Actually if they simply took away the trait bonus to hit people would have whined less
This.
Meh..I'll be invoking my right as DM in home games to do as I like with the rules and will be retaining the original version.After all Paizo are not going to send compliance officers round to your home table
PFS? I wouldn't have taken the trait anyway.
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So wait, the fluff argument is that your family heirloom is mundane... yet you didn't take rich parents so obviously you don't have rich parents.... and yet you expected your poor farmer heritage to afford a masterwork weapon? What?
As far as mechanics go yeah it is about the power of a trait now. Not that my group uses traits.
I think they should have kept the masterwork part in, and just have the player pay for the normal weapon cost, other than that this version is more balanced. it doesn't really find use in niche cases with exotic weapons either since you can choose your benefit, the boost on CMB seems very nice. I can see many of my characters using it actually.
So wait, the fluff argument is that your family heirloom is mundane... yet you didn't take rich parents so obviously you don't have rich parents.... and yet you expected your poor farmer heritage to afford a masterwork weapon?
No, we expect the blade which has been handed down from father to son (or mother to daughter, whatever) for generations to be a weapon worthy of the hero far back in our family line.
So wait, the fluff argument is that your family heirloom is mundane... yet you didn't take rich parents so obviously you don't have rich parents.... and yet you expected your poor farmer heritage to afford a masterwork weapon? What?
If you come from an average family and get the pass-me-down its one M/Work.
If you had rich parents you can lob down the shop and buy yourself THREE nice spangly ones freshly minted.
I believe thats the difference :P
No, we expect the blade which has been handed down from father to son (or mother to daughter, whatever) for generations to be a weapon worthy of the hero far back in our family line.
An heirloom weapon is more likely some long dead peasants state issued weapon that he handed down after surviving a war, not the blade of a legendary hero.
If you come from an average family and get the pass-me-down its one M/Work.If you had rich parents you can lob down the shop and buy yourself THREE nice spangly ones freshly minted.
I believe that's the difference :P
You could just fluff the rich parents one to be an heirloom weapon, except you get the +1 because your ancestors could afford a good sword not because your poor farmer/tavern owner dad thought he should train you with it.
The rich dun fight wars, they dress up in their fancy weapon and armor and yell charge.
An heirloom weapon is more likely some long dead peasants state issued weapon that he handed down after surviving a war, not the blade of a legendary hero.
Not that I want to be rude, but thats some punitive WBL you must be running in your campaign world when 'legendary heroes' cant even get a +1 or better weapon. Harsh that my endgame loot would be Masterwork weapon and its not even Cold Iron :p
What do the players start with, rags for clothes and a pointy stick they found on the way to town?
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So wait, the fluff argument is that your family heirloom is mundane... yet you didn't take rich parents so obviously you don't have rich parents.... and yet you expected your poor farmer heritage to afford a masterwork weapon?No, we expect the blade which has been handed down from father to son (or mother to daughter, whatever) for generations to be a weapon worthy of the hero far back in our family line.
Hopeful thought: Perhaps this change is coming just before Ultimate Combat presents a more robust approach for that theme of "this sword is the sword of my father's father and it will see me through all my trials".
Emphasis on hopeful. :)
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Rich Parents ia another broken trait, hope it gets scraped too. Traits should be a simple situational bonus, not ammo for power gamers.
Unless you stop playing after level 2, no power gamer worth that title would chose Rich Parents instead of a trait that grants a bonus that is relevant for the whole career.
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Unless you stop playing after level 2, no power gamer worth that title would chose Rich Parents instead of a trait that grants a bonus that is relevant for the whole career.
Rich Parents ia another broken trait, hope it gets scraped too. Traits should be a simple situational bonus, not ammo for power gamers.
Being able to afford multipul MC gear at level 1 is power gameing. Really traits are only good for the first 5 levels, after that the small bonuses become insignificant.
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Being able to afford multipul MC gear at level 1 is power gameing. Really traits are only good for the first 5 levels, after that the small bonuses become insignificant.Unless you stop playing after level 2, no power gamer worth that title would chose Rich Parents instead of a trait that grants a bonus that is relevant for the whole career.
Rich Parents ia another broken trait, hope it gets scraped too. Traits should be a simple situational bonus, not ammo for power gamers.
Not really. In fact, there are several traits that only get useful after fifth level. You just have to chose the right ones.
Not that I want to be rude, but thats some punitive WBL you must be running in your campaign world when 'legendary heroes' cant even get a +1 or better weapon. Harsh that my endgame loot would be Masterwork weapon and its not even Cold Iron :p
What do the players start with, rags for clothes and a pointy stick they found on the way to town?
Your ancestors aren't legendary hero's, that's your job, your characters kid is gonna get one helluva +5 holy hand me down, you on the other hand get your great great great great great grandfathers state issued war weapon that he technically stole after the battle because it belonged to the state. If your background says your father was a legendary hero then no DM in his right mind would let you have his weapon at first level, you don't become legendary with a masterwork longsword.
It's an interesting change, because it surely means that it will be taken only for specific builds rather than concepts (or ubiquitously for the previous version). If you want a tripping fighter then you take it or a AoO fighter, have to get someone to cast it into a MW then start enchanting it. Which seems rather convoluted.
But the thing is there is seems to be a few people who would like rules for an Heirloom type weapon that increases with PC level (of course this should not be a trait but an option).
Being able to afford multipul MC gear at level 1 is power gameing. Really traits are only good for the first 5 levels, after that the small bonuses become insignificant.Unless you stop playing after level 2, no power gamer worth that title would chose Rich Parents instead of a trait that grants a bonus that is relevant for the whole career.
Rich Parents ia another broken trait, hope it gets scraped too. Traits should be a simple situational bonus, not ammo for power gamers.
Not at all.
+2 initiative is good throughout the levels. +1 on a saving throw is always relevant unless your saves are so high or low that rolling a 2 passes or rolling a 19 fails. Etc.
Even some of the +1 skill traits remain useful. For instance, for a class that doesn't have perception as a class skill, that trait provides a total +4 bonus that stacks with all other bonuses. +4 perception is pretty much always relevant.
There are of course traits that aren't relevant throughout the game, but there certainly are traits that remain useful.
Your ancestors aren't legendary hero's, that's your job, your characters kid is gonna get one helluva +5 holy hand me down,
Which is cool, but the trait never said anything about legendary heroes, that's something YOU brought up :)
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I thought the non-masterwork part was unnecessary given the other changes. I just have a hard time imagining a non masterwork weapon surviving in a condition that anyone would consider it an heirloom weapon; closer to the truth for most normal weapons would be an at partially rusted piece of crud that is good for hanging over the fire place and not much else, except for emergencies.
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Trash Loot
Trait
"Setting off for adventure, you took your old Pa's bent sword or half mouldy/'dented and pitted to all heck' armour with you; you look like a joke, and people laugh at your povo welfare line items, but they work well enough"
You begin play with any one mundane weapon or armour, and you only pay half the listed price for that item. Whilst the item is visibly in your possession you take a -1 trait modifier to Diplomacy or Intimidate, your choice.
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I don't understand the confusion. you interpretation would requite the wording "Specific type of weapon". This is specific weapon, meaning unique. If you refer to the Specific Weapon part in the magic weapons area. Flame Tongue is not just any magic longsword, as it has powers that are not able to be replicated with the normal magical weapon abilities. Specific used by itself is singular. Specific teacher, specific car, specific tree. Without any other modifying words, it can't represent more than a single object
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stuff
---FAQ question: the words "specific weapon” in the Heirloom weapon trait mean that the trait bonus apply only to that single weapon but not to other weapons of that type, or they apply to all the weapons of that type (i.e. to all rapiers for example)?
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My fix would have been to allow prof in any one single weapon like before. Allow the character to start with that non-masterwork weapon but include some fluff that allows the weapon to be enchanted at +300 GP normal cost as long as long as the bearer participated in the ritual to enchant it. This gets rid of the trait/MW/WF stacking early and eliminates any gold savings in fact it delays the MW. Until the character can afford 2300 GP.
Many of us out here have an heirloom weapon in real life - I, for instance, inherited the rifle issued to my Grandfather during his service with the U.S. Army during World War II.
By no means is it masterwork in quality, and it has only survived the many decades since it was issued to (and then technically stolen by) my Grandpa because he took care of it - his intent to pass it down to another generation keeping the weapon in fine condition until it passed to my Uncle, who likewise took care of it with the intent of passing it down just as it had passed to him.
I take care of it as well, and could haul it out and fire a few rounds at any time I felt the urge because it is still functional.
See, you seem to be looking at the situation with cause and effect reversed - the family doesn't keep the weapon to pass it down through generations because it is valuable; they do so for sentimental reasons and the item eventually becomes valuable.
My Grandfather's M1 Garand is valuable today because it has sentimental value to my family, or value to a collector, not because it is a better functioning weapon than those more available in the modern age.
Anyways, here is where my rant about the fluff of why a weapon becomes an heirloom...
The rifle is still functional, but it really something you would want to routinely have to rely on to kill someone before they could kill you? I, too, have a family heirloom in the form of a rifle from either the civil war or earlier. That doesn't mean that if I were to take up the life of mercanery that I would be interested in relying on it in the field.
Sigh...I'll have to discuss this with my gm/hubby. I had taken this Trait to represent her late brother's mw katana my ninja had been given by her father after she slew the rival clan samurai who had killed the brother. She had also been exiled as part of the resolution to the ongoing clan feud.
We were still debating if the trait, coupled with the fact that ninja get katana prof (which dm/hubby ruled did not include use as exotic) did, in fact, allow her to use it as exotic.
Guess this resolves that issue.
I checked out and dl'd the errata to see if a different issue had been resolved though. Take a look at the chart on page 21 of the first printing, under 'Food, Drink, and Lodging'.
Tea - 2cp/cup - 1/2 lb
Tea, ceremonial - 4cp/cup - 1/2 lb
One cup of tea weighs 1/2 lb? As a regular tea drinker, I'd have to say either that's an error or that's some very weak tea.
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Sigh...I'll have to discuss this with my gm/hubby. I had taken this Trait to represent her late brother's mw katana my ninja had been given by her father after she slew the rival clan samurai who had killed the brother. She had also been exiled as part of the resolution to the ongoing clan feud.
We were still debating if the trait, coupled with the fact that ninja get katana prof (which dm/hubby ruled did not include use as exotic) did, in fact, allow her to use it as exotic.
Guess this resolves that issue.
I checked out and dl'd the errata to see if a different issue had been resolved though. Take a look at the chart on page 21 of the first printing, under 'Food, Drink, and Lodging'.
Tea - 2cp/cup - 1/2 lb
Tea, ceremonial - 4cp/cup - 1/2 lbOne cup of tea weighs 1/2 lb? As a regular tea drinker, I'd have to say either that's an error or that's some very weak tea.
16 cups in a gallon. 1 gallon of water weighs 8 pounds. 1/2 pound per cup. I am sure the tea leaves add trivial weight.
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Ugh. Terrible.
I start to dread these threads; every new errata seems to be a bunch of nerfs, most of which aren't necessary; nine out of ten seem to be the results of whiny chumps who interpret anything that's actually useful to be broken. HW was too good, and needed to be toned down, but it was taken too far in this case; the restriction to non-exotic weapons is especially lame.
It seems the trend we saw with the spiked chain continues: it went from being too powerful to being not powerful enough to warrent spending a feat to use it. It would be nice if the wonderful folks at paizo find a middle ground with all this tedious nerfing. Please and thank you.
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The rifle is still functional, but it really something you would want to routinely have to rely on to kill someone before they could kill you? I, too, have a family heirloom in the form of a rifle from either the civil war or earlier. That doesn't mean that if I were to take up the life of mercanery that I would be interested in relying on it in the field.
Hmm. A properly cared for M1?
M1 Garand
Fires a 30 caliber (30-06) round. Muzzle velocity 2800 fps. Effective range 400 yards.
It was in service for 21 years in the US Army as the standard issue rifle.
It saw service in WWII, Korea, Arab-Israeli war, Indochina, Vietnam, Suez, Cambodia and Northern Ireland.
Described by Patton as "the greatest implement of battle ever devised".
Nope, not something you'd want to rely upon to kill people.
16 cups in a gallon. 1 gallon of water weighs 8 pounds. 1/2 pound per cup. I am sure the tea leaves add trivial weight.I checked out and dl'd the errata to see if a different issue had been resolved though. Take a look at the chart on page 21 of the first printing, under 'Food, Drink, and Lodging'.
Tea - 2cp/cup - 1/2 lb
Tea, ceremonial - 4cp/cup - 1/2 lbOne cup of tea weighs 1/2 lb? As a regular tea drinker, I'd have to say either that's an error or that's some very weak tea.
Yes, once brewed. But I thought it was listing how much the *packet of tea leaves* weighed.
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The rifle is still functional, but it really something you would want to routinely have to rely on to kill someone before they could kill you? I, too, have a family heirloom in the form of a rifle from either the civil war or earlier. That doesn't mean that if I were to take up the life of mercanery that I would be interested in relying on it in the field.
Hmm. A properly cared for M1?
M1 Garand
Fires a 30 caliber (30-06) round. Muzzle velocity 2800 fps. Effective range 400 yards.It was in service for 21 years in the US Army as the standard issue rifle.
It saw service in WWII, Korea, Arab-Israeli war, Indochina, Vietnam, Suez, Cambodia and Northern Ireland.
Described by Patton as "the greatest implement of battle ever devised".
Nope, not something you'd want to rely upon to kill people.
Sounds like a masterwork weapon to me.
Being able to afford multipul MC gear at level 1 is power gameing. Really traits are only good for the first 5 levels, after that the small bonuses become insignificant.Unless you stop playing after level 2, no power gamer worth that title would chose Rich Parents instead of a trait that grants a bonus that is relevant for the whole career.
Rich Parents ia another broken trait, hope it gets scraped too. Traits should be a simple situational bonus, not ammo for power gamers.
I disagree, there are lots of traits that are meaningful all the way through level 20. For instance the traits that add skills as class skills. That is useful for many characters throughout their whole career.
Traits dont HAVE to be so situational they stop being useful after level 5, its just a matter of designing and choosing the right ones.
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Being able to afford multipul MC gear at level 1 is power gameing. Really traits are only good for the first 5 levels, after that the small bonuses become insignificant.Unless you stop playing after level 2, no power gamer worth that title would chose Rich Parents instead of a trait that grants a bonus that is relevant for the whole career.
Rich Parents ia another broken trait, hope it gets scraped too. Traits should be a simple situational bonus, not ammo for power gamers.
I disagree, there are lots of traits that are meaningful all the way through level 20. For instance the traits that add skills as class skills. That is useful for many characters throughout their whole career.
Traits dont HAVE to be so situational they stop being useful after level 5, its just a matter of designing and choosing the right ones.
I agree.
Getting some extra money at first level (which becomes absolutely insignificant at higher levels) versus getting a benefit that will help you through your entire career? That's what power gaming is called now? Come on, guys, that's just not reasonable. If you play all your games at level 1, sure, that's sound - but past that it becomes utterly meaningless to get an extra 800gp (assume an average of a 100gp budget). At level 20 (the end-point for most optimization) you have 880,000gp - 800gp is a drop in the ocean.
No thanks, I'd rather take something actually useful, like say Warrior of Old (initiative bonuses never get old!) or something along those lines.
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RPG Superstar 2009 Top 32, 2010 Top 8
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Keeping it a Masterwork weapon (and open to exotic) would have been more balanced (IMHO)
Or making it a normal weapon but keeping the trait bonus to hit with all weapons of the type "Yup, been practicing wit dis long sword since I was no taller dan a slip. Watch this!"
At least now we know why they're heirloom weapons.
"Your Daddy started adventuring with this long sword, just like his daddy did."
"Wow, did he slay dragons with it?"
"Oh, no dear! After he hit second level he put this sword away and got himself a masterwork blade. That's why it's so shiny!"
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You are not using the current accepted rules for PFS. Yes, that is called cheating.Im not cheating, the character was established before the change for me to change it again would ruin the character ... The Errata went from maybe reasonable to completely unnecessary..
Probably the more important issue would be fairness, the trait was strong enough to be built around, and the character should probably get a re-build.
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Ok, time for a little honesty. First, anyone who says HW was not overpowered AS A TRAIT, is not being honest with themselves. Also, the argument I have heard several times here is that it is not meaningful in later levels. This is also untrue. As a fighter, I would much more prefer to have a customized magical sword that fits exactly to my character build fighting style than rely on random loot producing such. People are correct in stating that this TRAIT is almost equal to 2 feats (weapon focus and EWP). But wait, it gets even better! The trait bonus stacks w/ WF so you get both.
My 1st level PFS fighter, using Power Attack was +8 to hit and doing 1d8+6 damage, which means I just waded through all opponents in Tier 1-2 mods. Also, this trait was being taken by just about every martial character and even many non-martial characters. If thats not a sign of an overpowered trait, then I can't fathom what would be the criteria for overpowered.
All of that being said however, the erratta went to far. The limitation to simple and martial was too much IMO.
Oh, and I forgot to add... HW is an equipment trait, so you gain all those combat advantages and still can take another combat trait to boot!!
Ok, time for a little honesty. First, anyone who says HW was not overpowered AS A TRAIT, is not being honest with themselves. Also, the argument I have heard several times here is that it is not meaningful in later levels. This is also untrue. As a fighter, I would much more prefer to have a customized magical sword that fits exactly to my character build fighting style than rely on random loot producing such. People are correct in stating that this TRAIT is almost equal to 2 feats (weapon focus and EWP). But wait, it gets even better! The trait bonus stacks w/ WF so you get both.
My 1st level PFS fighter, using Power Attack was +8 to hit and doing 1d8+6 damage, which means I just waded through all opponents in Tier 1-2 mods. Also, this trait was being taken by just about every martial character and even many non-martial characters. If thats not a sign of an overpowered trait, then I can't fathom what would be the criteria for overpowered.
All of that being said however, the erratta went to far. The limitation to simple and martial was too much IMO.
I haven't seen very many people saying that it should have been completely left alone. Even most of those who didn't see a problem with the origional version, myself included, don't seem to have a problem with them making some changes. The concern is the extent of the changes.
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You are not using the current accepted rules for PFS. Yes, that is called cheating.Im not cheating, the character was established before the change for me to change it again would ruin the character ... The Errata went from maybe reasonable to completely unnecessary..
It's about the least amount of cheating one can possibly have. It's extremely easy to change character sheets and chronicles between sessions.
Lot of PFS GMs don't even use errata. Lord knows how many still uses the original Smite, and the original Growth domain.
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RPG Superstar 2009 Top 32, 2010 Top 8
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Lot of PFS GMs don't even use errata. Lord knows how many still uses the original Smite, and the original Growth domain.
Since it's a matter of 'fairness' in the shared world, the players and GMs should be working together to incorperate up to date rules. 'lesser cheating' vs 'greater cheating' is still 'cheating'.
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You know, I think I'd have preferred to see something like this as a trait: “[special] Weapon: You have acquired a masterwork weapon (paying only the standard gp cost for the weapon). This weapon must be one that you have proficency in, either through race, class, or a feat. This can represent a gift from your family or a patron or a discovery that set you on your adventuring career. If the weapon has any oher special attributes (such as being made from a special material), they must also be paid for when you acquire the trait.”
This would have fit my character concept well.
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I believe that Heirloom Weapon needed fixing, but that this isn't the right fix. The changes mean that, to any character without access to the Masterwork Transformation spell (e.g. PFS characters), the Trait is indeed worthless past roughly 3rd level.
I would have re-written the Trait to be as follows:
Your character carries a weapon that has been handed down from generation to generation within your family. When selecting this trait, choose one of the following benefits:
Proficiency with that specific weapon, but not others of its type (simple, martial or exotic)
Masterwork Quality (pay only the basic cost of the weapon)
+1 Trait bonus to attacks made with that specific weapon
+2 Trait bonus to one kind of combat maneuver made with that specific weapon
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You know, I think I'd have preferred to see something like this as a trait: “[special] Weapon: You have acquired a masterwork weapon (paying only the standard gp cost for the weapon). This weapon must be one that you have proficency in, either through race, class, or a feat. This can represent a gift from your family or a patron or a discovery that set you on your adventuring career. If the weapon has any oher special attributes (such as being made from a special material), they must also be paid for when you acquire the trait.”
This would have fit my character concept well.
That's worse than Rich Parents. And as I mentioned earlier, even Rich Parents isn't very good past the first levels.
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The trait was so good that it became a "must take" a very good sign that it was far from balance with the other traits. It was a standard part of any munchkin weapon user's toolbox. The only downside about this revision was that it wasn't the way the trait was released originally.
Ok, let me review. It went from a trait that gave you a free MW Weapon (Rich parents gives you easily 3, and you can sell back the weapons afterwards when they are no more needed), a +1 bonus to hit all the time, and proficiency with the weapon.
Granted, that rocks. The trait gave you a weapon that defined you, and gave you good reason to spend ridiculous amounts of money enchanting it (by selling found loot for half its value or less and then paying full price for the enchant, plus the waiting time).
Then, you could lose the weapon, have it stolen, broken, shattered, confiscated, etc, and completely lose that trait forever.
Not only can you still easily lose your trait bonus forever, but that bonus is now only either a proficiency with a lame weapon most classes meant for combat can already use anyways (except for those poor Inquisitors), a +1 bonus to hit on AoOs or a +2 on combat manoeuvers made with weapons (and both are useless on most ennemies after level 6 since they are all large or bigger anyways).
Now, this traits is only worth considering (barely) for Inquisitors, reach fighters with combat reflexes and maneuver monks. For any other class, and any other situation, it is utter crap.
Alternatively I can get a freakin' +2 to initiative that applies all the time, stacks with everything and that nothing can ever remove.
Or a trait that could also permanently buff one of your saves (preferably your weakest save) by +1, (and with the relatively slow scaling of saves and saves DC's a +1 is a pretty relevant bonus).
Or a new class skill (preferably one of those nifty super useful skill you could really use like Diplomacy, UMD, or relevant knowledge skill (that's equivalent to a +4 bonus by the way, BETTER than skill focus, wich is a feat, and that you can still take anyways).
Now, you have a choice of a permanent bonus to something that comes in play quite often, or a an extremely situational bonus (and temporary unless you pay good money to upgrade the weapon) that you can lose in a flash for ever.
I don't know, but in the groups where I played, heirloom weapon would appear as a trait only rarely (generally taken by an Inquisitor as a get-out-of-suck card, or by the fighter to play around with an exotic weapon). But it seems every character and their mother was [i] bullied often as a child, but never quite developped an offensive response[i], is a Warrior of Old, or have Elven Reflexes. Oh, and most tried to take two of those, before I rolled eyes at them saying "Silly player, same typed bonuses do not stack".
That trait was nerfed into oblivion and is now drastically inferior to pretty much all other traits. It was already not a "trait so good everybody must take it", now nobody in their right mind would even look at it twice.
As a GM, I don't like the change. I didn't think it overbalanced the game and, as my players generally have to write a backstory to fit their traits,I think it was fine.
Now, it's not really worth it unless you do a lot of CMB...
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I'd considered taking the original trait, but never actually did. Now, I'd not even consider it.
They didn't just use the nerf bat, they used the nerf bazooka.
I personally think my only issue with the new version is that it specifies a simple or martial weapon.
If it allowed you to simply choose a weapon, I think it'd be perfect.