Everyone saw it coming, the question is how much damage does the gunslinger do when compared to an archer with a bow? The answer is almost always considerably less. So sure the gunslinger always hits, but a hit doesnt mean much if you are doing relatively little damage.
im probably gonna houserule guns to hell. drop the whole thouch ac completly and just increase the die of damage for guns to make them on par
with a bow ill probbaly do more math first but most likely it will go like 2d6 for pistol 2d8 for musket.
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I'm running Curse of the Crimson Throne and the party is now 14th level. The gunslinger is in no way over powered. He is carrying 1 rifle and 3 revolvers. He can get 2 shots off in a round, dropping the weapons and then 2 more the next round and then spend some time reloading the next couple of rounds. The bleed ability is nice especially since the gunslinger doesn't get that many attacks.
The archer gets 5 attacks each round and does much more damage. (That is counting boots of speed.)
Please play the gunslinger as is for a few games and then see what happens. I thought it was overpowered too until the first game session. They just don't get that many attacks to cause the 'over powered' cry.
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Not every creature is evil. So that's a conditional statement.
Write up an archer and test it your self. The archer comes out ahead.
My gunslinger and archer have been together for 6 sessions now. The archer turns monsters into red mist. The gunslinger hurts them and makes them bleed. Hell the archer killed the demilich practically by herself. (Up until she got her soul sucked but she did 85-90% of the damage to kill it.)
Everyone saw it coming, the question is how much damage does the gunslinger do when compared to an archer with a bow? The answer is almost always considerably less. So sure the gunslinger always hits, but a hit doesnt mean much if you are doing relatively little damage.Relatively little damage?
try 32 on the very bottom side of damage - if he rolls all 1's with the 4d8's that he uses
and 84 damage on the top side - he has holy bulletsWhat gets me is the fact that they cannot miss.
My guy has +22 on his first attackhe has to roll a 1 to miss, and that makes the odds stacked
32 damage is very little at level 13. The archer in my game will easly do over a hundred damage a round. If I read what you are saying write, he will average 46 damage a turn. The characters who ARENT combat focused in my level 11 game do more damage then that on average.
Look dont get me wrong, I dont like the gun rules that have been stapled to the gunslinger, but the gunslinger isnt overpowered. It just doesnt fit with the rest of the attacking options in the game.
Everyone saw it coming, the question is how much damage does the gunslinger do when compared to an archer with a bow? The answer is almost always considerably less. So sure the gunslinger always hits, but a hit doesnt mean much if you are doing relatively little damage.
I don't really buy that because of their Dex --> Damage ability. Because they can add their dex mod to damage, they're likely to hit just as hard, if not harder, than a composite bow. All they will lack are the fighter only damage boosts such as weapon specialization and training. Those fighter boosts add a decent amount of extra damage, but the gunslinger will still hit very hard without them. The archer will do more damage (but miss more), but not "considerably" more.
I'm running Curse of the Crimson Throne and the party is now 14th level. The gunslinger is in no way over powered. He is carrying 1 rifle and 3 revolvers. He can get 2 shots off in a round, dropping the weapons and then 2 more the next round and then spend some time reloading the next couple of rounds. The bleed ability is nice especially since the gunslinger doesn't get that many attacks.
The archer gets 5 attacks each round and does much more damage. (That is counting boots of speed.)
Please play the gunslinger as is for a few games and then see what happens. I thought it was overpowered too until the first game session. They just don't get that many attacks to cause the 'over powered' cry.
You're level 14? Lightning Reload (Level 11) and Rapid Reload feat allows a gunslinger to reload a barrel as a free-action, just like an archer. You now may have 5 attack per round (with boots of speed).
Everyone saw it coming, the question is how much damage does the gunslinger do when compared to an archer with a bow? The answer is almost always considerably less. So sure the gunslinger always hits, but a hit doesnt mean much if you are doing relatively little damage.Relatively little damage?
try 32 on the very bottom side of damage - if he rolls all 1's with the 4d8's that he uses
and 84 damage on the top side - he has holy bulletsWhat gets me is the fact that they cannot miss.
My guy has +22 on his first attackhe has to roll a 1 to miss, and that makes the odds stacked
An archer can do that easily at level 7. This guy needs to be 6 levels higher to do that.
Not overpowered. Touch AC is the bone thrown to them to make them compete with archers.
So use monsters with high Touch ACs?
Or ones that he *does not want* to be within 30' of?
Or things that fly further than 30' away and shoot at him with bows?
Or use Blur / Displacement?
Or sunder his weapons with a barbarian breaker?
Or use greater invisibility?
Or don't have 15 minute work days so he runs out of Grit? You know, one big encounter to start the day out (and to use up lots of Grit), two small ones, then another big one. From what I remember, he needs to use up Grit to load as a free action.
Or use any other myriad ways to counter it?
Nope, an archer can't roll a 2 and do small amounts of damage at close range.
Can a gunslinger roll a 2 against a creature more than 30' away and still hit reliably for his small amounts of damage?
Everything I've seen implies that a gunslinger trades raw power for versatility and options.
The crux of your argument for why they're overpowered is that they can always hit within 30'. This is to make them on par with straight archers, as well as because it makes sense. It should always be against touch AC in my opinion, but I concede that limiting it is a good thing for balance.
Is magic missile over powered? It can always hit for small amounts of damage at 230 feet at level 13.
Everyone saw it coming, the question is how much damage does the gunslinger do when compared to an archer with a bow? The answer is almost always considerably less. So sure the gunslinger always hits, but a hit doesnt mean much if you are doing relatively little damage.I don't really buy that because of their Dex --> Damage ability. Because they can add their dex mod to damage, they're likely to hit just as hard, if not harder, than a composite bow. All they will lack are the fighter only damage boosts such as weapon specialization and training. Those fighter boosts add a decent amount of extra damage, but the gunslinger will still hit very hard without them. The archer will do more damage (but miss more), but not "considerably" more.
They also lack an easy path to multiple attacks, and many shot (which makes a huge difference). Untill mid levels levels a gunslinger using the normal rules is firing at best once a round. By level 6 the archer is firing 3 times with the first shot doing double damage. The archer fighter will do dramatically more damage because of this.
They also lack an easy path to multiple attacks, and many shot (which makes a huge difference). Untill mid levels levels a gunslinger using the normal rules is firing at best once a round. By level 6 the archer is firing 3 times with the first shot doing double damage. The archer fighter will do dramatically more damage because of this.
Granted it is an challenge but there are ways around it like alchemical rounds or pepper boxes. And by level 11 the problem disappears completely (Lightning Reload and Rapid Reload), but I agree that the archer has the advantage until 11 (and at 11+ the balance simply smooths out with the archer still ahead).
That is the problem with these discussions, they always depend on context and situation. You can argue that the archer is over powered compared to the gunslinger and that is true at low levels, but the opposite may become true at really high levels considering most high CR monsters have little to no touch defense. It also depends on distance, positioning, etc.
I would say that the archer is better at all levels but the gap is quite close the higher level the two are.
EDIT: I would also hope/wish Paizo would move Lightning Reload to level 6 instead of 11. Considering PFS and most APs do not go above level 12 or so, waiting until 11 for the ability to do what an archer does for free is a bit steep. For those that play only until level 12, Lightning Reload is almost as useless as a level 20 capstone; they look cool on paper, but how often are they really used in play?
Granted it is an challenge but there are ways around it like alchemical rounds or pepper boxes. And by level 11 the problem disappears completely (Lightning Reload and Rapid Reload), but I agree that the archer has the advantage until 11 (and at 11+ the balance simply smooths out with the archer still ahead).
That is the problem with these discussions, they always depend on context and situation. You can argue that the archer is over powered compared to the gunslinger and that is true at low levels, but the opposite may become true at really high levels considering most high CR monsters have little to no touch defense. It also depends on distance, positioning, etc.
I would say that the archer is better at all levels but the gap is quite close the higher level the two are.
If the problem is the gunslinger is handcuffed to the god aweful firearms rules. He can suck for the first 11 levels of his career (which is all or most of it in the majority of games). Saying the problem evens out at 11 is meaningless. No one will play through the first 11 levels. And the fact that the gunslinger has to pay 2 feats at level 11 (rapid reload and signature deed) just to not completely suck means it isnt a solution, its a feat tax on a feat starved class.
And even at really high levels, the gunslinger is not superior to the fighter, the chance to hit against standard AC's is still very high for the archer fighter, and yes the gunslinger will only miss on a 1 but he isnt doing anywhere near the damage of a high level archer, even when you average out the chance to hit.
There was a thread way back in the begining of PFRPG with an archer fighter core only putting out more then 250dmg per round against a balor. A gunslinger will never touch that.
And even at really high levels, the gunslinger is not superior to the fighter, the chance to hit against standard AC's is still very high for the archer fighter, and yes the gunslinger will only miss on a 1 but he isnt doing anywhere near the damage of a high level archer, even when you average out the chance to hit.
There was a thread way back in the begining of PFRPG with an archer fighter core only putting out more then 250dmg per round against a balor. A gunslinger will never touch that.
I don't dispute the facts/numbers. I would ask you, if it is not too much trouble, to summarize what abilities and factors allow the archer fighter to out perform the gunslinger by such a margin? I know weapon specialization and weapon training are factors, but what else is there that the gunslinger can not access? I mostly play casters so I am a bit ignorant on this subject.
Try a gunslinger with revolver's.
12 shots before a reload, and let me ask this, is each cartridge a reload or does he have 1 reload per gun?
Fray does not even need revolvers (which are not assumed for generic Pathfinder). She is level 14 so she should have access to Lightning Reload and Rapid Reload. There is no excuse post level 11 for not getting your full attacks.
And the fact that the gunslinger has to pay 2 feats at level 11 (rapid reload and signature deed) just to not completely suck means it isnt a solution, its a feat tax on a feat starved class.
Just to clarify, as of Gunslinger round 2 they no longer need signature deed for Lightning Reload. As long as they have at least 1 grit point remaining they may use the deed. So it is now only a 1 feat tax, not 2.
I don't dispute the facts/numbers. I would ask you, if it is not too much trouble, to summarize what abilities and factors allow the archer fighter to out perform the gunslinger by such a margin? I know weapon specialization and weapon training are factors, but what else is there that the gunslinger can not access? I mostly play casters so I am a bit ignorant on this subject.
Certainly, here
The big one besides the ones you mention is many shot. But also the fact that the gunslinger is fairly feat starved where as the fighter has an overabundance for things like the critical feat line, which adds alot of damage potential.
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My archer must not have been doing something right. He has an oath bow and the most damage he can do - with a full out attack is 1d8+4 per attack.
Are you guys going straight archer or did anyone go into arcane archer.
The damage of an archer comes from the many attacks he gets and the static bonuses. I usually speak of archers as a Bard archer, since that's my experience.
Assume a 16 str and +3 weapon. That's already +6 damage. Now throw in deadly aim. That feat will give anywhere from +2 to +10 damage a shot, depending on level. Let's say that gives +6 damage. We are already at +12 damage per arrow. If you are a fighter, lets say that you have weapon spec and weapon training 2. That's another +4 damage. Now at level 10,you will have 4 arrows. 3 at BAB -2, one at -7. Write the -7 off as a miss and you'll be doing a minimum of 45 damage. At level 10 with a nonoptimized archer.
Now if it was a bard, he could haste / good hope / inspire courage in one round at level seven. So by level 10,he will have 5 attacks per round, doing +3 damage from arcane strike, +4 from inspire courage / good hope. That's +19 damage on 4 attacks that basically will hit, and one attack that might hit. So thats a minimum of 80 damage.
And he's buffed the hell out of his allies.
I don't dispute the facts/numbers. I would ask you, if it is not too much trouble, to summarize what abilities and factors allow the archer fighter to out perform the gunslinger by such a margin? I know weapon specialization and weapon training are factors, but what else is there that the gunslinger can not access? I mostly play casters so I am a bit ignorant on this subject.Certainly, here
The big one besides the ones you mention is many shot. But also the fact that the gunslinger is fairly feat starved where as the fighter has an overabundance for things like the critical feat line, which adds alot of damage potential.
Thank you. I certainly see the feat advantage coming into play (along with fighter only feats).
If I paid attention correctly, I see raw damage differences between fighter and gunslinger at 20 equal to +4 weapon specialization, +4 weapon training, extra attack arrow via manyshot (an insurmountable obstacle for the gunslinger), and 10 DR reduction via greater penetrating strike.
The gunslinger does gain 5 bonus feats and only pays a feat tax once (Rapid Reload). So I think it can get very close, but the fighter obviously wins.
For example, level 20 human gunslinger:
Weapon Focus: Firearm of choice(Human bonus)
Rapid Reload: Firearm of choice (1 HD)
Point Blank Shot (3 HD)
Precise Shot (Gunslinger lvl 4 bonus)
Deadly Aim (5 HD)
Rapid Shot (7 HD)
Weapon Finesse (Gunslinger lvl 8 bonus)
Critical Focus (9 HD)
Improved Precise Shot (11 HD)
Dervish Dance(Gunslinger lvl 12 bonus)
Staggering Critical (13 HD)
Blinding Critical (15 HD)
Improved Initiative(Gunslinger lvl 16 bonus)
Stunning Critical (17 HD)
Iron Will(19 HD)
Quick Draw (Gunslinger lvl 20 bonus)
I hope he is, I'm planning on playing one in our next campaign. :)