Jason Bulmahn help! Dead shot and boring core mechanic

[Paradise]

I wrote this in respons to another threat but decided to post it here as well to increase the chances that its actually read.

The problem is clearest with the deed "dead shot" but goes beyond that. I however will argue based on dead shot.

Lets first take a look at the weapons. I will base the calculations on the musket but as such not an important choice (but you might want to use a weapon that enable you to fire every rund with rapid reload till you get lightning reload).

I make the asumptions that ranged touch attacks have a great chance of hitting and to ease the calculations asume that they simply hit.
That any roll of 19-20 will be a hit (possible crit) regardless of the attack bonus (which will very often be the case for the gunslinger even on the last attack).
And that you do what you can to be able to fire every round in terms of feat and ability picks.
I am ignoring any power issues below level 8 and in fact any discussions of such as I do not believe there are any problem and if there are I *believe* it to be much smaller and therefor much less important than the increasing problem at higher level.

Musket: damge d12 crit 20/X4
With feat: improved crit (musket)
chance of threat using dead shot:
Level chance
8 19 %
11 27.1 %
16 34.39 %

Confirming the crit is pretty much automatic (since its based on highest attack with dead shot). So its very likely that you will crit and your damage will increase in a nonelinear way as you gain level which does not go well with the change in power attack from 3.5 to the one used in pathfinder.

Lets take a look at the damage. With point blank shot and deadly aim it will be fairly high, even without any dex bonus. presuming that every shot fired is a hit (thats streatching it a bit but not that much) and that shots are fired within point blank range, damage will be something like:
Level damage avrg dmg. avrg dmg incl crit/round avrg crit
8 2d12+5 18 28.26 72
11 3d12+5 24.5 44.4185 98
16 4d12+5 31 62.9827 124
those numbers seem alright even, perhaps a bit low but they presume that the gunslinger have a dexterity score of 10 and that the gun is not enchanted, once you start adding those numbers the values goes way too high.
The damage increse pr 2 dex/+1enchant ment bonus:
Level increse in avrg damge incl crits pr round pr +1 damage gained
8 1,57
11 1.813
16 2.0317
So a gunslinger at level 16 with a dexterity score of 24 and a +3 gun will do an average of 83.2997 damage pr round with the conditions described above and this still leaves plenty of room for powerplaying if thats your thing.

The main damage of the gunslinger is from the crits which takes any excitement out of solo badguys and solo-ish badguys. the average crit even at level 8 will easily do an insane 72 damage and for our "average Joe" with dex 16 and a +1 gun the damage will be 88.

Even without taking the insanely powerful "signature deed (dead shot)" feat at level 11, the chance of getting your grit back from a crit is not bad and increases in a stupidly powerful way. The only good thing about dead shot is that it does not benefit from haste.

Taking a look at "average Joe" again at level 16 his dexterity has now increased to 22 and with a +3 gun he is doing a crit of around 160 damage with a 34.39 % chance. Which basicly can be boiled down to. If I fire at the main bad guy for 3 rounds I would have a 71 % chance of critting at least once and with that shot alone doing around 160 damage and in most cases end the encounter. Thats pretty boring.

As much as the problem might seem to be dead shot (and it is a problem because of the highly increased chance of a crit) the real problem is the weapons which never should have been touch attacks with a X4 crit because they take the excitement out of the game and the combination is just begging for abuse even if not intended.

The weakness of all of this is of cause the presumed automatic hit but in most cases touch attacks with a high base attack class and a weapon + whatever buff your group uses will make such attacks easy hits, even the last one). I am however convinced that even when taking misses into the calculation this class will still have a huge damage "problem".

A shortsighted fix might be to change "dead shot" deed so that any attacks using the deed are resolved normally and not with touch attacks regardless of weapon and range. I am however convinced that low average damage and high spike crits and touch attacks are a bad combination which is the mechanic of the class. Jason Bulmahn didnt do a bad job at all. The class have many exciting features and new idears. The rules for how guns work just aint well suited to build a class on. If I were designing the class I would change the gun and make an errata on the stats of it and not accept the rules for how guns work. I think its a bad move to base the class around a weapon that was given stats some years back without the intend of the weapon being the backbone of a class.

['Rixx]

Calling out the designers specifically is generally bad form.

Also, read the playtest document; Jason didn't design this class.

[Dire Mongoose]

I don't think I'm dyslexic, but I initially read the title of this thread as "Jason Bulmahn shot dead!" and was momentarily horrified.

[Paradise]

'Rixx wrote:

Calling out the designers specifically is generally bad form.

Also, read the playtest document; Jason didn't design this class.

Accodring to:

Ultimate combat
playtest
Round 2: Gunslinger

The *lead designer* is Jason Bulmahn.

As for it being bad form to write the name of the lead designer in the topic name. We can agree to disagree.

[Benchak the Nightstalker]

Paradise wrote:

'Rixx wrote:

Calling out the designers specifically is generally bad form.

Also, read the playtest document; Jason didn't design this class.

Accodring to:

Ultimate combat
playtest
Round 2: Gunslinger

The *lead designer* is Jason Bulmahn.

As for it being bad form to write the name of the lead designer in the topic name. We can agree to disagree.

Bad form or not, it's not a great way to get an answer from a designer. If Jason answers your "Jason Bulmahn Help!" thread today, then tomorrow there'll be a dozen new "Jason Bulmahn Help!" threads, and by the end of the week he'll be too busy answering "Jason Bulmahn Help!" threads he won't have any time left to, you know, lead design.

That's why, while they do occasionally pop in on rules or advice threads, the Paizo folks generally avoid responding to "Developer response needed!" threads.

[VM mercenario]

I give up. Can anyone explain what the OP is trying to say?

[Maxximilius]

You already posted this in another thread without even looking at my answer apparently, so I'll say it again :

- Gunslinger beta : Not the final version.
- Guns : The mechanics, and especially the touch attack thing, will NOT change.

[Paradise]

Maxximilius wrote:

You already posted this in another thread without even looking at my answer apparently, so I'll say it again :

- Gunslinger beta : Not the final version.
- Guns : The mechanics, and especially the touch attack thing, will NOT change.

I did read the other thread you are referring to (I think) and I am sorry if I have misunderstood something or offended in any way that was never what I wanted to do. I would never go into a discussion of balance issues on a forum like this, if it was the final version. I would simply change the class or ban it depending on how easy changing it was(in case I were a GM and accept my GM's decision as a player).

What I am trying to say is that this class is based on:
-Low average damage
-High crits
-Touch attacks(little excitement on hit or miss, basicly high predictability)
-Gain grit from crits (and other)
Whenver thats boring to not. Thats a personal perferance.

I am not concerned about the some of the deeds lacking a save and other such relatively minor changes. These are basicly easy fixes and the exact formula of such has been worked on for a long time.

What I am concerned about is "dead shot" because:
-The gunslinger do not gain increased number of attacks based on base attack but do get something like it using "dead shot" deed.
Problem as far as I see it: Mechanic of this ability stack too well with increased crit chance in combination with all of the core 4 elements of the class (even when not taking the feat "signature deed" into consideration).

Dead shot is important because its the ability, as far as I understand the class, that is supposed to emulate increased number of attacks normally seen with base attack based class. I might be wrong and the total DPR in average might be the same as for an archer type pr increase in damage (if the archer gets a +1 bow his damage increase but X1 and if the gunslinger gets a +1 gun his damage increase by X2) but as far as I see it the increase in X2 will with increased levels go higher than X1 when using dead shot.

Dead shot realy is a simple and in many ways well made deed. If I am right about the stacking problem then as long as *dead shot* accepts all of the 4 core abilities as valid at the same time there is a problem. I think the touch attack to a high degree is the main problem with dead shot or the X4 crit but thats changing the weapon only for the terms of using this deed and not very smooth.

I am aware of the drawback of guns blowing up being real and to some degree a compensation for balance issues. Basicly its a very good class when you roll high on the dice and its a very bad class when you roll low. I dont however agree that its a good solution because in such long and devoted games that you often get in the wonderful world of Golarion balancing power around extreme benefits and drawbacks will often create imbalance and dissatisfaction in the group in the long run. I am aware that my judgement here might be influenced by personal perferance.

The gunslinger might be better than the archer at low range and worse at high range and then everything seem fine and balanced but most fights tend towards being low range fights to my experience which will slightly benefit the gunslinger over the archer. I dont think that "far-reaching sight" will caue problems as its mostly useful at low level and at those levels the price might be discouraging.

On another but related matter I think that the signature deed feat is imblanaced because in its current form you can take a deed, make it free and regain grit while using that deed. The crit chance with dead shot will make regaining grit very probable as the gunslinger gain levels by using signature deed on dead shot you can use it at will and at around L16 regain 1 grit very 3 rounds of combat-ish. This might be working as intended but it seems to me to be part of the problem with the class being based on high benefit form crits, highly increased crit chance with dead shot combined with base attack and regaining grit with crits.

If this has already been addressed in another threat I am sorry but but I have tried to search the forum on several occasions for such information and have been unable to find it. I still think that the gunslinger deed/grit system is innovative and that the class have much to offer but that the weapon with its current stats and mechanic is a core problem.

[Mnemaxa]

In my experience as a GM for some 20 odd years, using critical hits in an example of average damage is night unto pointless for the sole reason that they're so damn rare with anything other than the high crit range weapons (scimitar, rapier, kukri). Certianly, the massive damage available to a gun with a single crit is high, but even with dead shot, the chances of actually rolling the crit is not incredibly high. Probability math is a wonderful tool, but in reality the 'chances of rolling multiple 20s'is reset to 1 in 20 (or a crit as 2 in 20 at 8th level) each time you pick up the die.

[Godwyn]

So the problem is that a gunslinger is doing 83 damage a round at level 16 at close range?

From the Summer DPS Olympics, good average damage for level 10 characters is sitting at around 70+ with leaders going higher than that.

As for the high payoff/high risk, its a style some people like.

Unless I am missing something from the original post?

[Paradise]

Godwyn wrote:

So the problem is that a gunslinger is doing 83 damage a round at level 16 at close range?

From the Summer DPS Olympics, good average damage for level 10 characters is sitting at around 70+ with leaders going higher than that.

As for the high payoff/high risk, its a style some people like.

Unless I am missing something from the original post?

Two thinks. First the statement given in another threat that gunslinger is supposed to be better at short range than other ranged types and worse at higher range. Imo fights tend to favor short range so fights tend to favor the gunslinger.

Second the way dead shot work. Basicly the critical hit chance increase in a "wierd" way, compared to any other clss because of a combination of the way the weapon work and the way dead shot is working. Since dead shot is based on base attack the problem changes with level and as stated might not exist at lower levels (not to be confused with the more specific definition of low level, medium level and high level used in d20).

Dead shot allow you to:
Increase the base damage of your one shot based on base attack.
Increase your chance of critting with the *entire shot* based on base attack.

Weapon stats:
Touch attack
High crit damage.

Class feature:
Regain grit on a crit.

This combination will make it very likely that every shot fired is a hit and even more likely that every shot in the 19-20 range (improved crit) will hit and creating the chance of a crit on the entire shot.

If you calculate on the presumption that any roll of 19-20 will indeed crit (touch attack + since you confirm using highest attack bonus with dead shot its fairly likely) you have at L16 (4 attacks, with 10% chance of a crit, chance of at least 1 succes in 4) 34.39% chance of critting with the entire shot every round. Can be roughly compared to the gunslinger critting on a roll 14+ (d20 attack roll) at level 16 if using dead shot and dead shot was resolved with only 1 roll. (for the purpose of crit chance only, as some of the extra "attacks" are significantly more likely to miss even with the touch attacks).

The crit is highly rewarded by the mechanic because:
High crit multiplyer (connected to low average damage).
Regain Grit).

Also the feat signature deed is insanely good with almost any deed but in combination with dead shot you can regain grit very easily since your crit chance is stupidly high. (perhaps you should not be allowed to regain grit with a deeed when applying the feat?)

I think when combined this is not balanced. I am not pointing my fingers at any one thing and saying "Thats the problem" (well perhaps the gun mechanics but thats more than one thing: weapon base damage, crit chance, crit multiplyer and touch attack)

One of the problems with the link you gave is that it is for a specific level while I am pointing out a problem more fluid than that. That the porblem I am talking about wont be there at low level and for a gunslinger 10th level "might" be low level since the problem is with the scaling of the crit chance based on base attack.

Also the damage is based on a target AC of 24 (at level 10). This might or might not be fair. This might even be true in average but the touch attack mechanic pretty much makes comparison to most classes kinda wierd. Since the AC for the gunslinger in most cases wont be the same as for the other "warrior" based classes (AC 12 touch stated in the threat).

The gunslinger will suffer a bit in damage compared to the other classes when the AC drops, since the gunslinger pretty much just hit in most cases. The damage of the gunslinger will however not change much (in most cases) even if the AC goes pretty high as it is not as common for a monster to have a very high touch AC as a high AC.

If you do not bother reading all of it. Yes:
Maxximilius :
- Touch AC attacks is a non-issue. Gunslinger's DPR is comparable to a fighter archer, lower at long range, and better at low range against high-AC ennemies. The only real problem comes from boredom, when you are pretty sure to hit with any attack if you don't fall on a natural 1, but guns tend to also break on a higher natural roll, like 2-3. And fluffwise, it's not because you take on a bullet on your armor (hint : not made to stop bullets) that you feel nothing. Or even simpler : why do you believe the bullets can't pierce ? It's pathfinder guns, and they can deal high damage only with a leveled Gunslinger. It's like saying Fireball shouldn't exist because in pathfinder, wizards deal 1d6/level with them in a 20' square while a fighter can only throw a 1d6 alchemist's fire.

Is an Issue because fights tend to be lower range and even if they aint, there tend to be lots of ways to make it a lower range fight so the gunslinger will be better in more situations (and in any situation where this aint true the sword specialized (or some other melee weapon) warrior type will be crying a lot more than the gunslinger.

Second yes, the crit chance with the "Dead shot" deed is working too well with abilities that increase crit chance and grant extra attacks. So even if you find that there is no problem at level, lets say 10, the difference in ability will steadely increase as you move into the higher levels.

[theneofish]

Dire Mongoose wrote:

I don't think I'm dyslexic, but I initially read the title of this thread as "Jason Bulmahn shot dead!" and was momentarily horrified.

So did I; except I read it as 'Jason Bulmahn shot dead and boring' which is not only tragic but seemed to imply something that could both assassinate and character assassinate at the same time. I thought, wow, these Paizo guys are really coming up with some imaginative weapons.