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I'm starting this based on another thread that discusses what makes high-level play challenging. I think that is great, but it means I have to infer a solution to the implied problem. I’m lazy.
The highest my group has ever reached organically was level 12, and we didn’t last long there. I have a standing DNR (Do Not Raise) order on the PC’s I play, so death is kind of a big deal. I also make it painful for PC’s I run for to get raised (especially since none of them has the power required to do it themselves yet). Now that I am running a game that is just hitting 8th level, I am starting to work on plot for a higher-level group.
What are some good stories for high-level PC’s?
-I think for myself, in regards to any ‘save the person’ plots, I am going to make it known that the person in question is someone who has made it clear that they will refuse resurrection (wanting to be with their deity or something like that) and that the reason you need them alive is that someone wants something from them that they can’t achieve if they are dead. Thoughts?
How can they be done in a way that is both fun and not overly taxing for the GM?
-I am going to lean heavily on Paizo material here. There are many books that provide NPC’s fully stat’ed out, right out of the book, and I think using them will help, but I also want to focus as much as possible on the big monsters in the Bestiaries, especially the kind that don’t have a ton of (or any) treasure. Everyone likes demons and devils right?
How would you address your high-level casters’ abilities to do incredible things, without taking the fun out of the game for them?
-This one I think will be a little harder to hand-wave, but I was going to try requiring them to use as many long-effect spells as I could to get to the encounters. I have a mystic theurge in my group and I routinely have him provide ‘comfort’ spells to the party (endure elements, etc) that allows him to be useful, and reduces his in-combat arsenal. I don’t think that will be enough at higher levels though… so I’m looking for some other suggestions so that I don’t have to think of them on my own.
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My instinct at that level is to begin alternating real combat challenges (either with huge monsters or hordes of nasty things- or both!) with roleplay challenges: moral conundrums, political intruige, moral dilemmas, and romances.
Given the suite of abilities a high level party has, these roleplay challenges might not necessarily be difficult to overcome in terms of taxing their resources, however, they should (hopefully) require a little bit of lateral thinking and challenge the players more than their characters. What do they do when the twelve-year-old son of a vanquished enemy shows up, feebly plotting revenge and retribution when he presents zero actual threat to the PCs? Do they kill him? Imprison him? Try to reform him or turn him to their side?
If the PCs aren't settling down and founding a kingdom or a dynasty or something by then, they probably should - otherwise established authority will start to get nervous of them. A bunch of super-powered free agents running around can lead to political chaos, and the PCs might be forced to have to face off against an army all by themselves unless they can raise and logistically support a force of their own.
Also, great heroes are going to be approached constantly by people who want things from them. After the fiftieth time they get petitioned by a small village that wants them to slay a single Troll or root out a nest of Ankhegs, they'll probably realize that they need to come up with some suitable ambitions for themselves, or at least find a way to insulate themselves from such requests.
The important thing is that these kinds of RP challenges, regardless of difficulty, should have consequences for the PCs reputations and relationships. Treat them like celebrities.
How difficult your job is as a DM really depends on how imaginative and devious your players are, but there is a silver lining: when you do run a combat, don't be afraid to crank the danger up to 11. The PCs are grown-ups now. They can take it. Don't worry too much about killing them: if they die, they can always come back, right? Planning on a fight vs. a particularly powerful dragon? Make it two. Make it three! Demon Lord? He's got a brother. Band of angry Storm Giants? They've got a Linnorm along for the ride. Basically, the gloves are off, and anything goes.
The combats will be very involved and take a long time, possibly multiple sessions, which is why you need to do the roleplay challenges in between. That will also make the combats feel suitably epic.
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I GMed a campaign up to 40.
Involved a planar invasion by baaatezu, a plot to kill asmodeus (plot known only by the exiled Geryon), a revolution in heavens, an announced end of the world, the awakeing of the first dragons, retrieving artifact cried from a dying god, the reunion of the two evil halves of an ascended mortal who became 2 gods (1 evil 1 good), make Yggdrasil burn, see the fall of the gods.
Players in the meanwhile built empires, claimed thrones, plotted and counter plotted vs archenemies like archfiends, ancient liches, evil cults, devil-corrpted church, enemy empires.
They built castles, flying ships, created demiplanes, trained armies, raised races. Created epic spells making the sky fall. Became generals, kings, head of churces and arcane schools. Befriended gods, ancient spirits and fey. Fought abominations.
Created alliances with the other half of the multiverse they were not at war with. Discovered the secrets of the multiverse. Traveled back in time. Killed demigods. Gathered followers in the number of thousands.
Dungeons, rare, were immense, multi dimensional. Gamebreaking magic didn't ruined them. Gamebreaking magic was NEEDED.
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The highest my group has ever reached organically was level 12, and we didn’t last long there. I have a standing DNR (Do Not Raise) order on the PC’s I play, so death is kind of a big deal. I also make it painful for PC’s I run for to get raised (especially since none of them has the power required to do it themselves yet). Now that I am running a game that is just hitting 8th level, I am starting to work on plot for a higher-level group.
Think about this policy long and hard as you get into high levels. Die roll results are astronomical and there are a few insta-death or near effects that sometimes, no matter how well the party plays, someone may snuff it unexpectedly.
And there is a HUGE difference between rolling up a new 1st or 2nd level character, and rolling up a brand new 12th level character (versus the one you've been playing for a long long time). Part of the issue is that a character who levels naturally from level 1 to 12 versus one straight up built at level 12 is going to look different, with one having evolved organically based on the needs of the individual campaign, and the latter looking more "optimally" built based on what works at that level only, not what came before. Neither is WRONG but it can effect how the PCs work.
I am NOT saying, "Don't do it." You want a Death Is Real policy, great, just think about how you are going to handle things if and possibly when someone dies and you do want to make it difficult to raise PCs. Write up ahead of time some possible consequences and routes the players can take that make things challenging but interesting, not merely frustrating, just because someone rolled a 1 versus a destruction spell.
What are some good stories for high-level PC’s?
I ran a VERY high level game (started at 14 in 3.5 and when they hit 16 we switched to Pathfinder, ended at level 19). My favorite was the second arc we used, which was where they essentially had to get involved in a civil war to make sure the most decent faction won. As characters get higher level you can deal with more global (and even planar) issues.
-I think for myself, in regards to any ‘save the person’ plots, I am going to make it known that the person in question is someone who has made it clear that they will refuse resurrection (wanting to be with their deity or something like that) and that the reason you need them alive is that someone wants something from them that they can’t achieve if they are dead. Thoughts?
For a rescue story---as far as not letting them die, you could say there's a curse laid on them that if they perish, X blight crosses the land. Or that if their blood is spilled, the great pit fiend Bob is summoned. Rather than banning resurrection, find ways to make death undesirable in the first place.
The bigger issue for "rescue the person" plots at high levels is you are going possibly to have characters who can teleport and do all kinds of tricks to get themselves to where they need to be--and if the party is very clever, they may see the way to rescue the person lickety split, and you may lose half your adventure.
There are two ways to deal with this. One is to ban certain modes of transport--Damsel is locked away in a forbiddanced area. Done right, it can be a good challenge, and still other cool tricks can be used to rescue the person. But it is NOT a trick you want to use all the time--should be an occasional challenge, not a constant obstacle.
The other way is to accept the fact that PCs are going to find short cuts at high level and let them--just come up with other puzzles and challenges along the way so that things don't stop short. Be prepared to wing it, and don't let yourself say "no" if it's a perfectly reasonable solution just because you didn't come up with it.
How can they be done in a way that is both fun and not overly taxing for the GM?
Outline general areas and interconected plotlines, but don't bother plotting everything out linearly, because the higher level PCs get, the more non-linear ways they will find to deal with a situation.
-I am going to lean heavily on Paizo material here. There are many books that provide NPC’s fully stat’ed out, right out of the book, and I think using them will help, but I also want to focus as much as possible on the big monsters in the Bestiaries, especially the kind that don’t have a ton of (or any) treasure. Everyone likes demons and devils right?
Demons and devils are awesome and I relied on them a lot in my own high level game both because they suited the flavor of my plotline and because frankly, most high CR creatures are outsiders.
That said: they CAN get old (she says from experience). And certain outsider abilities become annoying speedbumps and time wasters rather than real challenges after awhile (she glares scathingly at DR and SR--which high level players will come to eventually beat pretty easily). And once characters hit a certain level, banishment and similar spells can make evil outsiders less of a challenge.
One tip: use lots of lower-CR monsters than, say, one high CR monster. For example, if the party is EL 12, attack them with four CR 8 creatures, not 1 CR 12 monster. Group tactics can be more effective, and there are more lower CR monsters than higher CR ones to choose from.
Also, make encounters more challenging using terrain and the like--rather than boost just the strength of the monsters, boost what resources they have available to them.
How would you address your high-level casters’ abilities to do incredible things, without taking the fun out of the game for them?
For the most part, let them do incredible things, adapt, and move on. If they can solve the problem by casting plane shift, then they cast plane shift--and then make up a cool encounter for them on the Astral Plane from there.
YOU as a GM need to be ready to go with the flow, which is very much easier said than done--but once you adapt, it makes it a lot less of a burden on you. Sandbox style adventures are easier at high level play because then the players--who are already capable of forging their own plot with their abilities--CAN just forge their own path and you just need to refer to your notes to respond to their actions. Outline general challenges, plotlines, and major NPCs, then fill it in as you go along.
When magic DOES get to be an issue, remember for every spell there is a counterspell, for magic there is dispel magic, for teleport there is forbiddance, etc. etc. etc. Think of other possible obstacles as well--once I didn't want the party to teleport directly to a destination for pacing reasons--at least not without consequence. But I remembered the country they were in were very paranoid about unauthorized magic use. I decided it was very reasonable and within the nation's capabilities that they'd set up a warding system that would inform their mage corps whenever someone used "unauthorized" teleportation magic. The party could try to teleport illegally (and I was fine and ready if they did that), obtain permission, or travel overland the old fashioned way (they did the latter, to avoid both detection from the authorities and their enemies, which was probably wise). I wouldn't necessarily use that trick a lot, but it was useful at the time.
Remember that for all the amazing resources the players have, you are the GM, and you have EVERY resource. Don't constantly gimp one ability using the same tactic over and over again, but if a player is overusing a trick, then it's time to challenge the player by creating an obstacle and forcing him/her to come up with a new trick.
Another thing with magic and high levels is planar travel--GMG notes how planar travel can affect how magic works. Wild magic is another option.
But in the end: remember the heroes are becoming legendary and they should allow them to be legendary--that in my opinion is a large part of running a high level game. You want to challenge them, yes, but that should come as much out of story as anything else. Things that can't be easily fixed by a spell or feat are things like politics, philosophy, faction wars, romance---and these can help provided a good level of complexity that can't just be simply fireballed (or if they are, they will have fascinating consequences :) ).
Good luck!
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I GMed a campaign up to 40.
Involved a planar invasion by baaatezu, a plot to kill asmodeus (plot known only by the exiled Geryon), a revolution in heavens, an announced end of the world, the awakeing of the first dragons, retrieving artifact cried from a dying god, the reunion of the two evil halves of an ascended mortal who became 2 gods (1 evil 1 good), make Yggdrasil burn, see the fall of the gods.
Players in the meanwhile built empires, claimed thrones, plotted and counter plotted vs archenemies like archfiends, ancient liches, evil cults, devil-corrpted church, enemy empires.
They built castles, flying ships, created demiplanes, trained armies, raised races. Created epic spells making the sky fall. Became generals, kings, head of churces and arcane schools. Befriended gods, ancient spirits and fey. Fought abominations.
Created alliances with the other half of the multiverse they were not at war with. Discovered the secrets of the multiverse. Traveled back in time. Killed demigods. Gathered followers in the number of thousands.
Dungeons, rare, were immense, multi dimensional. Gamebreaking magic didn't ruined them. Gamebreaking magic was NEEDED.
Nice!
Nice!
It was a convoluted way to say: change your perspective!
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My Pathfinder RPG group just reached 11th-12th level.
Things are really starting to get volatile for all the aforementioned reasons.
I take the attitude of "as a GM I also get to play" and am open for surprises. Games get less structure, but more preparation.
For example, I'll spend time reviewing the spell lists and spell effects for the Glabrezu, and I'll spend time making up names for all the other Barons in the feudal kingdom, on the chance those NPCs are called for/needed.
This seems to be a dynamic shift from more structured adventures between levels 3-10.
I also think in terms of less overall battles, but higher stake battles. The length of battle, and the complexity of the ruleset tends to mean more mechanical attention to more elaborate spells, feats, and other rarities that we don't see often, albeit we're generally familiar with from years of play.
The "perspective shift" that Kaiyanwang mentions is essential. I recently had a talk with the group, and asked if they wanted to go for the high level game - actually taking the characters through L20. I let them know it would involve even more role play than ever, and far more initiative on their parts. They seemed up for the challenge. But I'm adding here, that that type of talk is a healthy one to have to help them make the shift to high level play.
Now, some will say that high level play is the same as other levels - and depending on the context, they're right. The gates of firestorm peak, or whichever L17 module is written, and ostensibly plays like all others - but that context is a specific location with specific dungeons to traverse.
In the context of a homebrew campaign, "letting the inmates run the assylum" would be my way of saying - create story threads relevant to high level play ambitions... i.e. the player who becomes the baron, the player who owns a castle, the player who unities a kingdom, etc.
There's a lot of good stuff written by Ed Greenwood on this, and also fantastic stuff by Gary Gygax as well.
In a truly modern sense... it would seem tactically you could:
>Make battles less frequent but more epic
>Make story themes that sync with player's individual ambitions
>Enter major politics, war, court intrigue, other planes, and the like
>Not worry about powerful spells, but rather continue to focus on the players as powerful people, yet provide very specific challenges tailored to your group
.. just some thoughts.
Have a "big picture" view of the plot without filling in too much detail. Don't plan too much more than you need to, as it'll probably be changing underneath you anyways.
Do have a plot however, and a rationale for them to be doing whatever they're doing. They'll be a lot less likely to go "off the reservation" if they have a specific purpose.
At under-20 levels, you're not yet in the realm where you've got to make your own creatures. This is helpful, because it's WAY easier to use something out of the book than make it yourself.
There was a great series of articles I read on designing worlds. One thing that always stuck with me was this: every place should have a secret.
So, they go off track and stop in a small town that you have nothing but a name for? Fine, treat it as generic small town X ... except that they mayor's daughter is a vampire and he's trying to hide it. Or there's an ancient giant burial ground in the hills north of town and it's taboo to the townsfolk. Or the townsfolk are actually staunch followers of Dagon and are just waiting for the PCs to leave so they can get on with that night's sacrifice.
Even if they don't discover whatever it is that game, it makes it all the easier to drop hints and clues later and you can wait for the light bulb moment when they realized they missed something. I love those.
Even if they don't discover whatever it is that game, it makes it all the easier to drop hints and clues later and you can wait for the light bulb moment when they realized they missed something. I love those.
I hope I'm not the only DM here who does this, or this will be an embarrassing confession... but I do the "every town has a secret" thing too, and quite often my players will tie my "secrets" into the overarching plot for me.
Players: "The mayor's daughter is a vampire? Clearly she's an agent of the lich king! This town must conceal one of the hexagrammic seals which bind the gate to where his phylactery is stored!"
Me: "Yes.... excellent deduction..." (steeple fingers like Mr. Burns)
There is a game called Delta Green which is a great resource for plot-starter secrets... I can't find a list of Delta Green conspiracies at the moment (DG conspiracy: you can only find lists of DG conspiracies when you don't need them because TCP/IP is actually executed by superconducting Martian brains that feel that horror-roleplaying games trivialize the very real threat of the Great Old Ones!). Hopefully someone else has one handy?
Players: "The mayor's daughter is a vampire? Clearly she's an agent of the lich king! This town must conceal one of the hexagrammic seals which bind the gate to where his phylactery is stored!"
Me: "Yes.... excellent deduction..." (steeple fingers like Mr. Burns
Great example. Even at lower levels, the eventual campaign I am planning on running someday will be mostly me putting the pieces in place, and letting the players connect the dots with their actions with just enough plot to get them started and on a more or less consistent path until I can see what develops and develop a deeper plot from the developments.
Don't take this the wrong way, but from what you posted I do not think you will enjoy higher level using your current play style for a few reasons.
1. The dead is dead theme really does not work well at high level. Part of being a high level character in PFRPG and before that in D&D is that having massive damage done to the party is at best a round or two set back. A death is going to take a few minutes to recover from.
2. Having a party use resources over and over to be able to be warm, find food and water, and tell what direction is north are not high level challenges. For a few hundred gold pieces they should be able to buy or make a magic item that takes care of that for them forever. They are many ways to challenge higher level players and the fact that they can cast many low level spells is not really going to be the main roadblocks for you as a DM. Those just allow the player some casual ability to throw out damage, buff, heal, etc between when they need to throw out the big spells.
3. Having a really large single creature as the BBEG is never a good idea at higher level. One bad save or one lucky crit or two with a full attacking PC such as a paladin or charging cavalier is going to pretty much one shot the monster. working against evil organizations and groups of monsters will give more of a challenge to the players.
The best way to play high level is to start at level one and advance organically where all the players and DM develop the game with an even flow. Use an AP or published module to cover most of the heavy lifting and keep the focus not just on combat but on the RP aspects of the game as well. Try and come up with some mis-direction and plot twists to keep the players guessing on where the campaign is going.
(Something along the lines of the X-Files is a good example of this. There were lots of secret groups and bad guys plus the occasional one of monster or mystery. Plenty there to keep a party busy and having fun even if they solve one mystery or defeat one bad guy in the chain they uncover a little bit more.)
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I GMed a campaign up to 40.
Involved a planar invasion by baaatezu, a plot to kill asmodeus (plot known only by the exiled Geryon), a revolution in heavens, an announced end of the world, the awakeing of the first dragons, retrieving artifact cried from a dying god, the reunion of the two evil halves of an ascended mortal who became 2 gods (1 evil 1 good), make Yggdrasil burn, see the fall of the gods.
Players in the meanwhile built empires, claimed thrones, plotted and counter plotted vs archenemies like archfiends, ancient liches, evil cults, devil-corrpted church, enemy empires.
They built castles, flying ships, created demiplanes, trained armies, raised races. Created epic spells making the sky fall. Became generals, kings, head of churces and arcane schools. Befriended gods, ancient spirits and fey. Fought abominations.
Created alliances with the other half of the multiverse they were not at war with. Discovered the secrets of the multiverse. Traveled back in time. Killed demigods. Gathered followers in the number of thousands.
Dungeons, rare, were immense, multi dimensional. Gamebreaking magic didn't ruined them. Gamebreaking magic was NEEDED.
Outstanding... wish i could of played in that game... I have DM a game into the 40's as well but mine was based on Forgotten Realms Water Deep - Avatar trilogy books series i read years ago. It become very interesting encounters. One would think battle would be longer but in BBEG vs Epic group a lot one shot kills happened. Not to mention the Epic book for D and D is crazy as some of the creatures CR's VS PC were either under powered or way over powered.
I play with a group that usually maxes out at level 12 or below. recently we have been going higher levels but i see the "strain" on the DM and try to take it easy on him... as i know his pain... lol