I take it this was someone in the game?
1)&2) Yes it works as far as I can find in the book, back in 3.5 I want to say it was FAQ'd to only work on the initial attack after a charge. But that was 3.5 and Paizo hasn't reworded it any differently than it was back then. By RAW all attacks seem to get the bonus. The people saying otherwise don't seem to like that idea and are trying to justify it not working by saying an armor special ability becomes "use activated" and requires a charge action to activate it instead of being a constant bonus like the majority of abilities you can add to armor. This is more an RAI vs RAW issue. When the armor was released you were pretty much limited to 1 attack on a charge. Then the ways to get pounce/multiple attack charges became more numerous and the item became more powerful, thus the FAQ/Ask Wiz response. RAW yes, RAI it seems no. End result, up to the DM of your group...
3) No, the gear you are wearing as a humanoid when you change to another shape via wildshape merges. The gear you put on once wildshaped typically falls off when you are no longer polymorphed. Polymorph effects don't stack, only one can be in effect at a time, so the gear you are wearing when you are a horse drops off when you activate wildshape again (old effect ends, new effect begins). Your humanoid gear stays merged and you have a new form with the gear you had equiped in the old form laying on the ground around you.
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3) No, the gear you are wearing as a humanoid when you change to another shape via wildshape merges. The gear you put on once wildshaped typically falls off when you are no longer polymorphed. Polymorph effects don't stack, only one can be in effect at a time, so the gear you are wearing when you are a horse drops off when you activate wildshape again (old effect ends, new effect begins). Your humanoid gear stays merged and you have a new form with the gear you had equiped in the old form laying on the ground around you.
Would you mind sighting your source of this idea...im just not seeing anything about the gear falling off, no implication in the polymorph rules or the wildshape ability.
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I was attempting to get a society offical ruleing to avoid further argument in the local society group.
And what Mark just told you, is that the RAW is the society official ruling considering he said, "These items don't work any differently in the Society than they do in general, ..."
So you aren't going to get a society specific ruling. You'll have to get a PFRPG ruling on the questions.
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Would you mind sighting your source of this idea...im just not seeing anything about the gear falling off, no implication in the polymorph rules or the wildshape ability.
3) No, the gear you are wearing as a humanoid when you change to another shape via wildshape merges. The gear you put on once wildshaped typically falls off when you are no longer polymorphed. Polymorph effects don't stack, only one can be in effect at a time, so the gear you are wearing when you are a horse drops off when you activate wildshape again (old effect ends, new effect begins). Your humanoid gear stays merged and you have a new form with the gear you had equiped in the old form laying on the ground around you.
The rules of polymorph from the PRD indicate that Skylancer4's answer to 1 & 2 is correct. As long as it is an ability that is always active and does not require a use activate action, then it will work in the new form. The wording of Pounce indicate that on a charge you can make a full attack, which would indicate that all attacks of a full attack are a charge attack, and the rhino hide armor gives you additional damage on "any successful charge attack."
Although it could be argued that once a creature pounces after a charge, its attacks are no longer considered charge attacks, but rather a full attack. It says that the creature can take a full attack after charging. Basically this lets you do up to a double move and still get a full attack action. So it technically wouldn't be a charge attack action. As such, it would be a viable ruling by the RAW for the GM to determine that none of the pounce attacks would get the extra damage from Rhino Hide armor.
My interpretation would lead to ALL or NONE, never ONE.
As for question #3:
Polymorph in the PRD
states that two polymorph conditions cannot stack or exist simultaneously. Therefore the first has to end and the second then can begin. If you use wildshape while whildshaped, the order of events would basically be
activate wildshape
old shape ends
new shape begins
And you would have shifted directly from the old shape to the new shape.
If you change into a horse and put a saddle on yourself (ok, I know you'd probably need someone else to do this) and change back into a Druid, you are effectively ending your wildshape. What do you propose happens to the saddle? Do you really need the rules to tell you that it falls to the ground? Or do you figure you'd be a humanoid Druid with a saddle strapped to his back?
Therefore, by extrapolation of the rules (not home ruled, but actual interpretation and following the order of events as they happen) you would turn into a horse, put on your horseshoes, then do wildshape again thus following the above order of events:
Activate Wildshape into a horse
Put on Horseshoes
Activate Wildshape into a Shark
Horse ends
Horseshoes are not being worn any longer, as your wildshape has ended, and thus fall to the ground
Shark shape begins.
If the above extrapolation to the rules is not good enough, and you actually need the rules to tell you what happens to equipment you are wearing when you stop your wildshape, then I suggest the following:
The PRD polymorph description leaves it up to the GM as to what abilities and/or equipment abilities you would receive or retain that have not already been explicitly explained. So in this instance, I would leave it up to the GM to determine what happens to the horseshoes, but the RAW specifically would indicate that the rhino hide armor ability would be retained.
This may mean that you would have different rulings at different tables. And that's ok.
Question One: Is Rhino Hide Use Activated or Continual?
Researching the rules as written, I find the following section of the PRD: Using Items
This section states that there are four ways to activate magic items:
Spell Completion, Spell Trigger, Command Word, and Use Activated.
Use Activated items are defined there as follows:
This type of item simply has to be used in order to activate it. a character has to drink a potion, swing a sword, interpose a shield to deflect a blow in combat, look through a lens, sprinkle dust, wear a ring, or don a hat. Use activation is generally straightforward and self-explanatory.
Many use-activated items are objects that a character wears. Continually functioning items are practically always items that one wears. A few must simply be in the character's possession (meaning on his person). However, some items made for wearing must still be activated. Although this activation sometimes requires a command word (see above), usually it means mentally willing the activation to happen. The description of an item states whether a command word is needed in such a case.
Unless stated otherwise, activating a use-activated magic item is either a standard action or not an action at all and does not provoke attacks of opportunity, unless the use involves performing an action that provokes an attack of opportunity in itself. If the use of the item takes time before a magical effect occurs, then use activation is a standard action. If the item's activation is subsumed in its use and takes no extra time use, activation is not an action at all.
The Pathfinder SRD has a section about polymorph and similar shapechanging magic: About Transmutation Magic
Items that provide constant bonuses and do not need to be activated continue to function while melded in this way (with the exception of armor and shield bonuses, which cease to function). Items that require activation cannot be used while you maintain that form.
While this is not definitive, it can support the idea that rhino hide’s bonus charge damage is use activated rather than a continuous bonus. Unfortunately, the implications of such a ruling would eliminate many magic items from functioning while worn by a wildshaped druid. Items such as a ring of feather fall would fail to work. Wandering into the treacherous waters of interpreting the “rules as intended”, this does not appear to be consistent with the designers’ intent.
Question Two: Should the Bonus from Rhino Hide Armor Be Added to Each Attack of a Pounce?
A description of this armor is found in the Pathfinder SRD: Magic Items
This +2 hide armor is made from rhinoceros hide. In addition to granting a +2 enhancement bonus to AC, it has a –1 armor check penalty and deals an additional 2d6 points of damage on any successful charge attack made by the wearer, including a mounted charge.
This text’s wording supports the idea that each attack should receive a bonus to damage.
Unfortunately, several balance issues come into play when rhino hide is applied to a pouncing feline. It costs 5,165 gp, while normal +2 hide armor would cost 4,165 gp. For 1,000 gp, the pouncer effectively adds up to 10d6 damage on every charge. Since that’s way out of whack with the pricing given for any other magic item, one can conclude that interpretation is an “exploit”, taking advantage of poorly phrased or incomplete rules.
There is another balance problem with allowing rhino hide to function that way. As armor, rhino hide is simply not that spectacular. A charging fighter or barbarian who chooses to wear it sacrifices several points of AC in exchange for more firepower when he charges. The wildshaped druid isn’t losing as much defense: While he can’t wear magical armor, once he picks up Heavy Armor Proficiency, he can pick up dragon hide barding and get a higher AC than he would if he were wearing the rhino hide instead of absorbing it.
While it’s a bad idea to make a fetish of game balance, it’s easy to see why this is seen as a problem.
Question Three: Should Absorbed Items Remain Absorbed?
Researching the rules as written, I find the following reference in the PRD: About Transmutation Magic:
When you cast a polymorph spell that changes you into a creature of the animal, dragon, elemental, magical beast, plant, or vermin type, all of your gear melds into your body. Items that provide constant bonuses and do not need to be activated continue to function while melded in this way (with the exception of armor and shield bonuses, which cease to function). Items that require activation cannot be used while you maintain that form.
This passage’s wording supports the idea that items meld at the time a spell is cast (or wildshape first assumed). A later passage places some limits:
You can only be affected by one polymorph spell at a time. If a new polymorph spell is cast on you (or you activate a polymorph effect, such as wild shape), you can decide whether or not to allow it to affect you, taking the place of the old spell.
This passage indicates that one can only benefit from the effects of one polymorph at one time. The merged gear from a previous polymorph effect (wildshape, in this case) would be a benefit from that previous effect and would not remain absorbed. Since it does not fit the current form, it would thus fall off.
Why do we always have posts like this . Stop trying to game the game . I like how people that do this kinda stuff are always screening but but but this word here means this . You know that a Cl 5 item should not be giving you 10 d 6 extra damage in a round .
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[b]Question Three: Should Absorbed Items Remain Absorbed?
Researching the rules as written, I find the following reference in the PRD: About Transmutation Magic:When you cast a polymorph spell that changes you into a creature of the animal, dragon, elemental, magical beast, plant, or vermin type, all of your gear melds into your body. Items that provide constant bonuses and do not need to be activated continue to function while melded in this way (with the exception of armor and shield bonuses, which cease to function). Items that require activation cannot be used while you maintain that form.
This passage’s wording supports the idea that items meld at the time a spell is cast (or wildshape first assumed). A later passage places some limits:
You can only be affected by one polymorph spell at a time. If a new polymorph spell is cast on you (or you activate a polymorph effect, such as wild shape), you can decide whether or not to allow it to affect you, taking the place of the old spell.
This passage indicates that one can only benefit from the effects of one polymorph at one time. The merged gear from a previous polymorph effect (wildshape, in this case) would be a benefit from that previous effect and would not remain absorbed. Since it does not fit the current form, it would thus fall off.
A couple of things I would like to touch on here...
There is a large list of assumptions being made we need to clear up. Sir Wulf has referenced some very important things I.e. the rules surrounding polymorph and choose to believe it or not they all support the druid player in question.
"You can only be affected by one polymorph spell at a time. If a new polymorph spell is cast on you (or you activate a polymorph effect, such as wild shape), you can decide whether or not to allow it to affect you, taking the place of the old spell"
This is indicating the effects of the spells do not stack and that only one form may exist at one time, VERY important distinction and also clearly in reference to the forms themselves, not the items that they may meld with them. what this says is you effectively may not have the swim speed of a fish and gain the fly speed of a bird.
Now just because this druid is going from one form of animal to another doesnt mean that there is a split second where they are not the horse and also not the lion, that would indicate a shift back to human form which im afraid just isnt true. This is a poor justification that does not exist within the rules of wild shape. What does exist is truly quite simple.
#1 No wild shape benefits are stacking here the player is in fact losing all benefits of horse and gaining all benefits of his new lion form.
#2 I see no reason to believe the horshoes fall off in fact the polymorph rules specifically cover what gear melds into the new form and what gear does not. The Horshoes clearly fall under gear that melds into the form.
#3 Lastly I would like to say this, I understand why you want it to work this way , its lame and frankly I think its abusive.
Abusive but correct. The horseshoes meld into the new form and function as the player believes.
The horse shoes may or may not meld, but they Need hooves to function. They simply do not work unless they on on hooves. Or they would work in backpacks or on belts. The items itself says "when affixed to hooves" If they are not on Hooves they do not work.
On a technicality I could see someone saying the horseshoes wouldn't work since you are not a horse. Polymorph spells dont' change your type or subtypes so you are not an (animal(horse)) -- you are a (humanoid(whatever)) in a horse suit.
Now personally I wouldn't worry about it as a GM after all Shoeing a horse takes considerable time and isn't something you're going to do on a regular basis in the middle of an adventure as well as something of the rule of fun kicking in too from my perspective.
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The horse shoes may or may not meld, but they Need hooves to function. They simply do not work unless they on on hooves. Or they would work in backpacks or on belts. The items itself says "when affixed to hooves" If they are not on Hooves they do not work.
This example is poor in my opinion. heres why...
I Fully agree that it does indeed say "when affixed to the animals hooves" here is the question, since they were attached to his hooves and then he wildshapes away from that form and into another which now does not have hooves, by your definition the horshoes would cease to function because he no longer fulfils that requirement.
I dont think so ...as wild shape stipulates that the items of continual effect still work when melded into the new form.
A further example:
You dont have it on your waist anymore when you go from druid to animal but you still get your Belt of dex which states clearly "Grants the wearer" by your logic he is no longer "the wearer" of the belt... in this scenario in fact all continuous effect items state something similar so by your logic nothing would work in animal form, and then of coarse what was the point of the developers making such a reference in the polymorph effect.
No im afraid this argument is incorrect.
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Now personally I wouldn't worry about it as a GM after all Shoeing a horse takes considerable time and isn't something you're going to do on a regular basis in the middle of an adventure as well as something of the rule of fun kicking in too from my perspective.
Agreed completely he should be made to pay for the shoeing cost per adventure assuming a party member isnt a blacksmith or some such thing...Excellent point Sir. :)
No im afraid this argument is incorrect.
No it is not. You can not use wands if you can not trigger them, the shoes must be on hooves. If they are not on hooves they simply do not work.
You no longer meet the triggering effect requirement for said item. You can try and say it does still meet the requirement but this is simply false.
You simply no longer meet the trigging condition of the item.
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No im afraid this argument is incorrect.
No it is not. You can not use wands if you can not trigger them, the shoes must be on hooves. If they are not on hooves they simply do not work.
You no longer meet the triggering effect requirement for said item. You can try and say it does still meet the requirement but this is simply false.
You simply no longer meet the trigging condition of the item.
Okay now your attempting to say your right without sighting any sort of reference, please dont argue aimlessly, you are saying he does not meet the "triggering effect".
However to clarify my point further I am not "trying to say" anything I am pointing out the rules not my opinion of them.
#1 Polymorph states that items worn in the previous form meld into the new one and continue to function as long as thier effect is a continuous one, this is something contained within the polymorph ruleset.
#2 Again I pose the question contained within my previous post, Are you saying the Belt of dex would cease to function? Its the same idea your trying to present about the horshoes, so defend your argument by referencing why polymorphs gear stipulation on melding does not apply or further more how my belt example and your horshoe example are different dont just say im wrong.
I would encourage anyone else with feedback on this idea to speak up if they feel my argument is incorrect
The rules point put your type does not change. He is not an animal. The item points out to work it must be affixed to hooves.
The rules do not give a damn you are tying to loophole. You do not have hooves, the items do not function. The shoes must be affixed and outward. Once they meld they are no longer affixed to hooves. {also you crippled yourself, but that is besides the point}
Unless you can point me to the page that says you may ignore trigging action of an item you need hooves. You can not wear them on your boots to make them work, what you are trying to say the spell allows would allow you to do such.
As to the belt, well the belt must be worn, the shoes must be placed on hooves {and I assume walked upon or we have em on the 'On your belt" issue}. They simply are not the same thing, one boots stats if worn,the other gives you movement if shod on hooves.
simply put the item itself requires hooves to work.
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The rules point put your type does not change. He is not an animal. The item points out to work it must be affixed to hooves.
The rules do not give a damn you are tying to loophole. You do not have hooves, the items do not function. The shoes must be affixed and outward. Once they meld they are no longer affixed to hooves. {also you crippled yourself, but that is besides the point}
Unless you can point me to the page that says you may ignore trigging action of an item you need hooves. You can not wear them on your boots to make them work, what you are trying to say the spell allows would allow you to do such.
As to the belt, well the belt must be worn, the shoes must be placed on hooves {and I assume walked upon or we have em on the 'On your belt" issue}. They simply are not the same thing, one boots stats if worn,the other gives you movement if shod on hooves.
simply put the item itself requires hooves to work.
I understand what your saying, and all im saying is its a constant effect item and per polymorph no longer needs to be worn to gain the effect. Polymorph in fact removes the requirement of wearing the item within its text.
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I understand what your saying, and all im saying is its a constant effect item and per polymorph no longer needs to be worn to gain the effect. Polymorph in fact removes the requirement of wearing the item within its text.
You have it backwards.
You cannot shapeshift into a horse, put the horseshoes on, and then switch back and still gain benefit from them in any meaningful way. To imply otherwise is asinine.
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I understand what your saying, and all im saying is its a constant effect item and per polymorph no longer needs to be worn to gain the effect. Polymorph in fact removes the requirement of wearing the item within its text.
You have it backwards.
You cannot shapeshift into a horse, put the horseshoes on, and then switch back and still gain benefit from them in any meaningful way. To imply otherwise is asinine.
For it to be asinine he would have to change into a donkey...
Okay now your attempting to say your right without sighting any sort of reference, please dont argue aimlessly, you are saying he does not meet the "triggering effect".
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However to clarify my point further I am not "trying to say" anything I am pointing out the rules not my opinion of them.
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#1 Polymorph states that items worn in the previous form meld into the new one and continue to function as long as thier effect is a continuous one, this is something contained within the polymorph ruleset.
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#2 Again I pose the question contained within my previous post, Are you saying the Belt of dex would cease to function? Its the same idea your trying to present about the horshoes, so defend your argument by referencing why polymorphs gear stipulation on melding does not apply or further more how my belt example and your horshoe example are different dont just say im wrong.
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I would encourage anyone else with feedback on this idea to speak up if they feel my argument is incorrect
If you need the text that for what they are talking about:
These iron shoes come in sets of four like ordinary horseshoes.
When affixed to an [/b]animal’s[/b] hooves, they increase the animal’s base land speed by 30 feet; this counts as an enhancement bonus. As with other effects that increase speed, jumping distances
increase proportionally (see Chapter 4). All four shoes must be
worn by the same animal for the magic to be effective.
A druid by virtue of game mechanics is not an animal (at least not any core race), they are humanoid with a subtype. This is what would keep the horseshoes from "activating" when used on a wildshaped druid. Very strict, very literal, but as valid as what you are trying to suggest.
1)I never said or implied that you came back to "natural" biped form when going from one wildshape to another. I did say that one effect ended and another began. In that split second where you stopped being a foam horse with humanoid melded gear, you also stopped having the appropriate limbs for the gear you are wearing in that form. At this point you have two ways to go about it. One the gear is still worn, you have tacks impaled in your paws, take damage and are entangled in your gear that you were wearing. Or two, the gear falls off and is no hinderance to you in your new form.
It doesn't matter if the character goes back to humanoid form or not as far as I'm concerned, there is a solid "standard action" of time where the character is no longer a horse suit and at the end of it morphs into the cat suit. The polymorph effect ends, if you want to fluff it goes to humanoid form then to cat form, feel free. If you want to say it skips the humanoid to go from horse to cat form, sure whatever, it is fluff - enjoy. It still comes down to the two polymorph effects unable to coexist simultaneously, so before the second effect kicks in, the first effect ends. Once the first effect ends you are no longer able to wear the horseshoes so cannot be wearing them (and thus making them eligible to merge) into the new form of the second effect.
2)Your argument has a fundamental flaw. The belt is merged prior to the second effect. Not dependant on being in the initial polymorphed form to make use of it. You say it is flawed to "assume" that the character needs to go back to humaniod form before the second form is taken on. The same thing could be used to argue your point. No where does it say you don't have to. And actually, it might be intended that you do. Polymorphed effects cannot stack, stated plain as day in the rules. It also says you can end the effect as a standard action. It could be construed that you actually have to end wildshape, taking a standard action to do so and then have the ability to use wildshape again, using another standard action. It doesn't say anywhere you don't have to does it? Can you point to a ruling that allows for the druid to wildshape from one form to another and not have to drop out of the first shape? Here is all I can find on the subject:
The effect lasts for 1 hour per druid level, [b]or until she changes back.[b]
By RAW you cannot just shift into another form apparently, you need to change back to your natural form or let wildshape run its full duration. Which changes you back as well. So apparently, you DO need to go to human form.
I guess that makes the stacking of gear by a wildshaped druid a NO by RAW...
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1)I never said or implied that you came back to "natural" biped form when going from one wildshape to another. I did say that one effect ended and another began. In that split second where you stopped being a foam horse...
Okay if your not implying that there is a shift back and one form ends and another begins as you say then it seems to me the transition is seemless, all previous gear melds as the spell states and were done here.
Sigh, you do not have the required limbs or form the Item requires to work. If it melds or if it fall off is the same thing really, the magic does not bypass items requirements to function.
You can not just hang them on your belt. Even if they work on a non hooved , non animal which is very, very debatable.
Okay if your not implying that there is a shift back and one form ends and another begins as you say then it seems to me the transition is seemless, all previous gear melds as the spell states and were done here.
Seemless isn't the word I'd use for an effect that is stated to be unable to coexist with itself. Polymorph school says you can choose to end one effect when you decide to use wildshape. Once you are wildshaped and choose to use wildshape again there is a standard action worth of time between your initial effect ending and the second effect beginning. That would be the definition of an interruption.
The world seems completely black to someone who is totally blind. It isn't though.
I really don't get how anyone can argue that the horse shoes work when the description said that it only works on animals. Last I checked druids no matter how they wildshape is not an animal.
This is what I keep coming back to as well
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That is exactly the case.
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Horseshoes of Speed
Aura faint transmutation; CL 3rd
Slot feet; Price 3,000 gp; Weight 12 lbs. (for four)
Description
These iron shoes come in sets of four like ordinary horseshoes. When affixed to an animal's hooves, they increase the animal's base land speed by 30 feet; this counts as an enhancement bonus. As with other effects that increase speed, jumping distances increase proportionally (see Using Skills). All four shoes must be worn by the same animal for the magic to be effective.
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Never at any point does the druid become the animal creature type. RAW it is a fail on wearing horseshoes of speed
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As a society GM, I would not allow the horseshoes trick to work. You are not an animal, thus it does not work. As to your other two points, it works, but I would ask you not to abuse a clear loophole of the game's rules. If you wanted to run it, sure, I would just put you at another table. And when I see my venture captain on Tuesday, I'll be asking him to put in an attempt for errata. Seriously, mate, its PFS. The modules aren't that hard, so don't game the system.