do they restrict you on vocal components too?
No, Eidolons are intelligent outsiders and thus can talk normally. Whether as a synthesist or not.
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Can we just toss out Summoners and start over already?
This makes my head hurt and I am just trying to comprehend the rules exceptions and counterexceptions, not write them.
but that goes against what they printed in Ultimate Magic. what happened to a summoner has access to all his abilities ? spellcasting is a HUGE ability to block by form. require evolution points to be spent on. its evolution tax.
If you polymorph yourself into an armless slug, that's your choice, and you can't cast S spells. If you build your eidolon so it doesn't have arms, that's your choice, and you have to deal with the consequences.
Not all choices you can make are optimal choices... but it is your choice to make them.
do they restrict you on vocal components too? or can you take natural spell to cast spells while fused in quadruped or serpentine form to bypass somatic components?
The synthesist "speaks through its [the eidolon's] voice," so you can cast V spells.
but that goes against what they printed in Ultimate Magic. what happened to a summoner has access to all his abilities ? spellcasting is a HUGE ability to block by form. require evolution points to be spent on. its evolution tax.If you polymorph yourself into an armless slug, that's your choice, and you can't cast S spells.
Unless you are a Druid with Natural Spell where the only limitation appears to be the need to be able to vocalize and move. There is no statement, or even real implication, about actually needing limbs.
Unless you are a Druid with Natural Spell where the only limitation appears to be the need to be able to vocalize and move. There is no statement, or even real implication, about actually needing limbs.
You mean except for this little tidbit, of course:
Somatic (S): A somatic component is a measured and precise movement of the hand. You must have at least one hand free to provide a somatic component.
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what about eidolon constitution vs. summoner constitution.
eidolon is a source of your temp hp shell.
but say for example you have a 2nd level dwarf summoner with a 16 con. indpendently, say he's got 8 + 3, + 5 + 3 = 19 hp. his 2 HD eidolon has 13 hp ( con 13. base form biped ).
when he's fused, he uses the eidolon's con score modifier , with the summoner's base fort save.
do his own hit points get recalculated using the eidolon's lower con?
( this is backtracking. polymorphing was changed so that druids couldn't tank str, dex, con , and then accept the higher con of the beast they turned into as a way to gain more hit points. )
I understand using the eidolon shell's con for fort, dex for reflex/init, and str/dex/con for skills. but base hit points shouldn't be effected by the eidolon.
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sorry, i think Synthesist needs to be expanded to its own class like ninja and samurai got. there's so many corner cases and wording mishaps with the original writeup.
and you *need* to fix the base forms to work like polymorph effects: granting static bonuses on top of the summoner's stats. otherwise its everything you don't want: tanking stats because there's a positive effect: getting to spend all your points on mental stats, spend all day fused with your eidolon, and not care about your original physical stats.
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but that goes against what they printed in Ultimate Magic. what happened to a summoner has access to all his abilities ? spellcasting is a HUGE ability to block by form. require evolution points to be spent on. its evolution tax.If you polymorph yourself into an armless slug, that's your choice, and you can't cast S spells. If you build your eidolon so it doesn't have arms, that's your choice, and you have to deal with the consequences.
Not all choices you can make are optimal choices... but it is your choice to make them.
do they restrict you on vocal components too? or can you take natural spell to cast spells while fused in quadruped or serpentine form to bypass somatic components?The synthesist "speaks through its [the eidolon's] voice," so you can cast V spells.
the FAQ says you can mix and match your synth eidolon's attacks and your own attacks. but you can't use your own arms to form somatic components within your eidolon shell??
If this is a polymorph effect, then yes. i'm a slug with no arms in serpentine form. if this is a shell that i am controlling from inside, then i can move my hands while inside its belly and looking through its eyes and speaking through Eidolon's voice. just because the eidolon doesn't have hands to cast spells, doesn't mean i'm suddenly amputated.
If this is a polymorph effect though, it should be re-done to work like a polymorph effect. and expanded to work with Natural spell if the summoner decides to go that route. The caveat that non-biped base forms need the hands evolution runs counter with other answers in the FAQ.
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what about eidolon constitution vs. summoner constitution.
eidolon is a source of your temp hp shell.but say for example you have a 2nd level dwarf summoner with a 16 con. indpendently, say he's got 8 + 3, + 5 + 3 = 19 hp. his 2 HD eidolon has 13 hp ( con 13. base form biped ).
when he's fused, he uses the eidolon's con score modifier , with the summoner's base fort save.
do his own hit points get recalculated using the eidolon's lower con?
( this is backtracking. polymorphing was changed so that druids couldn't tank str, dex, con , and then accept the higher con of the beast they turned into as a way to gain more hit points. )I understand using the eidolon shell's con for fort, dex for reflex/init, and str/dex/con for skills. but base hit points shouldn't be effected by the eidolon.
My understanding is, you'll use the eidolon's con score for calculating your base hit points while fused. In your case, that means your base hit points would increase if something bad happens to your eidolon.
In the case of someone that has dumped their con, their hit points will drop, possibly enough to kill them.
Personally: I started with a 12 con on on my character, slotted an ability increase into my eidolon's con, and used my eidolon's stat increase to raise con. You can never have too many hp, especially on the front lines.
The up side is, you double-dip with con increases. An item that gives you +4 con is not only going to raise your hit-points, it's going to increase the temporary hit-points you receive from your eidolon.
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the FAQ says you can mix and match your synth eidolon's attacks and your own attacks. but you can't use your own arms to form somatic components within your eidolon shell??
You can mix & match your own attacks, but you need the appropriate limbs to deliver them.
If your a monk with flurry of blows, your good. A monk is defined as using his entire body as a weapon, not just his hands and feet.
If your a Paladin making iterative attacks with a two-handed sword, your going to need 2 hands free to wield that sword.
If your a Dragon-Adept, with claws and a bite, why are you crossed with Synthesist???
Unless you are a Druid with Natural Spell where the only limitation appears to be the need to be able to vocalize and move. There is no statement, or even real implication, about actually needing limbs.You mean except for this little tidbit, of course:
Somatic (S): A somatic component is a measured and precise movement of the hand. You must have at least one hand free to provide a somatic component.
Overridden by Natural Spell. Just like Verbal is.
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Unless you are a Druid with Natural Spell where the only limitation appears to be the need to be able to vocalize and move. There is no statement, or even real implication, about actually needing limbs.
We're not talking about druids, we're talking about summoners. A wizard who polymorphs into an armless slug can't cast S spells. The fact that the druid can cast in slug form is a cool perk of being a druid with the Natural Spell feat, not the default way that form-changing should work.
My point is, if you deliberately choose an armless eidolon, knowing that you can't cast S spells when fused, that is your choice and you have to deal with it.
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Unless you are a Druid with Natural Spell where the only limitation appears to be the need to be able to vocalize and move. There is no statement, or even real implication, about actually needing limbs.
We're not talking about druids, we're talking about summoners. A wizard who polymorphs into an armless slug can't cast S spells. The fact that the druid can cast in slug form is a cool perk of being a druid with the Natural Spell feat, not the default way that form-changing should work.
My point is, if you deliberately choose an armless eidolon, knowing that you can't cast S spells when fused, that is your choice and you have to deal with it.
If a fused summoner is comparable to a polymorph effect, then it should use rules similar to a polymorph effect and be expanded to be compatable with natural spell.
Synthesist promotes benefits for dumping your ability scores, something i thouoght you were working to fix / avoid.
While fused with his eidolon, the synthesist can use all of his own abilities and gear. In all other cases, this ability functions as the summoner's normal eidolon ability (for example, the synthesist cannot use his summon monster ability while the eidolon is present).
As written it seems intended to allow spellcasting while fused, since it is not a polymorph effect. It does not state in UM "to cast spells while in the quadruped or serpentine base forms, you must take the "hands" evolution.".
Its also a matter of flavor that I may not *want* my quadruped lycanthrope/barghest-mock eidolon to have much more than claws. i don't want a second set of limbs with hands, for functionality and for appearance.
You're interpreting the class as a Polymorph effect, probably with prior knowledge from some discussion with other developers that players are not aware of. Fix the class, don't pin a "hands tax" onto the eidolons because of how you interpret fusing to occur. But the effect does not act like a polymorph effect.
A polymorphing wizard/druid/sorcerer with str 7, dex 7, and con 7 will not gain much benefit. but a synthesist eidolon will :
* gain more hp, gain temp hp
* gain at least a +3 bonus to reflex save, at least a +4 bonus to fort save (over his original saves while not fused ).
* gain an improved base attack bonus in most cases.
the player has plenty of incentive to dump all of his physical stats and put them all into spellcasting and mental stats, and then look for ways to negate penalties associated with being both an outsider and a humanoid.
If this were a polymorph effect like any other spell/ability , i.e. beast shape, dragon form, giant shape, the eidolon base forms would have bonuses that the summoner would wear, so they couldn't mine their physical stats for ability points.
ex. humanoid base form, +6 str, +2 dex, +2 con , +2 natural armor, base speed 30 ft. , quadruped base form +4 str, +4 dex, +2 con, +2 natural armor.
relying on the underlying stats of the summoner would prevent much of the cheese that was quelled by changing the way polymorph spells work when converting from 3.5 to pathfinder. Synthesist is taking a step backwards toward that primordial ooze.
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When you're fused, if your eidolon doesn't have hands, you don't have hands. The game rules say "you must have one hand free to cast spells with somatic components." If you don't have hands in your fused state, you can't cast spells with somatic components, just like the normal rule for casting spells.
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When you're fused, if your eidolon doesn't have hands, you don't have hands. The game rules say "you must have one hand free to cast spells with somatic components." If you don't have hands in your fused state, you can't cast spells with somatic components, just like the normal rule for casting spells.
aside from hands, the archtype has larger problems. I do hope you're not just glossing over the larger issues i'm raising in my post.
and since the base forms get certain evolutions free, you can also fix the hands problem by giving the other forms the evolution for free. for quadrupeds its not a matter of not having the limbs. they've got forelimbs. but the limbs (hands) evolution grants an extra set of limbs. so in order to cast spells , you're saying that a quadruped form creature needs an extra pair of limbs beyond what it already has, in order to cast spells.
i'm saying this is an unreasonable demand, because being quadrupedal, its already got enough limbs and just needs the hands at the end of its fore or hind limbs with which to cast spells. since the hands at the end of the forelimbs are not detailed as claws, specifying that they're human like does not give them a free natural attack. and allowing them to use them as hands without gaining a set of limbs saves the summoner from spending another 2 points on limbs to cast spells.
For serpentine base form creatures, Nagas set a precedent for being able to cast spells without having hands/limbs.
We're not talking about druids, we're talking about summoners. A wizard who polymorphs into an armless slug can't cast S spells.
Unless you are a Druid with Natural Spell where the only limitation appears to be the need to be able to vocalize and move. There is no statement, or even real implication, about actually needing limbs.
And just as Druids, Summoners - and more so, Synthesists - are a separate class from Wizards with unique abilities which must be considered and addressed. And with something besides piles of rules exceptions.
The fact that the druid can cast in slug form is a cool perk of being a druid with the Natural Spell feat, not the default way that form-changing should work.
Then the Druid shouldn't get it if the argument is "Only the Druid should be able to do it." The Synthesist present a unique case FAR closer to the Druid than the Transmuter Wizard.
My point is, if you deliberately choose an armless eidolon, knowing that you can't cast S spells when fused, that is your choice and you have to deal with it.
My point is that presents a balance issue, never mind a class nerf. A feat tax on Druids is one thing, but a class being faced with a far more precious evolution point tax or complete removal of a class' abilities is something else entirely.
Quadrupeds do not have hands, they have feet. According to the rules in the summoner class, an eidolon only has hands if it uses the limbs evolution to get arms--not legs:
No hands, no somatic spells. Feel free to disagree, or houserule it in your game if you don't like it, but that's the rule.
I second my suggestion to toss Synthesist out of the game and I don't particularly like the Summoner, in certain way.
It has become clear that the Synthesist is just a plain design failure, in every way imaginable. I'm sure it sounded cool on paper, but in practice it needed more time in the oven.
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The Synthesist present a unique case FAR closer to the Druid than the Transmuter Wizard.
Says you. I think "arcane caster who summons an outsider and wears on his body like a second skin" is pretty far from "divine caster who is so attuned to nature that he can turn into animals."
My point is that presents a balance issue, never mind a class nerf. A feat tax on Druids is one thing, but a class being faced with a far more precious evolution point tax or complete removal of a class' abilities is something else entirely.
The dagger fighter or whip fighter doesn't do as much damage as the longsword fighter or the greatsword fighter, yet some people still choose to play them. If you want to make a choice for your character that limits some aspect of that character, even if it's an important aspect for that class (such as damage for a fighter, or casting for a summoner), that's your choice.
If you want every choice to have the exact same balance, you need to play a different game.
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The Synthesist present a unique case FAR closer to the Druid than the Transmuter Wizard.Says you. I think "arcane caster who summons an outsider and wears on his body like a second skin" is pretty far from "divine caster who is so attuned to nature that he can turn into animals."
My point is that presents a balance issue, never mind a class nerf. A feat tax on Druids is one thing, but a class being faced with a far more precious evolution point tax or complete removal of a class' abilities is something else entirely.The dagger fighter or whip fighter doesn't do as much damage as the longsword fighter or the greatsword fighter, yet some people still choose to play them. If you want to make a choice for your character that limits some aspect of that character, even if it's an important aspect for that class (such as damage for a fighter, or casting for a summoner), that's your choice.
If you want every choice to have the exact same balance, you need to play a different game.
I would like it if the choices at least addressed the inconsistencies.
I compare synthesist to druid , not because of the role playing aspects of the classes, or the thematic elements of the classes, but because both the synthesist and the druid have long duration effects that change their physical stats.
while they druid was changed from 3.5 to pathfinder to use the beast shape spells which offer limited changes to their physical stats and natural armor based on their class level, while the synthesist wholely replaces his physical stats, the way wild shape used to work in 3.5.
development wise, is there a reason for this reversal in design principals?
Quadrupeds do not have hands, they have feet. According to the rules in the summoner class, an eidolon only has hands if it uses the limbs evolution to get arms--not legs:Limbs (Ex): An eidolon grows an additional pair of limbs. These limbs can take one of two forms. They can be made into legs, complete with feet. Each pair of legs increases the eidolon's base speed by 10 feet. Alternatively, they can be made into arms, complete with hands.
No hands, no somatic spells. Feel free to disagree, or houserule it in your game if you don't like it, but that's the rule.
Is there any game rule prohibiting that the feet the quadruped has work as limbs (hands) when you take the limbs (ex) evoloution instead of growing a new pair of limbs? or would the summoner be forced by the game mechanics to have an eidolon with 4 feet and 2 hands ?
The Synthesist present a unique case FAR closer to the Druid than the Transmuter Wizard.Says you. I think "arcane caster who summons an outsider and wears on his body like a second skin" is pretty far from "divine caster who is so attuned to nature that he can turn into animals."
I couldn't possibly care less about your thematics argument. I am speaking mechanically.
The dagger fighter or whip fighter doesn't do as much damage as the longsword fighter or the greatsword fighter, yet some people still choose to play them.
Some people KNOW those are stupid choices and make them because it thinks it lets them look down their noses at people who play the game in such a way that doesn't gimp themselves because they believe role-playing and playing the game are mutually exclusive propositions. Is that how we are balancing the game? If so, someone else needs to be given that job.
PS. A whip fighter does NO damage unless he uses some whip that can damage through armor.
If you want to make a choice for your character that limits some aspect of that character, even if it's an important aspect for that class (such as damage for a fighter, or casting for a summoner), that's your choice.
Yes. It is. If I want to decide to not cast spells, I should be given that choice. If I DO want to cast spells while having a snake eidolon covering, I should ALSO have that choice. Which doesn't exist. You are FORCING choice A onto people and not allowing choice B.
If you want every choice to have the exact same balance, you need to play a different game.
Pathfinder - Only for snooty TRUE role-players.
Looks like I am going to have to go Kirth's route and make an entire rulebook to represent changes to the game that improve it because it is obviously being written with traps into it because that's what true scotsmen, I mean role-players like.
I am very disappointed Pathfinder has decided to deviate from its seeming original path of fixing what was wrong with 3.5. I guess they just wanted to fix the core 3.5 and then make their own deviations into balance by making overpowered items and crap items.
Cartigan, have you considered the Still Spell Feat? And a person using a whip in a fight normally increases the damage of those around them, but the reduction in AC due to being prone and AoOs when standing back up.
A PFS Synthesist needs their Eidolon to have Limb(Arms) to cast spells. Your House Rules may allow for casting without hands, either with no additional requirement or with a feat or with a Concentration check. But RAW for the player races within the game at this moment in time is that you need hands to cast spells.
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Quadrupeds do not have hands, they have feet. According to the rules in the summoner class, an eidolon only has hands if it uses the limbs evolution to get arms--not legs:
No hands, no somatic spells. Feel free to disagree, or houserule it in your game if you don't like it, but that's the rule.
My concern with this is how do you end up healing your eidolon through Rejuvenate Eidolon if you don't have hands to do so? That means that every single eidolon base form (minus the biped) has to take the limbs(arms) evolution just so they can heal their eidolon? How does healing work for the first 15 levels of this archetype? I will have to echo and say that requiring the arms evolution to cast spells sounds like a tax on almost every single form a synthesist can take. Sounds terrible.
I was always under the assumption that the eidolon for a synthesist wasn't necessary a physical manifestation, but more like a translucent cloak as the flavor text for the archetype states. You can still move your arms inside to cast spells and do your more magical things, but also gain the physical attacks and attributes of your eidolon. Even though you're inside a cloak, you're still subject to getting hit by AoOs for not casting defensively, since you and your eidolon are one creature.
As an example, I would like to point out the manga Naruto. I liken the quadruped base form to Naruto in his initial 9tails form. As you can see, he is enveloped in a cloak, can still create things with his chakra (or magic in Pathfinder terms), and still has access to the 9tails natural claw attacks. A similar distinction can be made with Sasuke and his Susano'o form and the biped synthesist, but I think you can catch my drift.
Cartigan, have you considered the Still Spell Feat?
I suppose that's one possibility, but then you are increasing the time to cast spells and reducing the spells you can cast at any given level by one level.
And a person using a whip in a fight normally increases the damage of those around them, but the reduction in AC due to being prone and AoOs when standing back up.
Of course, a Fighter is one of the higher damaging classes and he is being limited to possibly increasing others' damage, if they are melee and combat oriented.
A PFS Synthesist needs their Eidolon to have Limb(Arms) to cast spells. Your House Rules may allow for casting without hands, either with no additional requirement or with a feat or with a Concentration check. But RAW for the player races within the game at this moment in time is that you need hands to cast spells.
Why can a Druid cast spells as a snake but not a Synthesist? Because SKR thinks certain options should be traps. You know, for "role-playing" purposes.
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First of all, thanks, Sean, for coming here and explaining the role you see the Synthesist providing.
In hindsight, there are so many ways that a synthesist works her magic differently than her base summoner ally, that it might have made better sense as an alternate class rather than an archetype. But that's water under the bridge now.
I have two questions, regarding the current discussion and a larger issue with the FAQ.
First, I admit that I had a different visuals of a synthesist; I've been picturing someone within a significantly larger ectoplasmic body. If a synthesist is so cramped in there that she can't get an arm free, then I can't imagine how she could fit inside a quadriped's hind legs.
I'll reiterate the example of a naga, who casts spells with somatic components, despite being armless. Presumably, she wiggles her tail just so. Is it possible for a synthesist with a serpentine eidolon to emulate that, perhaps with a feat that doesn't raise the level of her spells?
Second, I am noting a trend among the developers' posts, on the FAQ and in the messageboards. From animal companions (intelligence, weapons) to this thread (arms for casting, enlarge person on eidolons) to Mark and Jason's ruling requiring a free hand to use spiked armor, it seems that the developers are habitually closing down character shticks that players have been enjoying. There's an attitude of "That thing you've been doing? Stop that."
Now, there's also a lot of product out there that offers new options, so I'm not suggesting that everybody's being all grumpy-pants. But I am suggesting that there is an attempt to reign in play that isn't aligned with the way the game is played by the Paizo staff.
So my question is: when you give these kinds of rulings, how much imact do you feel they should have, outside of something like the Pathfinder Society Organized Play environment?
Thank you, again, for your time.
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Cartigan, have you considered the Still Spell Feat? And a person using a whip in a fight normally increases the damage of those around them, but the reduction in AC due to being prone and AoOs when standing back up.
A PFS Synthesist needs their Eidolon to have Limb(Arms) to cast spells. Your House Rules may allow for casting without hands, either with no additional requirement or with a feat or with a Concentration check. But RAW for the player races within the game at this moment in time is that you need hands to cast spells.
not addressed to me, but i considered the still spell feat or rod for my own build, but again its a feat that you would have to take to get around having the limbs evolution. and it would severely limit what spells you could cast at lower levels.
the gist is that biped base form becomes the only viable option for synthesist, as all others lose either a feat from the summoner and 3000gp for the rod, or 2 evolution points to take the limbs. and then it doesn't matter what flavor skin you want to have for your eidolon: suddenly he's got 2 extra hands, your own selective creativity for the class goes out the window because he MUST grow 2 hands in order to cast spells.
damn right in a home game i'd house rule this. but i'm lobbying for change because i don't want to see my favorite game decline in quality.
not addressed to me, but i considered the still spell feat or rod for my own build,
Good luck with that rod and no appendage to use it.
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Good luck with that rod and no appendage to use it.
not addressed to me, but i considered the still spell feat or rod for my own build,
lol also true. i was kind of counting on the carried gear still functioning. since armor is the only gear that goes inert, if you're carrying a rod in your synthesist body within the eidolon shell, it should still be usable. nothing i've heard so far prohibited it.
First, I admit that I had a different visuals of a synthesist; I've been picturing someone within a significantly larger ectoplasmic body. If a synthesist is so cramped in there that she can't get an arm free, then I can't imagine how she could fit inside a quadriped's hind legs.
The eidolon has to be at least the same size as the summoner. So at minimum, you could have a Small summoner with a Small eidolon or a Medium summoner with a Medium eidolon. That doesn't leave the summoner a lot of room inside the eidolon to wiggle around.
I'll reiterate the example of a naga, who casts spells with somatic components, despite being armless. Presumably, she wiggles her tail just so. Is it possible for a synthesist with a serpentine eidolon to emulate that, perhaps with a feat that doesn't raise the level of her spells?
Not as currently presented in the rules, no. The rules assume a humanoid caster, and using a non-humanoid body (whether polymorphed, wild shaped, or fused) means you're limiting yourself.
Second, I am noting a trend among the developers' posts, on the FAQ and in the messageboards. From animal companions (intelligence, weapons)
I don't know what you mean by the comment about Intelligence and weapons. The blog post about Int and animal companions says they can have Int above 2, and with the proper feats they can use weapons and armor (though the GM is given leeway to forbid that).
to this thread (arms for casting, enlarge person on eidolons)
The initial FAQ about that was wrong, and was correctly shortly after: link.
to Mark and Jason's ruling requiring a free hand to use spiked armor
I'm not familiar with that discussion or ruling, but remember that Mark has to deal with PFS issues, much of which are attempts by players with the "if I kill the monsters first, I win and am the best character" mentality, and reducing exploits/cheese/overpowered combos is done to keep a handful of players from dominating the game and making scenarios easy (which means we have to make scenarios harder to remain a challenge for these characters, which makes the scenarios too hard for everyone else).
So my question is: when you give these kinds of rulings, how much imact do you feel they should have, outside of something like the Pathfinder Society Organized Play environment?
We make decisions based on what we feel is best for the game as a whole. If you want to allow something in the game that we've ruled out, that's your power as GM. Just as I told Seraphimpunk, "if you want to houserule it, go ahead."
I think that would have been a good FAQ entry:
Can you cast spells as a Synthesist?
Depends on base form:
Quadrapeds, Serpertines, etc can't cast unless you take arms (limb). As you need 1 free hand and they have no hands.
Bipedals can as they have 2 hands.
Would have been nice to have that clear...
Wrecks a few images in players minds though.
Wrecks a few images in players minds though.Like this one and this one?
That is exactly how i visualized a synthesist.
Does this mean that a regular Summoner cannot cast while using Merge Forms if the eidolons form does not have arms?
**edit**
I think our house game will need to add a custom feat. Synthesist Spell which will act the same as natural spell but apply to sythesist summoners.
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The eidolon has to be at least the same size as the summoner. So at minimum, you could have a Small summoner with a Small eidolon or a Medium summoner with a Medium eidolon. That doesn't leave the summoner a lot of room inside the eidolon to wiggle around.
Fair enough, Sean. Is there enough room in an eidolon that is a size category larger than the summoner? (That sounds like a nice compromise to me. A gnome suspended inside a Medium or Large serpentine body has enough room to cast somatic spells (the same way he could if he were trapped in a genatinous cube) but needs the arms evolution if the eidolon is Small.)
Begin aside:
The ruling I was referencing noted than animal companions cannot use weapons, regardless of their Intelligence scores. Barding, yes, but no weapons. This was a reversal of a previous ruling Josh had made for PFS OP.
There's also been a couple of recent rulings about how quickly a druid's new animal companion learns tricks in the PFS OP environment (which is to say, it'll take a character level or two).
End aside.
We make decisions based on what we feel is best for the game as a whole. If you want to allow something in [your home] game that we've ruled out, that's your power as GM.
That's a good touchstone. Thanks.
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i still see synthesist as being flawed. here's a simple scenario, of a withered gnome going through the withering who sees his medium eidolon as a new lease on life. childhood diseases may have left him a husk of a man physically, but spent plenty of time brooding and exercising his mind and bossing people around.
gnome synthesist:
str 5, 16 when fused
dex 7, 12 when fused
con 9, 15 when fused ( con evolution )
int 14, plunking down 5 points
wis 16, plunking down 12 points
cha 20, plunking down 17 points
hp 7 on his own, 10 when fused, and 7 temporary hp at first level.
fort -1, ref -2, will +5 when not fused,
fort +2, ref +1, will +5 when fused.
AC around 19.
melee heavy mace two handed : +4 (1d8+4)
given a str boost evolution to attack, or a con or dex boost evolution for more hp and temp hp, and natural armor, and mage armor, expect an
@5th level
hp 23 on his own, 43 when fused and 34 temp hp.
probably a 22 AC , +4 when shield is up. 19 str, 15 dex, 16 con.
melee +1 heavy mace: +9(1d8+7)
7 evol pts: str, dex, con evols. natural armor evol.
@10th level
hp 53 on his own, 93 when fused and 88 temp hp.
probably a 32 AC, +4 w/ shield, 22(24) str, 18(20) dex, 16(18) con
14 evol pts: str, dex, con, na x 3, 5 more unspent. not accounting for feats that could be spent into extra evolutions.
melee +1 heavy mace: +16 (1d8+11)
belt of physical perfection +2
and that's without getting creative with evolutions.
or spending feats, and only allocating about 20k gp for equipment by 10th level. he's got huge mental stats, good physical stats. heals his own suit, maybe uses magic device on a wand to heal himself sometimes after combat. never really has to get out of his suit except when sleeping, and when it comes down to it he can summon his eidolon with the spell if he's surprised during the night. and the summoner has a 20 cha, gets 2 bonus 1st level spells / day, and good boost spells to cast on himself throughout the day.
Can you do that with a druid? no. because if you want good physical stats, you're going to have more average wisdom and other mental stats. and you're only going to be able to up them at higher levels with wild shape by a little bit.
gnome druid 10
ac 20, touch 13, flat 17 (+4 hide armor, +3 dex, +1 size, +2 shield)
hp 83, no giant source of temporary hp.
melee small scimitar +11 (1d4+3/18-20)
str 14(16), dex 14(16), con 14(16), int 10, wis 13, cha 12
as a huge tiger (wild shape/beast shape 3):
str 20(22), dex 10(12)
ac 15, touch 9, flat 14 (+1 dex, +6 natural, -2 size)
melee 2 claws +14 (2d6+7), bite +14 (3d6+7/19-20 plus grab)
pounce, rake.
equip: belt of pysical perfection, amulet of mighty fists +1
domain druid. no animal companion.
the disparity comes from summoners treating polymorph effects the way earlier editions of D&D did with shapechange: replacing physical stats completely, and druids in pathfinder adding to those physical stats with current polymorph effects instead of replacing them.
( this isn't an overly specific example. i just put this together at work. its a sketch of a character in two different lives at various levels. don't get hung up on things. i didn't even allocate feats or ability bonus points for either of them )
gnome barbarian 10
when raging:
AC 16, touch 14, flat 13 (+4 hide armor, +3 dex, +1 size, -2 rage)
hp 125; DR 2/- ( 105 when not raging ).
melee +1 greataxe +16 (1d10+10)
str 20(22), dex 14(16), con 18(20), int 10, wis 10, cha 10
equip +1 greataxe, belt of physical perfection +2
summoner (synthesist) has more hp, more str, almost as much damage, way better armor class, than an equivalent level barbarian; before factoring in rage powers, summoner spells know, feats, etc. They're way beyond comparable power of a druid that is focused on combat/wild shape.
yes, you can look at it as "these are the choices you have, not all of them are optimal choices", but i can also look at them and say "synthesist is on crack". could i play a barbarian ? yeah. could i play a druid? yeah. could i play a synthesist? yeah, and i'd get spellcasting as good as a druids for buffs/combat control, and i'd be tougher than a barbarian.
part of that stems from the bad bad bad idea of replacing physical stats. a dev once said they took out feats that gave a benefit for having low scores, like "too ugly to die" because they didn't want to promote that in Pathfinder. well... remove (or better yet fix) synthesist, because you're promoting.
Fair enough, Sean. Is there enough room in an eidolon that is a size category larger than the summoner? (That sounds like a nice compromise to me. A gnome suspended inside a Medium or Large serpentine body has enough room to cast somatic spells (the same way he could if he were trapped in a genatinous cube) but needs the arms evolution if the eidolon is Small.)
I knew that question was next. :) Actually, given the related discussion about the standard summoner's merge forms ability is valid (though the regular summoner only gets that at level 16, and only gets it for 1 round/level/day, whereas the synthesist is fused all the time).
I'm going to talk to Jason about it when he's back from DragonCon and see what we come up with.
Is there any game rule prohibiting that the feet the quadruped has work as limbs (hands) when you take the limbs (ex) evoloution instead of growing a new pair of limbs? or would the summoner be forced by the game mechanics to have an eidolon with 4 feet and 2 hands ?
It's not really a quadruped if the base form doesn't have four feet, is it? :)
Yes. It is. If I want to decide to not cast spells, I should be given that choice. If I DO want to cast spells while having a snake eidolon covering, I should ALSO have that choice. Which doesn't exist. You are FORCING choice A onto people and not allowing choice B.
So, are we raging that Sean won't make us a Natural Spell feat for summoners, or that our GM doesn't want to? Seems like a really easy fix if it's that important. Houserule the Natural Spell feat, or grow a pair (of arms!)
i'm invisible. no one else considers the way synthesist works to be broken ?
I don't.
SP, I've seen you complaining an awful lot on the various synthesist threads about perceived problems, so let me ask you this:
Are you actually currently playing a synthesist?
I am. With early access to the class write-up, I've been playing one weekly since before the book was even publicly available. And you know what? All these corner cases and hypothetical armchair problems you keep suggesting on these threads just don't come up like you seem to suggest. I've enjoyed the hell out of it, and haven't had any real hiccups with the class. Sure, we had the same questions as anyone when it came to healing temporary hit points, but we made a call based on the relevant rules as written (can't heal temporary hit points) and got on with it. Turns out we made the right call. Same with enlarge person. And when I made my character, I didn't give my darn synthesist a Con higher than the eidolon, because that didn't seem to make a lot of sense. Beyond those minor questions that took maybe 2 minutes to resolve by using RAW and common sense, the synthesist has worked fine, and the FAQ just confirmed for my group what a bunch of intelligent gamers came up with on their own.
But you know what we didn't spend a lot of time doing at the game table? Endlessly theorizing about every. single. potential. incompatible. rule. Play one, give it a shot and figure some things out on the fly. If you run into a serious roadblock or have PFS issues, you've got the boards' groupthink and even the possibility of having developers chime in, but I seem to recall in the other synthesist thread that you designed a "Guyver" type synthesist in a suit of power armor, yet you seem awfully hung up on whether you can cast spells in quadruped form. Is your "Guyver" a quadruped? Is this a problem you are currently facing that is grinding your home game to a halt, or just a hypothetical slight you've taken with the developers over what you believe is poorly-conceived design?
Because you'll find that the developers are much more sympathetic and likely to help players out of a jam when they are encountering actual rules hangups that are occurring in play, as opposed to armchair-character-breaking as seems to be so prevalent on the boards these days, with folks who aren't even rolling dice pounding the table demanding satisfaction. I trust they'll fix what needs fixing, and they already have, but they can't cover every corner case or question on a class.
So you can dump the physical stats, crank the mental stats and still end up as a combat monster with high stats in pretty much everything.
Sure, you can, but are you? Is there a player at your table breaking your game by doing this? Is you GM fed up with your PC because you're pulling these shenanigans? Or is it just mock indignation at the possibility that someone, somewhere, might be taking advantage of a rule or class feature as written? If that's the case, let's just toss these rulebooks and play rock-paper-scissors. That's balanced, right? =-)
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@ brandon, Synthesist is on deck for my next PFS character. i'm holding off on it because i do see problems with the class, and i DO see a lot of FAQ surrounding the synthesist, and anticipate changes. So rather than make one, one way, and have to live with it after the changes, or rebuild with limitations, i'm holding off.
I'm concerned with spellcasting in non-biped forms because it seems flawed. People chime in when they see something they think is broken. sometimes you don't have to see it in play to forsee a problem. And not everyone can be priviliged enough to have been playing it for weeks before others.
I generally GM, so I don't get to play as often. I'd rather know in advance, so that when my players ask about stuff, i'm informed.
anyway. another question: if a syntheist is wearing celestial armor, he doesn't get the armor bonus. but can he use the armors 1/day fly ability while fused ? I'm making a 10th level synthesist to grind out some testing with a friend, and wanted to know if using the fly from the armor is legit, or if you just loose all access to the armor you're wearing.