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Let me define the Scout role as:
1) Being able to get to places most of the party cannot.
For example, the way out of the cavern is through a portcullis. To get to the opening mechanism you have to climb up to a ledge, balance across a narrow bridge, squeeze through a gap, swim under a moat, etc, etc
2) Reconnoiter
The party has a choice of three ways it can go so it sends the scout to do a quick recky down each one of them first.
3) Traps
It generally goes with this role but it is of secondary importance. It's quite possible that in the course of doing (1) and (2) you get to a trap. Spotting it is a good idea, and sometimes you'll want to disarm it while you're there too.
This is all what I think of as traditional Rogue stuff, but with Rogues arguably considered second rate I wonder what the alternatives might be.
Richard
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Obvious option is Ranger/Rogue or a roguey type ranger archetype.
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I'm thinking of a "career", BTW - not just a build for a particular level :-)
My first thoughts were Half-Orc Rogue, 90' Darkvision, probably Trap specialist archetype (forget what it's called) and a high wisdom.
I'm not sure I would want to rely on spells for invisibility and flight. If you go out on your own, this stuff can run out. I also think you have to be able to defend yourself to *some* extent.
One thing about Invisibility is that at high levels you get lots of things that can negate it. As a GM, the biggest problem I ever gave my players at high level was with a rogue with a massive stealth that they needed 20s to spot - spells did not help.
Richard
Arcane trickster. Its an often overlooked combo but the combination of spells and skills is uncanny. Magic and skill compliment each other so well.
For instance stealth + invisibility + nondetection + mindblank, its almost iimpossible to seperate at higher levels.
Disguise + alter self + disguise self: magic by itself just isn't strong enough to cut a good disguise, and either is the skill.
Unfortunately they nerfed the trickster during the summer (rogues don't get nice things) though its still a decent class combat wise, and can excel at everything else outside of combat. I've played 2, and love them dearly. They are just so versatile. I've been debating on a divine trickster with the new sla rules but none of the spell lists seem to help as much, and I like an int caster fory trickster (I've done the sorcerer/ninja and the rogue/wizard).
Mind Blank is good but it's 3k per scroll!
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Let me define the Scout role as:
1) Being able to get to places most of the party cannot.
2) Reconnoiter
3) TrapsIt generally goes with this role but it is of secondary importance. It's quite possible that in the course of doing (1) and (2) you get to a trap. Spotting it is a good idea, and sometimes you'll want to disarm it while you're there too.
This is all what I think of as traditional Rogue stuff, but with Rogues arguably considered second rate I wonder what the alternatives might be.
They're considered second-rate by players who build their rogues to be BDFs because their GMs never throw stuff like ^^^ at them during meat-grinder hack-n-slash.
(Refer detractors to many existing threads, as I digress.)
Rule #1 for any scout away from the party is to never, ever, *ever* be spotted -- because that's when bad things happen.
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The well-rounded halfling scofflaw:
STR-10
DEX+17
CON:14
INT:12
WIS:12
CHA+14
Racial traits: (none)
Traits: Dangerously Curious, Freedom Fighter (Andoran faction)
BA saves: (include halfling bonus)
01 05 06 02 ranger FEAT
02 05 08 02 rogue1 SA+1d6
03 05 09 02 rogue2 [evasion][TRICK], FEAT
04 07 11 04 rogue3 DEX>18, SA+2d6, buy cloak+1
Equipment goals: wands or consumables of Cure Light Wounds, Longstrider, Instant Enemy, Grease, Mage Armor, Expeditious Retreat, Reduce Person, Enlarge Person
-- A reduced halfling can waltz through cat-doors, portholes, etc.
Ranger and Rogue give him damn near all skills in the game, and with Skill Mastery on tap at 11th, he'll be untouchable at many tasks other PCs dare not contemplate.
(Alignment permitting, halfling rogue/paladins are incredibly resilient and feature synergistic.)
I would take a kobold with the prehensile tail alternate racial, the wisdom in the flesh (climb) trait.
The above will net you: Bonuses to stealth for small size, bonus on perception, able to use climb with wisdom and a bonus on it, darkvision 60ft. Later you can take a feat to move at full speed without getting a penalty on stealth.
For classes there are a multitude of options. But I think inquisitor with the trapfinder trait (if allowed) could work well.
Druid: best scout with spells and wildshape, summons for traps and good survivability. Sky high perception on top of that.
Dealing with locks, traps and alarms is an important part of scouting (being stopped by a locked & sealed door is embarrassing), but as noted in other threads this can be achieved via trait or archetype.
As a career you will probably need more magic when scouting than you can reliably gain access to in items. So, you do actually need to be some form of spellcaster IMO. Almost any sort will do tho' I have a weak spot for the oracle.
I agree with Umbranus, a Kobold is going to work out well. Small, but still has a 30 move speed. Has Darkvision. Racial +2 to Perception. Stealth as a class skill, regardless of class.
A Kobold Sorcerer is damn near a rogue. Stealth and Disable Device are class skills. At 3rd level, you get Trap Sense. At 5th level, once you have enough Stealth ranks, take the Kobold Ambusher feat, and you can sneak at full speed with no penalty, or even while running with only a -10 penalty. This is all on top of being a full spellcaster.
OK, we need ...
- fast movement
- stealth
- trap finding
- dark vision
- perceptive
and desirables
- ability to communicate back to party
- climbing
- acrobatics
Barbarian wouldn't be bad for this (with fast movement and trap sense), although Rogue and Ranger are probably more obvious choices.
Goblin could be good (+4 Dex, another +4 on Stealth Checks, 60 foot darkvision) ... or swap for the "Over-sized ears" alternate trait and get +4 on Perception instead of Stealth).
I like the Kobold Sorcerer/Ninja idea - mainly because the Sorcerer will likely be limited at higher levels by the kobold's lower base constitution. The stealth combined with a couple low level spells (Expeditious Retreat, Message, etc) will make a great low level scout, and at higher levels, the ninja combat capabilities are added to it.
Have you considered an archeologist bard? They have enough skill points to and class skills to cover any skills you will need. With spells like invisibility, gaseous form and dimension door they can get to places like no one else. Since they get a straight bonus to all perception rolls instead of just for traps they will spot things other characters miss. The cantrip message is great for reporting back to the party.
The archeologist can also fill two other important roles. As a charisma based skill monkey they can easily fill the role of the party face. Bardic knowledge allows them to cover all the knowledge skills with minimal investment of skill points.
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Luckily...They're considered second-rate by players who build their rogues to be BDFs because their GMs never throw stuff like ^^^ at them during meat-grinder hack-n-slash.
(Refer detractors to many existing threads, as I digress.)
...I referred you to one of the many existent threads where you can go to bash rogues. You should go read ALL of them right now.
See you in a couple months.
Play a Slayer.
Full BAB, access to the Ranger's Favored Terrains, The Rogue's Trapfinding, Sneak Attack, plus Tracking, Quarry, 6+int skills, all the requisite scouting class skills.
You get the best of both worlds from the Ranger and Rogue, and for combat-oriented variants you also get access to the Ranger's Combat styles. You basically get a feat at every level thanks to Slayer Talents.
As far as defending yourself goes outside of the low levels I would put my money on the solo full spellcaster far and away above the rogue. The rogue is very squishy, often depends on a flanking buddy to do much damage and has no real get out of jail cards in the event of being caught outside of UMD.
I do not agree. When you are a rogue, play a rogue. If you get caught, don't try to obliterate the opposition: use your skill. At low level, you will have more skill than any (I repeat, ANY) class. Use your head: accept to be caught and use escape artist latter, bluff your way out or wathever. And in that area, the rogue will be far better than full caster (mage and sage will get mayber 6 skills pts, while the rogue will have probably 9, with bluff, stealth, perception, acrobatics and escapte artist as class skill).
So, in my opinion, Rogue and Ranger are the top at low level. The bard will catch up with versatile performance and the druid with shape shifting, and latter the full caster will too (when they will have enough spell per day to ''trash'' some in the scouting area. And they will probably send the rogue or the ranger, boosted by those spell....)
I would look at a kitsune rogue. The combination of charm person, misdirection, disguise self and invisibility 2 time per day seems pretty good in my opinion.
Why as no-one mentioned the Cryptbreaker Alchemist??? That guy is good at that stuff. Gains trapfinding and such, gains soem useful rogue talents, and the fact that he has extracts and not spells can actually prove useful because (depending on the GM), Somatic Components may break stealth... and certain spells may not be so subtle (like spells with verbal components... or spells like shocking grasp). Where as a potion is actually rather subtle since it is a flask.
Additionally, depending on what you are facing, certain bomb discoveries can actually help neutralize small threats while still being subtle...
Oh! The investigator from ACG is actually pretty good at this as well... with all skill bonuses and all...
I made Doyle as part of a discussion on replacing the rogue with a druid as a scout. He worked out really well, but scouting was just of very limited use no matter who did it.
Str 7 Dex 14 Con 14 Int 14 Wis 19 cha 7
With a velociraptor wearing the druid in bat form as a hat, it wasn't an option of scouting ahead or having the tank up front: there was both. He had low light vision, dark vision (from a belt of dwarfyness) blindsense , and if something STILL managed to surprise them, the velociraptor ate it.
in 12 levels of PFS there was only one time i regretted not having trapfinder. A high wisdom score and eyes of the eagle made him better at finding traps than most.
As far as defending yourself goes outside of the low levels I would put my money on the solo full spellcaster far and away above the rogue. The rogue is very squishy, often depends on a flanking buddy to do much damage and has no real get out of jail cards in the event of being caught outside of UMD.I do not agree. When you are a rogue, play a rogue. If you get caught, don't try to obliterate the opposition: use your skill. At low level, you will have more skill than any (I repeat, ANY) class. Use your head: accept to be caught and use escape artist latter, bluff your way out or wathever. And in that area, the rogue will be far better than full caster (mage and sage will get mayber 6 skills pts, while the rogue will have probably 9, with bluff, stealth, perception, acrobatics and escapte artist as class skill).
So, in my opinion, Rogue and Ranger are the top at low level. The bard will catch up with versatile performance and the druid with shape shifting, and latter the full caster will too (when they will have enough spell per day to ''trash'' some in the scouting area. And they will probably send the rogue or the ranger, boosted by those spell....)
I would look at a kitsune rogue. The combination of charm person, misdirection, disguise self and invisibility 2 time per day seems pretty good in my opinion.
Actually, I think Alchemists have you beat there... especially bomber alchemists... They tend to have obnoxiously high INT and they get 6+ skills... that is alot of skills....
Oh and the Investigator is also really good with skills....
Oh and WHOOPIE!!! YOU HAVE 9 SKILL RANKS A LEVEL!!! NOW YOU CAN TAKE PROFESSION BASKETWEAVING! I mean, seriously, after a certain point, your ranks mean very little.
Oh, and problem about your little scenerio. What if they are not taking captives? Your kinda SOL, where as a Ninja 3/Sorcerer 1 (arcane)/Arcane Trickster X with Eldritch Heritage (Shadow) nets you a fairly large bonus to stealth, ability to create situations to use stealth (Darkness spell, blindness, Veil, Vanishing Trick, ect.), and the ability to get out of danger fast (the Dimension Door Ability from Shadow Bloodline, Dimension Door the Spell, Gaseous Form, Contingency, ect.)
Yeah, an Alchemist can beat the Rogue in skill, but at low level I'm pretty sure the rogue will be better overall. Were the Bomber Alchemist will have a Int maxed, he will have some of the stats dumbed (like... charisma). And the rogue may keep them at a better level, depending on the build.
For the Investitagor, it's not yet release, right? I didn't see what the class look, but with all the love the rogue get..
And I disagree: the skill may always be usefull. The problem is more that the players need to use their head. 9 skill? It means bluff, diplo, sense motive, stealth, perception, escape artist, acrobatics, intimidate and survival maxed, all skills that may become usefull for a scout at low level. And if they are not taking captive? Well then, it depends of the DM, like any skill relatde thing. But unless you are against chaotic evil stupid creature, you may be able to get your way out of the trouble, even if the watch man have received the order to ''kill any scout without interrogation. The boss don't want to know who is against him''. And for you build, sure it's good. At level 5.. And it use an alternative class of the rogue.
Sure, with some min-max and imagination you can get something better, but I don't think the rogue should be ignored.
I would look at a kitsune rogue. The combination of charm person, misdirection, disguise self and invisibility 2 time per day seems pretty good in my opinion.
You do realize that all these spells are on the bards list? Also to get these by 5th level you have used all your feats which nerfs your combat ability. Also this archetype loses trap finding which is kind of useful for a scout. If you want a magical rogue an archeologist bard has everything the rogue has and more.