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Ok so, everyone seems to be barking about "the only advantage" this and "the synthesist loses too much" that ect.
These are the advantages of the synthesist:
1. Primary combatant now gains more AC/Saves from shield ally.
2. Summoner is now significantly less vulnerable via saves(con/dex bonuses), AC, and hit points.
3. Aspect allows more points to be applied to a single unit(3 more), and gains 2 more points from not needing one Limbs evolution.
4. Magic item economy geared towards survival is greatly increased. You no longer need alternating sets of AC/con gear for both units.
5. Many feats that would have previously been used to enable one supporting the other are no longer necessary.
6. A summoner can invest more heavily into mental stats for more skills, greater skill checks, saves, and spell casting.
7. Certain HD or skill rank reliant abilities and options the eidolon would use are now available in strengths of 20 HD/Base skill.
8. A synthesist have have a higher base move speed.
There are three questions I would like to ask in order to clarify the potential for not just synthesists, but for summoners in general.
In UM, a new feat Extra Evolution was added. It is worded EXACTLY the same way as the +2 natural armor evolution was, which had to be clarified from "can be taken once per 5 levels" to "once MORE per 5 levels". Can a level 20 summoner gain extra evolution 4, or 5 times?
Can the Improved Natural Armor evolution be taken by a NORMAL level 20 summoner 3 times via aspect, and then can the eidolon take it 3 times? This question came up some time ago as many players considered aspect to share limitations of the number of evolutions you could take with the eidolon.
Lastly, if a summoner could indeed NORMALLY take up to say, 5 natural armor evolutions alongside an eidolon who does the same, can a synthesist do the same and benefit from a total 10 Improved Natural Armor evolutions? This would compound the potential benefits of a synthesist to a great degree and I highly doubt it will become possible.
For everyone screaming about the disadvantages of the synthesist, which for the most part is the loss of two turns per round, keep in mind it's not supposed to be a flat improvement, it's a change in the flavor of the character. Ultimately this character would be a great deal harder to kill than either the summoner or eidolon, and is obviously geared towards simply playing as a tough eidolon without losing the caster options of the summoner.
The drawbacks are as follows.
1. Loss of multiple turns per round for buffing/healing.
2. Greatly increased difficulty in healing potential and speed.
3. Cannot go beyond natural attack limit with weapons/iterative attacks.
4. Less skill checks (can't roll two perception checks)
3 relates to this: A summoner gets a lot more feats than their eidolon, and could easily gain 7 MORE attacks from a two weapon fighting style+haste (potential 17 damage rolls per round). Likewise, a level dipping fighter or barbarian with pounce is kind of rough. Making the player atleast invest a few more levels to reach 4 or 5 attacks doesn't seem terribly horrible to keep the cost of the benefits up, since a properly optimized multi class build would STILL be brutal.
There are three questions I would like to ask in order to clarify the potential for not just synthesists, but for summoners in general.
Can the Improved Natural Armor evolution be taken by a NORMAL level 20 summoner 3 times via aspect, and then can the eidolon take it 3 times? This question came up some time ago as many players considered aspect to share limitations of the number of evolutions you could take with the eidolon.
Sure, you can take it. However, since they're the same type the Synthesist's natural armor bonus and the natural armor bonus she gets from fusion would not stack. You use the eidolon's natural armor when fused, not your own.
It's actually a little stickier than that, but that's what any reasonable ruling will be. Synthesist AC is already in the upper troposphere - there's no need to boost it into the stratosphere.
These are the advantages of the synthesist:
1. Primary combatant now gains more AC/Saves from shield ally.
2. Summoner is now significantly less vulnerable via saves(con/dex bonuses), AC, and hit points.
3. Aspect allows more points to be applied to a single unit(3 more), and gains 2 more points from not needing one Limbs evolution.
Counter: The opponent is alive much longer due to not having 4x as many attacks being thrown at it from just one character.
A war of attrition is not something you want to have with the DM.4. Magic item economy geared towards survival is greatly increased. You no longer need alternating sets of AC/con gear for both units.
I consider that a failure of design of the Summoner in the first place.
5. Many feats that would have previously been used to enable one supporting the other are no longer necessary.
What feats are you referring to that are "necessary?"
6. A summoner can invest more heavily into mental stats for more skills, greater skill checks, saves, and spell casting.
Unless the Eidolon gets dismissed then you end up with Unwildshaped Druid syndrome. You can't actually do anything but try to avoid dying.
7. Certain HD or skill rank reliant abilities and options the eidolon would use are now available in strengths of 20 HD/Base skill.
What.
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To Calyp why would you dip Synthesist as a melee now? Just for pounce? But you lose strength and quite a bit of it. You can at most have 16 strength as a quadreped for a level 4 synthesist. Your level bumps in strength can't benefit your eidolon. Inherent bonuses can't effect your Eidolon either because it can't be targetted as a separate creature.
You give up that much damage for no increase to attacks, a lower strength and you give up BAB. For some temp hp and some nat armor that is probably lower than the full plate or medium armor you were wearing.
Exactly! Paizo designs their classes to discourage the one level dips. There has to be limits that make it unattractive, or every fighter (in a 15 build point game) is going to want to dip into it automatically.
If anyone was going to dip, I would turn it around and say monk1/synthesist N would be more attractive for bonuses to saves and WIS bonus to AC, or fighter 1/synthesist N to get martial weapons and an additional combat feat.
General thread: to keep beating that dead horse, if a normal eidolon included weapon attacks in their attack limit the attacks ruling would at least make sense, but as is the synthesist's limit seems pretty arbitrary.
But the faq entry on that seems to indicate that the synthesist can use his own arms, without paying 2 evolution points for an overlapping set of arms, to do additional attacks the standard eidolon would not have. So, those attacks are being wrapped up into the max attacks limit. At least the additional rule looks like a max attacks "that can be taken this round" limit, and not a max attack evolutions that can be purchased. So, first level would still be 3 attacks chosen by evolutions, 5 possible attacks because of inherent attacks from the synthesist, and 3 usable in any given round.
As far as I can tell:
Std eidolon cattaur is: Quadruped, 2 for limbs(arms), 1 for claws(legs), 2 for Weapon Training(sickle) and can choose primary claw/claw/bite or sickle/sickle/secondary claw/sec claw/sec bite.
vs
Fusion eidolon cattaur is: Quadruped, 1 for claws(legs), using the synthesist's class based simple weapon proficiency and can do primary claw/claw/bite or sickle/sickle/sec bite or sickle/sec claw/sec bite.
(ignoring two weapon fighting penalties at the moment as being non optimal. The penalties apply the same to both creatures. Was going for max number of attacks)
Yes, the attack sequence drops a bit, but the cost in evolution points is 5 vs 1. I would take the limitation in order to free up four evolution points. And yes, every archetype has trade offs that make is "just slightly" less appealing than the base class. That is at least what the designers intend. The draw of the archetypes is that the bonuses that the player wants for his character are in the gains column, and the things the player is not as interested in are in the losses column. If they are, then the archetype looks attractive.
But the faq entry on that seems to indicate that the synthesist can use his own arms, without paying 2 evolution points for an overlapping set of arms, to do additional attacks the standard eidolon would not have.
There is nothing a Synthesist can do that Eidolon couldn't already. There is no reason to limit BAB attacks along with natural attacks.
Bit late, but might get a copy of the synthesist stats as well? Thanks.
Before I start off this "counter rant", keep in mind that not every archtype is superior to it's base. MANY of the fighter archtypes are argued to be worse than their base counterpart, and the synthesist need not be superior to the core summoner. If you don't like the synthesist, just remember it's not paizo's job to sell you on it. Just don't play it. There are obviously still plenty of players who like the archetype.
These are the advantages of the synthesist:
1. Primary combatant now gains more AC/Saves from shield ally.
2. Summoner is now significantly less vulnerable via saves(con/dex bonuses), AC, and hit points.
3. Aspect allows more points to be applied to a single unit(3 more), and gains 2 more points from not needing one Limbs evolution.Counter: The opponent is alive much longer due to not having 4x as many attacks being thrown at it from just one character.
A war of attrition is not something you want to have with the DM.4. Magic item economy geared towards survival is greatly increased. You no longer need alternating sets of AC/con gear for both units.I consider that a failure of design of the Summoner in the first place.
5. Many feats that would have previously been used to enable one supporting the other are no longer necessary.What feats are you referring to that are "necessary?"
6. A summoner can invest more heavily into mental stats for more skills, greater skill checks, saves, and spell casting.Unless the Eidolon gets dismissed then you end up with Unwildshaped Druid syndrome. You can't actually do anything but try to avoid dying.
7. Certain HD or skill rank reliant abilities and options the eidolon would use are now available in strengths of 20 HD/Base skill.What.
A summoner provides very little actual damage to any fight by themselves, and the buffs/summons will not be quadrupling the damage of the eidolon. Being able to add weapon iteratives will likewise not quadruple the damage of an eidolon/summoner compared to a synthesist, especially factoring the cost of maintaining a good set of weapons for it.
If a summoner does contribute in person, it will both require extensive item investment, providing a minimal benefit at best. Futher, extensive feat investment beyond that of the loss that synthesists suffer would be needed as well. If that isn't enough, putting EITHER of these two resources towards offense in such a way would leave the summoner more vulnerable than he already is.
Ultimately, characters deal over 4x as much damage when they are conscious and pesent, which won't be the case if the summoner doesn't invest in defenses. A synthesist gets these defenses handed to them and enhanced, and maintains a damage output perfectly acceptable for a party melee. Saying a normal summoner/eidolon deals 4x as much damage is downright trollish.
Just because you consider the item economy of summoners to be a failure of item economy doesn't make it true or relevent, so you simply validate that strength of a synthesist. Further, if the mechanic of summoners was NOT limited, it would be the exact same benefit. It takes two armor items, two dex items, two resistance items ect. to keep one source of hit points between the two characters guarded. The synthesist doubles the economy of defensive items either way.
If the eidolon is dismissed, the summoner simply casts summon eidolon and tries not to die for one round. Having a high wisdom score, a circumstance bonus to all saves, possible spell resistance, and a good natural will save reduce the likelyhood of this happening a great deal more than a regular summoner.
A good example of my skill point/HD mention is cornugon smash: Your skill ranks as a summoner+racial are higher than an eidolons, so you are more likely to demoralize enemies. Likewise if it is used against you, wisdom bonus+10+HD are the dc, which would be significantly higher as a synthesist. The eidolon can be targeted as a lower HD creature by more spells and special attacks.
Some feats like Bodyguard, ride related feats, and two feat dips for Diehard enhance the survivability regarding the "squishy summoner" issue normal summoners have. A synthesist can bypass all of those and be incredibly hard to kill.
The ONLY reason to play a synthesist, is to remove "squishy summoner syndrome" from the equation (and for obvious roleplay values). Trying to coax the developers into making it more offensive is, in my opinion, just plain greedy. Be a regular summoner if you want to build your eidolon with more iterative attacks.
I agree that yes, an eidolon can fight at full actions until you're out of spells to heal them normally. If that's your style, simply don't play a synthesist.
p.s. having to put 2 points into another Limbs evolution to carry a shield basically says the synthesist saves another 2 evolution points while gaining a +2/4 circumstance bonus to all saves.
Bit late, but might get a copy of the synthesist stats as well? Thanks.
** spoiler omitted **
http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/base-classes/summoner/archetypes/paizo---su mmoner-archetypes/synthesist
for some reason there's a space between the su and mmoner at the end, close that gap for the url...I couldn't get rid of it
LinkBit late, but might get a copy of the synthesist stats as well? Thanks.
** spoiler omitted **
Summoner: Can a synthesist (page 80) make attacks from his own body (such as manufactured weapons, unarmed strikes, or natural attacks) and attacks from the fused eidolon in the same round?
Yes, but the fused character is still subject to the Maximum Attacks entry in the table for an eidolon of his level (unlike a regular summoner, this limit does include attacks made with weapons). For example, a 1st-level synthesist is limited to 3 attacks per round, whether those three are dagger/off-hand dagger/bite, dagger/bite/claw, dagger/claw/claw, and so on.
Remember also that the synthesist is still subject to the rules of combining manufactured weapon attacks and natural weapon attacks in the same round (in that the natural weapons are always considered secondary and therefore have a -5 attack penalty).
Sorry to add more to the questions already answered.
So a summoner can make attacks from their own body? From your wooding, this means that they use their own physical attributes rather than the eidolon's? If not, does the eidolon need arms evolution to still use their manufactured weapons or natural attacks (if something like claws)? Or do synthesist eidolons get arms and hands for free if they are not bipedal?
Before I start off this "counter rant", keep in mind that not every archtype is superior to it's base. MANY of the fighter archtypes are argued to be worse than their base counterpart, and the synthesist need not be superior to the core summoner. If you don't like the synthesist, just remember it's not paizo's job to sell you on it. Just don't play it. There are obviously still plenty of players who like the archetype.Archetypes shouldn't be superior or inferior to the base, just play differently. Saying that Paizo has made bad archetypes before isn't really a defense, and it sort of is their job to sell people on the product they present.
I will admit that I'm not certain how much the attack limit is going to matter in real play. How many synthesists were planning on using a combination of BAB attacks and naturals over all primary natural attacks?
I wonder if the synthesist attack cap is supposed to be absolute or a base. Can you still get an extra attack from haste if you're at the cap? What about adding attacks for TWF, or an ability like flurry of blows? My guess is that the cap is hard, which sucks.
Since it has gotten kind of buried I'd also like to bring up the improved ability evolution ruling again. If they had just said that a synthesist can't take it, sort of like they did on the aspect chain, that's one thing, but their stated reason doesn't jive. You, as the fused summoner, have gained the evolution, so it should apply to your mental stat. At the very least if they decide to keep this ruling the skilled evolution also shouldn't work for a synthesist, for consistency's sake.
You've got a good point there, I guess I drifted away from what should have my main point: Archetypes aren't going to be for everyone, and they don't always mean "more damage" ect.
I agree totally regarding the ability bonus. The original text clearly states the summoner gains all the bonuses that the eidolon does, and 'access' to all of the eidolons evolutions. It seems outside the spirit of the archetype to say they dont get the mental stat boostsing evolutions.
Sorry to add more to the questions already answered.So a summoner can make attacks from their own body? From your wooding, this means that they use their own physical attributes rather than the eidolon's? If not, does the eidolon need arms evolution to still use their manufactured weapons or natural attacks (if something like claws)? Or do synthesist eidolons get arms and hands for free if they are not bipedal?
They use the eidolon's physical attributes. That much is made abundantly clear in the text. You are simply allowed to use attacks with your own set of limbs as well as the new ones you get from evolutions.
A half-elf aquatic synthesist would indeed have arms, but she would not have the Limbs (Arms) evolution, and thus couldn't take any evolutions that's depended on Limbs (Arms) without first taking that evolution for yet another pair. She just has a pair of arms because half-elves have arms, and that's not an evolution.
Quite honestly they should probably just rewrite the archtype, crunch and fluff both. Given the amount of "buzz" generated here on the boards about it, it isn't like there is a lack of interest for it. Also even after the FAQ, there are some questions remaining from both before and new questions regarding the FAQ rulings. Rewriting the entire thing to clean up and clarify it is quite probably warranted at this point...
Quite honestly they should probably just rewrite the archtype, crunch and fluff both. Given the amount of "buzz" generated here on the boards about it, it isn't like there is a lack of interest for it. Also even after the FAQ, there are some questions remaining from both before and new questions regarding the FAQ rulings. Rewriting the entire thing to clean up and clarify it is quite probably warranted at this point...
They shouldn't release it without an example fuzed summoner either, in my opinion...
Sorry to add more to the questions already answered.So a summoner can make attacks from their own body? From your wooding, this means that they use their own physical attributes rather than the eidolon's? If not, does the eidolon need arms evolution to still use their manufactured weapons or natural attacks (if something like claws)? Or do synthesist eidolons get arms and hands for free if they are not bipedal?
They use the eidolon's physical attributes. That much is made abundantly clear in the text. You are simply allowed to use attacks with your own set of limbs as well as the new ones you get from evolutions.
A half-elf aquatic synthesist would indeed have arms, but she would not have the Limbs (Arms) evolution, and thus couldn't take any evolutions that's depended on Limbs (Arms) without first taking that evolution for yet another pair. She just has a pair of arms because half-elves have arms, and that's not an evolution.
Okay, I get it. That does make a bit of sense.
What about aspect and greater aspect? I guess you can't use those to qualify or improve on? Example, you take claws evolution, you couldn't considered having that evolution and get Improved Damage for when your fused? Initial thought, aspect evolutions are still evolutions so they probably could be used to qualify.
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Hi
Just thinking about a 4 armed (snake based) Synthesist build using Dervish Dance.
Dervish Dance just states that you must have off hand free, but what if you have more than 2 hands?
For instance, if I held Scimitars in both right hands, but kept my left hands free, would I still be able to use the feat? And would they count as my Primary attacks? (Presume my Bite & Tail Slaps count as Secondary attacks at -5 to hit).
Or would I be better off using 2 Elven Curved Blades (each 2H using Finesse).
Thanks
Paul H
Hi
Just thinking about a 4 armed (snake based) Synthesist build using Dervish Dance.
Dervish Dance just states that you must have off hand free, but what if you have more than 2 hands?
For instance, if I held Scimitars in both right hands, but kept my left hands free, would I still be able to use the feat? And would they count as my Primary attacks? (Presume my Bite & Tail Slaps count as Secondary attacks at -5 to hit).
Or would I be better off using 2 Elven Curved Blades (each 2H using Finesse).
Thanks
Paul H
This question is kindof outside the bounds of this thread, since it pretty much is a regular summoner question, but, I'll take a crack at it.
Since you're not using TWF, you could do it. Your attack progression with a 4 armed creature using 2 swords would basically take 1 sword and go through all of it's iteratives from BAB, then all secondary natural attacks and weapons held (once each).
Considering it's a lot easier to give big E big strength bonuses, it wouldn't be very optimized to focus on dex, but it would be useful in smaller locations where you can't haul around a large+ big E, and of course, the flavor and feel of it could still appeal to you.
Ultimately, weapons on big E are very under-efficient money wise, because a single amulet of mighty fists gives them a full array of magical weapons in their natural attacks. There's some great open design feats for big E to use a single enormous weapon that's just hilariously hard hitting, but that's all I see in an optimized build for weapon using big E's really. I'm sure others find the few extra attacks worth the money spent, but I just don't.
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Hi
Thanks for the quick reply.
I was just thinking of going few levels of Synthesist, then finishing as Rogue (better yet, Ninja) for all the sneak attack damage.
It's for the PFS campaign. With Dragonmeet in November, and Conception in January I should be able to make 5th lvl if I concentrate on this char.
Cheers
Paul H
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Hi
I'm looking into a Yaunti flavoured character.
I would have gone with one of the Rogue Archetypes that uses D8's on dagger sneak attacks, but I'd be hampered by the max attacks of the Eidolon I'm wearing, hence either Scimitars or the 2H Finesse weapon.
Thanks
Paul H
PS Where's the FAQ? Didn't know anything about NOT dual wielding?
Hi
I'm looking into a Yaunti flavoured character.
I would have gone with one of the Rogue Archetypes that uses D8's on dagger sneak attacks, but I'd be hampered by the max attacks of the Eidolon I'm wearing, hence either Scimitars or the 2H Finesse weapon.
Thanks
Paul H
PS Where's the FAQ? Didn't know anything about NOT dual wielding?
Bleh, hoped to catch this before new posts, looks like multi-weapon fighting considers all secondary weapon attacks coming from the off-hand, so the dervish wouldn't work if there's more than one weapon.
In regards to TWF problems, the FAQ they are currently working on states a synthesist can't swing with any combination of attacks exceeding their natural attack limit, regardless of natural or not. So stick to the regular summoner ideas until they amend it, if they ever do.
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Hi
Yep - was aware of the max attack thing, whis is why I was going for either a dex based 2H weapon, or weapon that grants bonuses with off-hand free.
I wasn't going to increase physical stats - that's what the Eidolon's for.
I was thinking Synthesist 5 (4 points 2 pairs arms/hands, 2 pts for +2 dex, 2 pts +2 Con).
2 x Scimitars +1 would be Attack +10, Dam D6+6. (Plus bite & tail slaps).
2 x Elven Curved Blades +1. Attack +10. Dam D10+4 (plus bite & tail slap).
That's 4 attacks at 5th lvl (Eidolons max 4 attacks 5th lvl).
All weapon threat 18-20, double damage on crit. Eidolon Ability increase into Con, (mine into Int).
Followed by few levels of Rogue, then see whether to keep going Rogue, or back into Synthesist.
Thanks
Paul H
PS Prob go with Curved Blades, and save the extra feat for Arcane Strike instead
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Hi
I'm looking into a Yaunti flavoured character.
I would have gone with one of the Rogue Archetypes that uses D8's on dagger sneak attacks, but I'd be hampered by the max attacks of the Eidolon I'm wearing, hence either Scimitars or the 2H Finesse weapon.
Thanks
Paul H
PS Where's the FAQ? Didn't know anything about NOT dual wielding?
I've been looking at a Yaunti flavored Synthesist / Blade Bound Magus using a scimitar + dervish.
My main focus will be iterative attacks from the scimitar (using shocking grasp) and finish out my allowed attack chain with natural attacks.
You could go one level of synthesist summoner to get a 2-handed black blade magus, since you'd have a free hand or two to cast your spells while weilding a greatsword black blade.
Of course, once your temp HP are gone, then you're unable to cast your spells with your blade in hand. But, for while it's up, you're nasty to deal with.
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I tried to find an answer but there is a lot of text in this thread. I was wondering if the question of which BAB a Ftr19/Synthesist1 has been answered? +20 or +1? Or is it +19 in normal form and then +1 when merged?It's 20.
Summoner: Does a synthesist (page 80) use his own Hit Dice or his eidolon's Hit Dice for evolutions based on Hit Dice, such as Breath Weapon and Web? What about his BAB for making attacks?
The synthesist uses the eidolon's Hit Dice for the effects of evolutions, not his summoner Hit Dice or his total Hit Dice.
When fused, use the eidolon's BAB instead of the summoner's class BAB, and add in BAB from other sources as normal. For example, a fighter 19/summoner 1 normally has a total BAB of +19 (+19 from fighter, +0 from summoner), and when fused with his eidolon this increases to +20 (+19 from fighter, +1 from the 1st-level eidolon).
—Sean K Reynolds, Tuesday
Sorry to add more to the questions already answered.So a summoner can make attacks from their own body? From your wooding, this means that they use their own physical attributes rather than the eidolon's? If not, does the eidolon need arms evolution to still use their manufactured weapons or natural attacks (if something like claws)? Or do synthesist eidolons get arms and hands for free if they are not bipedal?
They use the eidolon's physical attributes. That much is made abundantly clear in the text. You are simply allowed to use attacks with your own set of limbs as well as the new ones you get from evolutions.
A half-elf aquatic synthesist would indeed have arms, but she would not have the Limbs (Arms) evolution, and thus couldn't take any evolutions that's depended on Limbs (Arms) without first taking that evolution for yet another pair. She just has a pair of arms because half-elves have arms, and that's not an evolution.
Okay, I get it. That does make a bit of sense.
What about aspect and greater aspect? I guess you can't use those to qualify or improve on? Example, you take claws evolution, you couldn't considered having that evolution and get Improved Damage for when your fused? Initial thought, aspect evolutions are still evolutions so they probably could be used to qualify.
Any other opinions on this?
What about aspect and greater aspect? I guess you can't use those to qualify or improve on with your eidolon? Example, you take claws evolution with aspect or greater aspect, you couldn't considered having that evolution and get Improved Damage for when your fused? Initial thought, aspect evolutions are still evolutions so they probably could be used to qualify.
I am not sure about this, any opinions?
What about aspect and greater aspect? I guess you can't use those to qualify or improve on with your eidolon? Example, you take claws evolution with aspect or greater aspect, you couldn't considered having that evolution and get Improved Damage for when your fused? Initial thought, aspect evolutions are still evolutions so they probably could be used to qualify.
I am not sure about this, any opinions?
Thought the whole point of the Synthesist was the "most of my eggs are in one basket" approach since you wear the eidolon pretty much all day. What's the need to siphon off valuable evolution pool to the guy inside the monkey suit?
Thought the whole point of the Synthesist was the "most of my eggs are in one basket" approach since you wear the eidolon pretty much all day. What's the need to siphon off valuable evolution pool to the guy inside the monkey suit?What about aspect and greater aspect? I guess you can't use those to qualify or improve on with your eidolon? Example, you take claws evolution with aspect or greater aspect, you couldn't considered having that evolution and get Improved Damage for when your fused? Initial thought, aspect evolutions are still evolutions so they probably could be used to qualify.
I am not sure about this, any opinions?
That isn't exactly my point. It has been confirmed that while fused with your eidolon you still have access to the Aspect and Greater Aspect evolutions. Things like regeneration are no-dah thing to buy as soon as you can with the greater aspect class ability. Even if you have claws and improved damage claws on your hands with the aspect class ability you can use while your in your eidolon. The real question is if you have claws from the aspect, as they are technically an evolution, could you buy improved damage evolution for those claws from your aspect for when you are fused with your eidolon.
P.S. An even more interesting thought, if you buy Improved Damage: Claws, with Aspect, would it apply to your eidolon's claws while fused?
What about aspect and greater aspect? I guess you can't use those to qualify or improve on with your eidolon? Example, you take claws evolution with aspect or greater aspect, you couldn't considered having that evolution and get Improved Damage for when your fused? Initial thought, aspect evolutions are still evolutions so they probably could be used to qualify.
I am not sure about this, any opinions?
You can to an extent.
Evolutions on the eidolon which improve upon that *type* of attack will affect your aspect evolution.
This means that you could take tentacle via aspect, and the Improved Damage (Tentacle) you picked on your eidolon would affect your aspect tentacle too when fused.
However, you would not be able to use evolutions that modify a particular attack. For instance, you wouldn't be able to take grab (Tentacle) on your eidolon, because he's not the one with the tentacle. [He could take it on one of his tentacles if he had any, but it wouldn't affect your aspect tentacle].
Note that to take claws as an aspect you'd need to take limbs (arms) or limbs (legs) with aspect as well, so you have somewhere to put the claws. Your normal arms don't qualify, since they're not a limbs (arms) evolution. You can take a bite though, since it doesn't require the head evolution unless you want to take multiple bites.
P.S. An even more interesting thought, if you buy Improved Damage: Claws, with Aspect, would it apply to your eidolon's claws while fused?
Yes, but it wouldn't stack with another copy of itself.
The eidolon is not the one attacking, when you use Fused Eidolon. Rather, the synthesist gains all the evolutions, abilities, and physical scores of the eidolon. When fused, the Eidolon's claw attacks are the Synthesist's claw attacks, so the synthesist's Improved Damage evolution will apply.
For us, the wearing of armor is allowed. At max, its only a difference of like +4. (chain shirt)
Thus far, I'm not seeing this "stratosphere" AC that I'm suppose to have. In fact, last session my synthisist would have died if we didn't remember we had hero points via a hit with con poison. even with the shield, there was hardly any time to do anything.
Course it may just be because its me. If my character walks into a bar it will score a critical hit and do 100 points of damage vaporizing my character instantly.
For us, the wearing of armor is allowed. At max, its only a difference of like +4. (chain shirt)
Thus far, I'm not seeing this "stratosphere" AC that I'm suppose to have. In fact, last session my synthisist would have died if we didn't remember we had hero points via a hit with con poison. even with the shield, there was hardly any time to do anything.
Course it may just be because its me. If my character walks into a bar it will score a critical hit and do 100 points of damage vaporizing my character instantly.
Wearing a chain shirt is the same as having mage armor up, so your AC is just the same as the rest of the synthesists.
However, let's look at level 10 AC if you're allowed to wear armor, shall we?
Equipment: +1 ring of deflect [2k], +1 Ioun stone of Insight [5k], +2 mithral breastplate (~9k)
Feats: Medium Armor Prof
Since mith breast counts as light for all purposes but proficiency, you can still cast spells without ASF, and your speed is still unslowed.
Evolutions: Improved Natural Armor x3
Let's say you're a biped or an aquatic type, just so dex is lower.
DEX: 16 = +3
AC: 10 + 16 natural + 1 deflection + 1 insight + 8 armor + 3 DEX + 2 shield = 41 AC
A large eidolon would have 2 more natural armor, 1 less bonus from DEX, and a -1 size penalty, so the same AC. A quadruped would have 42 AC, and a serpentine would have 43 AC.
41 AC. That's spending one feat out of 5-6 on AC, 3 evolution points out of 14-16 on AC, and less than 16k gold on AC out of a WBL of 62,000 (~26% of wealth). That's not a whole lot of resources spent on AC.
So how high is 41 AC at level 10? According to the Monster Creation table, the average CR 11 creature should have a high attack roll of +19. AC of 41 means that after the synthesist Charges, such a creature will have to roll a 20 to hit, and then will have to roll another 20 to confirm their crit. That's a CR 11 creature vs. a level 10 synthesist.
What's even funnier is a synthesist can simply cast Barkskin for another +4 armor that lasts 1 hour 40 minutes.
Let's take a duelist as another example to see what an optimized AC is for another class.
We'll assume the duelist is Fighter7/Duelist 3, has DEX 24 and INT 16, and is a small character. A +2 belt and a +2 headband, we'll say. We'll say he's wearing Celestial Armor (22k by itself), a +3 ring of deflect, a +2 amulet of natural armor, and a +1 insight Ioun Stone. He's spending 61k on AC out of 62k.
He's taken dodge as a feat.
He has an AC of 10 + 1 size + 1 insight + 3 deflect + 2 natural + 9 armor + 10 dex + 1 dodge = 37 AC. That's just about the highest AC you'll be able to get at level 10 without going Synthesist, and that's spending a lot of resources to get there. He spent essentially all of his gold on AC, his ability scores are tailored for AC, he used class levels on something that's mostly good for AC, etc. If he has enough UMD to use a scroll of shield, he can tie the biped/aquatic synthesist for AC for minutes at a time. He still can't catch the quadruped.
Funnily enough, the Synthesist will tie this Duelist if he's NOT allowed to wear armor, and having spent only 7k on AC.
For us, the wearing of armor is allowed. At max, its only a difference of like +4. (chain shirt)
Thus far, I'm not seeing this "stratosphere" AC that I'm suppose to have. In fact, last session my synthisist would have died if we didn't remember we had hero points via a hit with con poison. even with the shield, there was hardly any time to do anything.
Course it may just be because its me. If my character walks into a bar it will score a critical hit and do 100 points of damage vaporizing my character instantly.
Wearing a chain shirt is the same as having mage armor up, so your AC is just the same as the rest of the synthesists.
However, let's look at level 10 AC if you're allowed to wear armor, shall we?
Equipment: +1 ring of deflect [2k], +1 Ioun stone of Insight [5k], +2 mithral breastplate (~9k)
Feats: Medium Armor Prof
Since mith breast counts as light for all purposes but proficiency, you can still cast spells without ASF, and your speed is still unslowed.
Evolutions: Improved Natural Armor x3
Let's say you're a biped or an aquatic type, just so dex is lower.
DEX: 16 = +3
AC: 10 + 16 natural + 1 deflection + 1 insight + 8 armor + 3 DEX + 2 shield = 41 AC
A large eidolon would have 2 more natural armor, 1 less bonus from DEX, and a -1 size penalty, so the same AC. A quadruped would have 42 AC, and a serpentine would have 43 AC.
41 AC.
Of course by level 10, you have 40 AC or you get your face beat in. No one cares about level 10. You have to survive to get there.
So how high is 41 AC at level 10?
The answer is: who cares. If you get hit at level 10, you will be taking at LEAST 30 damage a blow.
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Of course by level 10, you have 40 AC or you get your face beat in. No one cares about level 10. You have to survive to get there.
This is absolutely false. No one has 40 AC by level 10. 41 AC (what the biped synthesist had) means CR 12 enemies have to roll 20s to hit.
In any case the Synthesist's AC is stellar throughout the levels.
So how high is 41 AC at level 10?The answer is: who cares. If you get hit at level 10, you will be taking at LEAST 30 damage a blow.
That's an absolute non-sequitur. If you're taking 30 damage a blow, that means having high AC is important. High AC stops enemies from hitting at all.
This is absolutely false. No one has 40 AC by level 10.Of course by level 10, you have 40 AC or you get your face beat in. No one cares about level 10. You have to survive to get there.
Casters do. My normal human fighter had AC 30 by level 10.
That's an absolute non-sequitur. If you're taking 30 damage a blow, that means having high AC is important. High AC stops enemies from hitting at all.
Exactly what I said. The question isn't "how high is AC 40?"; the question is "How do I get AC 40 so the enemies don't kill me in two rounds."
What about aspect and greater aspect? I guess you can't use those to qualify or improve on with your eidolon? Example, you take claws evolution with aspect or greater aspect, you couldn't considered having that evolution and get Improved Damage for when your fused? Initial thought, aspect evolutions are still evolutions so they probably could be used to qualify.
I am not sure about this, any opinions?
You can to an extent.
Evolutions on the eidolon which improve upon that *type* of attack will affect your aspect evolution.
This means that you could take tentacle via aspect, and the Improved Damage (Tentacle) you picked on your eidolon would affect your aspect tentacle too when fused.
However, you would not be able to use evolutions that modify a particular attack. For instance, you wouldn't be able to take grab (Tentacle) on your eidolon, because he's not the one with the tentacle. [He could take it on one of his tentacles if he had any, but it wouldn't affect your aspect tentacle].
Note that to take claws as an aspect you'd need to take limbs (arms) or limbs (legs) with aspect as well, so you have somewhere to put the claws. Your normal arms don't qualify, since they're not a limbs (arms) evolution. You can take a bite though, since it doesn't require the head evolution unless you want to take multiple bites.
Oh snap! I did not think of that; very good point, minor setback.
This is absolutely false. No one has 40 AC by level 10.Casters do. My normal human fighter had AC 30 by level 10.
Casters have less AC than fighters. They get Mage Armor, the shield spell if they waste an action on it, DEX, and deflection ring/natural amulet.
Please, stat me up a caster who has 40AC at level 10. I'd love to see it.
That's an absolute non-sequitur. If you're taking 30 damage a blow, that means having high AC is important. High AC stops enemies from hitting at all.Exactly what I said. The question isn't "how high is AC 40?"; the question is "How do I get AC 40 so the enemies don't kill me in two rounds."
You don't need AC 40 to not get killed in 2 rounds. As you said, a fighter can get away with 30. I really hope you're not saying that fighters are incapable of handling combat. Enemies only hit him about half the time. A caster's main defense isn't AC, it's not being right next to the enemies and having the tanks absorb the blows.