So viruses are Evil?
So viruses are Evil?
In my view of alignment? Yeah. Anything that, if left to its own devices, would leave a world a lifeless husk, eventually consuming itself, is evil.
Of course, because in real life, virus are specialized ("this virus eats only bacteria, so it makes water better for consumption") and thus occupy a role in the ecosystem, they are also important.But I could say the same of "evil" aligned individuals too. Sometimes you need a huge a%&~~!* to do a job no one else would for the sake of everyone.
Most "always evil" race tropes try to emulate a virus - asexual reproduction, lack of culture, follow the single purpose of destruction.
Pick any sampling of our global literature, the Hebrew Testaments, the Christian Bible, the Koran, The Vedas, It's a trope that as the site says, is older than dirt. The stories of angelic beings falling to wickedness abound, such as God losing a third(!) of his angels to his Adversary. You don't see anything of the reverse.Source for that? I genuinely am intrigued where that trope came from.Can't good "corrupt" evil just the same way evil can good?No, because alignment is not a simple revolving door. It's far far easier to sink, than it is to rise, alignment wise.You mean stories of redemption? That's a load of crap, there are plenty of those.
It is usually presented as rarer or more exceptional, I'll grant you, but it's hardly unheard of, even among demons and monsters.
I'm going to call your hand. Show me ONE example of a demon redeemed in the Bible, or Koran, or whatever.
Redemption of mortals? Sure, but it also makes clear why the redeemer is such an exceptional person. He's doing things which aren't common practise.
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HerePick any sampling of our global literature, the Hebrew Testaments, the Christian Bible, the Koran, The Vedas, It's a trope that as the site says, is older than dirt. The stories of angelic beings falling to wickedness abound, such as God losing a third(!) of his angels to his Adversary. You don't see anything of the reverse.Source for that? I genuinely am intrigued where that trope came from.Can't good "corrupt" evil just the same way evil can good?No, because alignment is not a simple revolving door. It's far far easier to sink, than it is to rise, alignment wise.You mean stories of redemption? That's a load of crap, there are plenty of those.
It is usually presented as rarer or more exceptional, I'll grant you, but it's hardly unheard of, even among demons and monsters.
I'm going to call your hand. Show me ONE example of a demon redeemed in the Bible, or Koran, or whatever.
Redemption of mortals? Sure, but it also makes clear why the redeemer is such an exceptional person. He's doing things which aren't common practise.
Buddhism isn't exactly a codified religion, nor was it intended to be such by it's founder, who intened to share a philosophy of enlightenment, not be worshipped as a god.
You're not going to find it in the Abrahamic religions which are much more strict about good/evil, and the conduct that divides both.
You said or whatever so I gave you a source of a Demon turning good.
Back in 2e, Mummies were stated to be positive-energy undead.
Relevant quotes:
"On occasion, perhaps due to powerful evil magic or perhaps because the individual was so greedy in life that he refuses to give up his treasure, the spirit of the mummified person will not die, but taps into energy from the Positive Material plane and is transformed into an undead horror.
Because of their magical properties, mummies exist on both Prime and Positive Material planes."
How much sense that does or doesn't make I leave up to the individual.
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I'm going to call your hand. Show me ONE example of a demon redeemed in the Bible, or Koran, or whatever.
Redemption of mortals? Sure, but it also makes clear why the redeemer is such an exceptional person. He's doing things which aren't common practise.
Well, while Dread Knight already posted one good example...
Here
I'll also notethat I said demons and monsters and direct you to a few of each shown here, here, or here.
Buddhism isn't exactly a codified religion, nor was it intended to be such by it's founder, who intened to share a philosophy of enlightenment, not be worshipped as a god.
You're not going to find it in the Abrahamic religions which are much more strict about good/evil, and the conduct that divides both.
Uh...your original post referenced the Vedas, which seems to strongly imply you weren't just looking for Abrahamic religious examples.
So...picking on Buddhism seems kinda unwarranted. Whether a religion or not, it's a philosophy and a mythological tradition, and thus a valid example of 'beliefs people have in the real world' which is what we were talking about.
And you're right about Abrahamic religion to some degree...but even then, they definitely get mentioned above.
You said or whatever so I gave you a source of a Demon turning good.
Yeah...I think that example's totally valid.
They can also arise from the corpses of cannibals, who with the exception of "Donner Party" scenarios, are not going to be the greatest people anyway.Donner Party scenarios as... a scenario where everyone involved is white? Or do you believe that people commonly engaged in cannibalism 'cause it was fun?
Most "cannibalistic" tribes in the real world eat the flesh of deceased enemies, which, in my opinion, is not really a mark of character other than saying this guy is hella thrifty, no point in letting a good pound of flesh go to waste just because it was a "human".
That's going to all come down to the flavor of the setting though. In Golarion, and how I would run it, being a ghoul isn't like being a guy who has a craving for a cheeseburger. You might start off neutral, but you are going to have a deep, never satiated hunger for flesh, specifically humanoid flesh. It doesn't matter how much you down, it will be ever present.So? Dude wants humanoid flesh. All life can only be sustained by more life.
I could see the point of "but this guy cannot subsist in an ecosystem because it is fully parasitary and will destroy it"... perhaps, perhaps being a parasite makes you evil internally because you can only, in the balance of things, destroy rather than create. I could buy that.
First off, by Donner Party, I meant driven by necessity. Where the choice is to consume the dead or die. Some real world cultural cannibalism is believed to be driven by this. If your eating people for kicks, and not a rare/uncommon ritual use, then you are probably not a good person.
Secondly, again this isn't I skipped breakfast and I am hungry cravings. This is like a drug addict looking for a fix. There is a reason why Heroine and other hardcore drugs are a bane on civilization. Imagine that, only if the user could satisfy that fix not by stealing to buy drugs, but instead by eating a person.
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Anyone who says there's no redemption in the Bible is a troll.
Anyone who says there's no redemption in the Bible is a troll.
I agree. The bible is all about redemption and the journey taken to get it.
Anyone who says there's no redemption in the Bible is a troll.I agree. The bible is all about redemption and the journey taken to get it.
Huh. I didn't get that out of it at all. I mean there's redemption in there sure but it's really just one guy's thing. And the path to it goes from essentially impossible in the first act, to incredibly easy in the second act. Like roll down a hill easy.
It fits nicely with the general idea behind LotR's army of the dead too.Why does everyone bring this example up in trying to justify "good" undead?
For one thing they weren't. They were cursed to their status because they had deserted the people they were sworn to aid in battle, leaving them to be defeated by forces of the Great Enemy, Morgoth. If anyone wandered into their caves, who did not have the key to their release, they murdered them. Their only motivation in aiding Aragorn was the promise of their release, he being the noble guy he was, fulfilled that promise after using them to overpower first the Black Numenoreans, and then on the battle field where they were needed.
To me a White Necromancer isn't simply a copy of a Black Necromancer who happens to wear a white hat.
I actually agree with you. They were cursed undead that became that way because they were cowardly enough to abandon their king and kingdom. They weren't good. They didn't help him out of the kindness of their heart. They helped him to gain their freedom from the curse.
I still say that animate dead shouldn't be an evil spell. Heck, in second edition dnd they actually have a whole chapter in the necromancers guide that goes over what types of necromancy would be evil, what would be considered neutral, and what would be considered good (black, gray, and white necromancy respectively). Animate dead (not create undead and the like) was a neutral spell. They reasoned that the act of casting the spell wasn't evil because you were essentially making a mindless servant out of an already dead being (and that the being wasn't using the body and you weren't corrupting life because it is dead anyway) and that only the orders you give it would make it "evil" or "good".
Wizards of the Coast believed this. I am not using this to justify against Paizo's ruling and I can say that they made Pathfinder their own game, but Pathfinder did come from Dnd and I believe the reasoning is sound.