My recent foray into chemistry has brought me to a greater understanding of how the real world works, but has made certain aspects of PFRPG harder to handwave away. For example, does the acid splash spell hurl a ball of sulfuric acid or nitric acid? Is acid fog a cloud of oleum or spiritus salis? Most breath weapons are probably hydrochloric acid simply due to biological compatibility, but a very wide range of potential acids could be at work when discussing living systems.
And now that I think about it, electricity damage and fire damage are both just heat, right?
(And in all fairness, the lightning bolt spell would probably deafen and temporarily blind everyone in the room, not just the two guys that were lined up right. Not as bad if you think of it that way.)
+1 to all of those.
But of higher priority, where are the washrooms in this world? I have the theory that because of the amazing feats and tricks these heroes pull off, and because of their supernatural healing abilities, there is only one solution: People in pathfinder have a 100% efficient digestive system. No waste, all energy conversion. What say you to that?
At the least, any acid damage is an extremely concentrated form of the acid in question...I do think sulfuric and hydrochloric make the most 'sense' in many cases, but in the case of magically summoned acid, it could really be anything.
As for electricity and fire damage...I think the distinguishing factor is the conductivity of the target--you could have cases where something conducts electricity well but resists fire damage or vice versa.
Deafening or blinding others is an interesting effect--personally, I'm all for making damage spells more interesting, so I fully approve of secondary effects like that.
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They are Fluoroantimonic acid.
But we can for sure cancel out hydrofluoric acid as being in an acid flask since it will eat through glass.
They are Fluoroantimonic acid.
But we can for sure cancel out hydrofluoric acid as being in an acid flask since it will eat through glass.
Whoa...that stuff's crazy.
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My recent foray into chemistry has brought me to a greater understanding of how the real world works, but has made certain aspects of PFRPG harder to handwave away.
Flap your hands harder or check your brain at the door. Drown it in alcohol first if you have to. You will loose either your hobby or your sanity if you head down that path.
For example, does the acid splash spell hurl a ball of sulfuric acid or nitric acid? Is acid fog a cloud of oleum or spiritus salis? Most breath weapons are probably hydrochloric acid simply due to biological compatibility, but a very wide range of potential acids could be at work when discussing living systems.
Its not nitric acid or hydrochloric acid its just acid. Bad burny liquid that does not fun things to living and unliving tissue.
And now that I think about it, electricity damage and fire damage are both just heat, right?
No to that one. Part of the damage from electricity is that it hyperstimilates your nerves , something fire apparently doesn't do.
(And in all fairness, the lightning bolt spell would probably deafen and temporarily blind everyone in the room, not just the two guys that were lined up right. Not as bad if you think of it that way.)
Its just a little lightning. Don't worry about it
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Yep. Try studying pharmacy and playing the Alchemist class at the same time. I think my fantasy-self died a little inside when I read Eternal Potion discovery. Eat your heart out, schedule-dependent PKPD!
Don't even get me started on Dilution discovery.
Yep. Try studying pharmacy and playing the Alchemist class at the same time. I think my fantasy-self died a little inside when I read Eternal Potion discovery. Eat your heart out, schedule-dependent PKPD!
Don't even get me started on Dilution discovery.
What's wrong with those?
I have decided in 3.5 that, if it is magically created acid (such as by a magic spell) then it is magic acid from the intersectin of the Plane of Water and the Positive Elemental Plane. It does not have a chemical formula that 20th Century scientists would recognize (although maybe by the end of the 21st Century, scientists will be able to appreciate the substances involved).
This avoids a lot of problems with trying to imagine the ethics of using a spell to splash something like flouroantimonic acid into somebody's face.
If it is caused by an acid (which I suppose could happen if the PC has Craft Alchemy or something) then it is whatever type of acid is used. After reading a magazine article about someone who picked up a rag steeped in hydroflouric acid, I've thought about using that in an adventure as a tool of a particulary nasty assassin's guild.
What's wrong with those?Yep. Try studying pharmacy and playing the Alchemist class at the same time. I think my fantasy-self died a little inside when I read Eternal Potion discovery. Eat your heart out, schedule-dependent PKPD!
Don't even get me started on Dilution discovery.
Pretty simple actually. Basically, 1 large dose =/= multiple maintenance doses. Still, there are some other ways of providing long duration of effect for certain drugs and formulations, but even then nobody wants a permanent effect.
Dilution is more of a common sense; if you dilute something, you reduce its concentration and therefore the maximal effect and the duration of effect. For whatever the reason, in PF world of chemistry, diluting something just lets you use it one more time for the same benefit.
Edit: it's kinda like a physicist watching Star Wars, if you may.
What's wrong with those?Yep. Try studying pharmacy and playing the Alchemist class at the same time. I think my fantasy-self died a little inside when I read Eternal Potion discovery. Eat your heart out, schedule-dependent PKPD!
Don't even get me started on Dilution discovery.
Pretty simple actually. Basically, 1 large dose =/= multiple maintenance doses. Still, there are some other ways of providing long duration of effect for certain drugs and formulations, but even then nobody wants a permanent effect.
Dilution is more of a common sense; if you dilute something, you reduce its concentration and therefore the maximal effect and the duration of effect. For whatever the reason, in PF world of chemistry, diluting something just lets you use it one more time for the same benefit.
Edit: it's kinda like a physicist watching Star Wars, if you may.
It isnt one large dose, it is an extremely low metabolizing one, as far as eternal goes you could say the alchemist added something that caused his system to start producing it.
The dilution one is probably a more concentrated dose requiring less liqued
Yeah, I should've explained myself better but I'm not trying to say it's "impossible" but if you start looking at a problem from multiple angles, a lot of them are quite... funny; thus the Physicist-Star Wars analogy.
Although, dilution's still really really awkward.
Edit: anyhow, a chemist who can make himself immune to poison, flat, could probably pull off all the "impossible" tricks I suppose.
What kind of force is a magic missile? Gravitational? Electro-weak? Strong nuclear? :P
Magic Missile is Evocation force, just like it says on the tin. Scientists on Earth just haven't discovered this force yet.
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We are making head way on discovering the evocation force. We already discovered what is responsible for all fire spells. Phlogiston!
What kind of force is a magic missile? Gravitational? Electro-weak? Strong nuclear? :PMagic Missile is Evocation force, just like it says on the tin. Scientists on Earth just haven't discovered this force yet.
Back in the 80s, I was working on a whole theory of "Tau" forces, which are the ones that 20th century scientists knew about, and "Mu" forces, which are the ones that magic-users in Dungeons and Dragons used to cast their spells.
For a while I even toyed with the idea of making gravity a "Mu" force rather than a "Tau" force, which would make it harder for scientists to come up with a theory to unify the physical forces.
Then in the 90s I came up with a scenario in which a chemical engineer finds scientific proof that astrology works, and how it works, thereby opening the study of "Mu" forces to 21st Century science.
Then when the Macho Women with Guns setting came out, I thought of an idea that scientists in that setting knew that there was an arcane force that surrounded Earth, and a "faith" force that permeated the whole solar system.
Thats why it's always a bad idea to bring ream world science into role-play...
(what's the damage if you fly with the fly spell right into a wall?^^)
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See. This is why I tell my players to not think about DND 3.x too hard. You just run into a wall which is the insane way we are expected to believe a world functions.
To be fair, it's not 3rd edition that's the problem. It's not even D&D that's the problem. It's that fantasy and reality aren't the same thing in the sense that apples and rototillers aren't the same thing.
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Its because strong bases can also burn and destroy skin. So they are rolled up into acid splash.
The answer to all your questions is MAGIC!
Why does the lightning bolt not deafen? MAGIC!
What kind of acid do acid spells use? MAGIC! acid
Mixing reality and D&D is just going to end with terrible house rules. Let it go Jake its MAGIC!town.
The PF world is based on something more like Arestotelian physics than 20th century earth physics and chemistry. There's something like the planes, and four of these are of the four elements. It's not unlikely that these elements play a vital part in the existence of the material plane, or at least the world PF plays in. As such, there's something like PURE acid, which likely is what the magic calls upon. It physically interacts with the world in the way the rules state.
From that we can tacitly conclude the Core Rulebook is in fact a tome of physics.
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They are Fluoroantimonic acid.
But we can for sure cancel out hydrofluoric acid as being in an acid flask since it will eat through glass.
That actually, oddly, came up in last week's game. Tons of permanent Acid Fogs had been in this place for many, many years and eaten away at almost everything.
"Are there potions in this room?""...does acid eat through glass?"
"Only if it's not hydroflouric acid."
EDIT: Also, this thread is hilarious :)
The PF world is based on something more like Arestotelian physics than 20th century earth physics and chemistry. There's something like the planes, and four of these are of the four elements. It's not unlikely that these elements play a vital part in the existence of the material plane, or at least the world PF plays in. As such, there's something like PURE acid, which likely is what the magic calls upon. It physically interacts with the world in the way the rules state.
From that we can tacitly conclude the Core Rulebook is in fact a tome of physics.
+1 to that.
I also think that the alchemist is a bit funny. As per his description, his extracts, bombs, mutagen and potions are all based of magic. He might as well be mixing kool-aid.
What kind of force is a magic missile? Gravitational? Electro-weak? Strong nuclear? :P
a contact force. aka released kinetic energy.
My recent foray into chemistry has brought me to a greater understanding of how the real world works, but has made certain aspects of PFRPG harder to handwave away. For example, does the acid splash spell hurl a ball of sulfuric acid or nitric acid?It's magic acid. Your college chemistry books go in the same place as my books on nuclear physics...anywhere but my table.
Answer to the above question: it's MAGIC acid. that's why it does it's job and poofs away when the spell duration ends. I hate obsessive chemistry majors at my table. they're the folks that go around trying to claim that a bag of flour is high explosive.
If the notion really upsets you... play D20 Modern. at least you have an excuse to hassle your poor suffering GM.
I am the GM in most of my games, and 'magic acid' is actually a thing. It got its name when it dissolved a candle (mostly made of hydrocarbons) which normal acids can't do.
Also, fluoroantimonic acid would explode the second it was conjured, since it protonates things like nitrogen, oxygen, and water.I'm gonna go with my gut and say that most acid damage is from sulfuric acid. That's the nastiest one besides hydrofluoric (which is actually a weak acid that doesn't fully ionize, but is a gas that's soluble in water and gives you fluoride poisoning resulting in bone necrosis. More than a few square inches of burn and you're a goner, low ionization or not.)
Flour and sawdust ARE explosive, but it takes special circumstances to make them so. That's why smoking or lighting a candle in a medieval sawmill could blow the whole thing up. But 'gust of wind + spark' isn't a reliable way to set off a dust explosion. Hate to say this to a nuclear physicist, but either you're exaggerating for dramatic effect or your science is incomplete. Boards being boards I'm leaning toward the former, but the flaw could also lie with the player trying to make bombs out of flour (which is a low explosive, not a high explosive.)
The acid thing does bug me, I hate how it's tied to Earth magic. Seems very contrived. They could've left Earth magic like they do Air magic, which also lacks an energy and is prone to being given a cold descriptor, which is just as contrived.
Air and Earth should've been categories for a much more specific set of spells. I do feel there isn't much Air or Earth devastation magic. Toph from Avatar: Last Airbender showcases so many abilities that would make great Earth spells. What's cool is Air and Earth magic can deal all sorts of piercing, bludgeon or slashing damage.
But back on the acid magic, yeah, the way I see it is it's different types of acid or maybe a particular form of acid for each spell. Clearly more powerful strains or more concentrated forms of acid the stronger the spell or the more damage it deals. But I try not to worry about much else.
You could always go with the big 6 acids:
1) Perchloric (HClO4)
2) Sulfuric (H2SO4)
3) Hydroiodic (HI)
4) Hydrobromic (HBr)
5) Hydrochloric (HCl)
6) Nitric (HNO3)
But really,who'd know about this but a few sages, alchemists, and wizards?
And this leaves out superacids and some more obscure Lewis and Bronsted acids.
What kind of force is a magic missile? Gravitational? Electro-weak? Strong nuclear? :Pa contact force. aka released kinetic energy.
All contact forces are electromagnetic forces. Not being able to see the electrons makes this difficult to fully understand.
But if its subject to spell resistance, I have no problem handwaving it. I just have a problem with acid because it really is a case of over-simplifying.
However, the absolutely tiny number of acid spells in core PF makes this largely a nonissue.
Why I actually like mixing science butter in the magic chocolate.......because, now there's a crazy ass gnome inventer dude with a laboratory, trying to come up with sodium hydroxide ablative armor bricks for kooks going after a black dragon.
And base elementals running around causing havoc, and burning skin and stuff......
And the Xaositects want the stuff. Why?
'splosions are kewl.
Dilution is more of a common sense; if you dilute something, you reduce its concentration and therefore the maximal effect and the duration of effect. For whatever the reason, in PF world of chemistry, diluting something just lets you use it one more time for the same benefit.
Alas, this isn't as common sense as you'd think. Just look at how many people believe Homeopathic dilutions actually do something more than a drink of water and the placebo effect.
Edit: added text in italics, for fairness' sake. :)
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There once was an alchemist, but now he is no more. For what he thought was H2O was S2HO4
"It's like, air. And water. You can't see it, but we can; water for some reason turns INTO air, floats up into the sky, then thickens into clouds and falls as rain. Really horrifying......
and yet, it's its own element. So,.....why not metal, for that matter? I think the united physickal theory of prime realities, i.e. that everything is made up of FOUR elements, is a tad bit off. Although,....it requires an invocation UNTO elementalus."
One of the Fire Sultan's Viziers, making idle small talk...
oh,....and.....
SOMETHING'S WONG NO TEH INTENETZZ!!!
Thats why it's always a bad idea to bring ream world science into role-play...
(what's the damage if you fly with the fly spell right into a wall?^^)
I like mixing science and fantasy, or at least considering how the two would interplay. I get lots of ideas that way.
One thing I'd like to do is make an "Atomic Steampunk" setting, which is like a steampunk setting, only with nuclear technology. I have the idea of advancing Iron Kingdoms about 400 years past what the books describe, when the various nations invent nuclear weapons, people ride around on motorcycles and stuff, the Cyressians have some really neat equipment, and the Cryxians are really nasty because they have no qualms about putting a nuclear reactor inside a giant warjack knowing that if they are damaged in combat, the reactor is liable to be exposed to air and burn, spreading radioactive ash all over the place.
The trick is to try to do this in a smooth way. The way Piers Anthony handles it in his novels, especially the Incarnations of Immortality, is kind of clunky, with "magicons" and all. I try to avoid getting that specific, or applying actual science theories to magic where it probably does not work. But I like the way Fred Saberhagen handled it in Empire of the East, where science and magic interacted, sometimes in ways you wouldn't expect.
They are Fluoroantimonic acid.
But we can for sure cancel out hydrofluoric acid as being in an acid flask since it will eat through glass.
It's magic acid there's even an entry in wikipedia about it
What's wrong with those?Yep. Try studying pharmacy and playing the Alchemist class at the same time. I think my fantasy-self died a little inside when I read Eternal Potion discovery. Eat your heart out, schedule-dependent PKPD!
Don't even get me started on Dilution discovery.
Pretty simple actually. Basically, 1 large dose =/= multiple maintenance doses. Still, there are some other ways of providing long duration of effect for certain drugs and formulations, but even then nobody wants a permanent effect.
Dilution is more of a common sense; if you dilute something, you reduce its concentration and therefore the maximal effect and the duration of effect. For whatever the reason, in PF world of chemistry, diluting something just lets you use it one more time for the same benefit.
Edit: it's kinda like a physicist watching Star Wars, if you may.
The joke is that in a world where an ointment can raise a dead body as a walking skeleton (Oil of Animate Dead from FR) and gulp of strangely refined tree sap can make your skin temporarily grow bark in less than 6 seconds to protect you and then after a while it sheds it you are worried about reactions and metabolism? :)
If it bothers you please try to think about it in terms of imperfection. This isn't modern age of chemistry where you put precisely weighted amount of reagents to achieve desired reaction and an exact amount of product. It's an age of alchemy, where you try to put ground sulphur or powdered sulpur in kettle with cow piss and charcoal powder and try different boiling time and temperatures to see whether it won't produce gold.
You know that you can put too much of this and that in a reaction without really achieving anything because the substance has nothing to react with. The receipts with which the potions are created are not devised by an expert who knew how much of what to put in it, but rather written down by the first man to discover what to drink to achieve desired effec without poisoning himself and then transcribed and copied for decades or even centuries. Or perhaps they were intentionaltely written with with excess ingredients so that one can be sure that he achieves the result with reagents of different composition. Remember that the alchemist usually works with plants clay or ores, which can contain varying concentrations of the reagent (the rest actually being balast). The alchemists often didn't even know what part of the ingredient was the reagent.
Dilution discovery could really just be a deeper understanding of the reactions going on. Not perfect, but still way above the usual. He can tell after some simple test what receipt was probably used. There can be about three or five magical traditions which use about the same recepies over and over using locally available ingredients in ammouts that even the less apt students can manipulate with - don't get me wrong, these are meant to be commercially useable that want an assured result, no experiments. It can than be easy to tell how the potion was made, what contents it can contain and how to dillute it while it maintains effectivity. For there is magic, that can be split in there.
Eternal potion? The magic can really be keyed to a set of reagents, which may perhaps be kept in body by drinking some sort of tea or swallowing a spoon of clay and a few bugs to keep concentrations of the things that are secreted out by the body. You need the potion to make the effect take hold in the body, but then you cust maintain what keeps it.
Alchemists also have their own magic reservoir. They may not be able to channel it via spells, but they can put it in the potions. So they may achieve any of these effects by manipulating this internal magic as well.
EDIT: I'm not even mentioning higher mystical aspects of alchemy, consulting the spirits, conducting the reaction at correct time when propper cojunctions of the stars are favourable to your undertaking and so on.
In the other words - don't let your knowledge about chemistry limit you. Use it creatively to echant your game.
As a Chemistry uh... Major? Graduate? Someone who did Chemistry in college, lets go with that. mM english fails me, stupid second language...
Ahem, I would say to stop being silly and don't overthink too much. If you're wondering what kind of acid it is, how they break conservation of mass and other science facts, just repeat to yourself "It's just a game, I should really just relax." Doesn't fit the melody but I'm not a Music... whatever.
Also pothole to TvTropes. Sorry.
it is normal to tantalize with bringing our fantasies to "reality" but in all truth, our world does not function in the PFRPG way. RPGs are at best a simplification of a narrative situation. We have created rules to ensure consistency and congruence. For example "cold" is not an energy but the effect of heat loss. For decades science have pondered "cold elecro-conductivity" yet this is quite impossible. Since loss of heat produces loss of movement by the electrons, thus less conduction...
insert words of awesomeness here
Preach on, brother!
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If you want to understand the world presented by the D&D rules set, especially in 3.5/PFRD, you'll be better served reading things like The Magician's Companion than any science text.
Fantasy worlds are ruled by metaphysics, not physics. There aren't 118 elements in Golarion. There are four: air, earth, fire, water. So steel isn't an alloy of iron and carbon, steel is elemental earth tempered by elemental fire to produce a rarefied earth. This is why magic can impart the spiritual essence of steel into glass, creating glassteel, or into wood, creating ironwood. Because this is not physics, its metaphysics.
Chemistry does not work in Golarion. A chemist transported to Golarion would go mad if he could not change his entire worldview. In Golarion the medieval alchemists were right, and the world functions as the result of elemental interactions guided on a spiritual plane by the actions of gods, angels and devils.
Same goes for physics. Gravity isn't a function of mass, it's a function of the gods' will that stuff not float all over the place. Which is why a magician can master incantations and gestures that allow him to slip free from the bond's of gravity, and why a ninety foot long dragon that weighs ten tons can fly on wings that span only sixty feet.
Just go with it.
My recent foray into chemistry has brought me to a greater understanding of how the real world works, but has made certain aspects of PFRPG harder to handwave away. For example, does the acid splash spell hurl a ball of sulfuric acid or nitric acid? Is acid fog a cloud of oleum or spiritus salis? Most breath weapons are probably hydrochloric acid simply due to biological compatibility, but a very wide range of potential acids could be at work when discussing living systems.
-Acid damage, put simply, is CHEMICAL damage.
The way i see it, basically, any time a chemical reaction occurs that isnt Fire damage, or poison, assume its acid damage.And now that I think about it, electricity damage and fire damage are both just heat, right?
-Electricity damage is damage caused by conductivity. It does (slightly) different things than fire damage would, and interacts with the environment in different ways, so the distinction is useful.
-Sonic is any damage caused by vibration within the structure.-Fire damage doesn't just cover flames, it also covers focused heat, or friction.
-Cold damage isn't just external environmental temperature damage, it also covers any loss of heat, or some types of energy drain. A sort of Entropic damage.
The types of energy damage are just like the types of physical damage. Bludgeoning, slashing and piercing can be caused by any number of things, and the actual cause doesnt do anything but dictate the damage type. You just categorize the damage into where it fits best.
If you want to understand the world presented by the D&D rules set, especially in 3.5/PFRD, you'll be better served reading things like The Magician's Companion than any science text.
Fantasy worlds are ruled by metaphysics, not physics. There aren't 118 elements in Golarion. There are four: air, earth, fire, water. So steel isn't an alloy of iron and carbon, steel is elemental earth tempered by elemental fire to produce a rarefied earth. This is why magic can impart the spiritual essence of steel into glass, creating glassteel, or into wood, creating ironwood. Because this is not physics, its metaphysics.
Chemistry does not work in Golarion. A chemist transported to Golarion would go mad if he could not change his entire worldview. In Golarion the medieval alchemists were right, and the world functions as the result of elemental interactions guided on a spiritual plane by the actions of gods, angels and devils.
Same goes for physics. Gravity isn't a function of mass, it's a function of the gods' will that stuff not float all over the place. Which is why a magician can master incantations and gestures that allow him to slip free from the bond's of gravity, and why a ninety foot long dragon that weighs ten tons can fly on wings that span only sixty feet.
Just go with it.
All pseudo fantasy scientists take note. +1