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So, in the PCGen mailing list it came up about if a deity's favored weapon is a bastard sword, does the cleric get Martial Weapon Bastard Sword, or Exotic Weapon Bastard Sword?
The RAW just says "Clerics are proficient with their deity's favored weapon" which in the case of like a chakram or such that is ONLY Exotic, easy... but what about something that is martial and exotic, like the bastard sword? You get both versions of the weapon's feat, or just the martial one?
So, in the PCGen mailing list it came up about if a deity's favored weapon is a bastard sword, does the cleric get Martial Weapon Bastard Sword, or Exotic Weapon Bastard Sword?
The RAW just says "Clerics are proficient with their deity's favored weapon" which in the case of like a chakram or such that is ONLY Exotic, easy... but what about something that is martial and exotic, like the bastard sword? You get both versions of the weapon's feat, or just the martial one?
Personally, I'd assume that the cleric in question would receive the Exotic Weapon Proficiency; if all clerics are proficient in their deity's (religion's) favored weapon, I'd imagine they'd be trained how to use it well enough. You do have a point, though . . . according to RAW, it could go either way (although I have a feeling that RAI are for the Exotic proficiency).
Now, along similar lines: should a cleric who's favored weapon is "unarmed strike" (clerics of Irori, for example) get nothing (since all PCs are proficient with that), or should they get Improved Unarmed Strike as a bonus feat? That's been one I've been thinking about lately . . .
Hope this helps! :)
I'd assume that the cleric with the bastard sword gets Martial Weapon Proficiency. In a sense, the Exotic Weapon Proficiency (bastard sword) has the Martial Proficiency as a prerequisite. Even fighters, rangers, paladins, and barbarians are only proficient in the sword to the first degree (martial), requiring additional training above and beyond their formidable skills to reach the full potential of the weapon (Exotic).
For those with unarmed strike, in our campaign they received Improved Unarmed Strike as the bonus feat. I never tried to hit anyone unarmed, but hey, I had it and it led to some interesting thought processes and design ideas.
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Now, along similar lines: should a cleric who's favored weapon is "unarmed strike" (clerics of Irori, for example) get nothing (since all PCs are proficient with that), or should they get Improved Unarmed Strike as a bonus feat? That's been one I've been thinking about lately .
I remember Sean Reynolds saying 'yes' to that, a while back, that clerics of Irori should get Improved Unarmed Strike as a bonus.
Now, along similar lines: should a cleric who's favored weapon is "unarmed strike" (clerics of Irori, for example) get nothing (since all PCs are proficient with that), or should they get Improved Unarmed Strike as a bonus feat? That's been one I've been thinking about lately .I remember Sean Reynolds saying 'yes' to that, a while back, that clerics of Irori should get Improved Unarmed Strike as a bonus.
Excellent! That makes a whole lot of sense . . .
So, in the PCGen mailing list it came up about if a deity's favored weapon is a bastard sword, does the cleric get Martial Weapon Bastard Sword, or Exotic Weapon Bastard Sword?
The RAW just says "Clerics are proficient with their deity's favored weapon" which in the case of like a chakram or such that is ONLY Exotic, easy... but what about something that is martial and exotic, like the bastard sword? You get both versions of the weapon's feat, or just the martial one?
I would interpret that as getting whatever proficiency gives you the most benefit with your weapon. Thematically it makes a big old pile of no-sense that your order has trained you in the use of a weapon specifically as a tool of their god and you'd have partial use of it. As stated, you get proficiency in that weapon, it doesn't limit what level of proficiency.
I'd assume that the cleric with the bastard sword gets Martial Weapon Proficiency. In a sense, the Exotic Weapon Proficiency (bastard sword) has the Martial Proficiency as a prerequisite. Even fighters, rangers, paladins, and barbarians are only proficient in the sword to the first degree (martial), requiring additional training above and beyond their formidable skills to reach the full potential of the weapon (Exotic).
That is a good point, Lathiira.
Well, thanks for all your input everyone, both sides of this have excellent arguments for their case... If you would, please mark the OP as a FAQ candidate so maybe we can get a official response from a dev on how they intend the rules to be read
Always assume it's exotic if it's an option. Here is my logic on that.
If the deity's favored weapon was Dueling Sword (exotic), or Orc Double Axe (Exotic), or Hand Crossbow (Exotic), then the cleric would gain the exotic weapon proficiency. So someone with Bastard Sword for their deity should gain the Exotic Weapon Proficiency with it.
Earlier, I saw an argument that Martial was a pre-req for Exotic...
Not sure how you can say that.
Exotic Weapon Proficiency (Combat)Choose one type of exotic weapon, such as the spiked chain or whip. You understand how to use that type of exotic weapon in combat, and can utilize any special tricks or qualities that exotic weapon might allow.
Prerequisite: Base attack bonus +1.
Benefit: You make attack rolls with the weapon normally.
Normal: A character who uses a weapon with which he is not proficient takes a –4 penalty on attack rolls.
Special: You can gain Exotic Weapon Proficiency multiple times. Each time you take the feat, it applies to a new type of exotic weapon.
The only prerequisite is BAB +1. A wizard could take Exotic Weapon Proficiency (Dueling Sword) as his 3rd level feat without ever having martial weapons (nobody would argue a wizard has any martial proficiency at all), yet he could wield that weapon just fine, because he has the feat. He could also take EWP (Bastard Sword) and use the bastard sword one handed, two-handed, as a back scratcher, whatever...
While I agree that it is up to the DM, look at his original question:
So, in the PCGen mailing list it came up about if a deity's favored weapon is a bastard sword, does the cleric get Martial Weapon Bastard Sword, or Exotic Weapon Bastard Sword?
With PCGen, and I am sure with Herolab and the other CharGen programs, you could code it either way. However, whatever the default behavior is supposed to be, is how it will be coded. So if one GM says Martial and one GM says Exotic, there is at least one GM that is going to be annoyed with the software since it did not code it "his" way. If a developer provided an official answer, that issue goes away.
-- david
Papa.DRB
PCGen moderator and data monkey
Well, thanks for all your input everyone, both sides of this have excellent arguments for their case... If you would, please mark the OP as a FAQ candidate so maybe we can get a official response from a dev on how they intend the rules to be readI don't think this question needs dev input. This should be decided by the GM and what they think makes sense in their world/game.
Personally if I was running the game I'll allow Exotic.
Always assume it's exotic if it's an option. Here is my logic on that.
If the deity's favored weapon was Dueling Sword (exotic), or Orc Double Axe (Exotic), or Hand Crossbow (Exotic), then the cleric would gain the exotic weapon proficiency. So someone with Bastard Sword for their deity should gain the Exotic Weapon Proficiency with it.
Earlier, I saw an argument that Martial was a pre-req for Exotic...
Not sure how you can say that.
The only prerequisite is BAB +1. A wizard could take Exotic Weapon Proficiency (Dueling Sword) as his 3rd level feat without ever having martial weapons (nobody would argue a wizard has any martial proficiency at all), yet he could wield that weapon just fine, because he has the feat. He could also take EWP (Bastard Sword) and use the bastard sword one handed, two-handed, as a back scratcher, whatever...
Exotic Weapon Proficiency (Combat)Choose one type of exotic weapon, such as the spiked chain or whip. You understand how to use that type of exotic weapon in combat, and can utilize any special tricks or qualities that exotic weapon might allow.
Prerequisite: Base attack bonus +1.
Benefit: You make attack rolls with the weapon normally.
Normal: A character who uses a weapon with which he is not proficient takes a –4 penalty on attack rolls.
Special: You can gain Exotic Weapon Proficiency multiple times. Each time you take the feat, it applies to a new type of exotic weapon.
While your arguments are logical and backed by the rules, there's a reason I started that sentence with 'In a sense'. Also, if the exotic weapon proficiency (bastard sword) allows both one-handed and two-handed use, it just about obsoletes the martial weapon proficiency. That, or shows a need for new proficiency rules :)
While I agree that it is up to the DM, look at his original question:
So, in the PCGen mailing list it came up about if a deity's favored weapon is a bastard sword, does the cleric get Martial Weapon Bastard Sword, or Exotic Weapon Bastard Sword?With PCGen, and I am sure with Herolab and the other CharGen programs, you could code it either way. However, whatever the default behavior is supposed to be, is how it will be coded. So if one GM says Martial and one GM says Exotic, there is at least one GM that is going to be annoyed with the software since it did not code it "his" way. If a developer provided an official answer, that issue goes away.
-- david
Papa.DRB
PCGen moderator and data monkey
Yeah, that's why I though this issue needed a look, to get an OFFICIAL ruling for PCGen (and others too) software to know which way to code it, then a house ruling can change that like any other official rule (which is another reason I like PCGen, it's fairly easy to learn the code to modify stuff for your house rules).
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While your arguments are logical and backed by the rules, there's a reason I started that sentence with 'In a sense'. Also, if the exotic weapon proficiency (bastard sword) allows both one-handed and two-handed use, it just about obsoletes the martial weapon proficiency. That, or shows a need for new proficiency rules :)
Bastard Swords are just an odd corner case. They are the only weapon (that I know of) that can be used as exotic or martial. You are correct in that nobody should ever take Weapon Proficiency (Bastard Sword). However, the martial aspect is important, as many classes get all martial weapons, or treat some weapons as martial (like elves and Elven Curve Blades).
As to new proficiency rules, yes, I agree the current one's suck. In my own games, we re-ruled that WP works off Fighter Weapon Groups. So, you take WP (Heavy Blades). We also ruled you needed WP (Group) to take EWP (Group). Taking EWP (Group) gets you all the exotic weapon proficiencies in that group. So, WP (Heavy Blades) gets you bastard sword (martial), long sword, great sword, etc. Then EWP (Heavy Blades) get's you one-handed bastard sword, Elven curve blade, etc. Same thing applies with Weapon Focus and Weapon Specialization, basically anything that's currently specific to one weapon is now specific to a group.
We also redid the classes just a bit. Full BAB classes get 4 weapon groups (and can take EWPs as part of that choice, so WP (Heavy Blades), WP (Light Blades) WP (Axes) EWP (Heavy Blades) would be valid for a fighter). 3/4 BAB classes get 2 weapon groups, and 1/2 BAB classes get 1 weapon group. Everyone get's Simple, and any racial weapons they get as normal.
It's working great, and means everyone has a better flexibility when they find random weapons in loot, rather than having to sell that +2 Holy Greatsword which doesn't work with their Weapon Focus (Longsword) build.
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The bastard sword is an exotic, one-handed weapon based on which table it's listed in, therefore I'd say the appropriate proficiency feat would be exotic. That is its true nature, even if you can use it martially (you can technically also use it as an improvised weapon).
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The bastard sword is an exotic, one-handed weapon based on which table it's listed in, therefore I'd say the appropriate proficiency feat would be exotic. That is its true nature, even if you can use it martially (you can technically also use it as an improvised weapon).
+1
The best way to look at the bastard sword is that it is an exotic weapon, that happens to allow martial use if you want to (albeit only two-handed).
That way if something states that it gives proficiency with baster sword, it basically gives the feat "Exotic Weapon Proficiency (Bastard Sword)".
The bastard sword is an exotic, one-handed weapon based on which table it's listed in, therefore I'd say the appropriate proficiency feat would be exotic. That is its true nature, even if you can use it martially (you can technically also use it as an improvised weapon).+1
The best way to look at the bastard sword is that it is an exotic weapon, that happens to allow martial use if you want to (albeit only two-handed).
That way if something states that it gives proficiency with baster sword, it basically gives the feat "Exotic Weapon Proficiency (Bastard Sword)".
I'm inclined to look at the the opposite way. It's a martial weapon that can be used in an exotic way.
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Technically, Martial Weapon Proficiency (bastard sword) doesn't even exist as a feat you can take.
You either have martial weapon proficiency from your class, in which case the bastard sword is treated as a two-handed martial weapon (a property of the weapon itself), or you take Exotic Weapon Proficiency, in which case you can use it one- or two-handed at your leisure.
It's simple really. The bastard sword is never a martial weapon. It is a one-handed exotic weapon with a special property that allows certain characters limited use.
Knowing this, I'd say free proficiency in it, as described by the OP, means that you can wield it one- or two-handed just fine.
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You know, reading through this thread I was thinking: "You get a feat to spend on proficiency with your deity's favorite weapon. If you want to choose to buy it as martial rather than exotic (since both cost the same--one feat) then that's your dumb decision."
Then someone had to go and point out that Exotic Weapon Proficiency has a requirement of +1 BAB. That being the case, a 1st level cleric can't take it, so it would have to be martial only.
On the other hand, rogues get proficiency in the exotic hand crossbow at 1st level without having a +1 BAB, so there's precedent for making exceptions when the proficiency is a class feature. So I guess I'm back to my original position: it would indeed count as an exotic proficiency.
I'm inclined to look at the the opposite way. It's a martial weapon that can be used in an exotic way.The bastard sword is an exotic, one-handed weapon based on which table it's listed in, therefore I'd say the appropriate proficiency feat would be exotic. That is its true nature, even if you can use it martially (you can technically also use it as an improvised weapon).+1
The best way to look at the bastard sword is that it is an exotic weapon, that happens to allow martial use if you want to (albeit only two-handed).
That way if something states that it gives proficiency with baster sword, it basically gives the feat "Exotic Weapon Proficiency (Bastard Sword)".
I'm curious what your inclination is based on. Mine's based on the table they put the weapon in when both could have been appropriate.
Had I written the bastard sword text, I would have said:
"A bastard sword is about 4 feet in length. A characters who is proficient with the greatsword can use a bastard sword two-handed without the normal –4 penalty on attack rolls."
(That ends all the complications of being both martial and exotic, while leaving the core intended behavior—everybody proficient with all martial weapons can use it two-handed—intact.)
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Technically Clerics are proficient with their Deity's Weapon as a Class Bonus not with a feat.
Correctly assumed in previous posts a Cleric gets to learn really well how to use this weapon, in this case a Bastard Sword.
So yes you can use it in one hand as if having the Exotic Weapon Proficiency.
You don't have to be also "Martially Proficient" with it in order to use it with two hands since the weapon designation rules regarding one handed melee weapons do not mention any penalty for using it with two hands.
"One-Handed: A one-handed weapon can be used in either the primary hand or the off hand. Add the wielder’s Strength bonus to damage rolls for melee attacks with a one-handed weapon if it’s used in the primary hand, or 1/2 his Strength bonus if it’s used in the off hand.
If a one-handed weapon is wielded with two hands during melee combat, add 1-1/2 times the character’s Strength bonus to damage rolls."
I'm inclined to look at the the opposite way. It's a martial weapon that can be used in an exotic way.
You can look at it any way you like, of course, but both the weapon table and the description of bastard swords state, quite clearly, that the bastard sword is an exotic weapon.
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On the same vein:
Achaekek
Favored Weapon Sawtooth sabre
The sawtooth sabre’s blade is curved like a normal sabre, but instead of a straight edge, the cutting edge is serrated, allowing deeper wounds. This grisly weapon weighs only 2 pounds, another plus for an assassin trying to sneak into and out of a guarded area.
The sawtooth sabre is difficult to master - although those untrained in its subtleties fare well enough by simply wielding it as they would a longsword - but its light weight allows it to be wielded with finesse rather than brute strength. [exotic weapon proficiency]
For me a cleric of Achaekek would know how to use the weapon as an exotic weapon (so using it as a finesse weapon) but, unless he know how to use martial weapons, he would have the non weapon proficency if wielding it as a longsword.
Similarly, a cleric with a bastard sword as a favored weapons know how to use it single handedly [exotic weapon proficency] but when using it as martial weapon he suffer from the non weapon proficency [i.e. using strength for his bonus to hit].
They don't get 2 different proficency for free.
On the same vein:
Achaekek
Favored Weapon Sawtooth sabreThe sawtooth sabre’s blade is curved like a normal sabre, but instead of a straight edge, the cutting edge is serrated, allowing deeper wounds. This grisly weapon weighs only 2 pounds, another plus for an assassin trying to sneak into and out of a guarded area.
The sawtooth sabre is difficult to master - although those untrained in its subtleties fare well enough by simply wielding it as they would a longsword - but its light weight allows it to be wielded with finesse rather than brute strength. [exotic weapon proficiency]
For me a cleric of Achaekek would know how to use the weapon as an exotic weapon (so using it as a finesse weapon) but, unless he know how to use martial weapons, he would have the non weapon proficency if wielding it as a longsword.
Similarly, a cleric with a bastard sword as a favored weapons know how to use it single handedly [exotic weapon proficency] but when using it as martial weapon he suffer from the non weapon proficency [i.e. using strength for his bonus to hit].
They don't get 2 different proficency for free.
Does somebody wielding a long sword two-handed need a different prof to do so? Or suffer the non-prof penalty if doing so?
Similarly, a cleric with a bastard sword as a favored weapons know how to use it single handedly [exotic weapon proficency] but when using it as martial weapon he suffer from the non weapon proficency [i.e. using strength for his bonus to hit].
Anyone can wield a one-handed weapon in two hands without penalty. Why would you create a unique penalty for anyone picking up EWP (bastard sword)? Isn't the EWP penalty enough? :p
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Anyone can wield a one-handed weapon in two hands without penalty. Why would you create a unique penalty for anyone picking up EWP (bastard sword)? Isn't the EWP penalty enough? :p
Similarly, a cleric with a bastard sword as a favored weapons know how to use it single handedly [exotic weapon proficiency] but when using it as martial weapon he suffer from the non weapon proficiency[i.e. using strength for his bonus to hit]. [Editing error, this piece is about the sawtooth sabre]
Not really.
- Anyone with a martial weapon proficiency can wield a one handed martial weapon one or two handed without penalties.- someone that hasn't the martial weapon proficiency wield a martial weapon with one or 2 hand at a -4 to attack roll.
It is not how many hands you use, but if you are proficenty with the martial weapon or not.
The bastard sword situation is borderline so it can be ruled both ways. One or two handed it always use your strength as a to hit modifier.
The sawtooth sabre use dexterity if you have the exotic weapon proficiency and strength if you have the martial weapons proficiency.
One proficiency don't imply the other.
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On the same vein:
Achaekek
Favored Weapon Sawtooth sabreThe sawtooth sabre’s blade is curved like a normal sabre, but instead of a straight edge, the cutting edge is serrated, allowing deeper wounds. This grisly weapon weighs only 2 pounds, another plus for an assassin trying to sneak into and out of a guarded area.
The sawtooth sabre is difficult to master - although those untrained in its subtleties fare well enough by simply wielding it as they would a longsword - but its light weight allows it to be wielded with finesse rather than brute strength. [exotic weapon proficiency]
For me a cleric of Achaekek would know how to use the weapon as an exotic weapon (so using it as a finesse weapon) but, unless he know how to use martial weapons, he would have the non weapon proficency if wielding it as a longsword.
Similarly, a cleric with a bastard sword as a favored weapons know how to use it single handedly [exotic weapon proficency] but when using it as martial weapon he suffer from the non weapon proficency [i.e. using strength for his bonus to hit].
They don't get 2 different proficency for free.
Nice example m8, so here's the fact:
A Sawtooth Sabre is effectively a serrated and lighter version of a Longsword. Meaning that it deals 1d8+STR damage, 19-20x2 on crit.
What makes it exotic "considering the fact that it is lighter than a Longsword" is its capability to be used with Weapon Finesse (which of course requires you to possess the proper feat in order to use it so)
Yet your Cleric can use the weapon normally because he is proficient with it regardless if he possesses weapon finesse or not.
If he does he can use his Dexterity modifier on attack rolls with it, if not he uses it normally as if using a Longsword variant without any penalty (because he is proficient in using it but without a bonus since he doesn't have weapon finesse)
RPG Superstar 2009 Top 32, 2010 Top 8
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The sawtooth sabre use dexterity if you have the exotic weapon proficiency and strength if you have the martial weapons proficiency.
One proficiency don't imply the other.
"Allows" not "Requires"
If a Strength based fighter is using a Saw Toothed Sabre (say he uses it as a trophy he took off of a RMA, Like Amri and her giant sword) he's going to burn the EWP to be able to get weapon focus (pre-req, proficient in weapon) and that feat chain. the 20 Str, 14 Dex fighter isn't going to be limited to his dex bonus just because he is 'allowed' to finess it.
Heck, using your logic he's going to have no bonus to hit if he doesn't take weapon finesse.
The bastard sword is an exotic, one-handed weapon based on which table it's listed in, therefore I'd say the appropriate proficiency feat would be exotic. That is its true nature, even if you can use it martially (you can technically also use it as an improvised weapon).
+1 - I quite agree.
And, as said, this is no different than an Elven God, for instance, having the Curve Blade as his favoured weapon -- you get the Exotic Proficiency, and you're done.
And, before someone asks, I would say the same is true for the Dwarven Waraxe. :)
So nothing official on this yet :(
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So nothing official on this yet :(
Why should there be? There is not such animal as Martial proficiency: Bastard sword. The weapon is not a Martial weapon, it is an exotic weapon.
End of story.
Yep. It's never a martial weapon. It's an exotic weapon with a special rule allowing use without penalty in a particular circumstance by characters proficient in martial weapons.
{. . .}
As to new proficiency rules, yes, I agree the current one's suck. In my own games, we re-ruled that WP works off Fighter Weapon Groups. So, you take WP (Heavy Blades). We also ruled you needed WP (Group) to take EWP (Group). Taking EWP (Group) gets you all the exotic weapon proficiencies in that group. So, WP (Heavy Blades) gets you bastard sword (martial), long sword, great sword, etc. Then EWP (Heavy Blades) get's you one-handed bastard sword, Elven curve blade, etc. Same thing applies with Weapon Focus and Weapon Specialization, basically anything that's currently specific to one weapon is now specific to a group.We also redid the classes just a bit. Full BAB classes get 4 weapon groups (and can take EWPs as part of that choice, so WP (Heavy Blades), WP (Light Blades) WP (Axes) EWP (Heavy Blades) would be valid for a fighter). 3/4 BAB classes get 2 weapon groups, and 1/2 BAB classes get 1 weapon group. Everyone get's Simple, and any racial weapons they get as normal.
It's working great, and means everyone has a better flexibility when they find random weapons in loot, rather than having to sell that +2 Holy Greatsword which doesn't work with their Weapon Focus (Longsword) build.
Some combination of this with a modified version of the Kirthfinder weapon rules would be really nice. In Kirthfinder, you can have Simple, Martial, or Exotic Proficiency with any weapon (this starts on page 3 of the Equipment document), and gain more benefits as you get higher proficiency, even with weapons that can be used with Simple proficiency. Kirthfinder does specify that Clerics gain Martial Proficiency with their deities' favored weapon (I would have put Exotic Proficiency, but at least it's consistent), as well as Martial Proficiency with Bludgeons, Hammers, and Shields, and Simple Proficiency with Slings (they seem to be trying to recapture some of the 1st Edition AD&D flavor).
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Yay! Necromancy week continues!
I thought we were on week 2 of Necromancy Week with all these threads. Did onyx go on sale or something?
There's a thread or two about things like that already, maybe they'll get raised too.
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Apparently there's been a clearance.Yay! Necromancy week continues!I thought we were on week 2 of Necromancy Week with all these threads. Did onyx go on sale or something?
Tammy buys in bulk.
If you buy Onyx at 20% off (thus spending only 20gp/each), does it still qualify as "25gp of Onyx" for material components?
Let us not go there tis a silly place.
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If you buy Onyx at 20% off (thus spending only 20gp/each), does it still qualify as "25gp of Onyx" for material components?Well if they are 20% off they are clearly not worth 25gp anymore so you now have to produce more onyx for the spell.
You do realize with that logic you can never use any treasure you find or steal as components since you didn't pay anything for it all?
See already getting silly. Next we will need a book of charts and math for determining fluctuation in spell component pricing in relation to the value of other goods sold by the PC's after looting it.
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This is why the Spell Component Guild is so vital to maintaining the magical integrity of the world.