This...
If they go into the Archetype, light armor max is 2 pts less AC+Dex then Heavy Armor (and MUCH more Dex intensive, esp. early on, so lower AC early in career).... is what confuses me.
There's no limit on the type of armour or shields the Dawnflower Dervish can use, so what do you mean by 'go into the archetype'? If you mean 'base the character on the fluff text', then sure, light armour isn't as much AC as heavy armour... but that's the exact same choice any other Fighter makes - nothing in the Dawnflower Dervish archetype itself forces that choice upon the character, and none of the archetype's class features rely on wearing a certain type or armour, or not.
When quoting the AC difference between two differing characters, I'd suggest it's a good idea to seperate the fluff from the crunch, just to make it clear to everyone involved.
As far as I can tell, the only potential AC loss for the Dawnflower Dervish over the vanilla fighter is up to 4 AC from excess Dexterity, if the character happens to have that much Dexterity in the first place. So rather than -4 to -13 (or -19) AC compared to a vanilla Fighter, in actual crunch terms the archetype has -0 to -4 AC compared to a vanilla Fighter. Whether other choices made when creating such a character further reduce the AC is neither here nor there, IMHO - the archetype itself is -0 to -4 AC due to the loss of the armour training feature, and that's it.
Since I made this distinction THREE TIMES, I'm kind of wondering how your confusion continues.
You give up 4 pts of AC for a sub-par 'Pounce' ability...at level 15.If you try to play the archetype as presented, you give up a whole lot more. As I noted, no wonder the Taldans kick the arse of the dervishes.
Meanwhile, a Barbarian can get Pounce at 10th, by swapping Nat AC for their DR, and as a Rage Power, by invoking the beast totem...basically the cost of three feats.
The ability to move and full attack is probably the single strongest fighting ability that exists in the game. Giving it to ANY class at low levels basically means you should give it to every Melee class at low levels.
If they had gone with Flavor text and restricted the Beast Totem Pounce to Natural Attacks and no iteratives, I see no balance problems. As it is, I definitely do.
==Aelryinth
James Jacobs' has the spirit and flavor of Pounce down, but unfortunately that's not the rules as are quoted. If Pounce only allowed Natural Weapons and/or not iteratives, it should say so.
stuff
So basically you're saying Barbarians are overpowered now?
The combination of Pounce and Come and Get me without a balancing Fighter ability (i.e. it's just Robilar's Gambit) definitely swings the weight in damage effectiveness towards the Barb.
There is nothing in the game that compares with being able to unleash more attacks on the enemy. Those two techniques are the biggest sources of extra attacks in 3.5, and that's not any different in PF. Your Ubercharger was based on Pounce, and your AoO fighter on Robilar's.
Now Barbs get both, and fighters get neither. Barbs are now better at fighting then Fighters are.
Yes, this swings the pendulum. There's no way Barbs should have gotten these abilities, and fighters did not.
==Aelryinth
The combination of Pounce and Come and Get me without a balancing Fighter ability (i.e. it's just Robilar's Gambit) definitely swings the weight in damage effectiveness towards the Barb.
There is nothing in the game that compares with being able to unleash more attacks on the enemy. Those two techniques are the biggest sources of extra attacks in 3.5, and that's not any different in PF. Your Ubercharger was based on Pounce, and your AoO fighter on Robilar's.
Now Barbs get both, and fighters get neither. Barbs are now better at fighting then Fighters are.
Yes, this swings the pendulum. There's no way Barbs should have gotten these abilities, and fighters did not.
==Aelryinth
Meh, there's balancing factors though. 9 times out of 10 I'd still rather play a fighter. A barbarian's AC is going to be in the gutter, especially with Reckless Abandon. The thing is there's really only one route to power for the barbarian. Invulnerable Rager archetype, Lesser Beast Totem, Beast Totem, Greater Beast Totem, Reckless Abandon, Superstition, Come and Get Me, Extra DR, Combat Reflexes, and a very MAD build requiring high str, dex, and con. It's a supercharger, but you've pointed out his weaknesses. It's a kamikaze.
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Since I made this distinction THREE TIMES, I'm kind of wondering how your confusion continues.
You give up 4 pts of AC for a sub-par 'Pounce' ability...at level 15.
No... I'm honestly still confused as to what, exactly, you're trying to say. You've quoted several different 'AC minuses' for the Dawnflower Dervish, and I'm still not getting where they come from, apart from the potenial of a maximum -4 to Dex-based AC from lack of armour training. Please - what am I missing here? :/
If you try to play the archetype as presented, you give up a whole lot more. As I noted, no wonder the Taldans kick the arse of the dervishes.
... Again - where is this actually coming from? The archetype as presented doesn't have any other AC-related penalties, apart from the lack of the armour training feature. Is there some re-print or errata I'm missing? Could you post a link if there is?
Seriously, I'm not trying to be antogonistic here - I honestly don't know where you're getting this stuff.
@ Jadite
Sorry about the misquote. I tend to post from my phone alot :)
Now, reguards the Dawnflowers DPR. I've got a high str DD that wears celestial chainmail, his AC Doesn't suffer for it. He two hands a falchion.IF he wanted to two hand and use a shield it can be done.
Quickdraw feat+Quickdraw lightshield means you can pull/sheathe a shield to your back as a FREE action. So, walk around with Scimitar and shield readied (for AC) then on your turn ,free action put shield away, full attack, free action ready shield again. Cheesy, but RAW. Granted any class can do this.
Someone mentioned a Barb using Reckless Abandon would have AC in the toilet. Not so, as Beast totem grants natural AC that largely counters the penalty from reckless abandon.
The full attack IS king though.A full BAB class SHOULD go for it every round. That means getting access to pounce/rapid attack or switchhitting.
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... Again - where is this actually coming from? The archetype as presented doesn't have any other AC-related penalties, apart from the lack of the armour training feature. Is there some re-print or errata I'm missing? Could you post a link if there is?Seriously, I'm not trying to be antogonistic here - I honestly don't know where you're getting this stuff.
He mean the flavour fluff of the archetype.
If you try to follow it you will get less Ac.abuse the "free actions are unlimited" text
It is a bit more than "cheesy" and any sane GM will stop it immediately.
The rule is: "Free Action: Free actions consume a very small amount of time and effort. You can perform one or more free actions while taking another action normally. However, there are reasonable limits on what you can really do for free, as decided by the GM."
The second someone is trying that trick he is already over the "reasonable limit".
Someone mentioned a Barb using Reckless Abandon would have AC in the toilet. Not so, as Beast totem grants natural AC that largely counters the penalty from reckless abandon.
They do counteract each other. If you're a raging supercharger with CAGM however your AC is going to be pretty awful. Let's imagine a level 12 Bbn with a dex of 16 and +5 breastplate, +2 ring of protection, +2 amulet of natural armor. AC 28. Now you rage (-2 AC) charge (-2 AC) and activate CAGM. Now your AC is 24 and they get a +4 to hit you. CR 12 creatures already have +15-+21. In other words, auto-hit. Which is fine, that's what you're expecting, and you should have DR 8/- at least by this point. If you put the required resources into upping your AC as much as possible and it's still auto-hit, you don't bother, at least then you can spend your money on other stuff.
The point is more that:
You will Pounce on the creature and get a full attack on it.
It will then get x attacks on you...and you will get another x attacks at highest hit chance on it, likely killing it promptly. The fact you got hit is almost irrelevant...it's now dead.
Cue the healing at the end of round 1, and then the CLW wands, and off to the next encounter.
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Ah yes, the impossible to actually make Celestial Armor, which destroys the armor rules. That 'invisible' +4 Dex mod, which makes it the best armor in the game.
A normal Chainmail is +6 AC, +2 Dex for +8 AC total. If you make it mithral, it is +4 Dex and light armor.
Celestial armor is +3 Chainmail, ''effectively mithral'', with the power to fly 1/day, priced at 22k...but with a Dex limit of +8!!!!!!
It officially borks ALL the armor rules, somehow managing to provide a +4 limit to the Dex mod and the ability to fly 1/day for 9000 gp. (+3+ Mithral is 13k). Oh, but wait...it's not mithral. So it's +14k for a +6 to dex mod and all the benefits of mithral.
But this also means, that you could make Celestial Plate armor, which does the exact same thing, and so your example still falls flat...although I agree it unlikely any non Dex-spec fighter is going to have a 32 Dex to make max use of this. Note that you'd need a 34 for a fighter to max out the Celestial Mail...
Whatever, we've just made the perfect case that Celestial adamantine armor is the only armor fighters should be wearing! (since it doesn't actually say Celestial armor is mithral)
Hmm. Yes. Celestial Adamantine Plate Armor, +7 Dex mod...perfect for the 13 starting Dex fighter. Why have armor training at all?
===Aelryinth
It officially borks ALL the armor rules, somehow managing to provide a +4 limit to the Dex mod and the ability to fly 1/day for 9000 gp. (+3+ Mithral is 13k). Oh, but wait...it's not mithral. So it's +14k for a +6 to dex mod and all the benefits of mithral.
===Aelryinth
As you pointed out yourself it's not mithral. Borks ALL the armor rules?
It's a unike armor. It's one of the best armor if you are a high dex character and it's light armor. Good if you're a bard, rogue, ranger or a fighter relying on dex. I wouldn't mind more armor like this.As for barbs being the best damage dealers, I don't know. If you are level 17 or higher, perhaps, but that depends on your DM.
Barbarian vs Paladin fighting evil? I think Paladin wins. Especially if fighting evil oustiders, evil undeads and evil dragons.
Quoting James Jacobs on rules matters is just not that smart an idea IMHO.
You might notice that he makes absolutely no effort to reconcile the fact that Pounce accomplishes a `Full Attack` with the fact that if you are using Manufactured Weapons, Iterative Attacks are exactly the result of a Full Attack.
Not smart? James is not Jason B, but he his the man when it comes to monsters.
As for not reconciling using Manufactured Weapons and Iterative Attacks, he points out it's up to the DM.He can't make a ruling on how the barbarian rage powers should work, thats Jason B or Sean.
When I'm up to it I might start a new thread on the rules forum. Or perhaps you could do it?
Still Pounce is only usable once per fight (or maximum two).
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beast totem pounce helps them alot.
and since whern does furious cap at 5? i think it lets a +5 weapon effectively become +7 in the hands of a barb.
More importantly, it lets a +2 straight-bonus weapon become a +4 straight-bonus weapon in the hands of a barbarian, enabling him to ignore special-materials DR.
Now imagine this guy not-infrequently critting with a falcata swung in two hands. Assuming a STR of 26 at 12th, you're looking at something like 3x(d8+12[STR]+12[PA]+4[ENH]) = ~ 97.5pts damage on a crit using a +2 cost weapon. And that's minimum for 26 STR with just PA and EWP (and probably ImpCrit or a Keen scabbard) for feats. Any other numeric bonus like bardsong or overhead chop or higher bonus, multiply by three for that crit -- and he has about an 85% chance of scoring one each full-attack at that level, assuming Haste, or Enlarge granting one AoO.
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and since whern does furious cap at 5? i think it lets a +5 weapon effectively become +7 in the hands of a barb.
More importantly, it lets a +2 straight-bonus weapon become a +4 straight-bonus weapon in the hands of a barbarian, enabling him to ignore special-materials DR.
Weapons with an enhancement bonus of +3 or greater can ignore some types of damage reduction, regardless of their actual material or alignment. The following table shows what type of enhancement bonus is needed to overcome some common types of damage reduction.
I read that as the weapon need to have a permanent enhancement bonus of +X, before any feat, temporary enchanting and so on.
It is a requirement for the weapon, not the weapon in the hands of character Adam with feat Y.
Edit:
A furious weapon serves as a focus for its wielder’s anger. When the wielder is raging or under the effect of a rage spell, the weapon’s enhancement bonus is +2 better than normal.the weapon is +2 better.
I did totally forgot that "Furious" was a weapon ability and not a class ability.
Yes, in that situation (like for bane weapons against the specific enemies) it is a weapon enhancement and it work.
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and since whern does furious cap at 5? i think it lets a +5 weapon effectively become +7 in the hands of a barb.More importantly, it lets a +2 straight-bonus weapon become a +4 straight-bonus weapon in the hands of a barbarian, enabling him to ignore special-materials DR.
Weapons with an enhancement bonus of +3 or greater can ignore some types of damage reduction, regardless of their actual material or alignment. The following table shows what type of enhancement bonus is needed to overcome some common types of damage reduction.
I read that as the weapon need to have a permanent enhancement bonus of +X, before any feat, temporary enchanting and so on.
It is a requirement for the weapon, not the weapon in the hands of character Adam with feat Y.
A furious weapon serves as a focus for its wielder’s anger. When the wielder is raging or under the effect of a rage spell, the weapon’s enhancement bonus is +2 better than normal.
the weapon is +2 better.
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The combination of Pounce and Come and Get me without a balancing Fighter ability (i.e. it's just Robilar's Gambit) definitely swings the weight in damage effectiveness towards the Barb.
There is nothing in the game that compares with being able to unleash more attacks on the enemy. Those two techniques are the biggest sources of extra attacks in 3.5, and that's not any different in PF. Your Ubercharger was based on Pounce, and your AoO fighter on Robilar's.
Now Barbs get both, and fighters get neither. Barbs are now better at fighting then Fighters are.
Yes, this swings the pendulum. There's no way Barbs should have gotten these abilities, and fighters did not.
==Aelryinth
Honestly, I think is the other way around. Barbarians (and in other way paladins) can stand high level game, fighters cannot.
This makes barbarians and paladins well made, and fighters needing a fix.
Again.
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A raging barbarian is much less intimidating once he's disarmed or tripped. And Reckless Offense and Come and Get Me make combat maneuvers against them quite easy.
Come and Get Me is very vulnerable against enemies out of the barbarian's reach (which includes big monsters, enemies with reach weapons, archers and everyone with lunge).
It's still a nice ability, but it has some serious weaknesses.
A raging barbarian is much less intimidating once he's disarmed or tripped. And Reckless Offense and Come and Get Me make combat maneuvers against them quite easy.
Come and Get Me is very vulnerable against enemies out of the barbarian's reach (which includes big monsters, enemies with reach weapons, archers and everyone with lunge).
It's still a nice ability, but it has some serious weaknesses.
I've seen many attempts fail because of Strenght Surge.
And the barb has tactical advantage because of pounce (he will full attack if you charge him, wasting the attempt vs Strenght Surge, and will full attack if you wait the charge).
I admit that the advanatage of SS kicks at high levels.
... Again - where is this actually coming from? The archetype as presented doesn't have any other AC-related penalties, apart from the lack of the armour training feature. Is there some re-print or errata I'm missing? Could you post a link if there is?Seriously, I'm not trying to be antogonistic here - I honestly don't know where you're getting this stuff.
He mean the flavour fluff of the archetype.
If you try to follow it you will get less Ac.abuse the "free actions are unlimited" textIt is a bit more than "cheesy" and any sane GM will stop it immediately.
The rule is: "Free Action: Free actions consume a very small amount of time and effort. You can perform one or more free actions while taking another action normally. However, there are reasonable limits on what you can really do for free, as decided by the GM."
The second someone is trying that trick he is already over the "reasonable limit".
I admit the abuse is pushing it (at least), I simply bought it before my group as a way of saying 'this is the PF version of Improved Buckler Defense' Feat from CW. The effect is the same.
Also, not really any different to my TWF fix: Glove of Storing. Walk around with a Scimitar 2handed, if you need to-move up and smack 2handed. When you are in a position to full attack, pull your offhand Kukri from the glove (free action) and TWF full attack. Sheathe offhand weapon in your glove when finished. Take any AOO'S 2handed.
No one has complained at all about this use, probably because the glove is magic rather than a shield with good straps.
He's probably alluding to the Fighter's relative lack of defensive ability in the game re: saves.
==Aelryinth
It officially borks ALL the armor rules, somehow managing to provide a +4 limit to the Dex mod and the ability to fly 1/day for 9000 gp. (+3+ Mithral is 13k). Oh, but wait...it's not mithral. So it's +14k for a +6 to dex mod and all the benefits of mithral.
===Aelryinth
As you pointed out yourself it's not mithral. Borks ALL the armor rules?
It's a unike armor. It's one of the best armor if you are a high dex character and it's light armor. Good if you're a bard, rogue, ranger or a fighter relying on dex. I wouldn't mind more armor like this.As for barbs being the best damage dealers, I don't know. If you are level 17 or higher, perhaps, but that depends on your DM.
Barbarian vs Paladin fighting evil? I think Paladin wins. Especially if fighting evil oustiders, evil undeads and evil dragons.
Yes, borks ALL the armor rules. This chainmail +3 allows a +16 total mod to armor/dex combo, plus FLY 1/day, for 3,000 gp less then Full Plate +5, which tops at +15 AC.
The armor rules are based on Medium Armor +1 AC combo over light, Heavy Armor +1 AC over Medium.
Unique armor does not grant it the right to allow +5 AC over any other medium armor...and it's not even mithral or adamantine!
I don't know who priced that armor, but they've got something wrong with them.
Of course, I can just apply their formula to Full Plate, and who needs Fighter Armor Training? The +4 Dex bonus basically takes care of that for you, unless you Dex is truly insane. Making it mithral will take you to a 28 Dex, Fighter training all the way to a 36.
==Aelryinth
Quoting James Jacobs on rules matters is just not that smart an idea IMHO.
You might notice that he makes absolutely no effort to reconcile the fact that Pounce accomplishes a `Full Attack` with the fact that if you are using Manufactured Weapons, Iterative Attacks are exactly the result of a Full Attack.Not smart? James is not Jason B, but he his the man when it comes to monsters.
As for not reconciling using Manufactured Weapons and Iterative Attacks, he points out it's up to the DM.
He can't make a ruling on how the barbarian rage powers should work, thats Jason B or Sean.
When I'm up to it I might start a new thread on the rules forum. Or perhaps you could do it?Still Pounce is only usable once per fight (or maximum two).
Pounce only has to be usable once or twice a fight.
Pounce is basically 'give me an extra one to three attacks this round.'
1 to 3 attacks from a Melee is basically enough to drastically shorten a monster's life. A Suprise Round Pounce + Init in normal round has an excellent chance of killing most CR encounters outright.
====Aelryinth
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There is nothing in the game that compares with being able to unleash more attacks on the enemy. Those two techniques are the biggest sources of extra attacks in 3.5, and that's not any different in PF. Your Ubercharger was based on Pounce, and your AoO fighter on Robilar's.
Now Barbs get both, and fighters get neither. Barbs are now better at fighting then Fighters are.
They are better at attacking than fighters. They are not better at fighting than fighters -- because one of the very best kinds of fighting is high-AC tanking on full-def versus the nasty thing with five attacks (four of which are bouncing off you every turn).
BTW, Pushing Assault and a reach-granted AoO is all an opponent needs to stuff a pouncer.
A raging barbarian is much less intimidating once he's disarmed or tripped. And Reckless Offense and Come and Get Me make combat maneuvers against them quite easy.
Actually Come and Get Me is well worth it in certain circumstances -- because it's the only way to cream things with Spring Attack or XYZ-By-Attack.
Like many abilities-with-limitations, you have to use your head in determining when to kick them in.
He's probably alluding to the Fighter's relative lack of defensive ability in the game re: saves.
==Aelryinth
:) exactly. Being a killing machine means nothing, if you all the time are dominated, mazed, or whatelse.
Fortitude saves are not safe at those levels, since APG. Persistend + Perfected [something bad] are difficult to resist (flesh to stone as an example).
A Suprise Round Pounce + Init in normal round has an excellent chance of killing most CR encounters outright.
But shouldn't a pounce in a surprise round still give only one standard attack? Even if you stand right next to a monster that you surprise, you still only get one standard action - right?
I also noted somewhere up thread (I think it was this thread anyway) that someone said that a charge would let you double move and then attack - this is also not true if it's a surprise round (people probably know this, so I'm just saying it because I didn't find out myself untill recently...).
If you are able to take only a standard action on your turn, you can still charge, but you are only allowed to move up to your speed (instead of up to double your speed) and you cannot draw a weapon unless you possess the Quick Draw feat. You can't use this option unless you are restricted to taking only a standard action on your turn.
1 to 3 attacks from a Melee is basically enough to drastically shorten a monster's life. A Suprise Round Pounce + Init in normal round has an excellent chance of killing most CR encounters outright.====Aelryinth
IF that encounter is a single creature, and you win init. That's how the game SHOULD be balanced. Heck it's how things are at level 1, you see it, you hit it, it goes squish, you collect your XP. Unless there's multiple things. Pounce just lets the Barbarian scale with escalating enemy hit points.
And it doesn't let the other Melees scale with escalating HP is the whole problem.
A turtling fighter is a great solution to an attacker, unless the DM simply has it up and go away and beat on something else because it can't injure you (a tired argument, but realistic...if it can't hurt you, go hurt something it can).
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Derwalt, you can do a half-charge on a suprise round (normal move, not double move, still must be straight line). And if you can charge, you can pounce.
There is nothing more dangerous then giving away more attacks to a Melee. Pouncing and CAGM are huge damage spikes, they will easily offset the fact Barbs don't have pure dmg/attack as high as some fighters.
Likewise, a Reach AoO is hardly guaranteed. By 10th level, Enlarge Person on demand, and a reach weapon of the barb himself (remember, they aren't tied to weapons like Fighters are) basically means 20' of reach, and so not an issue for them.
==Aelryinth
He's probably alluding to the Fighter's relative lack of defensive ability in the game re: saves.
==Aelryinth
:) exactly. Being a killing machine means nothing, if you all the time are dominated, mazed, or whatelse.
If you are smart player you bost your fighters will saves and get iron will and improved iropn will. Fighterts got the feats to spare.
And fighters (and barbs) they are not alone. They can get help from casters such as Clerics or use a simple potion of protection from evil or get freedom of movement, etc.
Also fighters usually have a better to attack bonus. The barbarians many attacks does not mean they all hit.
And as I pointed out before. Fighter rocks from level 5 and all the way, barbarians don't. True at level 17 bars are great but you have to play a barb from level 1 to get there. Fighers are great all the time and their bonuses are always on.
Since a barbarian is trashing their AC from the get go, it becomes very difficult to have a lvl appropriate AC. Natural Armor bonus from beast totem can offset reckless assault but the barbarian is still taking a -6 to his AC (rage and CaGM) or more if enlarged. With this in mind, it is probably a bad move to try and offset this AC loss with resources devoted to more AC. What should a barbarian invest in defense wise if not AC? Should they go for increased concealment (only thing I can think of that is purchasable) or should they invest in increased DR (something I don't quite like due to all the goodies your not taking instead)? Is there something else that would help out?
Fortification in my opinion is probably where you want to spend your defense oriented gold, it'll reduce the damage you take considerably in the long run. It's always a good investment, but when your AC is so low, its going to be even better if you can just negate those crits out of hand. There are other options of course, but that one is the best in my opinion.
If your AC is such that basically you are always going to get hit, then you don't invest in AC, you invest in DR and/or concealment. Miss chances are also dmg avoidance. This not incidentally saves you a lot of money you can devote to other things. It's the principle of the invulnerable Rager...get hit, just get hit for a lot less.
Fighter Weapon Training exactly equals the boost from Barbarian rage as far as To hit. The only difference will be Greater Weapon focus...a +1. And AoO's are always at highest to hit chance, and Pounce is a charge for +2. Hitting is not going to be the problem here.
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As for Iron Will and Imp versions, that's a feat tax, basically saying "You suck, you know it, we're forcing you to take these feats." In which case, you should simply make them part of the class and burn the class features ahead of time.
And rarely does a barb not have enough rage rounds to use them in every fight...especially the key boss fights.
===Aelryinth
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If your AC is such that basically you are always going to get hit, then you don't invest in AC, you invest in DR and/or concealment. Miss chances are also dmg avoidance. This not incidentally saves you a lot of money you can devote to other things. It's the principle of the invulnerable Rager...get hit, just get hit for a lot less.
Fighter Weapon Training exactly equals the boost from Barbarian rage as far as To hit. The only difference will be Greater Weapon focus...a +1. And AoO's are always at highest to hit chance, and Pounce is a charge for +2. Hitting is not going to be the problem here.
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As for Iron Will and Imp versions, that's a feat tax, basically saying "You suck, you know it, we're forcing you to take these feats." In which case, you should simply make them part of the class and burn the class features ahead of time.And rarely does a barb not have enough rage rounds to use them in every fight...especially the key boss fights.
===Aelryinth
and the item that ups a fighters weapon raining by 2 is countered by the furious weapon property.
also i never take iron will on my fighters. Then again i'm weird like that. Luck > skillin my experience. i'll just roll an 18 and pass the save. No biggie.
If your AC is such that basically you are always going to get hit, then you don't invest in AC, you invest in DR and/or concealment.
If you can't get a great AC you can always get a goood ac. Good AC is better than crappy AC.
So no, you are not always going to get hit even if your AC isn't great.
Fighter Weapon Training exactly equals the boost from Barbarian rage as far as To hit. The only difference will be Greater Weapon focus...a +1.
No, not all levels and not all the time.
Again you start at level 1, not at level 17.You can't rage all time (every round in every fight) when you're level 1, 5, 8 or whatever.
Also, fighters don't have to worry about AC and they don't need con 15, this mean they can boost their strength higher.
And AoO's are always at highest to hit chance,
Yes, and?
and Pounce is a charge for +2. Hitting is not going to be the problem here.
All your attacks are going to hit every time regardles of whatever monster you charge? I don't think so. As for +2 bonus when charging all characters get them, Fighters too. And you can't always charge.
And as some others have pointed out, there are fighter archetypes that let you move and full attack.
As for Iron Will and Imp versions, that's a feat tax, basically saying "You suck, you know it, we're forcing you to take these feats." In which case, you should simply make them part of the class and burn the class features ahead of time.
This is just BS. It's just like calling the "must have" rage powers taxes. Fighters get bonus feats - barbarians get rage powers.
Fighters have the feats to spare and they can boost their saves by using heroism and greater Heroism (or bardic perfoprmance) that stack with bravery. If they start av halv elf they can bet +2 on will saves and +2 vs. enchantment. Both bstack with iron will. Fighters don't really the human bonus feat, so they can be half-elves.
Then there are traits that boost saves. If you use a feat you get two more traits.
If you play a AP you start at level 1, not at level 17 or level 20.
And rarely does a barb not have enough rage rounds to use them in every fight...especially the key boss fights.
true if you are level 17, not true if you are level 1, 5, 8 or whatever.
They do, however, have to worry about getting hit with spells when not raging.===Aelryinth
and the item that ups a fighters weapon raining by 2 is countered by the furious weapon property.
No, but both are good.
If you can't get a great AC you can always get a goood ac. Good AC is better than crappy AC.
So no, you are not always going to get hit even if your AC isn't great.
See math. A barbarian with a very good AC for his level and a substantial investment of resources spent, while raging, charging, and CAGM activated is auto-hit. You therefore don't expend any FURTHER resources upping your AC but rather invest in alternate damage mitigation. That's what he was getting at and that's 100% right. But it's also something a fighter should do.
No, not all levels and not all the time.
Again you start at level 1, not at level 17.
You can't rage all time (every round in every fight) when you're level 1, 5, 8 or whatever.
Let's assume there are 4 fights in a day, and they each last 5 rounds. That's 20 rounds of combat. So the tipping point is when a Barbarian reaches 20 rage rounds he is basically raging whenever he needs to be. Assume 16 con and no boosts, minimum baseline for a melee. Barbarian gets 4+con at level 1, 2 every level thereafter. So at level 8 you do in fact have 20 rage rounds and are raging basically whenever you need to be. Not 17. Let's at least argue honestly here.
Hopefully Ultimate Combat will bring back Rolibar's Gambit for fighters.Then that point will be moot.
Pounce is less of an issue than is being made out.
Archers can full attack all the time AT Range!
2 FIGHTER archetypes get a similar ability
The Two Handed Archetype (if the wins initiative can deadly stroke on first round and full attack on second), the effect is enough to kill most level appropriate foes in 2rds (just like a barb who pounces+ fullattacks)
The are lots of ways for a melee char to 2rd kill a level appropriate foe that are at least as reliable as pounce.
I admit defensively the barb has an advantage.
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No, but both are good.
and the item that ups a fighters weapon raining by 2 is countered by the furious weapon property.
how not?
other than price, but its always better to have furious on a weapon for a barb than any other property. its +2 higher bonus when raging. by the time you can afford a +2 weapon you get a +1 thats +3 while raging, which should be most of the time.
its a "patch" of sorts that is a weapon enhancement tax that all barbarians should have.
besides a +4 furious weapon overcomes any dr except /- in the game. including dr/epic since its a +6 weapon.
Man. All this talk makes me want to get back to playing my Mul Barbarian (Kabrak) again!
If you are smart player you bost your fighters will saves and get iron will and improved iropn will. Fighterts got the feats to spare.
You burned two feats for an effect not even comparable to superstition of Divine Grace. And i still don't get wy fighters should not use those feats for their combat techniques. They have de facto 2 feat less because they lack of defensive class features.
And fighters (and barbs) they are not alone. They can get help from casters such as Clerics or use a simple potion of protection from evil or get freedom of movement, etc.
Stuff having a duration, can be dispelled, and so on. Moreover, the plot could ask for them being alone sometimes. Is sad they can't.
Also fighters usually have a better to attack bonus. The barbarians many attacks does not mean they all hit.
Reread the thread please. Consider that AOOs like the ones from CaGM are made with the full BAB, the same those from overbearing assault. And Reckless abandon can add a lot to hit. The only problem is AC, pointless vs casters, pointless if enemies dies quickly, less important since there are miss chances by items and spells.
And as I pointed out before. Fighter rocks from level 5 and all the way, barbarians don't. True at level 17 bars are great but you have to play a barb from level 1 to get there. Fighers are great all the time and their bonuses are always on.
Fighters are my favourite melee class for a number of reasons. This does not mean that should not be fixed in what they are lacking. And about "rocking", since feat chains still exist, is not that easy make them able to accomplish awesome moves without over-specializing them.
That's why It would be cool to swap bravery for cool martial arts TOB style moves (and make it fighter only) kinda like the spelless ranger archetype from APG.
Oh, another part of my build, level 11 you take Dazing Assault so when you flip on CAGM and they attack, you get a chance to daze them before every single hit. With a furious weapon and Reckless Assault you probably have a decent chance to hit even with Dazing Assault on, and the fort save is DC 21 which they will likely make 25% of the time, but if you're attacking 7 times a round...:)
Ok...so for about 5 pages we have been mulling over one basic type of barbarian build. The resurrection of the super charger. Now, I know that the best rage powers kind of push the barbarian in this direction but I think there are also some interesting other options for the barbarian..
Does anyone have an opinion on the mounted rager and its rage powers? I see alot of possible character synergy here. I imagine a raging barbarian charging into battle on his trusted druid mount of doom. Barbarian gets to charge into battle on the best mount in the game and the druid gets to add rage to all the other ridiculous pounce/rake/death goodies.
Are their other pathways that seem viable for the barbarian? Maneuver specialist, etc.
The maneuver barbarian is very good at maneuvers. I think Fighter has the feats required to make a go at a trip build, however, not the barbarian. I could see a barb that was really good at bull-rushing, but the whole point of that is moot if there's no one to actually murder the thing. I HAVE seen a grapple build and my god it's sick. It's like auto-grapple anything in the book...and do tickle damage to it sadly. It's nonetheless impressive at what it does.
You can absolutely build a viable barbarian that has a lot of Neat Tricks (TM) and not just one really good one (supercharging). Provided you have access to the APG.
I can say nothing about mounted barbarian as I generally automatically dismiss mounted combat as a viable option, since it never is in games I run or play, so I am interested to hear someone else's critique of it compared to a cavalier for instance.
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Since a barbarian is trashing their AC from the get go, it becomes very difficult to have a lvl appropriate AC. Natural Armor bonus from beast totem can offset reckless assault but the barbarian is still taking a -6 to his AC (rage and CaGM) or more if enlarged. With this in mind, it is probably a bad move to try and offset this AC loss with resources devoted to more AC. What should a barbarian invest in defense wise if not AC?
Extra attacks from AoOs. Extra attacks with ranged weapons (it never ceases to amaze me how few straight-BAB fighters have bows). Take Quickdraw.
-- Win battles of attrition.
The Fighters get the equivalent of Pounce at levels 19 and 20 (the 2H fighter gets his Deadly blow, which is probably BETTER then Pounce, and the Mobile Fighter gets Full attack as a Standard action.)
The earlier 'move and attack' variants are all at best HALF as effective as Pounce (they give up an attack and/or have a to hit penalty).
And they occur levels later, too. The barb starts at 10th!
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The fighter has a problem with will saves. Will saves are not solved by class features for a fighter. They are solved by Rage and/or Superstitious by a Barb. Furthermore, the barb can devote favored class bonuses, if human, to INCREASING HIS SAVES.
Did you all happen to notice that Fighters can't even buy combat feats with Favored Class bonuses? While Barbs can buy rage rounds, rage buffs, theives can buy tricks, sorcs buy spells, etc ?
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The fact fighters get +1 TH over Barbs is based around this: When a barb is charging or unleashing AoO, like any melee of his level, he's not going to miss. Sure, an iterative down the line MIGHT. But the primary attack? No. Like a primary Melee, his secondary attack is as likely to hit as the rogue's primary.
The fact the fighter is marginally better on the attack means nothing. it's if the monster gets hit, that's all that's important...and primary attacks = AoO = they hit. So when you generate more primary attacks and AoO you hit more, and things get dead faster.
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Deadly Stroke is kind of funny.
It's definitely the single best attack for a 2h guy if he's got a high multiplier weapon. It's kind of funny how it becomes a trade-off between using a weapon with a high crit range for crit feats, or high crit multiplier for Deadly Stroke.
No wonder why all avatars of Death carry scythes. Deadly stroking the PC's to death.
I wonder if someone could put out the math of a deadly stroking GreatAxe and/or scythe vs a Falchion at high level. Assume a +50 dmg modifier, or something similar.
===Aelryinth
Since a barbarian is trashing their AC from the get go, it becomes very difficult to have a lvl appropriate AC. Natural Armor bonus from beast totem can offset reckless assault but the barbarian is still taking a -6 to his AC (rage and CaGM) or more if enlarged. With this in mind, it is probably a bad move to try and offset this AC loss with resources devoted to more AC. What should a barbarian invest in defense wise if not AC?Extra attacks from AoOs. Extra attacks with ranged weapons (it never ceases to amaze me how few straight-BAB fighters have bows). Take Quickdraw.
-- Win battles of attrition.
this is correct.
If you're going to get hit, either dmg mitigate (Cloaks of Displace, increased DR), or KILL THE ENEMY FASTER. he can't do damage if he's dead.==Aelryinth
Ok...so for about 5 pages we have been mulling over one basic type of barbarian build. The resurrection of the super charger. Now, I know that the best rage powers kind of push the barbarian in this direction but I think there are also some interesting other options for the barbarian..
Does anyone have an opinion on the mounted rager and its rage powers? I see alot of possible character synergy here. I imagine a raging barbarian charging into battle on his trusted druid mount of doom. Barbarian gets to charge into battle on the best mount in the game and the druid gets to add rage to all the other ridiculous pounce/rake/death goodies.
Are their other pathways that seem viable for the barbarian? Maneuver specialist, etc.
The various 'mounted' options are considered 'meh' because people want a character viable in all fighting situations, not just while mounted.
So, even if you can do tons of damage, if most of your fighting takes place and you aren't on your mount, what good does it do?
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I would also point out that one of the options for a human fighter FC is to increase their defense +1 against any two Combat Manuvers. While not impressive, it can lead to a very strong defense against 2-4 manuvers if you want to give it up in lieu of hit points.
Also, Pathfinder has a Combat Manuver defense feat that gives you a flat +4 to your CMD. as far as offense...strength surge definitely gives barbs an edge on CM, but size advantages of enemies tend to rapidly trump such bonuses and become less and less useful at later levels.
===Aelryinth
Yes, you can further enchant them. You have to figure out what the cost of the bonus is, which can be difficult (like for celestial armor), but once you have it, you're good to go.
Heh, Rhino Hide once did double dmg on the charge.
==Aelryinth