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I had a lot of insightful and helpful posts in the previous thread. I'd like to take some advice from one of those posters and start this thread.
What would make HLP easier to run (GMs perspective)?
What would make HLP easier to play (Player's perspective)?
Please share some hints, tips, and tricks you use, or think would benefit making HLP not as difficult as it is, at least, perceived to be.
When I'm running a Face-to-Face (F2F) game, players having multiple actions to resolve on their turn tends to complicate matters. Eidolons, animal companions, etc. are prime culprits but so are all those iterative attacks that seldom hit.
I've house ruled the Vital Strike feat chain into the combat mechanics as one step to cut down on action bloat.
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Limit the time players have to decide what to do during combat.
Increase some skill DCs
Have players calculate EVERYTHING prior to combat, and then they just have to roll dice.
Have calculators handy
Realize that 12+ play is very different from 1-12 play and play it the way it's supposed to be played.
Have players calculate EVERYTHING prior to combat, and then they just have to roll dice.
Have calculators handy
Sounds like a new 12+ super duper character sheet would be a benefit and a guide on how to use it. For example those 4 attack lines on a normal sheet, instead of 4 different weapons set it up to encourage write 4 different attack styles with said weapon.
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Sounds like a new 12+ super duper character sheet would be a benefit and a guide on how to use it. For example those 4 attack lines on a normal sheet, instead of 4 different weapons set it up to encourage write 4 different attack styles with said weapon.Have players calculate EVERYTHING prior to combat, and then they just have to roll dice.
Have calculators handy
I don't use character sheets anymore, but that's a good idea. I type mine out in the statblock format Paizo uses for the Bestiary. But, I like to type out the different attack options in the combat section. For example:
Melee +1 dwarven waraxe (+13/+8, 1d10+8/x3)
Melee +1 dwarven waraxe (+11/+6, 1d10+12/x3); power attack
That is from one of my current PbP characters. That, and the statblock format, help me to reference my character and his capabilities very quickly.
A table of expected attack bonuses, damage per round, HP, AC, and saves *for PCs,* and tips on quickly adjusting monsters to accommodate optimization.
A laptop and a dice roller.
Pregenerated maps.
Pregenerated NPCs.
For that last one, I think a NPC gallery gathered from this boards' gm's campaigns could be useful. I mentionned it in a previous thread and it didn't raise enthusiasm though.
High-level adventure paths would make it easier, too...
I had a lot of insightful and helpful posts in the previous thread. I'd like to take some advice from one of those posters and start this thread.
What would make HLP easier to run (GMs perspective)?
What would make HLP easier to play (Player's perspective)?
Please share some hints, tips, and tricks you use, or think would benefit making HLP not as difficult as it is, at least, perceived to be.
Different people have different issues with high level play. I think listing the problems would a good place to start.
My observation is that casters can pretty much circumvent most challenges unless the player "plays along". Scry and Die is a good example of that.
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My observation is that casters can pretty much circumvent most challenges unless the player "plays along". Scry and Die is a good example of that.
Then a list of common and semi mundane protection would be useful.
- a lead foil will stop several kind of divinations. Having a lair in a red lead mine will have the same effect?
- in the 1st and 2nd edition it wasn't possible to pass ethereally through a living entity. A ivy covered house was vulnerable only for the free portions of the house (doors and windows essentially). It is way easier to ward the smaller surfaces that the whole house.
A "green" house hidden under a grassy knoll would be invulnerable to ethereal penetration?
- again 1rst and 2nd edition: gorgon blood in the mortar would block extraplanar movement.
The whole Scry and die tactic work only if the target don't take any precaution.
You were in the thread about extorting wishes from efreeti. There were plenty of suggestions on how to block that kind of tactic in it.
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I recently had a beer-fueled talk with my players (I'm the resident GM) about what happens after the "manageable HLP", which is something that in the general opinion happens at about 13th level.
We are playing RPGs since the late '80s, and the d20 in its various incarnations has been our system of choice since 2001.
The critical points we agreed upon are:
- buffing/debuffing layers of different modificators, enhancements, spell protections, etc. While we never arrived to the ludicrous point - whoever has played Baldur's Gate 2 knows what I'm talking about, even if it was 2nd Ed - the game loses speed and it starts to be a burden.
- grinding (too) high numbers of HPs through iterative attacks and having high-level spell DCs not scaling to the equiparable attack modifiers (eg. the save mods are too damn high). Most frequent cause of grind/boredom, when two particularly nasty encounters in the same evening - and it could happen! - eat up all of the gaming time available.
- a general tendency of the game, enhanced by rules bloat, to eat up players' resources. The explanation to this feeling is quite complex (and honestly, it defies my ability to put it in words without using my native language), but it comes up to this: at a certain pojnt, planning the character development, evaluating the choices, and managing the feats/abilities/powers available, becomes a burdensome task. The players have the feeling that they have to handle the rule system 60% of the time and actually play the game the remaining 40%.
While these numbers are pretty much pulled out of thin air, the gut feeling stays the same. The rules, through insidious ways, seem to take precedence over the game and the progression of the story.
While we are all very happy with the fantasy feeling, level of detail and flexibility offered by the system (3.X to PFRPG), these inherent shortcomings are starting to feel a bit too much.
There's a longing for something less "abusive" of player's resources (the d100 used in CoC has been named by most of the guys).
You were in the thread about extorting wishes from efreeti. There were plenty of suggestions on how to block that kind of tactic in it.
I just brought that up in another thread since a player is in a power game where people are getting free levels, and basically having an arms race.
What I would like to see:
1. Less spells that render tactics completely useless.
Freedom of Movement renders useless grab, snatch, and hold spells or auras. This eliminates some of the more highly effective tactics of high level huge or bigger monstrous creatures.
Death Ward makes undead pretty useless. This could be obviated by making negative levels an immediate save rather than automatic.
2. Tighten Saves: The save gap at high level is far too wide. Making saves autofail if the bad save. DCs can be built up high enough where for your average PC even the good save is not an easy success.
3. Better vetting of spells: Auto-fail spells should be vetted. It really ruins the game if the creature has no chance to defend against a spell that completely trivializes the encounter.
4. Better monster design that takes into account action economy of party vs. monster. It would make it easier to use single, huge monster BBEGs against parties and not have them get housed.
5. A higher stat starting point for PCs and thus for monsters. If you deviate from the 15 point buy basis for PC design, the monsters require re-design a great deal of the time. It would be better if they started under the presumption of a higher stat point total to begin with.
Our group is only at 3rd level and this is my first Pathfinder game (GM). I don't know how I would run our low-level game without a tool such as Hero Lab to handle 90% of the calculations for me. Even with such a tool, I still find myself using my notepad to track buffs/debuffs routinely during encounters.
At 3rd level the pathfinder PCs are a lot more powerful than AD&D 1e PCs were at the same level. Maybe more people could post helpful tools such as custom spreadsheets etc that help the GM/Players manage all the crunch of the system.
I believe that there is no way around the slowdown with so many options opening up to the players as you progress (other than using tools to offset some of it). However, my players don't seem to mind the slowdown so much. They enjoy picking and choosing their options before/during the encounters. Also, as the characters progress they are much more invested in them and WANT to take additional time to make the right choices and keep their characters alive.
For my group we find Pathfinder to be 40% Roleplaying and 60% Tactical Warfare. This is only because the encounters take much longer than any other part of the game due to the many options. A 3 round combat encounter can literally take our group 1 hour to get through. But like I said, no one seems to mind it as everyone is pouring over their character sheets reviewing the options. And also everyone seems to be having fun which is why we meet twice a week in the first place...to have fun.
I would suggest, as part of the discussion of what would make HLP easier, that some of it focuses on what makes it interesting, then use the results as a grid to evaluate whether a fix makes it both easier and interesting.
I know it sounds simple and obvious, but in my experience, it only is in theory. For example, if you mention versatility or complexity instead of high stakes and an epic feeling, you'll get different fixes.
And then you get back to d20, and whether the underlying mechanics can support the elements that make it interesting. Because if it doesn't support it, then you're better off looking for another system.
When I was playing Vampire, The Masquerade, I liked how some of the grand scale adventure was taken care of, and found the rules supported it. At the same time, some of the more tactical aspects were not handled as well, and we kept building new house rules and systems, until 3rd edition came along and we found we could use better mechanics to support combat. And to be honest, even at the table we had players who prefered different things. Some liked the tactical aspects of combat (like a boardgame), while others preferred the roleplaying aspects (we're back to the classical dichotomy).
The challenge of Pathfinder HLP is to achieve both aspects.
If I were to get a group into higher level territory, I would probably remove a few spells, or provide "old wisdom" ways around them (like some have suggested earlier). I would probably replace the iterative sequence by something easier to handle. I would probably put a cap on the menagerie factor, either by removing certain classes (druids, summoners) or allowing only the variants that don't add creatures.
Now I feel like trying it...
I have run multiple games at 12+, as well as one into epic levels. The issues I have found generally come from the PCs themselves and how bad they want to "optimize" things.
If you have players who are optimizing everything, then yes, as a DM, you have to make adjustments. When I found that certain monsters were too easy, I started making changes to them. Giving them max hps and then doubling it was a start. If the group was using buff after buff, I gave the monster a dispel magic effect on it's attack on occasion (like dragon breath, every 1d4 rounds).
While gear can certainly become a problem, usually the biggest problem are spells. I encouraged my players to talk to me about every spell they were even contemplating taking, and what they intended to do with it. This isn't for some micromanage fetish, but because as a DM I am entitled to keep my game balanced and fair for everyone. If someone said "I'm taking Major Creation to create an unlimited supply of super poison." I would probably just say "No. I won't let it work that way." or at the very least "If you are doing that, then understand, I will either give my monsters better FORT saves, or they will have access to poisons on that level as well."
As far as ability boosting or buff tracking...I pushed that on to the players. As a DM, I can't keep track of multiple players abilities/spells/items all the time AND know my monsters.
In higher level play, a DM must begin to trust his players more and more. That is very hard, as some players just want to screw with the game and make themselves gods. As a DM, you make adjustments then.
The one problem that is very difficult to avoid, is one that someone else mentioned....tons of creatures/summons happening all the time. I haven't dealt with this issue greatly, so I can only say what I would do. "You have X seconds to give me an action for that creature, else he loses the action for the turn." If it got too bad (and he was keeping up in time) I would simply talk to the player and tell him that he is ruining the experience for others.
Remember, Role Playing is supposed to be fun. When one or more players are taking the fun from everyone else, then it is the DM's job to step up and talk to that person.
Be flexible, and be willing to change the rules to fit the characters That's my biggest piece of advice for higher levels.
Actually there are groups that haven't got any problems when running high level adventures purely because the players don't use all the options that they could use.
So the biggest problem are the many many options that may befuddle players and GMs alike.
Really there is no single way to go here except to limit play to level 12 (entirely viable).
A few hints for the GM:
- read the spells to prepare for gamebreakers
- force a timelimit upon the players in combat situations
- try to distance yourself from ruleplay and go towards roleplay
- resist the christmas tree (giving the players all they want in terms of characetr enhancements such as gear and spells)
- prepare combats thoroughly (think of tactics, of presentation and of documentation beforehand)
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I don't think anything can make high level play easier, because (from my perspective) the issues with high level play are intractable without completely altering the game and turning it into 4E. In fact I would go as far to say that 4E is 4E because it tried to solve this problem.
The first issue is simply game complexity. As one goes up in level, the sheer number of options available become increasingly unwieldy, and bog the game down. Some people, I feel, are responding to this issue by basically just insulting anyone who thinks this -- this topic has been discussed a lot over the last several days, and I've read a lot of comments that basically gloss over this problem by saying that GMs and players that find the game unwieldy at high levels are some combination of lazy and/or incompetent. That's not really a counterargument so much as it is making fun of people.
But the reality is that the huge number of buffs and debuffs that can be tossed around in a single round can get overwhelming. It leads to players and GMs being forced to recalculate attack roll bonuses on the fly, with enough different modifiers that some people need a spreadsheet. It's even more difficult if you enjoy "beer & pretzels" style gaming, and may have been drinking.
The second issue is a metagame issue. Yes, there are tactics that can nerf fairly obvious tactics like Scry & Fry, like having a lead-lined castle covered in ivy, etc. But the more of those tactics that are introduced, the less and less the game world looks like what many people imagine it looks like.
That, I think, is the problem for a lot of people. By the time you're done taking into account all these high level issues, you end up with a world that just doesn't feel like the classic fantasy setting. Or you end up with a world that just plain doesn't make sense.
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I don't think anything can make high level play easier, because (from my perspective) the issues with high level play are intractable without completely altering the game and turning it into 4E. In fact I would go as far to say that 4E is 4E because it tried to solve this problem.
The first issue is simply game complexity. As one goes up in level, the sheer number of options available become increasingly unwieldy, and bog the game down. Some people, I feel, are responding to this issue by basically just insulting anyone who thinks this -- this topic has been discussed a lot over the last several days, and I've read a lot of comments that basically gloss over this problem by saying that GMs and players that find the game unwieldy at high levels are some combination of lazy and/or incompetent. That's not really a counterargument so much as it is making fun of people.
But the reality is that the huge number of buffs and debuffs that can be tossed around in a single round can get overwhelming. It leads to players and GMs being forced to recalculate attack roll bonuses on the fly, with enough different modifiers that some people need a spreadsheet. It's even more difficult if you enjoy "beer & pretzels" style gaming, and may have been drinking.
The second issue is a metagame issue. Yes, there are tactics that can nerf fairly obvious tactics like Scry & Fry, like having a lead-lined castle covered in ivy, etc. But the more of those tactics that are introduced, the less and less the game world looks like what many people imagine it looks like.
That, I think, is the problem for a lot of people. By the time you're done taking into account all these high level issues, you end up with a world that just doesn't feel like the classic fantasy setting. Or you end up with a world that just plain doesn't make sense.
Agreed on all points.
Agreed on all points.I don't think anything can make high level play easier, because (from my perspective) the issues with high level play are intractable without completely altering the game and turning it into 4E. In fact I would go as far to say that 4E is 4E because it tried to solve this problem.
The first issue is simply game complexity. As one goes up in level, the sheer number of options available become increasingly unwieldy, and bog the game down. Some people, I feel, are responding to this issue by basically just insulting anyone who thinks this -- this topic has been discussed a lot over the last several days, and I've read a lot of comments that basically gloss over this problem by saying that GMs and players that find the game unwieldy at high levels are some combination of lazy and/or incompetent. That's not really a counterargument so much as it is making fun of people.
But the reality is that the huge number of buffs and debuffs that can be tossed around in a single round can get overwhelming. It leads to players and GMs being forced to recalculate attack roll bonuses on the fly, with enough different modifiers that some people need a spreadsheet. It's even more difficult if you enjoy "beer & pretzels" style gaming, and may have been drinking.
The second issue is a metagame issue. Yes, there are tactics that can nerf fairly obvious tactics like Scry & Fry, like having a lead-lined castle covered in ivy, etc. But the more of those tactics that are introduced, the less and less the game world looks like what many people imagine it looks like.
That, I think, is the problem for a lot of people. By the time you're done taking into account all these high level issues, you end up with a world that just doesn't feel like the classic fantasy setting. Or you end up with a world that just plain doesn't make sense.
I also agree with every point made above. Also, see term "Tippyverse" to help describe that last point you're making.
I also agree with every point made above. Also, see term "Tippyverse" to help describe that last point you're making.Agreed on all points.I don't think anything can make high level play easier, because (from my perspective) the issues with high level play are intractable without completely altering the game and turning it into 4E. In fact I would go as far to say that 4E is 4E because it tried to solve this problem.
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That, I think, is the problem for a lot of people. By the time you're done taking into account all these high level issues, you end up with a world that just doesn't feel like the classic fantasy setting. Or you end up with a world that just plain doesn't make sense.
A universe does not have to be a Tippyverse to be playable under high levels. It has to be a Tippyverse to prevent certain styles of gameplay from overwhelming certain types of games. The easiest solution is to not play that game.
In any case, I think the problem of high-level modules, pregenerated materials and PFS scenarios (especially the latter) is vastly different than the problem of high-level home campaigns.
Clearly in a home campaign that's successful, everyone's having fun, which means they've figured out a balance that works, whatever that is. That balance at one table is virtually guaranteed to be different than the balance at another table.
For example, we've been playing as a group for years. The wizard at our table is played by a pre-teen, and there's no cleric. That's just the way it has ended up. So there's no way that the balance there is going to be the same as another game. But it's successful, and we're having fun.
I'm not saying it's impossible to design a module that would cater to 24th or 3th-level characters, I'm just saying the experience would be completely different for different gaming groups - one party might find it a cakewalk while another one ends up as a TPK. One might find it horribly boring while another might find it to be a fascinating exercise in puzzle-solving. Just look at the responses to the current low-level PFS scenarios.
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I feel like this is all I post about lately, and I've not even got around posting my thoughts on running the high level game I've finished running recently.
Anyway, if it looks like I'm repeating myself from previous posts, I am, but I hope someone finds this useful.
What would make HLP easier to run (GMs perspective)?
In short, better guidelines for designing high level encounters, where by "encounters" I mean "anything that is a challenge in an RPG" not just combat. There is very little available to look to for examples of high level encounters and challenges, and the existing guidelines in core apply only so much to high level games, in my personal experience. Much of what you end up have to design you have to design on your own with no support (which then makes it less likely you will run a high level game).
More and varied pre-genned NPCs, monsters, hazards, and traps of CR 13+ and higher.
I would like to see specifically the following in some kind of rules supplement:
- More and varied hazards and traps. A lot of pre-genned high CR traps tend to be save-or-die traps. And ultimately, for a high level party, something that a good dispel or Disable Device will take care of too easily. Things that debuff and have complicated means of resolution are highly desired, and I didn't always have time to make up my own.
- More specific suggestions for how much and what kind of treasure to give out. Even just some good random tables geared toward certain kinds of campaigns would be great. WBL is not enough -- and hits a problem if you use a lot of NPCs as I did. NPCs of a certain level have, according to NPC generation guidelines, less nice gear than PCs of the same level. Meaning treasure NPCs drop will never be nice enough for a PC to use (or more likely, the PC already has the same kind of gear). But when abandoning the guidelines which don't work, it's hard to come up with a sense of what is fun, balanced, and fair, without at least a few examples to reference. Not impossible, of course. Hard.
- High CR monsters that are NOT dragons, outsiders, or undead, and that are no larger than Huge size (have you ever tried to fit a Colossal creature inside your average sized building in a way that they can still move?).
- Pregenerated "spells known/prepared" lists for spellcasters. Of course, high level pre-gen NPCs would be nice, but just the spell lists with useful cross-references would be very useful.
- Better/fast-design guidelines and templates for boosting up existing monsters (or designing your own). Once you hit higher levels, the Advanced Template isn't enough (but it is still useful, to be fair).
- More in-depth guidelines for running planar adventures than in the GMG (but is not Golarion specific, because yes I am aware of The Great Beyond or whatever it's called).
- Some general advice for adventure design at high levels---just adapting a low level module doesn't work, usually.
What would make HLP easier to play (Player's perspective)?
I've only run and not played Pathfinder at high level, but I found players struggling to track certain abilities. I think even more readable/better organized character sheets would help (maybe some are out there that we are not aware of; bear in mind my players do not play with laptops, though I do).
Some of my players were frustrated with monsters too-frequently making their saves, but I was sometimes frustrated with the PCs too-frequently making their saves, so I think that's more of an issue of perspective and the grass being greener on the other side than an actual gameplay issue. My game's PCs were godlings and yet the players seemed frustrated easily by what they could or couldn't do, and I am still trying to figure out how much of that is mechanical and how much of that is the players underestimating themselves (or overly fearing the high level monsters' destructive powers).
Please share some hints, tips, and tricks you use, or think would benefit making HLP not as difficult as it is, at least, perceived to be.
If you run with a laptop, I highly recommend Kyle Olson's Combat Manager program (there should be a thread about it in technology). I didn't discover it till shortly before the end of the campaign, but I found it made a marked difference in my ability to track combat--especially when running multiple monsters. Its spell and feat lookup functions are also amazingly useful, as well as the treasure generator.
But my #1 piece of advice is--learned very much the hard way--is relax, roll with it, and learn to enjoy what crazy things the PCs come up with. Rather than worry about stopping the PCs from using some incredibly amazing ability they have easily at their disposal, just know that they ARE going to use that ability, and play out the consequences from there.
My personal preference as a GM is to design slightly sandboxy adventures--there IS a plot and a villain and so forth (often too complicatedly so), but there is also a general world which keeps moving on, and if the characters go "off the rails" I know enough about what's going on in the world to respond. This I find especially worked well for running a high level game, as PCs will take short cuts when you expect them to take the long route--and vice versa--so just rolling with it and adapting as I went along was required.
Regarding Time Limits in combat:
My group is still only 6th level, and already they have a tendency to dither about in combat. I am seriously thinking of using a timer to get them moving more quickly.
I was thinking about this. As a player I often over think my actions. I study spells and consider the implications to my players and the bad guys. I am not the only one who does it at my table but I think that it gets to be a bit much (especially with the casters).
Perhaps your level, intelligence and wisdom score should dictate how much time you have to contemplate your actions. Everything is supposed to be taking place in the span of 6 seconds that really isn't a lot of time.
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awesome stuff
this is so true for our gaming style.
my group is at 12th level now in RotR, and so far it's been going quite well; we play beer & pretzels style, as someone said beautifully above. That said,
What would make HLP easier to run (Player's perspective)?
The one thing we're struggling with, is the sheer number of simultaneously active buffs. Favored enemy, power attack, bless, bardic music, favored terrain, heroism, haste - just to name a few that can all be in effect simultaneously.
Our ranger happens to be the most rules-savvy person in the group and he's struggling with the numbers.Calculating attacks and resulting damage becomes a real distractor at these levels, to the point that I'm now considering giving the most complex characters a permanent 'average bonus' to make all our lives easier, e.g. giving them a +6 all the time, instead of calculating whether it's +3 or +9 due to magic (not) being in effect in that particular round.
However, I feel that takes out a little bit of the fun.
For now - we can manage. But I really would like a more solid solution for this in a few levels - it will only get more complicated to do the math accurately all the time, in the heat of battle, while saving the stunningly beautiful maiden from becoming the hideous dragon's lunch, etc.
What would make HLP easier to run (GMs perspective)?
I royally cheat with monster hit points. The important ones just will not die in one or two rounds. period.
they may be hurt and bleed badly, but if they go down too fast, I'll happily add another 200 hp to their stats. perhaps they had a magic spell active. perhaps they're just that tough. if the BBEG needs more hp to really feel like a BBEG - he'll get them for free. f*k the rules.We've also started using hero points, essentially I allow players to take 20 to perform dramatic story events once per session. I can really recommend this to any level 10+ party, as it allows the players to feel what it's like to perform the deeds that will result in theater plays and ballads in a few year's in-game time. Hero points have certainly added some more 'cool' to our game. This allows the characters to do be *barely* able to do epic stuff *now*, that will be normal at 3 to 5 levels from now, and it helps build a feeling of progression, even at high levels.
I would desperately love to see a manual for monster tactics though - I'm not clever enough to outwit 5 intelligent players all by myself unless I spend hours on end preparing. I'd rather see clever well thought out tactics, e.g. place a single monster in different terrains (cave, mountain, forest) and let the monster make best use of its abilities in each of the terrains.
these tactics would be very useful for all high level combat encounters IMHO: It'd result in a fun and surprising encounter if a stone giant uses a dragon's tactics, if the giant has access to a fly and enlarge person spell. replace the dragon's breath weapon with an enlarged fireball... I can see this work.
and finally, I would instantly buy a gamemastery book of puzzles. interesting puzzles to be stuffed into any campaign in order to open the door / unlock the chest / disable the trap / etc. something an insanely high knowledge check just will not solve in one go (I don't always like bardic knowledge)
From my personal experience, the main problem which popped up for me in the high-level groups I've run were incredibly high SoD or SoS DC's, which are way too easy to achieve for full casters. Paizo AP's generally don't deal with that effectively, neither, unless it is for the final opponent of an AP, who is mostly immune to SoD/SoS spells, due to incredibly high saves and AC.
The buff/debuff problem hasn't popped up for me, because my players don't play that kind of game. But another problem I've found is that I suddenly have to combine several encounters in an AP into one, because by themselves those encounters were total pushovers.
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We've sped up high-level combat fairly well at 12th-13th levels, even with eidolons, cohorts, and companions, but this is our first foray into high-level Pathfinder. We've always changed gears at higher levels.
* One initiative roll per encounter rather than per round
* Initiative board. We use the one sold on this site, and it keeps things moving.
* DM must know his monsters. There shouldn't be flipping in books to see what effect A is or what spell B does.
*Same goes for Players. If they know their character (and they should having played to 12th level!), they shouldn't spend overly long figuring out what to do.
* Roll all combat dice before your turn. It's a trust move between the DM and players, so it might not work for all groups. It is a HUGE timesaver. Players resolve crits/fumbles, etc., and if they get to their turn and it doesn't make sense to attack, etc., the dice don't count. My players are mature enough to take their lumps even with rolling 1s, or to forfeit 20s when it doesn't make sense to attack.
* Same goes for damage rolls, simultaneous with attacks. Casters should ready these in advance too, even if you end up not casting that fireball.
* If the player's ask, I'll tell them what AC they're gunning for so they have an idea of what hits/misses, and if anything changes when their turn rolls around, we quickly resolve that.
* Players should use a "cheat sheet" to keep track of what's changing their (1) attacks (2) damage (3) saves (4) misc. Players are responsible for telling others what is active.
* If a player misses an effect (the extra haste attack, etc.) and the DM has already moved on, we don't go back. You snooze, you lose, harsh but necessary if the game is to move and players be sharp.
* I delay a player's action till the end of the round if they cannot decide what to do in a reasonable amount of time. Usually not a problem with my players.
* One initiative roll per encounter rather than per round
You realize that initiative is already per encounter in the core rules? Per round was an old 1st/2nd edition thing which didn't carry over into 3.X/Pathfinder.
I do agree with most of your points. Once the fighter gets a full round attack on a creature I tell them the AC so he can just tell me how many hits he makes. They'll often get a pretty good idea after a round of combat anyway.
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*Same goes for Players. If they know their character (and they should having played to 12th level!), they shouldn't spend overly long figuring out what to do.
This one is always the problem for me. I always seem to have that one player who can never quite get the hang of the rules, no matter how long he plays.
I have one friend who plays in many of my campaigns, and it seriously does not matter what game you're playing, he takes forever. You can play Go Fish with him and he'll take five minutes to decide what card to ask you for.
Give him the options of a 12th level character and you'll be there for hours waiting for him to decide what he'll do.
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*Same goes for Players. If they know their character (and they should having played to 12th level!), they shouldn't spend overly long figuring out what to do.This one is always the problem for me. I always seem to have that one player who can never quite get the hang of the rules, no matter how long he plays.
I have one friend who plays in many of my campaigns, and it seriously does not matter what game you're playing, he takes forever. You can play Go Fish with him and he'll take five minutes to decide what card to ask you for.
Give him the options of a 12th level character and you'll be there for hours waiting for him to decide what he'll do.
Those are the worst. One of my friends whom i no longer play with, never knew the rules. We baought him the rules (3.5) for his birthday, hoping that he would read the paper book (he doesn't like reading PDFs). He hasn't opened it. Ever.
His logic is that he is a player, the GM should know all the rules.
That, I think, is the problem for a lot of people. By the time you're done taking into account all these high level issues, you end up with a world that just doesn't feel like the classic fantasy setting. Or you end up with a world that just plain doesn't make sense.
That's not a problem with high-level play. D&D fantasy just isn't Middle Earth, and it starts at first level. The fact that the warlord had his architects plan for lead lining in the walls of his castle and a druid cover it with ivy isn't as much a problem as the availability of Create water, Purify food & drink, Comprehend languages, Cure light wounds, and let's not even speak of Color spray, Animate dead or Create food & water. The wizard class doesn't break the universe nearly as efficiently as does the adept.
I mean, the Tippyverse isn't centered around high-level adventurers. Their BBEGs taking into account their powers is one thing, and it's not the same thing. Taking into account the game rules (from the aging penalties and saving throw mechanics, to the craft mechanics and the spells and monster abilities) during the worldbuilding part, that's building a tippyverse. And that's something that most DMs handwave perfectly.
And honestly, I think ivy-covered buildings look better, as far as my imagination goes, and don't take much away from the fantasy feel.
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And honestly, I think ivy-covered buildings look better, as far as my imagination goes, and don't take much away from the fantasy feel.
It gets kind of boring when every single important building has to be 100% covered in ivy. It also really limits the amount of found art you can use as player handouts. For example a GIS for "castle" turns up hundreds of great images of castles that would serve as a player handout, but not a single one of them is covered in ivy. Or any kind of greenery for that matter.
There's also...I'm having trouble coming up the words to capture what I'm thinking, but here goes: You ever read MythAdventures series by Robert Asprin?
In that series the hero Skeeve is shocked (shocked!) to discover that his world, the dimension of Klah, is considered a bumpkin backwater by the rest of the multiverse. It's considered a unsophisticated, rural, backwards joke.
And of course Klah is a world of fantasy kingdoms, with wizards, castles, dragons, and all the other tropes of Middle Earth. It is, essentially, Middle Earth. The "Standard Fantasy Gaming World."
That's what I don't like about where epic level play takes the game. It turns the Prime Material Plane into Klah. A joke. Oooh, the Prime Material Plane, where those stupid little peasant idiots think a single ancient red dragon is a "threat." Hah! Little do they know of the expanded universe, where there are whole planets were ancient red dragons are considered pest creatures by the 70th level Fighter/Wizard/Cleric/Rogues who are able to secure jobs as exterminators (they save the real work for people with actual power).
You know on the Prime Material Plane they actually worship Gods, instead of just bending them over their knee and spanking them like the unruly brats they are? That's how backwards those Primers are.
The higher you raise the cap, the more trivial everything becomes, and the more and more it turns out that the players -- who thought they were accomplishing something when they defeated the Whispering Tyrant, or raised an army and slew Treerazer, or killed the last of the Spawn of Rovugug -- are just a bunch of chumps who haven't even accomplished anything of meaning. What does it mean to kill a CR 25 creature that terrorizes entire nations when eventually the game takes you places where a dozen CR 25 creatures is a roadbump on the way to the real threat?
I don't know. It just seems to me that the higher you raise the cap, the higher you raise the expectations, until eventually you've got a game where the vast majority of players and the vast majority of characters in the vast majority of campaigns end when those characters are still in diapers. Where the majority of campaigns end during the slog to the real game. You know, when the character's levels are still only in the double digits.
Pfft. I prefer D&D as a game where movies like Krull or LOTR or Conan can be shown to new players to give them a sense of what the game is all about. When the power levels start going off the chart (OVER 9000!!!!) then what do I show them? Dragonball Z? I hate Dragonball Z. It's stupid and boring. It's a wankfest, a powergamer's lame wet dream.
I don't know how to write adventures for that kind of stupid power. When players say they want that kind of power, I just point at them and laugh. "What a loser you are, that you can't just enjoy fantasy, you need it to be this ridiculous power fantasy, where you're unstoppable. Get a life."
That's why E6 appeals to me so much. 6th, 7th level, you hit that sweet spot where your characters are about as badass as the heroes you see in movies. Where slaying the ancient dragon is a possibility, but will require an epic quest to achieve it. Where you can take on twenty of the king's guard, and most likely win (but it'll be a real fight), and I (the DM) don't have to make them all 8th level to do it -- because while I'm sure the King has the elite guards, the fact is that a 5th level character is equivalent to the absolute best humanity has to offer in the real world, and the most elite of guards shouldn't be more than 2nd or 3rd level Warriors, or maybe first or second level Fighters.
And with E6 you can keep the game world sane, in line with common expectations, avoiding "Tippyverse," rooted in medieval europe or other real world analogues, and keep adventuring until the campaign ends for some reason other than DM burnout at having to constantly top himself until its all just too ridiculous.
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Probably the key thing for high level play is a way for other high level forces to shut down high level tactics.
This is only reasonable. Nobody of any accomplishment should be vulnerable to Scry and Fry.
First is, Interdiction is a VERY common effect in my game world. It raises the Spell level required to use any dimensional type spell by the level you cast the INterdiction at, it's easily made permanent, and it covers a huge area. Most major cities, and ALL important places, are covered with these things cast at from a slot 6 or higher. Unless you are Epic, you can't get in with dimension bending, and time stop don't work in that area. Likewise, monsters can't be summoned inside such areas.
It adds a whole lot of realism when populations don't have to worry about baddies popping out of nowhere.
Two, the threat of flying creatures is unreal. You have to shut them down.
Earthbind does that. It's a level 3 spell, the area increases drastically if you cast it from a higher slot, and it can be made permanent. Nothing above the area affected can use any form of unnatural flight. Basically, only bugs, bats and birds of natural origins can fly...everything else, from dragons to elementals, loses all lift and is forced to the ground. No flying over cities from a mile up and dropping shrunken boulders for hilarity.
Both of these spells are big and powerful because they restore the status quo, effectively enforcing the rules of reality and counteracting magical attempts to get around them.
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For teleports, you can teleport to Foci, but there are spells that track the teleport, not you. So the enemy can see exactly where you went to, follow if they like, or come at you from another angle.
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Old rules for Dispel magics...they work against every spell in the AoE. And they are COMMON. Buff spells become much less important when they keep getting dispelled. It also increases the importance of magical items that are constant against things.
Anti-magic is exceedingly common...it's called a Grey Field. Permanent Grey Fields are in effect in just about every venue of public importance. Trying to charm, possess, or AoE the local Senate doesn't work with Greyfields protecting them. Likewise, most military hardpoints have Grey Fields in areas vulnerable to spells.
As another alternative, Spell Engines (1E version) secured underground drain all attempts to cast spells in their huge AoE, last forever, while making it a refreshing place to regain them.
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NPC's have major problems in PF and 3.5. You see, Monsters in the game have the same loot as NPC's, but monsters tend to have MUCH better stats, size bonuses, saves and AC thereby. Because NPC's never have as much loot as PC's, they will never have adequate defenses for what PC's of the same level can do.
The easiest way to take care of this is either higher stats or ad hoc 'home ground advantage' stat buff, to bring them up to PC level.
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Tome of 9 Swords did a great thing by introducing the Diamond Mind save manuvers. Basically, if you want to make a save, you are going to make the save. They are GREAT for NPC's.
2nd, they intro'd Iron Heart Surge. This is a combination of Restore Self, Break Enchantment Self, and dispel Magic self. You aren't going to affect a high level melee for more then one round with something. maze him? He shatters the spell around himself with a Surge and he's back in the game.
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SoD's tend to run into immunities, which can be broadly available. Remember lightning Rod? Absorbed any electrical spells cast within 60'? Just throw it off to the side. The Druidic Rituals of the Frozen/Fiery Heart give cold and fire templates...pay money for immunity to both elements. Amethysts give you an effective 22 Wis for Will saves vs magic stuff. Diamond earrings give you +2 to Will saves. Black sapphires prevented any spell from messing with Time within 30', etc. There are packets of Anti_magic (dust of dispelling) you can technically throw/launch at people.
Final Rest and True Death enchantments mean that death can be very final if you leave your friends behind. FR raises the spell level needed to Raise or Animate a body by the enhancement level of the weapon. Final Rest Weapons +3 means you have to cast a Heightened Raise Dead from an 8 slot, and you can't Resurrect them without being Epic. True Death you can't do it at all unless you destroy the True Death weapon. FR weapons are ritually used in most burial practices in civilized realms if you 'must' have a body to be buried...most bodies are simply incinerated by magical vivic flame to deny necromancers the chance to enslave bodies and/or souls.
I use the old Mind Blank definition. Immunity to scrying and mental control is a goal of much of the wealthy population. Be it by Scrywards, Greyfields, gem magic, or whatever, people pursue these things. It's an easy spell to lay on an NPC. Wards that can shut down an entire spell school are common, too.
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Death should not be like a video game. I use the old System Shock rule, and you lose a 'virtual' con point every time you die. At some point, you just don't want to come back, or wherever you are at has too strong a hold on you, and you can't come back.
I bias towards Melee for Hit points, using 1E rules for Con to HP for non-melees and partial casters. Sorry, that mage/cleric with a 26 Con still only has +2 Hp/HD. Use false life and FC hit point bonuses, and stay out of Melee.
None of the tactics the players use are 'new'. Anything they use is perfectly fine to use against them. So if they start escalating things and throwing their weight around, someone is going to notice and act pre-emptively, before the PC's do it to them. A sampling of such used on them is usually enough to invite discussion and rule that such things don't combine that way.
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Burrowing...use a Called Greater Earth elemental with the specific task to collapse any tunnels you have not personally approved on top of the diggers, or to engage a burrowing creature and force it to the surface where it can be noticed and slain by greater forces. Have a smaller one around to sound the alarm.
Continual Faerie Fire...remember that spell? basically, it's glitterdust, all the time, with the additional caveat of Show Magic...anyone with active spells or magical effects on them glows in the AoE. Make this very large, and the druid flying over in wildshape is going to be glowing blue-white, and a lot of curious eyes following him. A PC walking down the street with half a dozen buff spells is probably going to empty the roads, as people assume he's out looking for trouble.
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The one thing NPC's have going for them is access to all the spells that PC's do, and possibly the resources of an organization. They should make use of them. Communal spellcasting can give wards and effects caster levels impossible to dispel.
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I suppose what it all comes down to is it is very easy to put restrictions on what your characters can do, and make them completely plausible as you do so. Why wouldn't a Dragon cover its lair in an A-M field? So it can't breathe or spellcast...it's still a humongously dangerous Melee machine that suddenly doesn't have to fear over-buffed bipeds. And it can still fly and get away if it likes.
Does this discriminate against casters? Since you need casters to do this to other casters, what this basically is is pre-emptive counterspelling.
Is it a change from the default PF rules on stuff? Oh, definitely. I've always been irked by the high level of AMF's, the lack of anti-Teleport and Dimensional defenses, and no means to shut down flying. Introducing them changes a lot of things.
Another thing is that I subdivided 'civilization' into the three level zones.
Levels 1-6 are 'normal people' zones. 99% of people live in this level range and don't bother to ever grow past it.
Levels 7-10 are 'post-human' level ranges. They tend to rule the normal people simply because they are more capable at it.
Level 11-20 are Superhuman levels, and they tend to be blatantly heroic. They have better things to do then sit around a court all day and deal with trade disputes. These people are in pursuit of power. The boring minutia of being a ruler is not for them. If they are a ruler, it's to give blatant bonuses, to act as figurehead/champion for a kingdom, and to provide a voice of last resort...but they seldom interact with normal people, share none of the same goals, and have grandiose dreams and ambitions which normal people just don't empathize with.
Level 21+, you're involved in Divine Politics, dealing with Profound Forces, and capable of single-handedly changing the world. You are messing with other worlds, other dimensions, and one planet really isn't big enough for you, and you're Eternal...unless you are killed, you could be at this for a long time.
Anyone hitting 7 gets their 'adult' years extended by a decade per level. Thus, a human, normally 20-40, would immediately go to 20 to 110 years for their 'prime' years. This makes powerful people longer lived, frees up time for side pursuits, and gives them time to accomplish great goals. There's no need to search for the elixir of longevity ...you get it when you hit 21, when your Prime age is what you always are.
The life cycle thus tends to be 1-6, adventure; 7-10, have family, get involved in politics, rulership, merchant endeavors; 11+ leave your dynasty to take over mundane affairs and start pursuing true power and Eternal life; 21+ pursue your Eternal Destiny and explore Creation.
PC's in AP's tend to blow through this cycle, stall out, and then fall back to the level 10 attitude playing 'catch-up'.
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meh, think I posted too much.
==Aelryinth
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Gailbraithe...wait...did you just put Krull in a same category as LOTR? Duuuude...how could you...look at LOTR now weeping in the corner muttering about crap and sucky acting...
Although i actually agree with you on some points of what you say, i weant a character who can kill an ancient wyrm with ease. I want a wizard who can make a mountain dissapear. I want a druid who can, with a single spell create a rainforest hundreds of miles across. I want a paladin the stories of which are told to baby balors and pit fiends when they don't want to eat their dinner.
There is no need for infinite level however. A hard cap at 36 or 40 is perfect.
Hama: At that level of play I'd suggest that it would be more practical to simply stat up characters with the Deities and Demigods rules and run a titan/god-level campaign. I was in a game like that once where the party was basically gods from another world who got sucked into Earth's Ragnarok. It was pretty badass and a more reasonable way of handling events that were divorced (by several orders of magnitude) from what I'd realistically want to see in normal* high-level play.
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Hama: At that level of play I'd suggest that it would be more practical to simply statting up characters with the Deities and Demigods rules and run a titan/god-level campaign. I was in a game like that once where the party was basically gods from another world who got sucked into Earth's Ragnarok. It was pretty badass and a more reasonable way of handling events that were divorced (by several orders of magnitude) from what I'd realistically want to see in normal* high-level play.
I just responded to Gailbraithe's post on post 20
Normal HLP is 20 and below.
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It gets kind of boring when every single important building has to be 100% covered in ivy.
Not much more than it is when every single building has stone walls. You can introduce variations after that, covering your castle in other kinds of plants, in vermin, or making it one colossal golem.
I think I understand where you're coming from, though. But your view is partial.
First, the central trope of planar adventures, is that your home plane is not the center of the world. Most likely, if there's a central point in the universe, you're from the planet that it's farthest from. It's been done and redone, because after you fought your seventh necromancer/orc army/demon cult, you'll want to step up to new, bigger things, even if that means you're no longer the big hero - for a time. That won't make the lives you saved previously less important if your past encounters were more than series of randomized numbers. It's actually refreshing to be a clueless prime after having been a legendary hero.
It's also a common starting point for all kinds of adventures. On your planet, you came from your backwater farm to finally save the world. In the universe, you came from your backwater world to postpone the master plan of demogorgon or some other.
And on middle earth, you're an irrelevant hobbit from an isolationist and isolated shire, and you're going to defeat a fallen god in an adventure that will dwarf the heroes of your home.
But even if it will dwarf Bullroarer Took, it won't necessarily make a joke out of him. That only depends on the story you're telling, not on the comparative scale of the fights and powers involved.
Even Golarion is built on this assumption : Treerazer is one of the most powerful being around, because he was exiled from the abyss. Putting him in the shoes of Demogorgon would cheapen the entire multiverse, or make no sense at all. If the most powerful demon is on golarion, why didn't he take over ? If he's too weak to do so, why don't we send a host of paladins to conquer the abyss ? If we're at a stalemate with the abyss, why didn't we die of boredom ? There needs to be something elsewhere to make the characters and their opponents feel small.
Plus, saving a goddess from Graz'zt's grasp, using the rod of law against Miska the Wolf-spider, and jumping with swords drawn in the middle of a reunion between the main demon lords and Lolth's envoy, all before 15th level ? That would be ridiculous...
On the other hand, the usual repartition of NPCs and monsters by CR among the campaign world and timeline is not the best possible. Saying that "the most elite of guards shouldn't be more than 2nd or 3rd level Warriors" is completely arbitrary, and the proposed rules and models for attributing levels in published books are too. The skill system could be loosely used to simulate athletes and physicists at around 5th level, but that would be a joke. The skill system is one of the most easily abused and nonsensically abstracted parts of the game. So, I really don't see the problem with having a royal guard of 8th level fighters. The problem is with changing the usual NPC levels according to the level of the party during the campaign, but the very simple solution is to set them at the start (in accordance with their backgrounds of course) and then send the adventurers to different challenges at different points of their careers. That's why dragons come in different colors and age categories.
Of course, unlimited growth in power isn't the logical consequence of this. Treerazer can be easily defeated by 4 20th level wizards, but that doesn't mean that the characters will ever be able to reach the level necessary to bring down Asmodeus. Just because your rise in levels allowed you to travel to distant planes and meet bigger threats, does not mean you'll ever kill the Lady of Pain. You can play high-level characters without playing Goku.
James Jacobs, on the matter of the epic-level supplement, repeatedly said that there will be a new level cap. I think that makes sense, both for playability (leveling on and on can get boring, and you still get only a few actions per round) and for internal consistency of the setting (mortals shouldn't be able to reach godlike powers without becoming godlike entities). You just have to set the limit. J.J. proposed 36 IIRC, I would prefer 40 or something like E40, but that's up to DM. In any case, you have a skewed idea of what you call powergamers dream about, I think. And wanting to keep the same characters through increasingly epic adventures does not require us to be powergamers, and powergaming does not require more than 20 levels.
And with E6 you can keep the game world sane, in line with common expectations, avoiding "Tippyverse," rooted in medieval europe or other real world analogues, and keep adventuring until the campaign ends for some reason other than DM burnout at having to constantly top himself until its all just too ridiculous.
No you can't. Create Food and Water traps are available at level 5. You can't use the D&D rules to replicate movies and novels, at any level. Nor any real world period and place (the attempts to do so in Golarion are awful, though that's mostly unrelated to the rules). Even novels set in D&D settings are largely incompatible with the rules.
Or at least, you can't as long as you base your world on the rules, and if you think that a world like that is insane. But you can staple the rules on incompatible settings, and you can easily avoid making a mockery of your own game. If you want to.
Hama: At that level of play I'd suggest that it would be more practical to simply stat up characters with the Deities and Demigods rules and run a titan/god-level campaign. I was in a game like that once where the party was basically gods from another world who got sucked into Earth's Ragnarok. It was pretty badass and a more reasonable way of handling events that were divorced (by several orders of magnitude) from what I'd realistically want to see in normal* high-level play.
Alter reality really isn't up to par with epic spellcasting... is it ? I never played with the Deities and Demigods rules but they didn't seem to allow what I would expect from a god.
In some ways Alter Reality is, in others not. However nothing stops a caster classed god (all of whom are supposed to have at least 20 levels in cleric) form taking Epic feats to gain caster slots for Epic Spells. Considering they are immortal such casters have plenty of time to create such spells.
Alter Reality is better then the first 20 levels of casting for the most part.
One thing I do that speeds up play a great deal is to use 4x6 cards for initiative, in portrait orientation.
The GameMastery Initiative Board is cool, but not as useful.
I have, premade, cards for each PC. As a combat is coming up, I create cards for each creature or group of creatures as I see fit. Cards typically just have HP, but I will sometimes add other stuff like AC.
Then, as they roll initiative I just put the cards in order. Any multiple-round effects get a row of boxes that I check off once per round so I know when they're done.
Anyone who delays or readies gets their card sideways in the stack, and I just move it if their action fires or they act from a delay.
As I am at each card, I announce YOU are next, and YOU are after them.
This saves a LOT of time in combat. Not only does each person know when they're coming up, but it gives them a good idea of the context when it's their turn. I'll often jump ahead to the next person during the current person's turn if there's no overlap (for example, PC A is healing PC B and PC C is going to attack something).
The good players will pre-roll their attacks, and typically tell me the minimum AC they hit.
Plus, if any of the spellcasters dawdles too long, I just go "okay, you delay while you think about what to cast," tuck their card sideways, and move on.
This speeds up combat immensely, and the "you delay" thing encourages them not to spend 15 minutes leafing through spell books. They can, since I don't forbid it, but they will miss the entire combat if they keep it up.
At conventions, I have the players fill out the cards for me and include player name, character name, AC, level, class and HP so I know what I'm dealing with.
It works really well.
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In some ways Alter Reality is, in others not. However nothing stops a caster classed god (all of whom are supposed to have at least 20 levels in cleric) form taking Epic feats to gain caster slots for Epic Spells. Considering they are immortal such casters have plenty of time to create such spells.
Alter Reality is better then the first 20 levels of casting for the most part.
Alter reality is the be all end all kind of spell. "you don't exist, or never have"...no save...
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I honestly have a hard time seeing the point of play beyond level 20. I mean, It's fun getting there, and once the PCs are there it's fun to play around for a bit and let them use the full suite of their abilities. However, I'd much rather wrap up the campaign at that point and return to first level play (after taking a break with another game system for a while, probably).
I honestly have a hard time seeing the point of play beyond level 20. I mean, It's fun getting there, and once the PCs are there it's fun to play around for a bit and let them use the full suite of their abilities. However, I'd much rather wrap up the campaign at that point and return to first level play (after taking a break with another game system for a while, probably).
I agree. At level 15 the players are probably going to feel like Gods, by level 20 they will surely be like Gods.
I agree. At level 15 the players are probably going to feel like Gods, by level 20 they will surely be like Gods.
How so ?