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Hello once again Paizoins Master Endo here with a most troubling question. In my pursuit to make a Monk build for another Thread (You know which one) I have come to the conclusion that Bracers of Armor are Dull and limited in what they can do for no particular reason. Then it came to Me, Why can't one just purchase a Set of Robes or Shirt, or Existing attire and simply have it enchanted with armor properties?
And if this is possible why even put the restriction on Bracers of armor to not be able to have flat gold bonuses added to them?
Thanks for the Replies, I will be looking forward to them
Robes and shirts do not occupy the armor slot and are not listed on the armor list. Therefore, they are not available for armor enchantments.
If you want to enchant non-armor with armor properties, use the Wondrous Item rules to figure out how much your Sneaky Shirt or Robe of Energy Resistance will cost. There's a table for this.
In my campaign, I might allow you to add a base +0 AC, no ACP, no max Dex bonus "clothes" armor to the game for enchantment purposes. But it would be light armor, and wearing it would have the same negative effects as wearing light armor.
The Magic Vestment spell states that regular clothing counts as armor with no AC bonus, so the precedent for magic clothing is there. Though I'm not sure if it's technically rules legal to enchant clothing with permanent enchantments. One advantage that Bracers of Armor have is that (as far as I know) they function like Mage Armor, and thus apply to incorporeal attacks. Also, Bracers of Armor go up to a +8 armor bonus, while the best you could get out of a magic shirt is +5 (with another +5 worth of properties). Following the price scale, Bracers of Armor +8 cost the same as a +8 shirt would, if armor bonuses were allowed to go higher than +5. Overall, they run the same price as an equivalent armor enhancement on clothing would cost.
I do not see a particular reason not to allow it, but they could not be enhanced over +5 enhancement, unlike bracers of armor, also bracers are essentially a force effect so they do have some benefits over enchanted clothing.
Magic Vestment pretty much sets a precedent for clothing to be enchanted as armor, I imagine there is no real reason to disallow other armor enhancements
EDIT : Ninja'd lol
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Robes and shirts do not occupy the armor slot and are not listed on the armor list. Therefore, they are not available for armor enchantments.
Bracers of Armor do not occupy the armor slot either but do give an armor bonus. As such, I do not see why other articles of clothing should not be able to function in the same manner.
I do agree they should be a base AC +0, no ACP and no max Dex, but I would not require a light armor proficiency. They are clothes, after all.
As to the flat GP restriction, it is most likely tied to the bonus limitation of the bracers. If a set of bracers can only have a bonus modifier of +1 to +8, how does +33750gp work into that calculation?
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I do not see a particular reason not to allow it, but they could not be enhanced over +5 enhancement, unlike bracers of armor, also bracers are essentially a force effect so they do have some benefits over enchanted clothing.
I think you could still give enchanted clothes a modifier up to +8 if they followed the same mechanic as the bracers. If you required Magic Vestment in the construction though, then yes, +5 would be you max.
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@ Avalon: I can see your point though they are probably not listed due to not be Effective armor rather than an exclusion for balance, but Why make the Shirt suddenly become light armor? The only thing that screws over is the Monk who suddenly cannot wear shirts, while a Wiz/Sorc can cast in it all day (As Im sure Shirts/Robes dont have ASF)
@Sunset: Right the precedent is there, Clothing has been mentioned for spells many at time. The Main benefit lost here is that Bracers cannot be enchanted with flat cost abilities, While other armor can. That is a HUGE difference in ability there, even if the Bracers are +3 higher, Someone can just get Ghost Touch and 4 other enchantments as well
Since robes of the archmagi already give an armor bonus to AC, I see no reason that a shirt couldn't give it to you either, as there is already precedent for it. Those robes even give SR (another armor quality).
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Robes and shirts do not occupy the armor slot and are not listed on the armor list. Therefore, they are not available for armor enchantments.Bracers of Armor do not occupy the armor slot either but do give an armor bonus. As such, I do not see why other articles of clothing should not be able to function in the same manner.
I do agree they should be a base AC +0, no ACP and no max Dex, but I would not require a light armor proficiency. They are clothes, after all.
As to the flat GP restriction, it is most likely tied to the bonus limitation of the bracers. If a set of bracers can only have a bonus modifier of +1 to +8, how does +33750gp work into that calculation?
The same way Regular Armor deals with it...Pay the Cost Slap on the ability, there is nothing to take into account there
Is it doable? I don't see why not. Is it necessarily optimal from a raw AC point of view? No, but if those armor special abilities are worth more to you than +3 AC, then it's a worthwhile trade. Clothing is not considered armor, and the simple presence of an armor bonus would not invalidate the monks abilities.
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The same way Regular Armor deals with it...Pay the Cost Slap on the ability, there is nothing to take into account thereRobes and shirts do not occupy the armor slot and are not listed on the armor list. Therefore, they are not available for armor enchantments.Bracers of Armor do not occupy the armor slot either but do give an armor bonus. As such, I do not see why other articles of clothing should not be able to function in the same manner.
I do agree they should be a base AC +0, no ACP and no max Dex, but I would not require a light armor proficiency. They are clothes, after all.
As to the flat GP restriction, it is most likely tied to the bonus limitation of the bracers. If a set of bracers can only have a bonus modifier of +1 to +8, how does +33750gp work into that calculation?
Right, but the description of the Bracers of Armor uses the modifier adjustment to determine the maximum armor benefit they can give (for example, if you give them a +3 equivalent ability, you can have a maximum armor benefit of +5). The flat gp abilities do not mesh with this inherent limitation of the item. In essence, it's really a trade off for being able to get an armor bonus over +5.
EDIT: Of course, this is specific for that particular item. If you design a nightshirt of defense or some such, you could effectively build it how you see fit.
Just make sure it is basically a different slot Bracers of Armor and all is good, doesn't really matter what slot it takes up so long as it makes some sense. Having a shirt take up the armor/robe slot act as bracers of armor is fine.
I guess the question would be, though, can you enchant clothing that is already magical as armor, in addition to its normal properties? A Monk's Robe is pretty much a must-have for any monk.
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Just make sure it is basically a different slot Bracers of Armor and all is good, doesn't really matter what slot it takes up so long as it makes some sense. Having a shirt take up the armor/robe slot act as bracers of armor is fine.
I don't want different slotted Bracers of armor I want the ability to put ANY armor properties on an shirt. If it has the same limitations, it defeats the purpose is what I'm saying, they should just change it to say that if you want an Enhancement bonus of 6 or better you can't have flat gp armor properties.
@Sunset: Actually at 20th level they do nothing, + my char needs Robes of Eldritch Heritage much more than Monks robes
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Is it doable? I don't see why not. Is it necessarily optimal from a raw AC point of view? No, but if those armor special abilities are worth more to you than +3 AC, then it's a worthwhile trade. Clothing is not considered armor, and the simple presence of an armor bonus would not invalidate the monks abilities.
Yeah its much better than what you'd think actually..especially with things like the Righteous property and the ever useful Fortification, My Characters AC is already high enough, +3 doesn't make much of a difference as the trade-off gives more offensive ability
Take care with such garments. Especially at the high levels there are certain critters and effects that will dissolve this garment in one round...
This is clearly the best way to have a magical shirt.
considering the shirt is being enchanted like armor, does the shirt need to be masterwork? and can a shirt be masterwork?
Sure, call it 150 gp and you're good. Homespun cotton doesn't cut it - high-end silk and mithral threadwork, there's a masterwork shirt!
Take care with such garments. Especially at the high levels there are certain critters and effects that will dissolve this garment in one round...It'll be worth it when we fight that rust monster and I laugh as the Fighter runs away while I Kamehameha the thing into oblivion!
It's chain lightning you gotta worry about - those secondary bolts can target objects ... and your party likely has insufficient numbers to soak all of them with just their bodies..
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considering the shirt is being enchanted like armor, does the shirt need to be masterwork? and can a shirt be masterwork?Sure, call it 150 gp and you're good. Homespun cotton doesn't cut it - high-end silk and mithral threadwork, there's a masterwork shirt!
Which then begs the question...can I have a Mythril Shirt? That is 1/2 the weight but double the hardness of a regular masterwork shirt? How about an adamantine Shirt? or Cold iron Shirt? Darkwood.. perhaps. Of course all of these shirts are just strands of said material woven into a shirt made from Silkworms and orphan tears.
Only items made primarily of metal can be made of mithral or adamantine. Items without meaningful amounts of metal are unaffected. So you could have adamantine cufflinks, but it would have no effect on your shirt. If you made a shirt out of primarily metal, then what you have is, well, armor.
*Deep Breath* CHEEEESSSSSEEEE.
That out of the way, I guess in a homebrew you could make it as a wondrous item. But if you want RAW to put in a rules thread, then no you can't do that.
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*Deep Breath* CHEEEESSSSSEEEE.
That out of the way, I guess in a homebrew you could make it as a wondrous item. But if you want RAW to put in a rules thread, then no you can't do that.
*Takes picture* Nice Smile, Caught the whole thing...
Anyway... Technically RAW has guidelines for creating such things, it'd be better to say that such an item was not already created..but its much easier in my opinion to just adapt the armor property rules to fit regular clothes...They have an AC of +0 and no max dex...must be made of the highest quality orphan tears (masterwork) before enchanted..
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Just make sure it is basically a different slot Bracers of Armor and all is good, doesn't really matter what slot it takes up so long as it makes some sense. Having a shirt take up the armor/robe slot act as bracers of armor is fine.I don't want different slotted Bracers of armor I want the ability to put ANY armor properties on an shirt. If it has the same limitations, it defeats the purpose is what I'm saying, they should just change it to say that if you want an Enhancement bonus of 6 or better you can't have flat gp armor properties.
@Sunset: Actually at 20th level they do nothing, + my char needs Robes of Eldritch Heritage much more than Monks robes
Well, it seems to me that yes, it should be absolutely rules legal to make magic shirts with armor bonuses.
First of all, I would use the chart for creating wondrous items as a starter. The cost is simply bonus squared x 1,000gp. You can get the enhancement bonus no problem. You loose the regular armor bonus associated with armor, so it would be suboptimal for a Fighter, but very useful for a Wizard.
Now, for balance I would suggest a couple of ways to do it. First, if your enhanced shirt provides an armor enhancement from +1 to +5 then I would allow it to use armor special abilities priced at the flat gold piece or enhancement bonus cost. This would seem the easiest version to use in my opinion.
A second way to do it would be to base the shirt on the bracers of armor and allow +1 to +8 enhancement bonuses. This is effectively compensating the bracer wearer for not having that regular armor bonus. With this method I would still allow armor special abilities but would require the access to the same prerequisites (exchanging Craft Wondrous Items for Craft Arms & Armor however). So you still need Grease for a Slick armor, or Invisibility for Shadow Armor. Using those spells I would then base cost on the Wondrous Item Chart using the Use-activated or continuous spell effect line. This would usually increase the cost. Also special abilities might be modified based upon multiple similar abilities cost modifiers.
Either way I think it a fair and balanced way to solve the problem. And either way seems to be based upon the rules. They would not be game legal in Society play because PCs cannot have Craft feats, but in any homebrew game I can see no reason at all that it cannot be done. In a homebrew there is no reason a PC could not commission an NPC to make it either.
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*Deep Breath* CHEEEESSSSSEEEE.
That out of the way, I guess in a homebrew you could make it as a wondrous item. But if you want RAW to put in a rules thread, then no you can't do that.
Actually, per the RAW you can.
Magic Item Gold Piece Values
Many factors must be considered when determining the price of new magic items. The easiest way to come up with a price is to compare the new item to an item that is already priced, using that price as a guide. Otherwise, use the guidelines summarized on Table: Estimating Magic Item Gold Piece Values.Effect> Base Price> Example
Armor bonus (enhancement)> Bonus squared x 1,000 gp> +1 chainmail
Use-activated or continuous> Spell level x caster level x 2,000 gp2> Lantern of revealing
These are the pertinent parts I referenced above. With these, which are completely in the RAW, you can simulate the effects of armor special abilities. Costs may change to some degree but the effects can be replicated.
(edit) I hate that you cannot format things using spaces on here! lol Hopefully you guys can follow the "chart" (/edit) :)
Anyway... Technically RAW has guidelines for creating such things, it'd be better to say that such an item was not already created..but its much easier in my opinion to just adapt the armor property rules to fit regular clothes...They have an AC of +0 and no max dex...must be made of the highest quality orphan tears (masterwork) before enchanted..
Folks over at the hetheroe un-named thread might take issue with the itemization, especially if it's used to gain a particular advantage by freeing up an item slot for something else.
I however, find the idea of +X Boxing Shorts of Armor to be awesome.
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Anyway... Technically RAW has guidelines for creating such things, it'd be better to say that such an item was not already created..but its much easier in my opinion to just adapt the armor property rules to fit regular clothes...They have an AC of +0 and no max dex...must be made of the highest quality orphan tears (masterwork) before enchanted..Folks over at the hetheroe un-named thread might take issue with the itemization, especially if it's used to gain a particular advantage by freeing up an item slot for something else.
I however, find the idea of +X Boxing Shorts of Armor to be awesome.
Oho You seem to know where Im going with this... trust me when i say its not for freeing up something, more like having a different ability
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Anyway... Technically RAW has guidelines for creating such things, it'd be better to say that such an item was not already created..but its much easier in my opinion to just adapt the armor property rules to fit regular clothes...They have an AC of +0 and no max dex...must be made of the highest quality orphan tears (masterwork) before enchanted..Folks over at the hetheroe un-named thread might take issue with the itemization, especially if it's used to gain a particular advantage by freeing up an item slot for something else.
I however, find the idea of +X Boxing Shorts of Armor to be awesome.
I suppose the "freeing up" a slot would be disadvantageous in some way. But if the +3 Shadow Shirt were worn, I would think the same rules apply to it as do normal magical armor.
If the wearer donned a +3 Shadow Shirt but then put on a +4 Light Fortified Leather Armor, then the Shirt would stop functioning entirely. Likewise a +1 Leather would stop functioning when the more powerful +3 Shadow Shirt were donned. So while you gain the use of the armor slot, I think it would be extremely rare circumstances where you could find a loophole to make them work simultaneously.
I really think it depends upon wording and the enhancement bonus used. Armors use an Armor enhancement bonus, and do not stack. Shield use a Shield enhancement bonus, which stacks with armor. You could try some other enhancement bonus, but that would have to be based upon the nature of the underlying spell. If you want a Shirt using a Deflection bonus for example, you need a prerequisite spell for the deflection bonus. And as GM I would draw the line there.
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Anyway... Technically RAW has guidelines for creating such things, it'd be better to say that such an item was not already created..but its much easier in my opinion to just adapt the armor property rules to fit regular clothes...They have an AC of +0 and no max dex...must be made of the highest quality orphan tears (masterwork) before enchanted..Folks over at the hetheroe un-named thread might take issue with the itemization, especially if it's used to gain a particular advantage by freeing up an item slot for something else.
I however, find the idea of +X Boxing Shorts of Armor to be awesome.
Actually I think +X Boxing Shorts of Armor would be fantastic to include in any Modern/Fantasy game. In fact if Magic were common I can even see baseball players wearing jerseys of +1 Arrow (Baseball) Deflection. Football players might wear +1 Gloves of Arrow (Football) Catching.
And heck EVERYONE would be wearing +8 Jockstraps!
I think it's a useful way for classes that would not normally get much use out of their armor slot to be able to utilize it, while freeing up the bracers slot for something else. There aren't a lot of bracers items, but things like Bracers of Archery come to mind for Zen Archers.
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Well I do that you all for your response (LMAO +8 jockstraps) I shall use them for my awesome monk (Hint* he has 4 archtypes and golden hair) to prove they are viable and can do stuff! The thread However can go one because this is an intriguing topic and I haven't gotten a definite answer (Some really good ones but no develops..sadness)
Actually I think +X Boxing Shorts of Armor would be fantastic to include in any Modern/Fantasy game. In fact if Magic were common I can even see baseball players wearing jerseys of +1 Arrow (Baseball) Deflection. Football players might wear +1 Gloves of Arrow (Football) Catching.And heck EVERYONE would be wearing +8 Jockstraps!
An interesting way to decrease sports related injuries.
Granted, folks would also don their +2 Bats, +1 Returning Baseballs, and +5 Merciful Gloves of Boxing.
Make sure the jockstrap is made of adamantine, and don't forget the Heavy Fortification. One can never be too careful. And beware of linebackers sporting Rhino Hide.
Cost of masterwork clothes would not be 150gp. It would be 150gp plus the cost of the clothes just like every other piece of armor. There's plenty of precedent for clothes being +0 armor (just as core races are treated as having +0 natural armor). As someone said, Magic Vestment calls this out.
So, I would say that magical clothes take up the 'armor' slot if they are enchanted (not that it matters, as stated earlier, if you wore armor over/under them only the better one would apply).
So, your armored clothes/robes/etc would cost 150.1 gp to 350 gp (depending on the type of clothes). The most likely set would be 160 gp for MW explorer's outfit, or 151 gp for a traveler's outfit, or 155 gp for a monk's outfit.
So, for +1 monk's outfit, 1,155gp. For +1 Explorer's outfit, 1,160gp, and for +1 traveler's outfit is 1,151gp.
When doing builds most people are restricted to the books. This may also lead to a pricing issue and since it is a homebrew item it will only make them say you had to make an item up to make the monk work.
Even if you win you still lose. For a homebrew game I don't think it is an issue and I would just price it like bracers of armor.
edit:I would suggest you and the opposition make up a list of what is allowed. I would not allow it since a shirt probably would not fly in most GM's games. At best it is probably.
Make sure the cup is made of adamantine, and don't forget the Heavy Fortification. One can never be too careful. And beware of linebackers sporting Rhino Hide.fixed. An adamantine jockstrap would basically be a chastity belt ...
I'd cast heat metal just for the fun of it
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RPG Superstar 2009 Top 32, 2010 Top 8
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Anyway... Technically RAW has guidelines for creating such things, it'd be better to say that such an item was not already created..but its much easier in my opinion to just adapt the armor property rules to fit regular clothes...They have an AC of +0 and no max dex...must be made of the highest quality orphan tears (masterwork) before enchanted..Folks over at the hetheroe un-named thread might take issue with the itemization, especially if it's used to gain a particular advantage by freeing up an item slot for something else.
I however, find the idea of +X Boxing Shorts of Armor to be awesome.
Ever watch Warehouse 13?
Once you enchant it as armor, it's armor.
Once it's armor, you lose any abilities tied to not wearing armor.
Once you enchant it as armor, it's armor.
Once it's armor, you lose any abilities tied to not wearing armor.
If that were true, then wearing Bracers of Armor would negate abilities as well, as it's armor. So would Magic Vestment, as it enchants your clothes the same as discussed.
Do you have a rules quote that says that, or is it just an opinion?
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You qualify for the Raving Dork Rules Lawyer Award with that question.Which then begs the question...can I have a Mythril Shirt? That is 1/2 the weight but double the hardness of a regular masterwork shirt? How about an adamantine Shirt? or Cold iron Shirt? Darkwood.. perhaps. Of course all of these shirts are just strands of said material woven into a shirt made from Silkworms and orphan tears.considering the shirt is being enchanted like armor, does the shirt need to be masterwork? and can a shirt be masterwork?Sure, call it 150 gp and you're good. Homespun cotton doesn't cut it - high-end silk and mithral threadwork, there's a masterwork shirt!
Huh? Really i didn't even know there was an award happening, I'm actually surprised RavingDork isnt here...but maybe thats becuase he's argued this 100 times over already?
But, yeah.... Could you technically weave small strands of metal though a shirt and it be armor and not armor at the same time?