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People get too tied up in the turn order of a round, and forget that a combat round is a simulation of a whole bunch of things happening at the same time. Your character isn't standing around like a statue when it isn't their turn, unless they happen to be paralyzed or petrified.
This, I think, is the strongest argument that any full round action, regardless of when it comes into effect, is subject to quicken.
RPG Superstar 2009 Top 32, 2010 Top 8
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How can you swallow a heart faster?
New Feat!
Prerequisite: Quicken Spell, questionable taste in men.
Effect Due to constant practice and training you are able to swallow things larger than can be believed. You may now use Quicken spell with any spell that requires you to swallow something.
Normal: You don't have hep-C.
More seriously, Eschew components?
The problem with treating the full round action spell casting (certain spells and special spontaneous castings) as 1 round spells is that the RAW specifically calls out that they are treated different.
Cast a SpellA spell that takes one round to cast is a full-round action. It comes into effect just before the beginning of your turn in the round after you began casting the spell. You then act normally after the spell is completed.
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When you begin a spell that takes 1 round or longer to cast, you must continue the invocations, gestures, and concentration from 1 round to just before your turn in the next round (at least). If you lose concentration after starting the spell and before it is complete, you lose the spell.
You only provoke attacks of opportunity when you begin casting a spell, even though you might continue casting for at least 1 full round. While casting a spell, you don't threaten any squares around you.
If the spell's normal casting time is a standard action, casting a metamagic version is a full-round action for a sorcerer or bard. (This isn't the same as a 1-round casting time.)
A bard or sorcerer casting an extended Hold Person would spend their full-round action, with the spell coming into effect immediately.
Anyone casting Enlarge Person would spend their full-round action, with the spell coming into effect when his turn comes up the next round.
That right there is a difference in "casting time". The effect occurs before anyone else gets to act vs the effect occurring after everyone else gets to act.
This is clearly not the same amount of "time", even (if not especially) in this pseudo simultaneity, and even though your "action" for the round is the same, the amount of time spent "casting" is longer.
The Hold Person spell allows you to make attacks of opportunity, for example.. you are clearly not casting the spell anymore, even though all your proactive actions for the round are taken.
This difference is what Quicken Spell is working with.
Contributor, RPG Superstar 2008 Top 6
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No one's disputing there's a difference in casting times. But all these casting times (standard, 1 full round metamagic, 1 round) are still not longer than 1 full-round action. The first casting time longer than 1 full-round action is a casting time of 2 rounds (which, conveniently, requires 2 full-round actions).
People get too tied up in the turn order of a round, and forget that a combat round is a simulation of a whole bunch of things happening at the same time. Your character isn't standing around like a statue when it isn't their turn, unless they happen to be paralyzed or petrified.
But that fact isn't written down. Instead we have this:
When the rules refer to a “full round”, they usually mean a span of time from a particular initiative count in one round to the same initiative count in the next round. Effects that last a certain number of rounds end just before the same initiative count that they began on.
No one's disputing there's a difference in casting times. But all these casting times (standard, 1 full round metamagic, 1 round) are still not longer than 1 full-round action. The first casting time longer than 1 full-round action is a casting time of 2 rounds (which, conveniently, requires 2 full-round actions).
See above, but you should acknowledge that changing the wording to "the spellcaster finishes the spell as a free action at the beginning of his next turn" would make absolutely no mechanical difference, except for invalidating your argument. I know the SRD/PRD were not written at that level of detail, there are a thousand examples where one simple fix would make everything clear.
You're still casting after your action (as proven by you being able to be interrupted, and giving up AoOs throughout the round). The casting time is 1 full round, > a full-round action.
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People get too tied up in the turn order of a round, and forget that a combat round is a simulation of a whole bunch of things happening at the same time. Your character isn't standing around like a statue when it isn't their turn, unless they happen to be paralyzed or petrified.But that fact isn't written down. Instead we have this:
** spoiler omitted ** This text would seem to indicate that the "full round" is longer than a character's actions.No one's disputing there's a difference in casting times. But all these casting times (standard, 1 full round metamagic, 1 round) are still not longer than 1 full-round action. The first casting time longer than 1 full-round action is a casting time of 2 rounds (which, conveniently, requires 2 full-round actions).See above, but you should acknowledge that changing the wording to "the spellcaster finishes the spell as a free action at the beginning of his next turn" would make absolutely no mechanical difference, except for invalidating your argument. I know the SRD/PRD were not written at that level of detail, there are a thousand examples where one simple fix would make everything clear.
You're still casting after your action (as proven by you being able to be interrupted, and giving up AoOs throughout the round). The casting time is 1 full round, > a full-round action.
From the "getting started" section of the PRD:
Round: Combat is measured in rounds. During an individual round, all creatures have a chance to take a turn to act, in order of initiative. A round represents 6 seconds in the game world.
a "full-round" is always 6 seconds. Not 6 seconds/initiative count (6 for 1 person, 12 seconds for 2 people,etc..).
So, during 1 round (6 seconds) all creatures in the combat act. There is no time period for a single count of initiative, only for rounds (6 seconds). Initiative is just to keep sanity for the players on what order things happen in that 6 second time slice.
No one's disputing there's a difference in casting times. But all these casting times (standard, 1 full round metamagic, 1 round) are still not longer than 1 full-round action. The first casting time longer than 1 full-round action is a casting time of 2 rounds (which, conveniently, requires 2 full-round actions).
Except that in one case (1 full round metamagic), the spell happens immediately and can only be stopped by someone with a readied action, and in the other, everyone else gets to try to stop you from casting (either because they're after you in this round, or before you in the next).
Also, in the full-round case, you're done casting the spell and so you are threatening the squares around you and can make AoO's (perhaps with the Touch spell you just cast) -- and in the 1 round case -- you're still casting the spell and don't threaten.
This seems like the same amount of time to you? Doesn't that sort of make the Quicken way more useful for some spells than others if you play that way (eg - in some cases, you can't stop a spell that everyone would have had a chance to do something about)?
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Contributor, RPG Superstar 2008 Top 6
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See above, but you should acknowledge that changing the wording to "the spellcaster finishes the spell as a free action at the beginning of his next turn" would make absolutely no mechanical difference, except for invalidating your argument.
Why would I acknolwedge that, when it isn't true?
If there's a bodak in the room, and I fail my save and die on my turn, it makes a lot of difference that the spell completed just before my turn began.
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Contributor, RPG Superstar 2008 Top 6
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This seems like the same amount of time to you?
In the very post you quoted, I said they don't take the same amount of time.
These possible casting times would all fit the requirement of taking no more than one full round to complete:
immediate action
swift action
move action (none exist that I know of)
standard action
full-round metamagic
1 round
I've always wondered how this argument gets past "A spell that takes 1 round to cast is a full-round action", but that's just me.
Why would I acknolwedge that, when it isn't true?
If there's a bodak in the room, and I fail my save and die on my turn, it makes a lot of difference that the spell completed just before my turn began.
Fine. Let's change it to "at the beginning of his next turn, before other 'beginning of turn effects' are resolved." Happy? I still feel that was a little petty.
I've always wondered how this argument gets past "A spell that takes 1 round to cast is a full-round action", but that's just me.
Mainly because the text goes further than that.
One more note:
You will not find text saying that a full-round action takes 6 seconds.
That would be silly. Consider a 1st level trip fighter (combat reflexes). He can trip once on his turn. He can trip four times (in addition) if opportunities are open, and take an immediate action as well. Do those AoO's really take no time at all, and the single attack take 6 seconds?
If I delay (waiting for other characters to act), does that really take no time at all?
No, full-round actions are a portion of the 6 seconds. It doesn't define what portion, but when you see the mechanics for things like 1-round casting times, it definitely makes that clear.
This seems like the same amount of time to you?In the very post you quoted, I said they don't take the same amount of time.
These possible casting times would all fit the requirement of taking no more than one full round to complete:
immediate action
swift action
move action (none exist that I know of)
standard action
full-round metamagic
1 roundI've always wondered how this argument gets past "A spell that takes 1 round to cast is a full-round action", but that's just me.
Because you're obviously not done the spell after the full-round action in Round 1 - because if you were, your spell could no longer be interrupted (certainly not interrupted by people going in Round 2!) and you could go back to being "ready" in terms of threatening the squares around you, etc, etc.
So far posters only found one spell out of hundreds that have a full round action as a casting time. Like I posted earlier based on the specifics of that spell I don't think it can be quickened at all.
Again, no. The vast majority of spells have a casting time of a full-round action. If you're a spontaneous spellcaster trying to, say, apply the Quicken Spell metamagic feat to it.
Arguing that the wording of Quicken has to include 1 round casting time spells, because there aren't any full-round casting time spells, is silly. The entire point of adding that sentence was to allow spontaneous spellcasters to use quicken spell at all.
Personally I think that the designers just neglected to update casting time wording to reflect the new wording on Quicken. Almost all of the one round or one full round casting spells don't look over powered at all even if it is allowed to be quickened. Come on a 5th level slot for enlarge person is in no way or shape OP.
Well, it sure makes Quicken far more powerful for some spells than others.
Unless you have a readied action (or I provoke an AoO), you can't stop me from casting magic missile. However, if I quicken it (+4 levels), I get to take a whole other standard or full-round action that round - which means I could cast a second spell. That's quite the benefit and allows me a whole lot of things I can do.
However, if I take a spell like Enlarge or Summon Monster, which normally gives everyone near me a whole set of actions (including, for people with higher initiative, their full round action in the following turn) in which to try to stop me from casting the spell and quicken it - I get not only the bonus of being able to cast 2 spells in a round, I *also* get a version of the spell that you can't stop me from casting... at the same +4 levels that got me the ability to still do a full-round action! What a bargain!
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Contributor, RPG Superstar 2008 Top 6
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Arguing that the wording of Quicken has to include 1 round casting time spells, because there aren't any full-round casting time spells, is silly. The entire point of adding that sentence was to allow spontaneous spellcasters to use quicken spell at all.
The wording for Quicken dates back to when the only spells with a full-round casting time that could have been quickened were 1 round casting time spells, since back in 3.5E spontaneously metamagiced spells could not be quickened.
So it's valid to point out that in the rules that were copy-pasted, the restriction on Quicken would have made no sense if you couldn't quicken 1 round casting time spells.
It is worth a FAQ answer and decision,
+1
A spell with a casting time of 1 round constitutes the longest possible full round action. As such, it is indeed quickenable. It's not longer than a full round, because if it were, it'd take a piece of your next action, and it doesn't.You are assuming casting time and action spent are the same thing. They aren't, and Quickened Metamagic is specifically calling out casting times, not the action used to cast the spell.I'm not assuming anything. I've thought about this issue a lot, not just in this discussion, and somewhere in my mail I have something like a two page examination of all the rules in question, along with various statements about full-round actions. This would all be back in the 3.5E days, so some of the discussion about action types is now gone, but suffice it to say, a full round action's supposed to consume all of your possible effort in a round, and casting a spell with a casting time of 1 round does exactly that.
People get too tied up in the turn order of a round, and forget that a combat round is a simulation of a whole bunch of things happening at the same time. Your character isn't standing around like a statue when it isn't their turn, unless they happen to be paralyzed or petrified.
Translation: eff the way the rules obviously and demonstrably work. I want this to be legal!
Actually meatrace since you can start a full round action with a standard action he's got a very valid point.
Since I actually read the messages, especially the dev messages, I feel very safe in saying that you can Quicken Enlarge Person. :)
The text of Quicken Spell should be updated from "a full-round action" to "1 full round". Then no more argument.
The text of Quicken Spell should be updated from "a full-round action" to "1 full round". Then no more argument.
No more argument now. The FAQ has been updated to indicate that yes, it's the type of action, not when the spell takes effect, that governs the interaction with Quicken.
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As Sean Renyold's posts. You can indeed cast an Quickened ENlarge person so bow to the great knowlege of Lyrax AKA the great mage Jordan
Lyrax was in COT with me and was run by Research who knows the rules as good as the DEV's and would have Corrected Lyrax if he tried to cast a spell incorectly. Both my Character and Max benifited many times for a Quicened Enlarge Person,
Sweet, quickened Summon Monster XI coming up!
Sweet, sweet FAQ.
So very true.
FAQ!
Can't say I'm particularly happy with the ruling, but I am VERY happy with having it clarified so as to be played the same way at every table. Thank you.
but I am VERY happy with having it clarified so as to be played the same way at every table.
Sorry, but I can't promise that. ;)