I have looked over the class a bit, and I just can't make heads or tails on how they are supposed to work. Seems like an amalgam of a bunch of abilities that do not work together at all; much like the Monk.
So any suggestions?
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actually they can be played as battle field controlers, an awesome ranged class, a great self buff melee, or anything in between
since they are casters , you can change up alot of what you plan todo that day based on extract choice
extracts only take 1 minute to prepare, so you can effectively spontaneously cast any spell know, with a minute prep time
There's basically two ways:
- Attack with bombs (and other ranged weapons, if you run out)
- Use a Strength mutagen and attack with a melee weapon
What's not to get? There are some formulas you can use for buffing etc., but that's about it.
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Yeah, it appears as if there's a lot of fiddly abilities that do not mix well. In fact, you are absolutely right in that many of the features don't mix and mash into a synergistic whole, instead you have to pick and choose what you want to excel in and what to not bother with.
Fer instance, I'm playing a fifth level alchemist in Serpent's Skull and my areas of expertise are melee and skillmonkeying. I do both very well, since early on the abilities that wouldn't contribute to that role were given only meagre support. There's no real need for a melee warrior to concentrate on poisons or crafting alchemical gear. It's there if you want it, but like bombs they aren't necessary for victory. Mutagens, buff extracts(so many buffs...!) and proper stat distribution and armor are enough.
Naturally, as with most classes, Paizo has also given support to those of us who don't need bombs or poisons by adding a bunch of archetypes to the class. Vivisectionist gets rid of bombs, though I feel they can benefit a melee character thanks to dispel bombs and cloudkill bombs and poison immunity(fight in the cloud!), and adds sneak attack progression instead. Better? You dedice, but it does bring about the same maneuver issues that rogues have to struggle with to active the thing. Similarly, there's archetypes to get rid of poison abilities(some or all). Most of these things stack to boot!
So yeah, it's an advanced class to be sure, but a successful one.
Without quoting Muser, I take the opposite stance on Alchemist. For me, it's just a re-skinned Warlock; it's all about the bombs, and I find myself just not caring about the mutagen ability.
It's very much the magical Rogue; grow and develop, and pick your level-granted abilities to customize your style.
I haven't even looked at archetypes, as my current character is not an alchemist.
The only alchemist I've played so far mademe fall in love with the class. I was a switch hitter, able to do it cause of a really good stat array, but I loved it. you can be range, Melee, Both, Support (with the right feats/discoveries, and everything in between
Unlike the Monk, the Alchemist can actually function extremely well when specializing on only a selective few of it's abilities.
Even more so in that you can even choose which way to go and still be great!
My favorite is the "mad bomber".
He is an Gnome for extra bombs and earlier fire damage (alternate traits). He has high dex and int and uses the mutagen to get even more int or dex and uses his elixirs to buff his AC to almost absurd levels so he can point blank shot all the time (AC 30+ at Level 6). His feats are divided between extra discoveries and ranged attack feats. This makes him a good blaster at Level 1-6 and allows him to go nova at 7+.
Also possible and very viable is the switch hitter.
This is usually an Half Orc (toothy) who takes extra discoveries like hell because besides boosting his bombs in a selective way (clouds, sonic bombs), he also boosts his mutagen. This way he can apply status effects via his bombs while moving towards his target and then let loose with mutagen and natural attacks.
Finally a fully close combat oriented Alchemist takes everything that makes him a better melee combatant and neglects bombs fully. He also is able to be a decent to great party buffer by handing out his elixirs and being very action effective in this way.
In short, the Alchemist is great because he offers at least three very powerful "archetypes".
Unlike the Monk, the Alchemist can actually function extremely well when specializing on only a selective few of it's abilities.
Even more so in that you can even choose which way to go and still be great!
My favorite is the "mad bomber".
He is an Gnome for extra bombs and earlier fire damage (alternate traits). He has high dex and int and uses the mutagen to get even more int or dex and uses his elixirs to buff his AC to almost absurd levels so he can point blank shot all the time (AC 30+ at Level 6). His feats are divided between extra discoveries, that boost his bombs damage and utility, and ranged attack feats. This makes him a good blaster at Level 1-6 and allows him to go nova at 7+ potentially being able to do absurd amounts of damage in a very short time.
Also possible and very viable is the switch hitter.
This is usually an Half Orc (toothy) who takes extra discoveries like hell because besides boosting his bombs in a selective way (clouds, sonic bombs), he also boosts his mutagen. This way he can apply status effects via his bombs while moving towards his target and then let loose with mutagen and natural attacks.
Finally a fully close combat oriented Alchemist takes everything that makes him a better melee combatant and neglects bombs fully. He also is able to be a decent to great party buffer by handing out his elixirs and being very action effective in this way.
In short, the Alchemist is great because he offers at least three very powerful "archetypes".
Like a xylophone?
Greg
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I've found the Alchemist to be a pretty good character for a low number party.
Depending on the discoveries you take the Alchemist can be a solid party healer.
Depending on the skill points you take he can be a good rogue.
Depending on the bomb feats you choose he can be good at crowd control and booming.
Depending on your mutagen focus and armor choices he can be a good melee character.
A lot of people are put off by the versatility and point out the fact that if you wanted to do these things you can arguably do them BETTER by focusing on a different class. Cleric, Rogue, Wizard, Fighter... but to me the beauty of the Alchemist is that while you're not a specialized, you're a specialized generalist.
If you've only got a 3 person party and one of those people is playing an Alchemist, that player can tailor his character to shore up the parties weak spots through naturally developing game play.
Alchemists are like mad genius jacks-of-all-trades. They're not the most powerful at ANYTHING (aside from poisons and alchemical item making) but they're good at a LOT of things. They might be the single most versatile class that Pathfinder has produced in terms of niche filling.
We have an Alchemist in our KM campaign, and she does a bang-up job as a set-artillery piece. She opens up her basket and it's bombs away.
In terms of damage per round alchemists are pretty close to the top of the list. Bombs use touch attack, deal splash damage, can come in all energy types, can be used with two-weapon fighting, and with the Dex mutagen or Int cognatogen can be buffed ridiculously easy.
I've got a switch-hitter/poisoner going for Carrion Crown and so far he's been very effective (outside of the 7 Cha, which wasn't helpful in town). Use bombs at range, and once they're in close drink a mutagen and get to work with a morningstar and poison. Don't actually have the poison yet because I'm broke, but we're fighting undead so thats ok.
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I've got a 7th lvl Alchemist/Vivisectionist in Serpent's Skull (SK) right now and am enjoying it a lot. I've focussed on melee while also running support. I'm running with 3 attacks at 1d8+6+4d6 sneak attack a round with an AC i can easilly get to 26 quickly. It would be higher but SK is fairly low-loot.
I'm having a blast and planning on continueing into the Master Chymist PrC.
I also know the Barb/Rogue in our party is enjoying my enlarge and shield infusion a lot! A raging, sneak attacking barb with a 15 foot reach is nothing to sneeze at.
Some weak points I've noticed in this build are a low will save and hp that is a little low for a front-liner. I keep the healing oracle rather busy.
If you do plan on going melee I recommend using Ultimate Magic a lot and I'm betting Ultimate Combat will have even more options.
I'm playing a crafting genius for my alchemist. He has a skill in every crafting skill in the book except painting, and picked up master craftsman and craft wondrous item and craft arms and armor. In combat, he either bombs or poisons for good damage, and outside of combat (with his ring of sustanance) makes magical and mundane items all day. The 15 minute adventuring day is a thing of the past for this guy.
He loved making things so much, I just recently got him the lesser simulacrum power, and he makes copies of himself and the rest of the party. He is kinda like that clay molding bad guy from naruto now that I think about it, although he doesn't just stick to explosives. He is the group healbot as well.
Right now he is making an alchemical flying carpet. I love playing this guy. I can't wait to start causing mayhem with his simulticrums of himself and the rest of the party.
He was considered the group's strongest member for a while, until the half orc ranger hit level 9 or so, and because I quit emphasizing the bombs and just made items for the group. Now they all do well. It is the most satisfying character I've made for Pathfinder yet, (out of the 4).
I've got a 7th lvl Alchemist/Vivisectionist in Serpent's Skull (SK) right now and am enjoying it a lot. I've focussed on melee while also running support. I'm running with 3 attacks at 1d8+6+4d6 sneak attack a round with an AC i can easilly get to 26 quickly. It would be higher but SK is fairly low-loot.
I'm having a blast and planning on continueing into the Master Chymist PrC.
I also know the Barb/Rogue in our party is enjoying my enlarge and shield infusion a lot! A raging, sneak attacking barb with a 15 foot reach is nothing to sneeze at.
Some weak points I've noticed in this build are a low will save and hp that is a little low for a front-liner. I keep the healing oracle rather busy.
If you do plan on going melee I recommend using Ultimate Magic a lot and I'm betting Ultimate Combat will have even more options.
I'm playing a Master Chymist now myself. He's a 15th level character, 7 levels of Alchemist/8 levels of Master Chymist and one thing I've learned...
WAIT FOR TENTH LEVEL before going into Master Chymist. You have to have a combined 16th level to access the most useful Advanced Mutations (you only get 5, one at every even level) and so you really want to be able to go 16, 18, 20 to get the best if your goal is to make a Melee focused Chymist.
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There's basically two ways:
- Attack with bombs (and other ranged weapons, if you run out)
- Use a Strength mutagen and attack with a melee weapon
What's not to get? There are some formulas you can use for buffing etc., but that's about it.
I would add a third,
And if you have Ultimate Magic:
There's basically two ways:
- Attack with bombs (and other ranged weapons, if you run out)
- Use a Strength mutagen and attack with a melee weapon
What's not to get? There are some formulas you can use for buffing etc., but that's about it.I would add a third,
Mixing the two for a switch hitter build that does pretty tolerable at both.
I meant to implicitly suggest "both" and "neither" were possible. ;-)
And if you have Ultimate Magic:
Rogue replacement, sneak attacking with claws and teeth.
That's basically "attack with a melee weapon" in my book.
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There's basically two ways:
- Attack with bombs (and other ranged weapons, if you run out)
- Use a Strength mutagen and attack with a melee weapon
What's not to get? There are some formulas you can use for buffing etc., but that's about it.I would add a third,
Mixing the two for a switch hitter build that does pretty tolerable at both. I meant to implicitly suggest "both" and "neither" were possible. ;-)
That's basically "attack with a melee weapon" in my book.And if you have Ultimate Magic:
Rogue replacement, sneak attacking with claws and teeth.
I guess I should have said "Take a Dexterity Mutagen and be a finesse guy who sneak attacks three times a round".
Which I think it a bit different from going the brute route. I guess it's splitting hairs.
Fair enough; make that 2.5 ways to play an alchemist (not including combinations and permutations thereof).
Someone suggested using the bombs as melee weapons:
Using the Catch of Guard feat you get, using the bombs as melee weapons (precise bomb lewts you ignore blowing self up).
It was in the Hulk topic.
"Bombs are thrown splash weapons but Catch off-guard allows you to use anything as a melee weapon, with the precise bomb discovery you could designate your square as an explosion free square and smash an opponent with the bomb at hand... kinda like the subtle gamma radiation that emits from Hulk's body when he strikes stuff. (As seen at the Ultimate Avengers Animated Movie, while smashing Vibranium-made Alien spaceships)"
So you get powerful punches when you "strike".
I also play an alchemist. He's a vivsectionist. He uses alchemal items including splash weapons and has alchemal remidies for himself and the party when things go wrong. It is interesting to play of the "alcemy" base in alchemist for me. Handing out strange potions to party members, lobbing flasks of acid or holy water when out of melee range, and flying around on bat wings when mutated are all fun. He isn't the DPR king, but versitile enough to be useful. He never runs out of things to do in combat, and doesn't get hurt easily.