If you find yourself in a group where no character has the trapfinding ability or its equivalent, what are the best ways to deal with traps and locks? Without the magical component, is it worthwhile for another character to crank up disable device? Can the party survive until the arcane caster learns Knock? Does someone just need to bite the bullet and dip a level of Rogue? Any other good tricks of the trade?
Enter Barbarian Lockpick...greataxe
If the groups not geared toward stealth and sneakery then they're not...no use pretending
hire a footpad npc, maybe you can trust him, maybe not? interesting roleplaying opportunity? maybe he'll evolve into a cohort or a contact to the thieves guild or spy? who knows
If you find yourself in a group where no character has the trapfinding ability or its equivalent, what are the best ways to deal with traps and locks? Without the magical component, is it worthwhile for another character to crank up disable device? Can the party survive until the arcane caster learns Knock? Does someone just need to bite the bullet and dip a level of Rogue? Any other good tricks of the trade?
The trick that springs to mind first is the Urban Ranger Archetype - which gets trapfinding like a rogue. As far as I know, that is the only way around the finding magical traps issue.
In my campaign, there is no longer a PC rogue, so one of the other characters is cranking up his disable device. I had considered giving him a magic item to allow him to disable magical traps to a limited degree - because I hate the idea of an NPC rogue. But that feels overpowered, so I am probably not going to go that route.
How viable is "Hello, Mr. Barbarian"? I've always wondered if the big guy could really take that kind of abuse.
I do know about the Urban Ranger, also the Trapper archetype and both the Detective and Sandman versions of Bard, but would love to avoid having anyone dip if there are alternatives.
IIRC, Find Traps just doesn't function long enough to be particularly useful. Is there a way to make a ring or amulet giving the ability continuously? What would such a thing cost?
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I've played in quite a few games with no rogue and it hasn't been a problem so far. The important thing is to be able to spot traps, and plenty of classes have Perception as a class skill. Disarming is generally easier; often it's just a matter of triggering the trap from a distance (using Mage Hand, or a 10 ft pole, or Log the Timberrogue).
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How viable is "Hello, Mr. Barbarian"? I've always wondered if the big guy could really take that kind of abuse.
In my experience, Mr. Barbarian is a good stopgap trapfinder but he can't handle a steady stream of abuse. Mr. Heavily Armored Dwarf, on the other hand? He gets hit with the trap, but rarely takes damage from it.
The trick that springs to mind first is the Urban Ranger Archetype - which gets trapfinding like a rogue. As far as I know, that is the only way around the finding magical traps issue.Several of the Bard archetypes in the APG also gain the ability to disable magical traps.
Ahh thanks for the heads up. That shows you how often I look at what the Bard has to offer. I must learn to overcome my Bard bias.
How viable is "Hello, Mr. Barbarian"? I've always wondered if the big guy could really take that kind of abuse.
I do know about the Urban Ranger, also the Trapper archetype and both the Detective and Sandman versions of Bard, but would love to avoid having anyone dip if there are alternatives.
IIRC, Find Traps just doesn't function long enough to be particularly useful. Is there a way to make a ring or amulet giving the ability continuously? What would such a thing cost?
I don't know of many players would would be willing to throw their hit points at the magical traps, no matter how beefy they were. I would be like - "hey we had better find an NPC rogue soon", but that is just me.
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It's cheaper to by a few wands of cure light wounds for damage. Then it is to have a trap focused rogue in the group for most combats. The damage from traps is so much lower then the damage from combat that it's cheaper to set of the traps and heal the damage. Then it is to have a character that is ok at combat but can do traps. Over all effect is traps for the most part are not as threating as combat to characters. So most adventures with out a trap person is not a big deal. And as far as locks go there are Great Axe, Buring Hands, Knock, and a few other spells that will get you past even magic locks. Magic traps can be displed easyer then thay can be disabled.
Anyone can put ranks in Disable Device, likewise they can take skill focus. Alchemists even have Disable Device as a class skill. You can also put ranks in Perceptions and skill focus perception.
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Just because Rogues get BONUSES to something, doesn't mean they are the only ones who CAN do something.
The Summoner's Summon Monster ability is pretty useful when it comes to traps.
So is the Bard/Cleric/Sorcerer/Wizard Spell Summon Monster, or the Druid spell Summon Nature's Ally. Summon a Monster to trigger the trap, then move around it.
Doesn't help with opening trapped locks or chests though.
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The Summoner's Summon Monster ability is pretty useful when it comes to traps.So is the Bard/Cleric/Sorcerer/Wizard Spell Summon Monster, or the Druid spell Summon Nature's Ally. Summon a Monster to trigger the trap, then move around it.
Doesn't help with opening trapped locks or chests though.
If you can communicate with the creature, you can direct it not to attack, to attack particular enemies, or to perform other actions.
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Summon Monster [...] is pretty useful when it comes to traps.Doesn't help with opening trapped locks or chests though.If you can communicate with the creature, you can direct it not to attack, to attack particular enemies, or to perform other actions.
Y'don't really get a summonable that can pick a lock until summon monster IV at 7th level.
everyone can crank up disable device....not everyone got the trapfinding ability, so you can spot MAGIC traps.
Trapfinding no longer works like that in Pathfinder. Anyone can find a magic trap with the Perception skill. However, the Trapfinding ability is required to disable a magic trap with Disable Device.
Trapfinding no longer works like that in Pathfinder. Anyone can find a magic trap with the Perception skill. However, the Trapfinding ability is required to disable a magic trap with Disable Device.everyone can crank up disable device....not everyone got the trapfinding ability, so you can spot MAGIC traps.
Are you sure about that?
The last sentence of the spell spiked growth leads me to believe the opposite.PRD link to spiked growth.
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There is also 1 simple thing you can do: dont put any hard trap....thats it. If you had a team full of fighters, would you put a lot of wizards againts them? probably not. same thing here.What we have done in our game was pretty easy too: we "created" a character traits: disable device as a class skill (it was a bard) and give trapfinding. the bard was the one responsible for disabling the traps. yes its not "by the book" but it get the job done
I think not putting magical traps in the adventures is letting the players off too easy. Traps (magical and non) should be a big part of the game, especially in dungeons, or areas frequented by rogues. Even though there are no PC rogues in my campaign I think my players would be dissapointed if I simply avoided using magical traps.
I will probably go with a NPC rogue. I will take advantage of the roleplay opportunities this gives me as a voice in the party. Chances are the players will send a stealthy PC along with the NPC rogue - just in case.
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Then the spell wasn't converted to Pathfinder properly, or is an exception to the rule.
The rogues Trapfinding ability does not mention that it is needed to find magical traps, only to disable them. The Perception skill does not mention that only rogues can find magic traps. And the Perception and Disable Device DCs for traps on page 417 makes no mention of needing Trapfinding to find magic traps, only to disable them.
Compare that to 3.5: The Search skill specifically says only rogues can find magic traps. The Trapfinding ability was required to find traps with a Search DC higher than 20 (which included magic traps), and the section on finding traps specifically says that trapfinding is needed to find magic traps.
Everything in 3.5 that said Trapfinding was required to find magic traps was removed in Pathfinder. The only exceptions are the few spells (Like Spike Growth and Spike Stones) that specifically say a Rogue is needed. (Do note it doesn't say Trapfinding. It says Rogue.)
What we have done in our game was pretty easy too: we "created" a character traits: disable device as a class skill (it was a bard) and give trapfinding. the bard was the one responsible for disabling the traps. yes its not "by the book" but it get the job done
I like the idea of offering "trapfinding" as a trait, that is something I may consider since I am already allowing traits.
Lots of great discussion on this, thanks to all! I think it may be a matter of sending in the Barbarian, but letting him handle mechanical traps with some levels of disable device. Knowing that in PF, Magical traps can be found without trapfinding really eases my mind as well.
My barbarian doesn't have any problem with disabling traps with his face and unlocking doors with his feet. He does have good AC, good perception and more HP than any other two characters in the group. As long as the DM doesn't go too overboard with the traps, he can soak up the damage from a couple of traps.
Another thing is that there will never be traps that outright kill you or give huge penalties if you have the right kind of character group composition.
By that, I mean, if someone in the group has restoration, cure spells and lesser restoration, then you can just truck through pretty much every single trap and not really give a damn.
Also, 4-5 encounters per day and all that. A trap will always do like "20% of your resources" or such.
Also, 4-5 encounters per day and all that. A trap will always do like "20% of your resources" or such.
Hmmm, I hadn't really thought of traps as "encounters", but I guess they are. That's good perspective for me.
everyone can crank up disable device....not everyone got the trapfinding ability, so you can spot MAGIC traps.
/Shrugs...
Yeah, Not everyone can do Everything... Honestly I'm not too worried about MAGIC traps. In our games we've seen LOTS more 'Swarms' then we've seen Magic traps... Yet I don't see people complaining that the fighters and rogues don't have AoE abilities that can hurt them...
Not having a wizard/alchemist with just the right spells is a WHOLE lot more detrimental than not having a rogue... REALLY rather game breaking/broken in my mind.
/shudder...
I HATE swarms...
How viable is "Hello, Mr. Barbarian"? I've always wondered if the big guy could really take that kind of abuse.
I do know about the Urban Ranger, also the Trapper archetype and both the Detective and Sandman versions of Bard, but would love to avoid having anyone dip if there are alternatives.
IIRC, Find Traps just doesn't function long enough to be particularly useful. Is there a way to make a ring or amulet giving the ability continuously? What would such a thing cost?
By RAW: Spell Level (2) x Min Caster Level (3) x 2,000 x 2 = 24,000gp
However, as others have said - anyone can *find* a trap [with the exception of those two spells, apparently] -- the trick is being able to disable them (well, specifically, magical ones).
I find monks are good for sucking up traps. Excellent saves across the board, the ability to deflect projectiles via Deflect Arrow, and slow fall reduces the issues of pit traps. SR helps down the road against magical traps as well. The only issues is their modest hp totals, but with evasion and improved evasion helping, it's not a bad way to go, based on my own experiences.
A Summoner's eidolon (particularly a serpentine one with the Limbs (Arms) evolution) is very useful as a Rogue substitute. I pump up its Perception and Disable Device scores, and it is expendable in case it sets off a trap. Once the chest is open, the eidolon backs away so that the Summoner can use the Open/Close cantrip on the chest. So far this has worked fairly well -- and we should soon be of high enough level that our other spellcasters can help out.
Unless you take away the 1/2 level bonus to finding traps and Disable Device, that's too good for a feat, much less a trait. For JUST finding magic traps, eh, somewhere between a trait and a feat. That could work.
I like the idea of offering "trapfinding" as a trait, that is something I may consider since I am already allowing traits.
Yes you are quite right - too powerful for a trait. All I was going for is the most painless way to give a PC the ability to disable magical traps.
It's stupid that I have to have the "trappfinding" class ability in order to disarm magical traps. Seriously, I can be a 20th level character with a +30 in Disable Device, Kn Arcana, and Spellcraft, yet I can't disable the magical device that a level 1 Rogue can.
Seriously, being able to disable magical traps should be a feat that rogues simply get as a bonus at first level.
All trapfinding does is help you *DISARM* magic traps. An optimized perception can help find any trap, regardless of class.
Once found, most magic traps can be bypassed by either dispel magic or a simple triggering mechanism (like unseen servants, mage hand, a summoned monster, 10 foot pole, etc).
It's stupid that I have to have the "trappfinding" class ability in order to disarm magical traps. Seriously, I can be a 20th level character with a +30 in Disable Device, Kn Arcana, and Spellcraft, yet I can't disable the magical device that a level 1 Rogue can.
Seriously, being able to disable magical traps should be a feat that rogues simply get as a bonus at first level.
Actually you can, you just need to use magic to do it - Erase, Dispel, that sort of thing.
All trapfinding does is help you *DISARM* magic traps. An optimized perception can help find any trap, regardless of class.
Once found, most magic traps can be bypassed by either dispel magic or a simple triggering mechanism (like unseen servants, mage hand, a summoned monster, 10 foot pole, etc).
Big difference between disarming or dispelling a magic trap and triggering one. And the consequenses are usually quite different as well... or at least they should be.
In my opinion triggering magical traps as a way of bypassing them is definitely not a "graceful" solution. Of course not everyone cares about style. :-)
Also, really, I don't think it would in any way be game breaking to create a spell or relatively inexpensive item that grants the ability to disarm a magical trap. (Say, for instance, magic gloves or lockpicks?)
I mean, if Bracers of Archery can grant proficiency with Longbows and Shortbows to someone who isn't otherwise proficient (which would cost 2 feats if you didn't dip into a class with Martial), why the heck wouldn't there be such things?
Actually you can, you just need to use magic to do it - Erase, Dispel, that sort of thing.It's stupid that I have to have the "trappfinding" class ability in order to disarm magical traps. Seriously, I can be a 20th level character with a +30 in Disable Device, Kn Arcana, and Spellcraft, yet I can't disable the magical device that a level 1 Rogue can.
Seriously, being able to disable magical traps should be a feat that rogues simply get as a bonus at first level.
Dispelling is a completely different matter. For one, not everyone can do it. Two, it's not an "at will" ability. How many Dispel spells do you prepare a day? Three, it doesn't change the fact that you can't actually use the Disable Device skill on magical device no matter how good you are at disabling and how encyclopedic your knowledge of magic is. But a nonmagical rogue with trapfiding has no problems.
A hypothetical 20th level Ranger (not of the Urban variety) could have a +30 in Disable Device and Kn Arcana. He can't cast Dispel. He can't disable CR 1 magical traps. That is stupid.
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Detect magic still picks up magic traps. Since it's a cantrip, there really isn't any reason a caster should scan every room, hallway, door, and chest with it just to be sure.
Evasion and a decent Ref save will get you through about 30% of all traps; having a decent AC about another 30%, and the rest are probably Fort and Will saves. Monks are great trapspringers for that reason (except for attack roll type traps, which you can usually just smash anyways).
Any adamantine weapon almost totally obviates the need for Disable Device to open locks. You can just cut off the hinges, carve out the lock, or cut a hole in the door.
james maissen is right that traps are most devastating when combined with other encounters. A 20' pit trap isn't much at 4th level, but a 20' pit trap with a gelatinous cube in the bottom is another matter. By itself, a simple sepia snake sigil just makes you sit still for a while. But when the treasure's guardian creature finds your stunned butt it's much worse. There's the classic water trap with sharks or other aquatic monsters, or its lesser-known variant, the cave-in trap with monsters who have a burrow speed or earth glide. The possibilities are endless.
everyone can crank up disable device....not everyone got the trapfinding ability, so you can spot MAGIC traps.
You don't need trapfinding to find magic traps -- all trapfinding does is let you use disable device to disable magical traps -- you can still disable them with magic, or other means (such as destruction of the trap) -- trapfinding simply provides a bonus to spot and disable and allows for the use of a skill to disable magical traps.
If you find yourself in a group where no character has the trapfinding ability or its equivalent, what are the best ways to deal with traps and locks? Without the magical component, is it worthwhile for another character to crank up disable device? Can the party survive until the arcane caster learns Knock? Does someone just need to bite the bullet and dip a level of Rogue? Any other good tricks of the trade?
There are always creative ways to get around traps. The only way I would suggest taking a dip in rogue as an almost mandatory thing is if the GM says the adventure will have a high number of lethal traps. Other than that summon monsters to set them off and/or have someone with a high perception check in the party as the spotter.
It's stupid that I have to have the "trappfinding" class ability in order to disarm magical traps. Seriously, I can be a 20th level character with a +30 in Disable Device, Kn Arcana, and Spellcraft, yet I can't disable the magical device that a level 1 Rogue can.
Seriously, being able to disable magical traps should be a feat that rogues simply get as a bonus at first level.
The rogue has his job stolen (the irony!) from other classes and prestige classes continuously. Let's try to avoid this.
If there is not a wizard, you overcome teleport by walk or ship or trained rocs or whatelse.
If there is no rogue the monk will roll high enough saves, the barbarian is a good damage sponge, or the casters will conjure something able to take the blows.
Situations like this are interesting because push the players in overcoming obstacles differently. If everybody does the same in the same manner, why have classes?
The rogue has his job stolen (the irony!) from other classes and prestige classes continuously. Let's try to avoid this.
However class lock-in can get boring. Like always needing to have a Cleric for healing in the past. Being able to field a party that doesn't include any of the iconic (Fighter, Rogue, Wizard, Cleric) and yet still fill the roles required by the rules helps create variation that is good for the longevity of the game.
Fighters and Wizards have the most replacement options. I am always happy to healing and trap finding get more alternates.
A Rogue's only job should to be trap removal, just as the Cleric's shout not solely be healing. Strip trap finding off a Rogue and it's still one of better damage dealing classes as well as stealth/skill classes. Having other classes that can take up the trap slack frees a Rogue player to do other things with their skills. Same with getting more healing into the hands of non-Cleric classes, lets the Cleric branch out as a non-heal bot.
It's stupid that I have to have the "trappfinding" class ability in order to disarm magical traps. Seriously, I can be a 20th level character with a +30 in Disable Device, Kn Arcana, and Spellcraft, yet I can't disable the magical device that a level 1 Rogue can.And you might not be able to cast a first level spell that a level 1 Wizard could, or channel energy like a level 1 cleric, etc.
Spells and channeling is something completely different (disreguarding the fact that there are many more classes that can cast arcane spells and channel energy then there are classes that can disable magical devices). I'm talking about being able to use a skill to it's fullest extent when I have put ranks into it. The fact that only Rogues (or a very few others) can use the skill Disable Device in a certain way is stupid. It would be like if only Rogues can use Bluff to feint in combat or if only Rangers could use Survival to track. Rangers are AMAZING at tracking compared to other classes- but they shouldn't be the only ones who can do it. In the same vein, Rogues are amazing at finding and dismantling magical traps, but they shouldn't be the only ones (or near enough) who can do it.
It's something from the class. It's theirs and not a feat.
Yeah... I know that is how it is. I'm saying that is not how it should be.
You want it then take a level in rogue and don't advance your casting or your BAB to get it. You've got 20 levels, 1 of them can be in rogue...-James
This goes against Paizo's whole design philosophy of not having front loaded classes that people multiclass into and cherry pick. But this is still what happens more often than not in most cases that I see.