Here's a question on the Synthesist. It says that you use the Eidolon's BAB instead of your own when fused. So if you multi class into fighter does that mean you don't gain any of the BAB for your fighter levels?
Sarrion, that's one possible interpretation. But the wording is analogous to the way Monks gain full BAB when using Flurry of Blows. A 5th-level Fighter / 1st-level Monk has a BAB of +5, or +6/+1 when using Flurry of Blows.
The BAB modifiers sum together.
Ah so then the text is only referencing the fused Summoners BAB. Very nice.
Ah so then the text is only referencing the fused Summoners BAB. Very nice.Sarrion, that's one possible interpretation. But the wording is analogous to the way Monks gain full BAB when using Flurry of Blows. A 5th-level Fighter / 1st-level Monk has a BAB of +5, or +6/+1 when using Flurry of Blows.
The BAB modifiers sum together.
Some people are interpreting it the other way, though they seem to be in the minority. The text itself is ambiguous, since while the text is similar to the Monk's flurry text, it's different enough that the Synthesist text might be referring to total BAB getting replaced rather than Synthesist BAB.
It would really be nice to get official developer feedback on this issue and a few others. Especially when you play a multiclass synthesist in PFS and every once in a while there's a guy who says that my Eidolon's BAB replaces my entire BAB, or that there's no way at all to heal the temporary hit point pool provided by the eidolon's HP.
that is possibly a problem. looks like you are gonna need lots of restoration hehe...
Exhaustion is not the only concern while you forgo sleeping, but otherwise if your GM does not care about 'sleeping rules' and only makes you exhausted if you don't sleep, then well you just need the Undead Appearance evolution with 6 points...
Aspect and greater aspect in the later levels can help out a lot in the area of qualifying for feats,
Don't know exactly what you mean, just remember that with Aspect you cannot take the Ability Increase evolution...
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There is precedent for having daily access to an ability meeting a prerequisite. See Sorcerer's taking Fly ranks after 5th level, for example.
I would have no trouble with a synthesist qualifying for feats based on his merged forms, provided the player affirmed to me that they understood that when not merged, that they lose the feat if they were not able to meet the pre-requisites.
As to needing restorations and 24 hours to 'requalify' for the feat in this case, the rules don't bear that up. If you are a barbarian with 16 str, and you qualify for power attack, and something drains 6 points of str, you lose your power attack. However, if you rage, you go back up to 14, and you can now power attack. Alternately, a friendly mage could cast Bull's Strength on you and get the feat usage back as well, for the duration of the rage or spell. So as soon as he re-merges, he regains access to the feat.
I have no problem with this. My character doesn't even have a weapon to Power Attack with, but wants to be able to in Synth form with the eidolon's natural attacks. It's sort of a waste of a feat, but I'm okay with that for this character concept.
How about a new question for the Devs to answer. If the summoner is undead what happens when fused? Does the eidolon gain undead traits as they are "one being" or does the eidolon cause the undead creature to become "alive" by granting a Con score? Does it lose its Con score and bonus hit points become based on the summoners Chr mod or does it gain both? Does the eidolon gain hit points from positive energy attacks while the undead summoner takes damage so it evens out to a 0 (or vice versa)? While encased in an eidolon fused form can a vampire walk around in daylight?
How about a new question for the Devs to answer. If the summoner is undead what happens when fused? Does the eidolon gain undead traits as they are "one being" or does the eidolon cause the undead creature to become "alive" by granting a Con score? Does it lose its Con score and bonus hit points become based on the summoners Chr mod or does it gain both? Does the eidolon gain hit points from positive energy attacks while the undead summoner takes damage so it evens out to a 0 (or vice versa)? While encased in an eidolon fused form can a vampire walk around in daylight?
The summoner and eidolon become one being that counts as an undead outsider, retaining all their undead traits.
The summoner gains a con score since they no longer use their own and now has a bonus to relevant fort saves, but being undead grants them no bonus hit points for having one. The bonus hit points are still applied to the eidolon's individual hit point calculation and are applied as temporary hit points. Another area where the developers could step in is whether to calculate the eidolon's hit points added as an undead (i.e. pre-fuse or post-fuse HP value).
Don't know exactly what you mean, just remember that with Aspect you cannot take the Ability Increase evolution...
Aspect for claws, now you can take improved natural weapon as a feat. I said it could help some, and power attack isn't the only feat an eidolon benefits from.
How about a new question for the Devs to answer. If the summoner is undead what happens when fused? Does the eidolon gain undead traits as they are "one being" or does the eidolon cause the undead creature to become "alive" by granting a Con score? Does it lose its Con score and bonus hit points become based on the summoners Chr mod or does it gain both? Does the eidolon gain hit points from positive energy attacks while the undead summoner takes damage so it evens out to a 0 (or vice versa)? While encased in an eidolon fused form can a vampire walk around in daylight?
Good luck getting the devs to chime in - they've hardly said a thing about the Synthesist. I think I can field all these questions to a reasonable extent, though.
I think the most reasonable interpretation for undead synthesists is that the summoner portion is still undead but the eidolon you're fused with is still a living creature. Thus, while fused, I think you would indeed use its CON score. The eidolon's temporary HP would be modified by your CON score, since it is a living being, but your normal HP would still get modified by CHA as it did before the fusing. This is the iffyest issue you brought up.
For positive and negative energy, it looks like both would damage you. Positive and negative energy are both effects dependent on type (heals/harms living and does the opposite to undead) and for each of them you count as whichever type is worse (so both of them harm you). Unless you have undead appearance, then negative energy will heal you.
A vampire would not gain the ability to walk around in the daylight simply because he's fused. Fusing does not get rid of your old qualities. For instance, if you already had acid resist 5, you still do while fused. If you had vampire weaknesses, you still do.
I have it on good authority (Mr. Reynolds himself) that the synthesist is definitely in queue for the FAQ. Given the recent proliferation of FAQ additions, I expect we won't have much longer to wait for clarifications on many of these issues.
I really don't care what it the answers are, our DM already has the critter up and running in game. Just figured as there are some rules conflicts (positive/negative energy) for instance they should be mentioned for FAQ material. The daylight one is probably the one I am most interested in, just to see if you are in fact "in" a living eidolon. If so a very very good argument could be brought to bear on the fact that the sunlight never touches the vampire. I see the RAW side but with so many things left unanswered in a wishy washy way, it is still flavorful for a recurring BBEG type villain. A mobile casket if you will.
How about a new question for the Devs to answer. If the summoner is undead what happens when fused? Does the eidolon gain undead traits as they are "one being" or does the eidolon cause the undead creature to become "alive" by granting a Con score? Does it lose its Con score and bonus hit points become based on the summoners Chr mod or does it gain both? Does the eidolon gain hit points from positive energy attacks while the undead summoner takes damage so it evens out to a 0 (or vice versa)? While encased in an eidolon fused form can a vampire walk around in daylight?
Same problem we had in our group with a Lich Synthesist (easily achievable if you take CWI)... GM houseruled that Eidolon calculates its HP using its CON, then sums to the normal Summoner HP (base on CHA). For fortitude and concentration check (but not for the Breath weapon evo) he used his CHA modifier.
I have it on good authority (Mr. Reynolds himself) that the synthesist is definitely in queue for the FAQ. Given the recent proliferation of FAQ additions, I expect we won't have much longer to wait for clarifications on many of these issues.
Is he going to clarify all these issues? I read somewhere that he have taken only the Healing Issue into account, but I cannot find the thread... This would be great otherwise!
Is he going to clarify all these issues? I read somewhere that he have taken only the Healing Issue into account, but I cannot find the thread... This would be great otherwise!
All I know is what I posted -FAQ clarifications for the synthesist are on his list. To what extent he'll address these clues, I haven't the foggiest. =-)
Ok thanks :)
I don't keep tabs on the frequency of FAQ updates...about when might we expect some clarification? I understand if we're in for a long wait since the entire archetype will likely need an overhaul.
Having more than two hand will not qualify you for multiattack though since the Synthesist cannot take the feat himself...I believe there is a feat that allows the eidolon to remain even if the summoner are sleeping. This means the eidolon can remain indefinatly and qualify for feats itself, including multi-attack.It only lasts a number of rounds after he would normally be banished :(
2. You and your eidolon could take fast healing, eventually doubling your maximum healing capability by spiting the damage between you and your eidolon equally.XDThats kindof murky territory...the wording of the rules involved might agree though. Since you choose evolutions on separate occasions than when you fuse, and the wording only prevents you from selecting key evolutions so many times, it doesn't prevent you from benefiting from them...this could imply twice the possible fast healing, or natural armor bonuses ect...
Same bonuses don't stack, no matter what. Fast healing on yourself only heals your hit points, fast healing on the eidolon only heals them. Just so happens your two hit points are very closely depended on each other, and you can chose which damage goes where. Then again, you are supposed to keep all the feats and abilities your summoner has, so perhaps I am wrong.
If we are going to see a FAQ soon, hopefully we will also see an "companion boon" like feat for the summoner as well...
Got a new question for you guys.
It's obvious that a synthesist with the Large evolution counts as a large creature, since the synthesist gains the evolutions of the eidolon.
However, what about a small synthesist fused with a medium eidolon? Does he count as medium or small? The only text that references size is "the eidolon must be at least the same size as the synthesist."
RAI I can see how a gnome synthesist with a medium eidolon would be considered medium while fused, but I'm interested in what RAW says. To me it looks like you might still count as small, and maintain the size modifiers for being small (penalties for intimidate, CMB/CMD, and whether or not you can be tripped/grabbed/swallowed; bonus on attack, AC, stealth, and fly).
Got a new question for you guys.
It's obvious that a synthesist with the Large evolution counts as a large creature, since the synthesist gains the evolutions of the eidolon.
However, what about a small synthesist fused with a medium eidolon? Does he count as medium or small? The only text that references size is "the eidolon must be at least the same size as the synthesist."
RAI I can see how a gnome synthesist with a medium eidolon would be considered medium while fused, but I'm interested in what RAW says. To me it looks like you might still count as small, and maintain the size modifiers for being small (penalties for intimidate, CMB/CMD, and whether or not you can be tripped/grabbed/swallowed; bonus on attack, AC, stealth, and fly).
Nope, remember, it specifically says the two become one. If you take a small + medium, you don't get small, you get medium. The eidelon can't be made smaller than it is, and you are becoming part of it when it becomes part of you. So the smallest you can be is the size of the eidelon.
*Snip*Nope, remember, it specifically says the two become one. If you take a small + medium, you don't get small, you get medium. The eidelon can't be made smaller than it is, and you are becoming part of it when it becomes part of you. So the smallest you can be is the size of the eidelon.
+1
If we are going to see a FAQ soon, hopefully we will also see an "companion boon" like feat for the summoner as well...Not likely the Eidolon is probably too powerful, maybe a 2 level bump feat for multi-class summoners but 4 levels is definitely too much.
The synth archtype is obviously geared towards being up in front on the battle. Mix in the fact that the eidolon is loosing skills and feats it stops being so "powerful." In terms of power the synth archtype is remarkably weaker than a normal summoner. Not to mention a druid is still arguably more powerful than the summoner anyways. The feat should exist and is pretty much a requirement to keep the synth archtype on a field with the fighter or barbarian, the glut of hit points doesn't do much if you can't do anything besides swing at a mob with a medium BAB. It is good, and I would take it because of the flavor normally, but it isn't on par to where it should be and that is where multiclassing would come into play. The fact that multiclassing is a valid option in a game where they go to great lengths to make staying in a single class more attractive, should make the point clear. Taking 3-4 levels of fighter to get feats and combat options shouldn't be an attractive option for a caster archtype that losses as much as the synth summoner does when that doesn't plan on PrCing...
The synth archtype is obviously geared towards being up in front on the battle. Mix in the fact that the eidolon is loosing skills and feats it stops being so "powerful." In terms of power the synth archtype is remarkably weaker than a normal summoner. Not to mention a druid is still arguably more powerful than the summoner anyways. The feat should exist and is pretty much a requirement to keep the synth archtype on a field with the fighter or barbarian, the glut of hit points doesn't do much if you can't do anything besides swing at a mob with a medium BAB. It is good, and I would take it because of the flavor normally, but it isn't on par to where it should be and that is where multiclassing would come into play. The fact that multiclassing is a valid option in a game where they go to great lengths to make staying in a single class more attractive, should make the point clear. Taking 3-4 levels of fighter to get feats and combat options shouldn't be an attractive option for a caster archtype that losses as much as the synth summoner does when that doesn't plan on PrCing...If we are going to see a FAQ soon, hopefully we will also see an "companion boon" like feat for the summoner as well...Not likely the Eidolon is probably too powerful, maybe a 2 level bump feat for multi-class summoners but 4 levels is definitely too much.Your kidding right? Yeah the synthesist might have a medium bab, but he has evolutions that gives him crazy strength. Just the large and huge evos will bump his strength by 16 points. Just that alone will help him hit as well as barbs and fighters. This doesn't even count the strength boosts from leveling and the strength evos.
Also since he either does all natural attacks so everything is at full BAB or gets multiweapon fighting and doesn't even need to get into iteratives to do a bazilion hits.
Agreed. Summoners are capable of the second largest single target damage per round of characters I've seen, while still having ridiculously high HP and AC totals and 2 very good saves. Coupled with reach from size and trip they can very easily protect other players who keep the eidolon between them and more enemies.
I'll grant that no skills/feats and the lack of double actions per round (summoner buff/healing/ddooring+eidolon beasting) can be considered a drawback of this archetype. As I looked at the build for a synthesist, I realized that a handful of feats I would take as a regular summoner would be rendered negligible with summoner fusion.
FYI, just had a meeting with Jason, Stephen, and Rob (author of the archetype), we've reached a consensus on the answers, I'm typing them up and I'll be posting them later today in the FAQ.
The synth archtype is obviously geared towards being up in front on the battle. Mix in the fact that the eidolon is loosing skills and feats it stops being so "powerful." In terms of power the synth archtype is remarkably weaker than a normal summoner. Not to mention a druid is still arguably more powerful than the summoner anyways. The feat should exist and is pretty much a requirement to keep the synth archtype on a field with the fighter or barbarian, the glut of hit points doesn't do much if you can't do anything besides swing at a mob with a medium BAB. It is good, and I would take it because of the flavor normally, but it isn't on par to where it should be and that is where multiclassing would come into play. The fact that multiclassing is a valid option in a game where they go to great lengths to make staying in a single class more attractive, should make the point clear. Taking 3-4 levels of fighter to get feats and combat options shouldn't be an attractive option for a caster archtype that losses as much as the synth summoner does when that doesn't plan on PrCing...If we are going to see a FAQ soon, hopefully we will also see an "companion boon" like feat for the summoner as well...Not likely the Eidolon is probably too powerful, maybe a 2 level bump feat for multi-class summoners but 4 levels is definitely too much.Your kidding right? Yeah the synthesist might have a medium bab, but he has evolutions that gives him crazy strength. Just the large and huge evos will bump his strength by 16 points. Just that alone will help him hit as well as barbs and fighters. This doesn't even count the strength boosts from leveling and the strength evos.
Also since he either does all natural attacks so everything is at full BAB or gets multiweapon fighting and doesn't even need to get into iteratives to do a bazilion hits.
Unfortunately I'm not. I don't play with a DM who pulls many punches and actually plays npcs as somewhat intelligent. When using an adventure he changes things around so they are actually a challenge and not a PC steam roller event.
"Crazy strength" would be available to any intelligent fighter via buffs and smart item choices. Most of the evolutions that you are talking about require a very large investment of points and certainly level requirements. Basically you are a one trick pony, and unless your DM is taking pity on you, once that trick is figured out you are out of luck as you have none of the extra utility that a fighter does. You sunk all your points and feats into your "trick." Can it be nice, yes, but so can any of the other one trick pony builds until they suck. Theory with numbers is great until it is put into practical use and it falls apart. A "bazilion" attacks is great, until you are locked down and can't make any...
FYI, just had a meeting with Jason, Stephen, and Rob (author of the archetype), we've reached a consensus on the answers, I'm typing them up and I'll be posting them later today in the FAQ.
A big "Yay!" for you.
FYI, just had a meeting with Jason, Stephen, and Rob (author of the archetype), we've reached a consensus on the answers, I'm typing them up and I'll be posting them later today in the FAQ.
OMDG Thank you!
But the comparison wasn't with the fighter, it was with the druid who gets the feat. Better spell list and able to fully buff out the companion at full strength. Versus a synth who has a worse spell list and action economy. To keep up with the fighter a synth will be tossing all of its points (8th level, 4 large, 6 for physical stats +4 each assuming 1st and 6th/7th) leaving 1 point. Or go the improved armor route as it isn't likely synths can wear armor and spend the cash on the attributes freeing up a few points for your "trick" but your won't have comparable stats as you can't afford them. Yes they can have good str and ac but that is all they are going to have by going this direction.
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Synthesist and armor: FAQ!
Synthesist and healing: FAQ!
Synthesist and ability damage/drain: FAQ!
Synthesist and other afflictions/penalties/effects: FAQ!
Sythesist and Skilled or Ability Score Increase: FAQ!
Synthesist and HD/BAB questions: FAQ!
Synthesist and humanoid-only spells: FAQ! (This one probably needs a little more clarification, but I can't edit FAQ entries from home. The important part is the "whichever is worse" issue, whether you're dealing with a helpful spell or a harmful one.)
Synthesist and multiple attacks: FAQ!
Okay, now I'm tired, and have to pack for Gen Con. (I wanted to get these answered before GC because I know some PFS people may want to play their synthesist characters at the show.)
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Summoner: Can a synthesist (page 80) use spells on himself that don't affect outsiders, such as enlarge person?
No. The archetype says he counts as his type and as an outsider, whichever is worse, which means that the outsider type prevents the enlarge person from working because that spell only works on humanoids. Note that even the share spells class ability doesn't allow this to work because that ability only works on spells with "Target: you," and enlarge person is "Target: one humanoid creature" and thus does not qualify. (Example "Target: you" spells are blink, disguise self, and expeditious retreat.)
—Sean K Reynolds, today
Really.
The summoner may cast a spell with a target of “you” on his eidolon (as a spell with a range of touch) instead of on himself. A summoner may cast spells on his eidolon even if the spells normally do not affect creatures of the eidolon’s type (outsider). Spells cast in this way must come from the summoner spell list.
Is Paizo then changing the meaning of Share Spells to mean something other than what it says? If the synthesist becomes his Eidolon, Share Spells specifically says this works.
Share Spells is clearly worded to allow the Summoner to cast Personal and humanoid-only target spells on an Eidolon. I fail to see how it was ever confusing that he couldn't cast those spells on himself if he and the Eidolon are the same creature even if the archetype specifically says he is counted as whatever type is worst for the synthesist between humanoid and outsider. Moreover, I fail to understand why Paizo decided to change this fact.
Summoner: Can a synthesist (page 80) make attacks from his own body (such as manufactured weapons, unarmed strikes, or natural attacks) and attacks from the fused eidolon in the same round?
Yes, but the fused character is still subject to the Maximum Attacks entry in the table for an eidolon of his level (unlike a regular summoner, this limit does include attacks made with weapons). For example, a 1st-level synthesist is limited to 3 attacks per round, whether those three are dagger/off-hand dagger/bite, dagger/bite/claw, dagger/claw/claw, and so on.
That is quite possibly even more confusing.
Too bad that your attacks are limited to the max attacks of the eidolon. There goes my monk synthesist build =(
Really.
The summoner may cast a spell with a target of “you” on his eidolon (as a spell with a range of touch) instead of on himself. A summoner may cast spells on his eidolon even if the spells normally do not affect creatures of the eidolon’s type (outsider). Spells cast in this way must come from the summoner spell list.Is Paizo then changing the meaning of Share Spells to mean something other than what it says? If the synthesist becomes his Eidolon, Share Spells specifically says this works.
Share Spells is clearly worded to allow the Summoner to cast Personal and humanoid-only target spells on an Eidolon.
Where does it say that? It says "spells with a target of 'you."" Enlarge person isn't "you," it's "one humanoid creature," and thus doesn't qualify for the share spells ability at all, synthesist or regular summoner--not because of the "humanoid" part of the Target, but because of the not-"you" part of the Target.
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Cartigan, it's right there in the faq.
"Note that even the share spells class ability doesn't allow this to work because that ability only works on spells with "Target: you," and enlarge person is "Target: one humanoid creature" and thus does not qualify."
Share spells does not specifically say this works, because it sets the limit to Target: you spells.
As for the outsider element, it would work except that enlarge person doesn't qualify for share spells.
Spells that do qualify for share spells by being a Target: you ability would be able to ignore the outsider bit and function normally.
Reread the entry and you'll see that the question itself is about all spells, not those specifically allowed through the share spells feature.
I've got two questions about the summoner stuff. If the synthesist doesn't make ANY of the eidolon's attacks, choosing instead to make only normal iterative attacks or a flurry of blows, are they still limited to the eidolon maximum attacks? I ask because each example presented has a bite or claw or some such included in the attack routine.
1 level dip in synthesist is the easiest way to go from 7str, dex, and con, to excellent physical stats. It's like the 3.5 druid wildshape in that respect, only worse since you just need a single level.
The other question is: Could you finish this entry?
Summoner: What happens when a synthesist (page 80) takes ability damage or drain while the eidolon is present?
The second paragraph is unfinished. It reads:
There is no "spillover" for extra ability damage or drain beyond what it takes to reduce the eidolon to 0; if an eidolon with Constitution 1 takes 3 points of Con damage and dies, the summoner doesn't take the "extra" 2 points of Con damage. However, ongoing effects (like continuing poison
And it stops there :p
I think what Cartigan and thepuregamer are getting at is:
Share Spells (Ex)
The summoner may cast a spell with a target of “you” on his eidolon (as a spell with a range of touch) instead of on himself. A summoner may cast spells on his eidolon even if the spells normally do not affect creatures of the eidolon’s type (outsider). Spells cast in this way must come from the summoner spell list.
This ability does not allow the eidolon to share abilities that are not spells, even if they function like spells.
Which i always thought implied that you could cast spells from the summoner spell list that, although they would typically only affect humanoids, can be applied to the eidolon.
Even though the Synthesist is now an outsider, share spells does not imply that there is a prerequisite of the summoner to be of the humanoid subtype.
Anyways I guess I would see if this can be house ruled at my game.
Interesting side note, i didn't realize that enlarge person was restricted to humanoids. I guess there is a negative to being a tiefling or aasimar.
Just to add to that, there also isn't a single personal spell (on the summoners spell list) with a target of you that I can find that is restricted to the humanoid subtype. Which makes the second and third sentence very redundant. Perhaps that's why it is also read to imply that enlarge person could affect the eidolon, regular or otherwise.
I rarely post on these threads, but... I'm going to take a second to weigh in on this, and specifically throw a wrench into the Armor thing, because there's a problem with it.
Since you gain the Outsider type as part of the fusion, there is a rules exception for all of us trying to get into Armor while fused, and it actually rewards - gasp - role play. Please prepare for blowing your mind:
pathfinder srd ( http://www.d20pfsrd.com/bestiary/rules-for-monsters/creature-types#TOC-Outs ider )
Proficient with whatever type of armor (light, medium, or heavy) it is described as wearing, as well as all lighter types. Outsiders not indicated as wearing armor are not proficient with armor. Outsiders are proficient with shields if they are proficient with any form of armor.
Okay, so I wear Chainmail as a Summoner... i then tell the DM "I fuse with my Eidolon who looks like this and is wearing chain mail too. RAW, i now get my chainmail armor!"
Just saying, as this would be the right way to do it when you make your Summoner/remake it when you level up. Heck, if you're really batting for the fences, tell us its depicted as wearing plate.
In the Ultimate Magic Eidolon descriptions, they specifically state that any armor that the eidolon may appear to have is just for appearance sake.
It's just like Mystique (from x-men), she may look like she has Wolverine's claws but they are actually fleshy bits with the appearance of metal.
Quote me, please... i didn't see this, but I could have missed it.
This is just from UM but i think it's what you're talking about.
Source: Ultimate Magic
The eidolon looks like a humanoid warrior. The natural armor of a Bodyguard eidolon appears to be a suit of metal plate, though this armor is actually part of the eidolon’s body. Bodyguard eidolons are normally trained in a variety of dangerous weapons.
11 points: Base Form biped; Primary Evolutions improved natural armor, weapon training; Secondary Evolutions ability increase (Strength), fast healing, weapon training (martial).