So I was recently looking at the witch archetypes when I saw the "beastbonded" archetype. It basically gives you the ability to have your familliar learn feats instead of you and at 8th level, to shapechange into something of your familliar's "type" (not sure if it's actually type, or thematic type, cat > big cat).
I am not an expert on this, so I was wondering if this could be used in any way to develop an infinite loop to give infinite feats or even the level of power that Pun-Pun has.
Related question: Is there already a Pun-Pun in Pathfinder?
OhdeargodIhopenot.
There wasn't a Pun-Pun in 3.5 either unless you:
a) allowed the Faerun books, which were generally not balanced against non-Faerun things,
b) interpreted one poorly-worded flavor ability as having absolutely no limits on its power or scope, and
c) abused the polymorph rules to get that ability.
Since Faerun is not PF-legal, and the polymorph rules are no longer ridiculously ill-defined, I think we're fine.
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From the prd:
Transfer Feats (Ex): Whenever the beast-bonded witch is capable of learning a new feat, she may choose to instead have her familiar learn the feat as a bonus feat. The familiar must meet the prerequisites for any feats that it learns this way. If her familiar is lost or dies, the witch can reclaim the feat slots and select new feats for herself, or apply the slots toward her new familiar.
Familiar Form (Sp): At 8th level, a beast-bonded witch may take the shape of her familiar (or a giant version of her familiar or a similar kind of animal) as if using beast shape II. For example, a witch with a rat familiar can turn into a Tiny rat, Small dire rat, or a larger rodent; one with a cat familiar can turn into a Tiny cat or a Large feline such as a tiger or lion; one with a monkey familiar can turn into a Tiny monkey or a Large gorilla, and so on. The witch can remain in animal form for a number of minutes per day equal to her level. This ability replaces the witch's 8th-level hex.
I may be (not so) slightly hazed by the heat and humidity, but by the benevolence of Crom, can't see any loop whatsoever.
Your familiar may get a feat instead of you. For the familiar-heavy witch is something that could make sense.
You may wildshape into a form similar or related to that of your familiar. You don't get any of your specific familiar's abilities, just those from a wildshape effect which produces a similar form.
How could you gain extra/infinite feat?
No Pun-Pun to be seen.
Pun Pun was on the CIA payroll.
From the prd:
Transfer Feats (Ex): Whenever the beast-bonded witch is capable of learning a new feat, she may choose to instead have her familiar learn the feat as a bonus feat. The familiar must meet the prerequisites for any feats that it learns this way. If her familiar is lost or dies, the witch can reclaim the feat slots and select new feats for herself, or apply the slots toward her new familiar.Familiar Form (Sp): At 8th level, a beast-bonded witch may take the shape of her familiar (or a giant version of her familiar or a similar kind of animal) as if using beast shape II. For example, a witch with a rat familiar can turn into a Tiny rat, Small dire rat, or a larger rodent; one with a cat familiar can turn into a Tiny cat or a Large feline such as a tiger or lion; one with a monkey familiar can turn into a Tiny monkey or a Large gorilla, and so on. The witch can remain in animal form for a number of minutes per day equal to her level. This ability replaces the witch's 8th-level hex.I may be (not so) slightly hazed by the heat and humidity, but by the benevolence of Crom, can't see any loop whatsoever.
Your familiar may get a feat instead of you. For the familiar-heavy witch is something that could make sense.
You may wildshape into a form similar or related to that of your familiar. You don't get any of your specific familiar's abilities, just those from a wildshape effect which produces a similar form.
How could you gain extra/infinite feat?
No Pun-Pun to be seen.
I thought I saw some potential, because usually when there is some sort of transferring, you can abuse it. :)
The only possible abouse here would be a witch duming feats off to the familiar and then getting it killed so she can take feats she normally wouldn't have qualified for at the time.
Very sketchy.
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The only possible abouse here would be a witch duming feats off to the familiar and then getting it killed so she can take feats she normally wouldn't have qualified for at the time.
Very sketchy.
Very sketchy indeed, as the Transfer Feats ability says the witch can reclaim the slots, not the feats themselves, so all the qualifying bit would still apply as normal. So, it's a big no.
More RAI than RAW, but a witch getting the familiar killed on intention would probably annoy the patron power, leading to some serious problems.Still, the Familiar Form ability is not involved in the least.
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The only possible abouse here would be a witch duming feats off to the familiar and then getting it killed so she can take feats she normally wouldn't have qualified for at the time.
Very sketchy.
Very sketchy indeed, as the Transfer Feats ability says the witch can reclaim the slots, not the feats themselves, so all the qualifying bit would still apply as normal. So, it's a big no.
More RAI than RAW, but a witch getting the familiar killed on intention would probably annoy the patron power, leading to some serious problems.Still, the Familiar Form ability is not involved in the least.
No it specifically states the witch can select new feats for themselves or the new familiar so by Raw it's legal.
And nothing says you have to kill the familiar just that it has to be lost. As in look at the familiar and tell it "get lost" and select a new familiar. It's an expensive way to get a new set of feats but legal.
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The only possible abouse here would be a witch duming feats off to the familiar and then getting it killed so she can take feats she normally wouldn't have qualified for at the time.
Very sketchy.
Very sketchy indeed, as the Transfer Feats ability says the witch can reclaim the slots, not the feats themselves, so all the qualifying bit would still apply as normal. So, it's a big no.
More RAI than RAW, but a witch getting the familiar killed on intention would probably annoy the patron power, leading to some serious problems.Still, the Familiar Form ability is not involved in the least.
No it specifically states the witch can select new feats for themselves or the new familiar so by Raw it's legal.
And nothing says you have to kill the familiar just that it has to be lost. As in look at the familiar and tell it "get lost" and select a new familiar. It's an expensive way to get a new set of feats but legal.
But the "new" feats would be in the very same slots the witch had sacrificed/switched beforehand for the familiar, so compared to a character that didn't went that way the difference is still zero.
There is no loop/trick to gain extra feat slots; you just regain the ones you had previously diverted to the familiar. And you don't get the feats that went to the familiar for which it qualified either, you just get the slots, so there's no strange wording trick to gain feats otherwise not accessible.Regarding the lost familiar, saying "get lost" would be dismissing it, and as a GM I wouldn't actually consider it equiparable to a familiar KIA or lost in a freaky dimensional gate accident.
While this is a thing more related to RAI than real RAW, at a table it could become an issue.
Stupid typos :D
The trick with losing the familiar is getting the feats at a level where you qualify for more feats. Say for example you use your 1st and 3rd level feats on the familiar. Then you get the familiar killed at level 7 and get two feats - which you spend on Craft Wand and Leadership. Since the game doesn't keep track of when you got a feat, it's kind of possible by RAW.
So you can more or less use it to retrain feats. It's very expensive though, and requires you to be feat-less until the point where you want to retrain it. Kind of like waiting to spend the feats.
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I finally get it. It's a trick to avoid "burning" the feat slots on lesser choices and keep all them for the sweet spot level where you can afford feats for which you wouldn't qualify before.
I was thinking more about the overall number.
It's something I wouldn't worry too much, given the background limitations I could enforce at my table about losing the familiar on intention, as I said before. However now I can understand the grey area in the RAW.
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The trick with losing the familiar is getting the feats at a level where you qualify for more feats. Say for example you use your 1st and 3rd level feats on the familiar. Then you get the familiar killed at level 7 and get two feats - which you spend on Craft Wand and Leadership. Since the game doesn't keep track of when you got a feat, it's kind of possible by RAW.
So you can more or less use it to retrain feats. It's very expensive though, and requires you to be feat-less until the point where you want to retrain it. Kind of like waiting to spend the feats.
Is that something that a sane or rational GM would allow?
I know I wouldn't.
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Is that something that a sane or rational GM would allow?
I know I wouldn't.
But are you sane and/or rational? Because without that information, your statement is pretty much useless. :P
But are you sane and/or rational? Because without that information, your statement is pretty much useless. :PIs that something that a sane or rational GM would allow?
I know I wouldn't.
Haaaa!
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The trick with losing the familiar is getting the feats at a level where you qualify for more feats. Say for example you use your 1st and 3rd level feats on the familiar. Then you get the familiar killed at level 7 and get two feats - which you spend on Craft Wand and Leadership. Since the game doesn't keep track of when you got a feat, it's kind of possible by RAW.
So you can more or less use it to retrain feats. It's very expensive though, and requires you to be feat-less until the point where you want to retrain it. Kind of like waiting to spend the feats.
Is that something that a sane or rational GM would allow?
I know I wouldn't.
In your game do as you choose, however it is RAW and apparently RAI as well so it would work at my table.
Now that I've spent some more time thinking about it and how it interacts with the level 10 ability and the improved familiar feat I think I see what it allows.Step one, dump as many feats as you can into your familiar every chance you can. Doesn't matter what, as long as you have cash they can be changed.
Step two, pick up improved familiar feat before 11th level. Doesn't matter what you take.
Step three, swap familiar for a specially crafted Homonculus familiar make sure you spend at least 20 grand on it and take the size increase if you want it, I personally get it to at least size small and build every enhancement and feat you can into it.
Step four, Kill yourself and body jump into the familiar and take control of the body. You know have personal use of all those feats you earned + all the powers you built into it + all the construct traits.
If you spent enough cash on it your familiar body will be considered a 20HD critter for spells and effects that get past the construct traits and spell resistance of your new form. You'll also be permanently flying with a secondary mind to handle things when you are concentrating on spells and you can switch control back and forth with a move action.
Use your new superior immortal, flying, armored, poisonous, combat body to dominate the battlefield while being immune to just about everything. Anytime you decide to you can then jump ship into a random new body via free magic jar and live a normal life, safe in the knowledge that if anything happens to you BAM right back into your juggernaut body you go.
Assuming it is allowed, can anyone think of how to use this so that it actually makes a noticeable difference in power?
Is that something that a sane or rational GM would allow?
I know I wouldn't.
I'd allow it any day of the week (though I'm not completely sane, I'm not in a mental hospital (anymore, hehe)). Seriously, if a player asked me "may I wait in taking this feat at level 5 so I can get an extra feat at level 7?" I'd say yes in a heartbeat (unless she was a notorious rules twister that tried to corrupt the game, but we've got none of those here fortunately). It's not a big deal and she DOES give something up for it (being one feat short for a few levels). She wouldn't even need to go through the hoops of this feat to do it.
Mathwei brings up a good point.
So you can pass all or most of your feats to your familiar, and later on pick the improved familiar feat and obtain a homunculus. If you pump a ton of gold into the homunculus and then kill yourself and live in its body, can't you have a pretty impressive body.
Your homunculus body will have all of your feats + a ton of feats from the homunculus HD and a bunch of other abilities I would think.
When you transfer to someone's body nothing says you get to keep both sets of feats though. I would use Magic Jar or the other similar spell as a precedent as to how that works out. I would have to look it up, but I am almost certain you only get to use your feats when that happens.
I am lost. Pun-Pun??
Infinite loop shapeshifter?
Also how does one transfer their selves into their familiar?
I am assuming Trap the Soul or Magic Jar.
Ok a few things being over look.
1: If you loose the familer, you loose your spells. Thy do not carry over.
2: YOu give up your feat slot to the familer.You are not gaining extra ones.
3: If you transfer into your familers body upon death, guess who is in control?
Its a very, very pricy way to retrain feats, or allow one to gain a type of immortally at 1oth level, something most people who really want to can arrange by that level anyhow.
I am simply not seeing an issue here.
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Ok a few things being over look.
1: If you loose the familer, you loose your spells. Thy do not carry over.
2: YOu give up your feat slot to the familer.You are not gaining extra ones.
3: If you transfer into your familers body upon death, guess who is in control?Its a very, very pricy way to retrain feats, or allow one to gain a type of immortally at 1oth level, something most people who really want to can arrange by that level anyhow.
I am simply not seeing an issue here.
1. First you make back-ups of most of your spells on scrolls before 10th level. After that your familiar will never die again so you don't care about this problem.
(Every time it's body dies it jumps into whatever body you are in at the time and you just build a new body for it)2. The familiar will either use those feats to improve the body or give them back to you when you switch to a new familiar. The point is for me to be able to either delay spending those feat slots until higher level so I can get the level restricted feats OR spend them on the familiar body so I can have an awesome new body to use at will.
3. I am. The point of this ability is as a move action the familiar can give complete control of the body to the possessing Master.
This will happen whenever the Witch wants to cast a spell, the rest of the time you are an un-targetable intellect with full access to all your Hexes/pure mental abilities.
Remember, unlike all the other familiars in the book the Homunculus is the only one referred to as:
Homunculi are little more than tools designed to carry out assigned tasks. They are extensions of their creators, sharing the same alignment and basic nature.
Here's the example I'm currently working on:
Human Witch 12 riding in a 20HD small sized homonculus.
The homonculus controls the body 90% of the time and fly's around filling every opponent with poisoned, spell storing arrows (constructs can't be poisoned).
At the same time the riding witch will be using his standard action to split hex 2 targets a round. when needed the witch will assume control of the body and cast whatever spells he chooses from there OR periodically the witch will possess one of the opponents in combat and grapple, use hexes, cast spells or just suicide the body.
I have 17 (10 from the construct 7 from me) feats to spend on this gestalt body and I recovered every feat I didn't spend on Improved Familiar gets spent on Major Hexes and Crafting feats.
My construct body makes me immune to just about everything that could be thrown at it and anything that gets past it then has to get past my SR 17 THEN my saves. At this point there really is no CR+3 opponent that could even begin to threaten us.
We're Immortal, Untouchable, Unstoppable and still able to interact with the world like a normal person of ANY species we choose. PLUS as my cash resources increase I can constantly update or replace my construct body/unlimited spellbook at will.
Its that same basic nature thing that gets you everytime. Once you jump into it's body, you are no longer the master. You are a guest with in its mind, one it does not have to allow to come forward.
I am not seeing the issue, anyone selfish enough to do this is not gonna be happy when someone just as selfish finds themselves free.
This is an instance of someone giving themselves over to a copy of their inner self. Your goal is to take its body, now ask yourself..would your witch allow another to have their body? If not then your homonculus will not want that either.
A few other points, you are not Immortal, you are in a small body that can be killed, not sure how you are getting untouchable or unstoppable either, where is the Sr coming from?
From what I understand you plan to make the homunculi the new familiar instead of the standard witch familiar?
The homunculi has your basic nature, but it still is not you. It does not have your intellect. You are also assuming that you can take over the opponents. High level monsters have high saves, and magic jar, and trap the soul are expensive.
Actually Magic Jar is only a level 5 spell so it should not be expected to work. Trap the Soul is too expensive to cast at will.
You are in a construct body, but you are not a construct so while the construct is immune to certain things not all those would logically transfer to you. Mind affecting effects come to mind. What I see is a limitation. Constructs are not easy to repair.
As far as no CR +3 opponent I disagree. Many of us make our own NPC's or alter ones from AP's.
You getting a few construct immunities does not make you anywhere near unstoppable. Constantly making a new construct is not cheap either.
PRD:homunculus with more than 2 Hit Dice can be created, but each additional Hit Die adds +2,000 gp to the cost to create.
On top of that there is a D10 HD. Assuming you roll average for the homunculus stats you get 5.5 X 20= 110 hp. It has no DR.
Without getting into how things will go in a real game(with GM made or altered NPC's) I will start with a standard CR 13 which I have never seen as an actual boss.
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Storm Giant CR 13
Melee mwk greatsword +27/+22/+17 (4d6+21/17–20) or 2 slams +26 (2d6+14)
The first 2 attacks should hit even if the last one does not. That is 70 points of damage. If there is a power attack involved it is 94 points. If all the attacks hit you are most likely dead.
Now of course you expect to be in the back behind the frontliners, but the giant has mental stats of Int 16, Wis 20, Cha 15, and is smart enough to try to get as close to you as possible before revealing itself.
Remember this is a stock monster, and not anything special.
Humm the planets must have alined again, me and wraithstrike have been agreeing again this week.
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Its that same basic nature thing that gets you everytime. Once you jump into it's body, you are no longer the master. You are a guest with in its mind, one it does not have to allow to come forward.
I am not seeing the issue, anyone selfish enough to do this is not gonna be happy when someone just as selfish finds themselves free.
This is an instance of someone giving themselves over to a copy of their inner self. Your goal is to take its body, now ask yourself..would your witch allow another to have their body? If not then your homonculus will not want that either.
A few other points, you are not Immortal, you are in a small body that can be killed, not sure how you are getting untouchable or unstoppable either, where is the Sr coming from?
It's not a point of basic nature, it's a CONSTRUCT. A device created that exists strictly to SERVE, instantly. And since it doesn't have a berserk chance it has zero possibility of ever choosing not to obey your commands.
Add to that the way twin soul works makes sure they stay peacefully working together:
The two souls share the surviving body peaceably, can communicate freely, and both retain their ability to think and reason. The host may allow the guest soul to take over the body temporarily or reclaim it as a move action
It's a FAMILIAR, that's where all the SR, better saves, and ability for you to cast any spell you want comes from. Add to that you can customize it with any ability a construct can have permanently. Throw on a golems DR 15/adamantite & Immunity to Magic if you want and laugh at anything that gets thrown at it.
(I love the new construct creation rules from Ultimate Magic)From what I understand you plan to make the homunculi the new familiar instead of the standard witch familiar?
The homunculi has your basic nature, but it still is not you. It does not have your intellect. You are also assuming that you can take over the opponents. High level monsters have high saves, and magic jar, and trap the soul are expensive.
Actually Magic Jar is only a level 5 spell so it should not be expected to work. Trap the Soul is too expensive to cast at will.
You are in a construct body, but you are not a construct so while the construct is immune to certain things not all those would logically transfer to you. Mind affecting effects come to mind. What I see is a limitation. Constructs are not easy to repair.
As far as no CR +3 opponent I disagree. Many of us make our own NPC's or alter ones from AP's.
You getting a few construct immunities does not make you anywhere near unstoppable. Constantly making a new construct is not cheap either.
PRD:homunculus with more than 2 Hit Dice can be created, but each additional Hit Die adds +2,000 gp to the cost to create.
On top of that there is a D10 HD. Assuming you roll average for the homunculus stats you get 5.5 X 20= 110 hp. It has no DR.
Without getting into how things will go in a real game(with GM made or altered NPC's) I will start with a standard CR 13 which I have never seen as an actual boss.
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Storm Giant CR 13
Melee mwk greatsword +27/+22/+17 (4d6+21/17–20) or 2 slams +26 (2d6+14)The first 2 attacks should hit even if the last one does not. That is 70 points of damage. If there is a power attack involved it is 94 points. If all the attacks hit you are most likely dead.
Now of course you expect to be in the back behind the frontliners, but the giant has mental stats of Int 16, Wis 20, Cha 15, and is smart enough to try to get as close to you as possible before revealing itself.
Remember this is a stock monster, and not anything special.
Well first I freely assume that I'll be able to take over 90% of the bodies I see. This is NOT a magic jar or Trap the soul spell.
It's a supernatural ability (bypassing all SR) with the highest scaling DC to resist in the game (10 + 1/2 witch level + int bonus + ability focus) at a -4 to resist and you have to make that Will save THREE times, I'm confident I'll get in.Remember since it's a Supernatural ability it doesn't require a physical body or V,S,M component to use.
Second, remember I'm a hidden passenger inside of the Construct, I can't be targeted by 99% of spells and any effects thrown at us will affect the Construct before it affects me. Plus construct familiars are easy to fix. Just cast cure light wounds on them and that's a spell you can cast on your own, heck use a wand.
(remember as familiars they can be affected by spells that normal constructs can't)
As for your example, how in the world is that going to hit anything flying invisibly 220 ft in the air while a second mind is rapidly dominating its body?
Any single creature thrown at it will either lose to the physical ranged damage from the Homonculus (we all know how dangerous a longbow wielder can be if they have the feats to burn), get possessed by the twin soul power or just crushed by the 30+ Int witch casting SoD spells at them from range.
In other words this only works if the GM acts like the familer is a mindless vessel.
In other words this only works if the GM acts like the familer is a mindless vessel.and in other words, this only fails if the dm acts like similarly aligned familiar will always be betraying its master who gave it life.
I do not see how dm intervention can be a basis for why something is balanced.
And I am not seeing how it is not if you can only break it, by planning to do so from level one and only works if you are allowed to take the set of actions by the GM, means its broke.
The book is silent on if they can even have homuncui and that have to be oked by the GM.
And even if you did allow this, most casters of that level can do things on the same scale {hello lich} and see invisibility is a level 2 spell anyhow. I am just not seeing an endless power loophole here
It's a FAMILIAR, that's where all the SR, better saves, and ability for you to cast any spell you want comes from. Add to that you can customize it with any ability a construct can have permanently. Throw on a golems DR 15/adamantite & Immunity to Magic if you want and laugh at anything that gets thrown at it.
(I love the new construct creation rules from Ultimate Magic)
A golem is a specific type of construct, and the DR 15 and Immunity to Magic are not on the list of alterations in UM. By RAW the homunculus can't get them.
It should also be kept in mind
When designing a new construct, keep in mind that the
above pricing formula only serves as a guideline. As with
magic items, construct pricing remains more art than
science, and like magic items, compare new constructs to
existing ones for guidance. If you’re not sure, err on the
side of a higher price.
So even with GM Fiat allowing you to give golem traits to common constructs, the chance of you building new bodies at will is not something that you can say funds will be around for.
Well first I freely assume that I'll be able to take over 90% of the bodies I see. This is NOT a magic jar or Trap the soul spell.
It's a supernatural ability (bypassing all SR) with the highest scaling DC to resist in the game (10 + 1/2 witch level + int bonus + ability focus) at a -4 to resist and you have to make that Will save THREE times, I'm confident I'll get in.
Remember since it's a Supernatural ability it doesn't require a physical body or V,S,M component to use.
I am now assuming this must be a hex, but even then you can't assume 90% success rate past low levels. What hex does this? I can't seem to find it? Could you post sources from now on?
Second, remember I'm a hidden passenger inside of the Construct, I can't be targeted by 99% of spells and any effects thrown at us will affect the Construct before it affects me. Plus construct familiars are easy to fix. Just cast cure light wounds on them and that's a spell you can cast on your own, heck use a wand.
(remember as familiars they can be affected by spells that normal constructs can't)
If the construct is destroyed you have nowhere to go so you die. It has 110 hp. Cure light spells are not going the key to immortality. You would probably have more hp than the construct anyway, so the bad guy would rather attack the construct than to attack you.
As for your example, how in the world is that going to hit anything flying invisibly 220 ft in the air while a second mind is rapidly dominating its body?
You are assuming you have that type of space available. You are also assuming you are always invisible and flying. Any GM using a monster(supposed challenging) that can't deal with flying and invis isn't trying hard enough past CR 5. Not that it matters, but out of curiosity how are you flying so fast?
Any single creature thrown at it will either lose to the physical ranged damage from the Homonculus (we all know how dangerous a longbow wielder can be if they have the feats to burn), get possessed by the twin soul power or just crushed by the 30+ Int witch casting SoD spells at them from range
1st attack sunder the bow. The twin soul power has a DC of 10+5(1/2 witch level) and maybe +7 modifier to int). *That is a DC of 22. The giant has a will save of 14, and remember you are still only playing with a stock monster. I have not added any modifications that GM's add if they feel the need to challenge a player or any custom made NPC's. You still on tier 1(stock monsters)
*Let's say you have 18 at level 1 and 20 by level 8. You are spending a lot of money rebuilding the homonculus so at best you can afford a +4 headband most likely. Now you are sitting on a 24.
The giant breaks your tiny bow, and then proceeds to handle the construct on round 2.
As for the "any range" issue that is inaccurate.
Undead and outsiders are also issues for you since you can't magic jar them. Outsiders and elementals souls and bodies are one unit so you can't force its soul into the magic jar. Undead don't even have souls so that leaves them out of the equation. These along with dragons make up the majority of high level monsters.
I don't see you as invincible when stock monsters are still competing with you.
edit:I found twin soul, but I don't see that -4 you were talking about.
In other words this only works if the GM acts like the familer is a mindless vessel.and in other words, this only fails if the dm acts like similarly aligned familiar will always be betraying its master who gave it life.
I do not see how dm intervention can be a basis for why something is balanced.
And I am not seeing how it is not if you can only break it, by planning to do so from level one and only works if you are allowed to take the set of actions by the GM, means its broke.
The book is silent on if they can even have homuncui and that have to be oked by the GM.
And even if you did allow this, most casters of that level can do things on the same scale {hello lich} and see invisibility is a level 2 spell anyhow. I am just not seeing an endless power loophole here
I am far from impressed also. When I get to the point where I have to use AoW monsters or build my own NPC's then a PC has my attention. For now at best I might have to modify(change a feat or spells) an existing NPC, but I don't see too much more than that.
I will agree with wraithstrike that this may not be super broken. Because the text in UM that talks about adding other construct abilities from different constructs is sort of a soft rules section(sort of like custom item creation). Its in the section called pricing a new construct. So if your gm is ok with letting you cherry pick construct abilities for your homunculus, it seems very similar to a gm letting you have a custom item.
Though, you can raise your homunculus stats alil and give him an enhancement bonus to armor that I would think would stack with mage armor.
Also, I am having trouble finding the text that tells you how many extra HD you can give to your homunculus.
But either way, there is very little in the trick that specifically requires a gms permission. I have no idea what seeker is talking about there. If you qualify for the craft construct feat, you can take it. If you have both the improved familiar feat and you use craft construct to make a homunculus, you can have a homunculus familiar. I have trouble seeing anything that requires dm permission to work. If you finally cap it off by killing yourself and living in your familiar, I do not see where, you need special dm permission to do any of this.
Sure a dm could railroad you by having your homunculus betray you but I do not see how that is a terribly reasonable thing to do. Also considering a homunculus is a relatively loyal creature(it doesn't like being far away from him) and it goes insane if he dies, I am not sure why a homunculus would betray you ever. Unless your dm was a nasty fellow. In which case I understand completely.
The number of HD is done at the time the construct is created, and is up to the creator. There is no cap on it other than time, and money.
If the enhancement bonus to AC is an armor bonus it won't stack with mage armor, but most constructs have natural armor as the primary type, and that would stack. I don't think the homunculus would betray him either. It seems to be content just to please the creator.
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It's a FAMILIAR, that's where all the SR, better saves, and ability for you to cast any spell you want comes from. Add to that you can customize it with any ability a construct can have permanently. Throw on a golems DR 15/adamantite & Immunity to Magic if you want and laugh at anything that gets thrown at it.
(I love the new construct creation rules from Ultimate Magic)A golem is a specific type of construct, and the DR 15 and Immunity to Magic are not on the list of alterations in UM. By RAW the homunculus can't get them.
It should also be kept in mind
When designing a new construct, keep in mind that the
above pricing formula only serves as a guideline. As with
magic items, construct pricing remains more art than
science, and like magic items, compare new constructs to
existing ones for guidance. If you’re not sure, err on the
side of a higher price.So even with GM Fiat allowing you to give golem traits to common constructs, the chance of you building new bodies at will is not something that you can say funds will be around for.
Well first I freely assume that I'll be able to take over 90% of the bodies I see. This is NOT a magic jar or Trap the soul spell.
It's a supernatural ability (bypassing all SR) with the highest scaling DC to resist in the game (10 + 1/2 witch level + int bonus + ability focus) at a -4 to resist and you have to make that Will save THREE times, I'm confident I'll get in.
Remember since it's a Supernatural ability it doesn't require a physical body or V,S,M component to use.I am now assuming this must be a hex, but even then you can't assume 90% success rate past low levels. What hex does this? I can't seem to find it? Could you post sources from now on?
Second, remember I'm a hidden passenger inside of the Construct, I can't be targeted by 99% of spells and any effects thrown at us will affect the Construct before it affects me. Plus construct familiars are easy to fix....
A). the -4 is from Evil Eye hex, the re-roll 3 times is from Misfortune Hex and Ill-Omen spell.
This is not checkers, this is chess. You have to use ALL your pieces if you want to win.B). The point of this is, as I said, the Homonculus is in control of the body 90% of the time, I'm flitting around the battlefield body hopping and casting. Kill me and I automatically bounce into the Homonculus bodies, kill it and It jumps into whichever body I'm in right now and then over to a new body the next turn. You have to kill us both at the same time.
C). There is nothing in the Magic jar spell that says you can't possess undead or outsiders and since this particular power specifically states there is no receptacle their souls don't have to go there anyway.
D). It's a homonculus, flying is it's normal mode of transport and since it's a construct and doesn't get tired we never have to land if we don't want to. The witch is a pure caster/item builder Greater invisibility, Ring of Invisibility is nothing it can be cast or made in no time.
edit: The speed is 50ft per round, 250 when running. The RANGE of the magic jar spell is 220 ft and that's the number I was referring to.
E). The DC is a hex ability (it is since it's replacing your major hex at 10th), so DC 10 +1/2 witch level=6 +int bonus +10 minimum (20 Int at 1st + 3 for venerable age +4 from Threefold aspect + 3 from level bonuses) +2 for ability focus = 28 DC before throwing on any profane/morale, inherent, luck, etc bonuses.
F). It's not about making a broken build, everything is strictly legal and RAW. This is just about building a character who never wants to die and does everything to avoid it.
Every build on these boards is designed around mapping out what you want to be at x level and accepting the sacrifices it takes to get there.
The number of HD is done at the time the construct is created, and is up to the creator. There is no cap on it other than time, and money.
yeah cause if there is no limit, then that is where I would personally see the issue. Some 100 HD homunculus is gonna be pretty impressive. Thats 25 ability score increases from lvls, 50 feats, 550 hp, and 100 bab. Attach a long bow to this sucker and I have trouble seeing him do poorly with his 20 iterative attacks.
I would wonder where a level 10 character got that much money because if a GM gives me enough money to buy all the items I need and 200000 gp at level 10 the homunculus will be the least of his troubles in such a game. Interative attacks cap at 4 so even with a BAB of 100 he only gets 4 attacks not that it matters since it can solo most anything that is not epic level while the party sits back and watches.
A). the -4 is from Evil Eye hex, the re-roll 3 times is from Misfortune Hex and Ill-Omen spell.
This is not checkers, this is chess. You have to use ALL your pieces if you want to win.B). The point of this is, as I said, the Homonculus is in control of the body 90% of the time, I'm flitting around the battlefield body hopping and casting. Kill me and I automatically bounce into the Homonculus bodies, kill it and It jumps into whichever body I'm in right now and then over to a new body the next turn. You have to kill us both at the same time.
C). There is nothing in the Magic jar spell that says you can't possess undead or outsiders and since this particular power specifically states there is no receptacle their souls don't have to go there anyway.
D). It's a homonculus, flying is it's normal mode of transport and since it's a construct and doesn't get tired we never have to land if we don't want to. The witch is a pure caster/item builder Greater invisibility, Ring of Invisibility is nothing it can be cast or made in no time.
edit: The speed is 50ft per round, 250 when running. The RANGE of the magic jar spell is 220 ft and that's the number I was referring to.E). The DC is a hex ability (it is since it's replacing your major hex at 10th), so DC 10 +1/2 witch level=6 +int bonus +10 minimum (20 Int at 1st + 3 for venerable age +4 from Threefold aspect + 3 from level bonuses) +2 for ability focus = 28 DC before throwing on any profane/morale, inherent, luck, etc bonuses.
F). It's not about making a broken build, everything is strictly legal and RAW. This is just about building a character who never wants to die and does everything to avoid it.
Every build on these boards is designed around mapping out what you want to be at x level and accepting the sacrifices it takes to get there.
A. I can't believe I forgot about evil eye since it was pimp slapping my encounters for about the first 8 levels of Kingmaker.
That is a good combination, but the homonculus is not going to survive 3 rounds to set up the possession power. Not if the GM is taking the gloves off anyway. If I can't drop 110 points of damage over 3 rounds with a CR 13 encounter I need to retire as a GM. I am not an adversarial GM so I don't set out to kill any one character, but the point is that there has never been a time I could not have done so, and I don't see this as an exception.B. You are still assuming that ability autosucceeds. In any event you(the GM) kill the homonculus first assuming the bad guys are intelligent and have the knowledge to figure out/know what is going on.
The reason for that is because it is a free hop with no save. You then leave the witch with some weak low CR monster to inhabit. In an actual game this one is not hard to stop, but on the boards I have no actual build to go off of, and I don't know what my bad guy's resources are and I don't think it is fair to give myself access to every monster in the book since I would not do so in an actual game.
By 12th level I would expect to have some idea of general tactics and probably trap you in a low CR monster though. Killing the homonculus and then you would be the order of operation. Of course the party cleric would just bring you back to life, but you can be killed, and it isn't all that hard with any real effort.
C. prd=By casting magic jar, you place your soul in a gem or large crystal (known as the magic jar), leaving your body lifeless. Then you can attempt to take control of a nearby body, forcing its soul into the magic jar.
The soul and body can not be separated when it comes to outsiders and undead for reasons already given.
I better give proof though
prd=Unlike most living creatures, an outsider does not have a dual nature—its soul and body form one unit.
D.I never knew they could fly. These discussions are always educational. I can't give you the auto-succeed especially at 90% on the possession. That means the monsters fail even on a roll of 18 or higher which is unlikely. If you take the run action you are not doing anything else. You also have to get out of the threatened area safely.
You can teleport(always a chance of going somewhere wrong), dimension door(ends your turn), take the AoO(from a giant is a bad idea). I will admit my gaming philosophy of invis not being all that great past level 5 in my games is influencing things. I know as a player I have a solution by then so it only makes sense for NPC's to also. The same goes for flying.
E. I thought the witch was level 10. In that case I would have chosen a CR 15 monster. Venerable age is up to GM discretion. Most don't allow you to start at an old age. Threefold Aspect is a 24 hour duration spell so I can't really deny that being up, but the monster's will saves just went up also if the witch is now level 12. Making a DC 28 is not that hard for CR 15 monster. Ok, so it is 50%, but that is still a stock monster, and that is assuming the GM allows you to start at venerable. If I have to take a special case into account then I am not really to worried about the combo.
F. I understand it is not about a broken build, but it is still far from being as hard to kill as you think it is. I think it does well in CR appropriate, but so do most builds. It will be in the tougher fights that the test will be given.
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A). the -4 is from Evil Eye hex, the re-roll 3 times is from Misfortune Hex and Ill-Omen spell.
This is not checkers, this is chess. You have to use ALL your pieces if you want to win.B). The point of this is, as I said, the Homonculus is in control of the body 90% of the time, I'm flitting around the battlefield body hopping and casting. Kill me and I automatically bounce into the Homonculus bodies, kill it and It jumps into whichever body I'm in right now and then over to a new body the next turn. You have to kill us both at the same time.
C). There is nothing in the Magic jar spell that says you can't possess undead or outsiders and since this particular power specifically states there is no receptacle their souls don't have to go there anyway.
D). It's a homonculus, flying is it's normal mode of transport and since it's a construct and doesn't get tired we never have to land if we don't want to. The witch is a pure caster/item builder Greater invisibility, Ring of Invisibility is nothing it can be cast or made in no time.
edit: The speed is 50ft per round, 250 when running. The RANGE of the magic jar spell is 220 ft and that's the number I was referring to.E). The DC is a hex ability (it is since it's replacing your major hex at 10th), so DC 10 +1/2 witch level=6 +int bonus +10 minimum (20 Int at 1st + 3 for venerable age +4 from Threefold aspect + 3 from level bonuses) +2 for ability focus = 28 DC before throwing on any profane/morale, inherent, luck, etc bonuses.
F). It's not about making a broken build, everything is strictly legal and RAW. This is just about building a character who never wants to die and does everything to avoid it.
Every build on these boards is designed around mapping out what you want to be at x level and accepting the sacrifices it takes to get there.
A. I can't believe I forgot about evil eye since it was pimp slapping my encounters for about the first 8 levels of Kingmaker.
That is a good combination, but the homonculus is...
You keep thinking about this like it's the Magic Jar spell, it isn't and it doesn't work that way.
They can persist in this state indefinitely, or the guest can return to its own body (if available) by touch, transfer into a suitable vessel (such as a clone), or take over another body as if using magic jar (with NO receptacle)
When the witch uses this power your soul just goes away. Evicted. Permanently.
There is NO receptacle, you are just kicked out of the body with no place to go. If the GM wants to make something up about it coming back as a vengeful ghost go for it but as listed a soul with no body to inhabit DIES and goes on to the great beyond.This is the part that makes the build as powerful as I say it is.
And since you keep the Magic Jar power to sense Hit Die strength of every target in 220 feet as well as the power to see through the familiars eyes you will always know which target to jump into.
And remember we get 2 standard actions a round now. 1 for the familiar and another for the Witch. Remember the Familiar is in control of the body and gets his action and the witch doesn't need a body to use a hex so he can do it while the familiar is doing his action.
Also it's not 3 rounds to do this, it's one round (and a surprise rnd).
Here's how the trick goes.
Surprise rnd: while invisible you hit the target with a Evil Eye hex while your familiar hits the target with an ill omen spell from the wand of Ill Omen you made.
Round one: Attempt to possess while imp flies in circles out of reach.
Here's my favorite part if it resists the possession attempt you just try again while the Homonculus keeps hitting it with the wand every round until it takes.
And for the outsiders & undead that's wrong.
Shadow demons can use magic jar as a spell-like ability.
And demonic possession is all over the place, so I'd say that demons/devils/all outsiders can use (and be used by) magic jar. They can in PFRPG and in Golarion, in any case.
The spell itself specifically states you can jump into sentient undead.
This a 12th+ level character focused on immortality, he will age and inevitably earn the Venerable age bonuses eventually.
Now lets put some math to this:
The average save for CR 15 is +13 to +16 giving it a base 40% chance of failure.
Add the -4 from Evil Eye and that drops to a 20% chance.
Add the Ill Omen/Misfortune and that is worth at least 10% more.
That's why I say 90% of the time I succeed, equal CR challenges have no chance.