Depending on the character there's always:
7. Play dead - Bluff vs Sense motive
It does kinda suck when you know you can't survive another hit and you are prone in front of a baddie... what ARE the choices available to PCs in Pathfinder?-Mhagus
This might not be what you want to hear but, not getting yourself into the type of situation that this will occur is usually a good idea. Trip attacks are typically perform by certain creatures or are more effective when done with particular weapons. Weapons training and appropriate knowledge checks (skill based on type of opponent) are things all adventuring parties have access to so it shouldn't be a huge surprise when trip attacks occur. Knowing ahead of time something like that is possible will usually save your butt in game as you can change tactics. If is is a surprise, either because no one knows the appropriate weapon proficiency or had the skill (I think the DC was 10+HD or CR of creature so you can only make the roll if you are using the skill trained - untrained knowledge rolls can't be made at higher than DC 10)/made the skill check/what have you, part of the game is the "risk" you take as an adventurer. It is also why you get to haul all the loot around and make the big bucks ;) Not to say it doesn't suck, you'd hope you don't get blind sided all the time, but it is a game and occasionally you die in it- or at least you should. It shouldn't always be "safe", at least in my opinion.
As for the options
1) Stand up and move +AoO
Straight forward and most basic
2. Stand up as a swift action (DC35 Acrobat), no AOO.
Not a part of Pathfinder RAW as they haven't gotten into Epic Rules yet. Also note that in the SRD the free stand does not avoid the AoO, it just allows you to stand up as a free action Epic tumbling; Free Stand so probably not what you were expecting.
3. Full Defense as a full round action, no AOO.
Correct, as it takes a move equivalent action to crawl 5', so you just sit there trying to not be hit. Also don't forget the -4 AC penalty vs Melee (or +4 vs Ranged for that matter) for being prone.
4. 5 yard crawl as a move action + AOO.
Yep, crawling at all times provokes AoO's. Use this one in hopes of getting out of the threat range and standing up, not much better than standing up right where you were though in all likelihood.
5. 10 yard full withdraw crawl?, no AOO.
I think the crawling always provoking the AoO's, trumps the Full Withdraw. Actions in Combat - Move Actions - Crawling.
I'm not even sure some of this stuff is "legal." What about:
"Crawl away using acrobat (tumble) as a move action, then standing up as a second move action." I allowed this with a -4 penalty for being on the ground... I also considered -10 penalty or just not allow them to use their dex modifier.
This is grey area so I can only explain why our group ruled the way we did (we sometimes do round robin DM'ing that way the same people don't get stuck all the time not playing. We try to reach a consensus on things like this so the rules don't differ widely from one game to another). As linked earlier crawling says that it always provokes the AoO, to be honest that was probably the real deciding factor. Tumble itself isn't a move action, it is something done while you are doing another move action (moving 20'-30' while walking through a plains doesn't provoke an AoO normally, so this is the type of movement we considered tumbling to be modifying). Originally when it was written you'd move at 1/2 your normal movement to try and "get past" an opponent and if you failed they got the AoO on you (moving half of 5' would take 2 move actions if you were crawling and there are 5' movements that do allow AoO's so there was precedence and so another point against in our discussion). Now with PFRPG, they tossed out the multiple threatened areas (no multiple AoO's with combat reflexes) and the 1/2 movement so it is now, take your base movement and make one check per opponent. With the above and the fact that the DC was 35 to just stand up (and still taking the AoO) for an epic level check we decided that it didn't make much sense to allow a lower DC to avoid the AoO somehow. We thought that prone and crawling were basically significant negatives and should be treated that way. Also you don't lose your dex when prone (unless balancing on ice, a grease spell or something like that), you just get a modifier to AC, as such it theoretically is as easy to tumble out of a threatened area being prone as it is to walk out of it, again it just didn't make sense. I understand your desire to put a penalty to it and we considered it as well, but as there was no precedence for it in the rules already we just settled on "the rules say crawling always provokes an AoO" and called it a day lol.
As for 6 and 6a... A 20 always hits and there are some people in our group that for whatever god forsaken reason can be counted on to get a 20 when it counts so I wouldn't discount that one right away ;)
7 is obviously not an option for all characters but for those who have the skill definitely worth trying!
Quite honestly your best options are to introduce something that blocks AoO's. Total cover definitely blocks AoO's so if the party caster can create some sort of wall (even a 5'x'5 one) it will prevent the opponent from making an AoO, so have the prone player ready or hold an action for the wall to be created. Total concealment does the same (darkness spell works if they don't have darkvision or smoke sticks).
RPG Superstar 2013 Top 4, RPG Superstar 2011 Top 16
|
Even though it's not OGL, the skill tricks from Complete Scoundrel are a really great mechanic. Specifically there are three tricks that are based off Tumble (or Acrobatics now in PF) that allow a character to stand up without risking an AoO, but they're generally limited to 1/encounter. Each trick has a skill rank pre-req and costs 2 skill points to buy. You can only have 1/2 your HD worth of skill tricks and you can only buy one per level.
--I'm gonna Vrock you out! Mamma said Vrock you OUT!
I do think it's a little frustrtaing that you can't do anything to avoid an attack of opportunity when standing up from prone. Particularly since the reason you usually wind up on the ground is because someone tripped you, and they're most likely going to trip you again when they get their attack of opportunity.
Personally, I think your idea of an Acrobat check is the best idea, although I think making an Acrobatics check (DC 20 + opponent's base attack bonus) at a -4 penalty would be better aligned with the rules as written. Meanwhile, I think you could add that a PC can make an Acrobatics check (DC 15 + opponent's base attack bonus) at a -4 penalty to crawl 5 feet without provoking an attack of opportunity. The character, in this case, would still be prone, of course, but at least they can potentially stand up without provoking an attack of opportunity.
By the way, PCs can always cast teleport defensively to get far enough away that they can stand up without worrying about attacks of opportunity.
7 Beg for mercy.
8 Take it lying down.
9 Curl it up into a ball.
10 Cry like a baby.
Several choices possible.
3. Full Defense as a full round action, no AOO.
Isn't this a standard action?
I do think it's a little frustrtaing that you can't do anything to avoid an attack of opportunity when standing up from prone. Particularly since the reason you usually wind up on the ground is because someone tripped you, and they're most likely going to trip you again when they get their attack of opportunity.
Tripping with that AoO wouldn't do anything. A character is prone until he has finished standing up and Attacks of Opportunity happen before provoking action has finished. A character would be prone before the AoO and prone after the AoO. Then he finishes standing up and is no longer prone.
I think this thread might degenerate into "101 things to do when prone" pretty soon.
11. equip a tower shiled and take full cover.
11b. After this, stand up without provoking any Attacks of Opportunity.
3. Full Defense as a full round action, no AOO.Isn't this a standard action?
Yes. If my character gets tripped, either I'll just keep fighting from prone position, or I'll take the Full Defense action before standing up.
Actually we had something along these lines come up recently...
I was playing a wizard under the effects of the Overland Flight spell. We where walking along and the group was attacked by giants. Several of the giants had awesome blow and one of them knocked my character prone (as I had been walking with the group). What happens?
In our case I simply flew up as a withdrawn action, since I don't need to be standing to fly. I spent the rest of the encounter "prone" in flight becuase it wasn't worth my while (at the time) to stand up, instead I kept casting spells and what have you while "prone" (albiet safely out of reach well above everyone's heads).
are you face-up or flipped over?
facing doesn't matter! ;D
Not sure how legal this is, but what typically happens in our campaigns is:
1) Prone character takes his 5-foot step (tuck and roll?) away from creature.
2) Uses Move Action to stand up from prone, which is usually out of the creatures threat area (but not always).
3) Some Standard Action which typically involves casting a spell, drinking a potion, or throwing a missile weapon (if a hand is free)
In the following round the will likely use their 5-foot step to reenter melee, if that is what they want.
I believe its legal cause you can 5-foot step and perform a move action in the same round as long as the movement doesn't actaully involve movement. Am I correct?
1) Prone character takes his 5-foot step (tuck and roll?) away from creature.
...
I believe its legal cause you can 5-foot step and perform a move action in the same round as long as the movement doesn't actaully involve movement. Am I correct?
You can't take a 5' step while prone; you can only crawl 5' as a full round action that provokes an attack of opportunity.
|
RPG Superstar 2013 Top 4, RPG Superstar 2011 Top 16
|
You can't take a 5' step while prone; you can only crawl 5' as a full round action that provokes an attack of opportunity.1) Prone character takes his 5-foot step (tuck and roll?) away from creature.
...
I believe its legal cause you can 5-foot step and perform a move action in the same round as long as the movement doesn't actaully involve movement. Am I correct?
In PF it's only a move action crawl 5' now...
Withdrawing UP isn't a great idea against giants as they can reach from the ground up to 20 feet with no problems. Only your first square is free when withdrawing (though I think it should be like spring attack and you get to choose a target to move away from without AoO's).
--I wanna Vrock. VROCK!
RPG Superstar 2013 Top 32
|
Particularly since the reason you usually wind up on the ground is because someone tripped you, and they're most likely going to trip you again when they get their attack of opportunity.
I run into this one a lot. It bears mentioning, in bold, that you cannot use your attack of opportunity to trip a character who is standing up from prone. The reason being that the AoO happens BEFORE the provoking action is completed. Ergo, you are effectively tripping someone who is already prone. Now, there is nothing to prevent the tripper from tripping you with his next attack, but he cannot simply keep you pinned down forever with AoO trips.
A wizard does not complete his spellcasting before your AoO connects (otherwise he wouldn't have to make a check to complete the spell from taking damage). A person without Imp. Disarm does not disarm you before you can strike at him. Same with trip. Don't fall into this often-misconceived notion of chain-tripping. It isn't legal.
Breakdance.
***
I think I'm going to rule like this for my PCs.1) 35 DC Acrobat to Stand as a swift action (taking an AOO)
2) 15 DC Acrobat + Opponent's BAB + 5 (for being prone) to crawl 5' away as a move action (without AOO)
3) Full Defense
4) Stand up as a move action (taking an AOO)
5) Play dead (Bluff vs. Sense Motive + MOD (MOD to be determined by what the DM thinks the Opponent has seen)
6) Fight with Xbow, Shuriken, Melee Weapons at -4 ATK ROLL
***That about covers the basics?
Sounds good, just don't forget with 6) that Xbow and shuriken (or any ranged weapon for that matter) will provoke AoO's for using them in melee and that being prone gives the character a -4 to AC.
As I mentioned before after we all read (emphasis mine):
Crawling: You can crawl 5 feet as a move action. Crawling incurs attacks of opportunity from any attackers who threaten you at any point of your crawl.
we weren't comfortable with making acrobatics the "escape from all AoO's" that it becomes again. There are few ways to end up prone and many of them actually became harder to do with Pathfinder lowering size adjustments and changing to CMB's so it was reasoned that there should be some sort of "pay-off" for successfully accomplishing at trip attack (you no longer get the extra attack like 3.5 so what else is there really?). To us the statement seemed to cover the twisting, twirling, flipping tumbling crawl as still being a crawl and as such provokes the AoO regardless.
Which doesn't make sense...I'm sorry, if someone I tripped tried to get up, I'm gonna trip them again...it's a stupid rule IMNSHO.
Sense has to take a backseat to playability here, or you make it virtually impossible for someone to stand up in certain situations.
|
I do think it's a little frustrtaing that you can't do anything to avoid an attack of opportunity when standing up from prone. Particularly since the reason you usually wind up on the ground is because someone tripped you, and they're most likely going to trip you again when they get their attack of opportunity.
It's likely already been said, but you can't use another Trip attempt when making an AoO on someone getting up from prone, as they still count as prone when you take your AoO. Similarly, you couldn't disarm someone again when they went to pick up their weapon, the AoO takes place before he gets the weapon.
Particularly since the reason you usually wind up on the ground is because someone tripped you, and they're most likely going to trip you again when they get their attack of opportunity.I run into this one a lot. It bears mentioning, in bold, that you cannot use your attack of opportunity to trip a character who is standing up from prone. The reason being that the AoO happens BEFORE the provoking action is completed. Ergo, you are effectively tripping someone who is already prone. Now, there is nothing to prevent the tripper from tripping you with his next attack, but he cannot simply keep you pinned down forever with AoO trips.
A wizard does not complete his spellcasting before your AoO connects (otherwise he wouldn't have to make a check to complete the spell from taking damage). A person without Imp. Disarm does not disarm you before you can strike at him. Same with trip. Don't fall into this often-misconceived notion of chain-tripping. It isn't legal.
That actually makes a lot of sense, and it's really good to know. I'm going to relay this to my group. Thanks.
|
RPG Superstar 2013 Top 32
|
To expand on that topic. If someone leaves a threatened square, but not on his own accord, does he provoke a AOO? A player is knocked past an opponent by some magic means, does the opponent get an AOO?
Answer: Yes. A common tactic is to bull rush an opponent past a bunch of allies so that they can use their AoOs to beat the crap out of the opponent. The bull rush moves the target against their will, but they ARE moving and thusly ARE provoking AoOs. It is therefore reasonable to assume that any movement, under the character's own power or not, would similarly draw AoOs.
An excerpt from the SRD regarding Bull Rush:
Bull Rush Results: If you beat the defender’s Strength check result, you push him back 5 feet. If you wish to move with the defender, you can push him back an additional 5 feet for each 5 points by which your check result is greater than the defender’s check result. You can’t, however, exceed your normal movement limit. (Note: The defender provokes attacks of opportunity if he is moved. So do you, if you move with him. The two of you do not provoke attacks of opportunity from each other, however.)
(Emphasis mine.)
OK, new option. What happens if a player decides to drag a prone player out of a threatened square?
Player A: Prone goes full Defense
Player B: Move action to grab Player A, Move action to drag Player A as far as Player B can move.
Does an opponent get an AOO against Player A because he is moving out of a threatened square?To expand on that topic. If someone leaves a threatened square, but not on his own accord, does he provoke a AOO? A player is knocked past an opponent by some magic means, does the opponent get an AOO?
Fatespinner pretty much got this one, and also note the character that would be doing the dragging would probably have to reach in/enter the prone creatures spot to actually grab on and drag the other character which would provoke an attack as well (your prone creature is acting like an object at this point no? Letting him/her self be hauled around). It would be like one creature moving in so 2 creatures are squeezing into a square or one creature moving and picking up something out of a threatened area (you are grabbing your comrade and pulling him out). Either way it is done it should still provoke the attack as you are leaving yourself open. You shouldn't be able to just ignore the prone posistion/status effect/whatever you want to call it.
Oh, and for thoroughness sakes, why can't someone full withdraw 10' while prone? They are desperate for options to get out of being prone.
Chances are less desperate and more aggravated for not thinking things through maybe?
The options are there the character just doesn't want to deal with the repercussions of an AoO. Honestly if they had that few hit points they should not have got that close to someone in the first place. It isn't like the trip attack is what brought them down in hit points, all it does is knock someone prone. There are other circumstances with the whole scenario and I am 100% positive if it were the players who tripped the npc, they'd be arguing for not allowing the move away without an AoO. It goes both ways and should be balanced along those lines. If they had that few hit point and the npc had just hit and crit'd they'd have died no questions asked right? Instead they got tripped and lived a little longer and might actually survive the encounter.
They either got unlucky or were stupid to have ended up prone in the first place (basically either a trip attack actually worked and considering the DC's it is what a 20%(?) if you are built to trip people or they willing fell prone as free action). Like I have mentioned earlier, there are very few ways to end up prone and they have gotten more difficult to pull off - heck being stunned doesn't even make you prone and it is probably one of the worst status effects you can be affected by. I would rather not be playing a game where the characters can easily get out of every "jam" they get into just by saying "I move" which is what tumble and withdraw do.
Just make a character who should be good at tripping to get a feeling for the rules. When that character is missing trip attacks left and right because the DC is too high and on the few occasions they do get to trip, just have the NPC "withdraw" or "tumble" away without any issues or AoO's maybe then they will have an understanding of it all. I mean yes it sucks when it happens to you but it is a game, you crawl away or stand up, take the AoO - who knows they might even miss. If the character gets hit, it might not be enough to kill and you are only knocked out. If the character dies the party can have him/her raised or they can bring in another character. It is all part of the game as well.
I get the frustration, no one likes to lose a character. But if the rules are written to allow them to escape/win all the time, what is the point really?
To expand on that topic. If someone leaves a threatened square, but not on his own accord, does he provoke a AOO? A player is knocked past an opponent by some magic means, does the opponent get an AOO?Answer: Yes. A common tactic is to bull rush an opponent past a bunch of allies so that they can use their AoOs to beat the crap out of the opponent. The bull rush moves the target against their will, but they ARE moving and thusly ARE provoking AoOs.
Note! The wording of the Pathfinder feat "Greater Bull Rush" implies that this is NOT the case in PFRPG:
"Greater Bull Rush (Combat)
Your bull rush attacks throw enemies off balance.
Prerequisites: Improved Bull Rush, base attack bonus +6.
Benefit: Whenever you bull rush an opponent, their movement provokes attacks of opportunity from all of your allies (but not you).
Normal: Creatures moved by bull rush do not provoke attacks of opportunity."
Kind of dumb, but there you have it.
|
RPG Superstar 2013 Top 32
|
Note! The wording of the Pathfinder feat "Greater Bull Rush" implies that this is NOT the case in PFRPG:
Hmm. Interesting. I wonder what the logic behind this particular change is? Did Jason & Co. feel that the "bull rush your enemies through a group of allies" trick was too powerful? Does requiring a single feat really make it more balanced somehow?
Hmm. Interesting. I wonder what the logic behind this particular change is? Did Jason & Co. feel that the "bull rush your enemies through a group of allies" trick was too powerful? Does requiring a single feat really make it more balanced somehow?
Note! The wording of the Pathfinder feat "Greater Bull Rush" implies that this is NOT the case in PFRPG:
Yes, there was a discussion on this in the Combat forum and Jason said he thought it was too much. I disagree.
...I'm sorry, if someone I tripped tried to get up, I'm gonna trip them again...
Witch you can do as an attack on your turn or a delayed action (more representative of waiting for someone to get back up), just not as a AoO that can be taken by anyone threatening the victim.
Yes, there was a discussion on this in the Combat forum and Jason said he thought it was too much. I disagree.Hmm. Interesting. I wonder what the logic behind this particular change is? Did Jason & Co. feel that the "bull rush your enemies through a group of allies" trick was too powerful? Does requiring a single feat really make it more balanced somehow?
Note! The wording of the Pathfinder feat "Greater Bull Rush" implies that this is NOT the case in PFRPG:
I killed this one in my game by saying they had 50/50 chance of hitting the ally instead of the enemy (as per ranged missile attacks into a grapple - only in this case the grapple is moving rather than the missile)
funnily enough they still occasionally try it and seem to enjoy roleplaying the inevitable freindly fire argument
back to the topic, in my 3,5 we ruled that if 5'crawl is a move action, to tumble at half speed wasn't possible so you took the -10 penalty for tumbling at full speed....
i don't think theres too much wrong with crawl always provoking an aoO, but i'd be equally happy with a -10 penalty to Acrobatics for being prone and then treating crawl like any other move action.....
A wizard does not complete his spellcasting before your AoO connects (otherwise he wouldn't have to make a check to complete the spell from taking damage). A person without Imp. Disarm does not disarm you before you can strike at him. Same with trip. Don't fall into this often-misconceived notion of chain-tripping. It isn't legal.
I don't disagree on the point concerning trip. It should not be possible to trip a character standing up from being prone (it might be logical to say you could, but would make trip to effective).
But isn't your logic regarding disarm the opposite of this case? You make the point that disarm doesn't occur until after you've made your action. But in case of tripping the attack occurs before, which makes a new trip impossible.|
RPG Superstar 2013 Top 32
|
But isn't your logic regarding disarm the opposite of this case? You make the point that disarm doesn't occur until after you've made your action. But in case of tripping the attack occurs before, which makes a new trip impossible.
No, I was saying, in essence:
"I try to stand up from prone. You may hit me before I finish standing." and...
"I try to disarm you. You may hit me before I do so."
I was illustrating the AoO is completed before the intended action is completed, whether that be a spellcasting, a disarm attempt, or standing up.
@Mhagus
In 3.5 there were rules for Bull Rush that included a chance for hitting either the defender or the attacker as they had to move into the opponents square to push them: Special Attacks - Bull Rush.
But isn't your logic regarding disarm the opposite of this case? You make the point that disarm doesn't occur until after you've made your action. But in case of tripping the attack occurs before, which makes a new trip impossible.No, I was saying, in essence:
"I try to stand up from prone. You may hit me before I finish standing." and...
"I try to disarm you. You may hit me before I do so."
I was illustrating the AoO is completed before the intended action is completed, whether that be a spellcasting, a disarm attempt, or standing up.
PFRPG has "solved" this problem by not allowing Combat Maneuvers as part of an AoO (Digging for the post now...)
Jason Bulmahn (Lead Designer), Tue, Dec 16, 2008, 02:18 AM
Flag
| Reply
PZO1110BetaItsyHmm.. currently, Combat Maneuvers should not be used as part of an AoO (despite any combat maneuver language issues). I made this change for two reasons...
The first was to streamline the turn sequence. AoO's are disruptive enough as they currently stand, but adding in a Combat Maneuver can easily bog things down.
The second was that I wanted to curtail the use of Combat Maneuvers as an "Action Denial" strategy. Now, I can understand why players like this strategy (its quite effective if done right), but when turned on the players, the game can quickly become no fun for anyone. Through the use of trip, disarm, and grapple, you can usually completely nullify an opponents planned action, or at least hamper it to the point of being insignificant. I am not 100% sure this is good for the game as a whole....
Of course, these are only my current thoughts on the issue.. I am, as always, open to debate and suggestion. Can anyone give me some actual playtest feedback on how this has affected play?
Jason Bulmahn
Lead Designer
Paizo Publishing
Yes, where exactly does it say that melee or ranged attacks into a grappled/grappling melee result in hitting friends half the time and foes the other?
In 3.5, it was in footnote 3 of the table of Armor Class modifiers.
http://www.d20srd.org/srd/combat/combatModifiers.htm
Ah, I see. Am I to understand that unless explicitly stated in the PF Beta manual, I am to follow all of the 3.5 rules? And "grappling" means one that is grappling and the one that is being grappled?Yes, where exactly does it say that melee or ranged attacks into a grappled/grappling melee result in hitting friends half the time and foes the other?In 3.5, it was in footnote 3 of the table of Armor Class modifiers.
http://www.d20srd.org/srd/combat/combatModifiers.htm
I'd double check the rules in Pathfinder and look for a similar foot note in the combat section (no book access atm). They did change the way grappling works now as you no longer enter the square of the person you are grappling with so they might have tossed it. I have read the grappling rules several times and don't recall anything to that effect there. Given they have been trying to "reel in" the number of rolls made in combat to speed things up, I wouldn't be surprised if that were the case. I don't think there has been anything said to the effect of "unless written otherwise refer to srd", Beta has as far as I can tell been pretty much a rewrite of the rules and is supposed to stand as is.
As for grappling you are correct however it isn't limited to one person grappling another, you could have 2 or more characters "grappling" each other (2 attackers grappling 1 defender for example). It might be clearer to say "grappling" occurs when someone succeeds at a grapple roll (they started grappling the defender) or when someone fails to escape a particular grapple (the defender is stuck grappling the attacker, if they had won the grapple is over and they are no longer restricted in regards to that one attacker). If 2 people succeed in grappling you, you need to escape the 2 grapples individually (and on different rounds as it takes a std. action to attempt to escape a grapple). Hopefully that isn't more confusing...Also sorry for posting to the Bull rush, I was at work scanning through the posts and had seen the Imp Bull Rush post right above when I saw your post (and apparently selectively ignored the grappling part lol) about hitting friendlies. The dangers of posting at work I'm afraid >.<; Obviously hogarth got it right!
Ah, I see. Am I to understand that unless explicitly stated in the PF Beta manual, I am to follow all of the 3.5 rules?
No, I think they got rid of the chance to hit the wrong person. It sort of makes sense, considering they also removed the requirement for the two grapplers to share one square.
Ah, I see. Am I to understand that unless explicitly stated in the PF Beta manual, I am to follow all of the 3.5 rules?No, I think they got rid of the chance to hit the wrong person. It sort of makes sense, considering they also removed the requirement for the two grapplers to share one square.
The 3,5 rule of 50/50 miss for range, no miss chance for melee, made sense for me (with the house rule i used for moving Grapples & AoO's also having a miss chance to prevent abuse)
pathfinder now says no miss chance, but no AoO's for moving in a grapple if i understand it right? Nice and simple
(does this mean you can also 'take a hostage' and grapple a mook to push pass a line of defenders ignoring AoO's?
(apologies for straying off topic)
@Mhagus
In 3.5 there were rules for Bull Rush that included a chance for hitting either the defender or the attacker as they had to move into the opponents square to push them: Special Attacks - Bull Rush.But isn't your logic regarding disarm the opposite of this case? You make the point that disarm doesn't occur until after you've made your action. But in case of tripping the attack occurs before, which makes a new trip impossible.No, I was saying, in essence:
"I try to stand up from prone. You may hit me before I finish standing." and...
"I try to disarm you. You may hit me before I do so."
I was illustrating the AoO is completed before the intended action is completed, whether that be a spellcasting, a disarm attempt, or standing up.
PFRPG has "solved" this problem by not allowing Combat Maneuvers as part of an AoO (Digging for the post now...)
snip....
I think this has been updated since then
sorry, can't find the link but the cut and paste i made 13-jan from one of Jasons post shows
" Bull Rush, Grapple, and Overrun are standard actions that cannot be made as part of an attack action.
- Disarm, Sunder, and Trip are standard actions, but they can also be made in place of an attack, during an attack action.
- Disarm, Sunder, and Trip can be made as an AoO using these rules, but Bull Rush, Grapple, and Overrun cannot.
- You cannot take an AoO that provokes an AoO itself.!"
I assume this is the current design intent, unless I've missed another post on it!
Nope that's the last I've heard on it too.
Of course this means that if you want to trip as apart of an AoO:
1. The opponent must not be prone already.
2. You must not provoke an AoO with your action that is taken as an AoO (either you must have improved trip or be out of range to provoke an AoO).