself, and a paladin of iomidae or of serenrae or of torag if he has given his word, would have a problem taking this action.
I think that for some reason you think that all paladins should be somewhat that in these forums is called lawfull stupid, well i can see a paladins being like that but i don't see that as a requirement for being a paladin, from a good reading of the oaths the only paladins that come close to that (but not really be there) are paladins of iomidae and of shelyn (for different reasons).
Ok if I was the paladin I would have knocked out both the summoner and the cleric first. -4 for subdual damage is not hard. How is that lawful stupid?
Why would you do that?
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Lying is dishonorable and something no paladin can do but leaving behind someone who has been fighting with you for 10+ levels (and probably saved your skin a few times because he is a cleric) against an evil dragon is totally honorable because after he gets eaten you can just easily resurrect them and cast restoration.
Gotcha.
Remember the paladin left behind not just an 8 year old but another level 12 cleric. One that is not a new character to the party.
You're a paladin, you can't let the dragon do this, it's against the rules !
The path of a paladin is filled with hard dilemmas they can't always resolve by running and smiting evil. Crawling in a room filled with a dangerous poison turning allies against themselves, while your allies already are affected, killing each other, and a big dragon is in front of you ? Yeah, stay in the room ! It's pure loyal good behavior, with just the needed stupidity and lack of foreseeing, but heroic nonetheless. Until you fail your save next round, kill the 8-year old boy yourself and get eaten by the dragon. If you effectively can't do anything at all that will save someone right now, then find a way to correct the situation, try to save your friends, and live with the idea you were helpless to your companions. Also, I'm pretty sure your cleric friend, if he walks next to a paladin, would like you to leave and find a solution instead of dying ; the same way you would do if you were in this situation, because you are good and altruist, isn't it ?Suicidal heroic paladins make perfect young, low level martyrs, but poor adventurers. Dead paladin less efficient than living one, blabla.