Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber
How is this possibly balanced? I GM'd several PvP scenarios today and the damage standout by a very long way, was the 8th level alchemist who could fly and throw two bombs per round.
This character was already doing 4d6+5 damage every round (to say nothing of splash damage), and now does 8d6+10 almost every round? With no save! That's better anything a wizard of comparable level can do, and lasts for (in this character's case) up to 7 rounds.
Sure, he's out of bombs then, but so what? He's got extracts and mutagens and in all likelihood all his enemies are dead.
8th level archer:
4 Arrows, +2 bow, 14 STR, Deadly Aim
4d8+40.
8th Level Crossblooded Orcblood/Red Dragon Sorcerer.
Empowered Scorching Ray
Double damage boost from dice, half-orc favored class bonus
12d6+28 (29 if you've got point blank)
It doesn't seem too far off. I've seen it in action, and it wasn't too crazy. No moreso than what anyone else was doing.
EDIT:
Forgot Weapon Spec and training on the archer.
4d8+52
Well, he's doing on average 38 damage a round. Alorha's characters do much better than that.
And the archer can do it over, and over, and over...
Besides with multiweapon fighting (using vestigial arms) and rapid shot you can throw more then just two
How does the archer get 4 arrows in a round? He starts with two and gets 1 from rapid, right?
Second, note the -9 to hit with at least one of those attacks.
While the archer can do that forever, I think the alchemist being only at -5 with one of them (and the general ease of striking with a bomb)...
I dunno, the OP has a point. But just because it can outdamage an unoptimized wizard casting fireball (and only by a bit) doesn't mean THAT much.
I think the sorc is a good argument against crossblooded, but even with one of those you'll trivially outdo the alchemist- versus just one target though. The bombs can hit more than one, maybe.
Several things come to mind.
1. This is not a PvP game and characters do not have to be balanced against each other. Any class that has a limit of per day items will usually do better then the classes that can do their thing all day long.
2. At 8th level Fly is a huge thing. The character cannot use it very much or for very long at that level... but it will give them a lot of power for a single fight. (See point one.)
3. When the game is run as intended fast bombs will make an alchemist run out of them pretty quickly. With two or three rounds of attacking per fight they will be done in short order throwing 2, 3, 4, or 5 per round. Note that rapid shot works with fast bombs as well as any other "bow" feats and the -2 to hit is not that big of a deal with touch attacks.
Thazar wrote: Several things come to mind.
1. This is not a PvP game and characters do not have to be balanced against each other. Any class that has a limit of per day items will usually do better then the classes that can do their thing all day long.
No, but there's still some rules. I mean, you wouldn't allow quicken spell at +0. It sounds like he can throw 12d6+15 no problem, which is honestly a lot.
Still, I don't necessarily think it's an issue. A wizard with empower spell is up to 12d6 right there.
as others have said the game isn't balanced around pvp. a alchemist with swift bombs who goes hog wild will run out of bombs In one combat.
Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber
I predicted this argument when discussing the game with my players. Of course PCs should be balanced against each other. What if he could do 100d6. Would that still be okay? PCs don't need to be equal, but being very unequal makes the game boring, at least for me.
More importantly, the alchemist has dragged Pathfinder back to the Novastar problem that plagued 3.5e's non-core classes, particularly the psionic ones. He's good for one fight. That's not a useful balance factor because typically, he's simply going to make the rest of the party wait while he rests. And you're back to the 5-minute adventuring day.
Also, yeah, how does that archer get the fourth attack?
Tarondor wrote: I predicted this argument when discussing the game with my players. Of course PCs should be balanced against each other. What if he could do 100d6. Would that still be okay? PCs don't need to be equal, but being very unequal makes the game boring, at least for me.
More importantly, the alchemist has dragged Pathfinder back to the Novastar problem that plagued 3.5e's non-core classes, particularly the psionic ones. He's good for one fight. That's not a useful balance factor because typically, he's simply going to make the rest of the party wait while he rests. And you're back to the 5-minute adventuring day.
Also, yeah, how does that archer get the fourth attack?
8th level: 8/3
many shot, rapid shot, 6/6/6/1
Anyway, the alchemist is not meant to go nova. That's why he has backup with the mutagens and the extracts. I've played an alchemist, albeit lower levels, and with alchemical equipment such as alchemist fire and vials of acid that they can make for like, 1 gold, they won't "go nova" and run out of stuff to do. With an alchemist, you should always have something to throw and something to do.
Manyshot only works with bows. An alchemist could go TWF, though, to gain additional attacks.
Tarondor wrote: This character was already doing 4d6+5 damage every round (to say nothing of splash damage), and now does 8d6+10 almost every round? With no save! That's better anything a wizard of comparable level can do, and lasts for (in this character's case) up to 7 rounds. A level 7 evoker with the Magical Lineage (magic missile) trait could cast Scorching Ray + Quickened Magic Missile for 2*(4d6)+3+4*(1d4+1)+3 damage at least 3 times per day.
Or a level 7 evoker with Magical Lineage (scorching ray) could cast Empowered Scorching Ray for 2*1.5*(4d6)+3 damage at least 7 times per day.
Do I win a prize? ;-)
Rapid shot and haste also work on bomb throwing.
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Also, since when did 'does more damage than a wizard' became an indicator that a class is too strong? That's pretty close to saying that the alchemist is overpowered because he has better spellcasting abilities than the fighter.
Adventure Path Charter Subscriber
I'm having this problem in my game as well. I have a Lv18 Alchemist who regularly lasts about 9 rounds because he runs out of bombs and then everybody wants to rest. Which basically makes the more "soldier-on types" (ie rogues, fighters, rangers, monks) irrelevant. Its really great that those types of characters are built to last all day long, but that strength of theirs is moot if the entire party wants to rest every nine rounds because the Alchemist is out of bombs (he is a major damage dealer, after all, and a party generally wants to operate at full strength).
This leaves me in a position where I have to either plan my sessions to include no more than two encounters per rest period, or to "punish" my alchemist PC for having chosen a feat (Fast Bombs)that is clearly too hard to resist. Building an alchemist without choosing this feat is a dumb thing to do if what you are trying to do is make a character that is trying to win fights. It isn't "munchkin" if the feat is a no-brainer to choose.
A rogue might get in 10-15 sneak attacks in nine rounds (estimated average, on some rounds they'll get a full-attack sneak-attack, in others they will be using mobility or acrobatics to get into position). Compare that to 27 bombs in 9 rounds for the alchemist. And the rogue has to actually put herself in danger of receiving a melee full-attack. The alchemist can do comparable damage to a rogue, with impunity, from a distance.
An archer potentially can do as much damage as an alchemist but they won't be knocking anyone prone, setting them on fire or poisoning them with a ridiculously high DC. And an archer still has to get through a full AC, where an alchemist will most often hit so long as they don't roll a "1". Designing encounters where the enemies are all rogues and monks, with high touch AC's, feels like I'm specifically trying to counter the alchemist, which is not what I'm about. I'm not going to design encounters specifically to combat the alchemist. That feels like cheating on my part as a DM. It would also further send the message to other PCs that they are irrelevant and that all fights are about countering the alchemist. Which, again, I don't want to do. I prefer more organic encounters that are more believable. None of my bad guys spent their entire life training to fight this one PC.
Spell casters will only use about 10% of their available spells before an alchemist runs out of Fast bombs. Its hard to get anyone to play a cleric when few PCs even get damaged enough to actually need them over the course of 9 rounds.
I get that this is not a PvP game, but PCs should still be somewhat balanced so that other players don't feel like suckers for not having played an alchemist with Fast bombs.
If there was no Fast Bombs feat, I think the alchemist would be a perfectly balanced character class. My assessment after having an alchemist in my game for over a year now is that everybody's schedule is dependent upon the alchemist. And no PC is even remotely as important as the alchemist. Its almost like they're his bodyguards or something. What they do in a combat is irrelevant because the alchemist pretty much steals the show. This would not be the case if there was no Fast Bombs feat.
I think that after this particular campaign is over, I am going to house-rule edit the APG to strike the feat from my future games. I'm not doing so this campaign because I don't want to penalize my player for choosing the most obvious feat in the book for his character class. I hope this does not cause future players to not play alchemists in my game. I think its a great idea for a class but its just out of control with this feat. And it also disrupts the flow of game when my party can only last through a maximum of two quick fights before resting, and penalizes all of the "soldier-on" type characters, relegating them to the role of "damage soak".
I have always felt that the best moments in RPGs are when parties are stretched to their limits. When they have to choose carefully which of their dwindling resources to use and when to use them. But when the alchemist runs out of ammo so soon after waking up in the morning, nobody else comes anywhere close to being stretched to their limit. Which is very game-breaking in my opinion.
Perhaps a compromise would be only allowing an alchemist to use Fast Bombs once per day or once per d4 rounds or 1/min or something like that. Other abilities have been so limited. Why not this one?
It sounds like a typical case of the 1 trick pony. You're guy does 1 thing and 1 thing only. And I say it's your fault as the GM for letting them rest all the time if you're having a problem with it. The 5 minute adventure day is a thing if you let it. Wizard has cast all his highest level spells, need to wait. Fighter has used his once per day feat, need to rest. Etc... And if your story has no consequences then they have no reason not to do so. And if they're having fun then it's okay. If it's not, throw some random encounters. Have a BBEG spy on them and see that they camp after a little fight and use that against them. Have them have a deadline to accomplish something.
Chess Pwn wrote: It sounds like a typical case of the 1 trick pony. You're guy does 1 thing and 1 thing only. And I say it's your fault as the GM for letting them rest all the time if you're having a problem with it. The 5 minute adventure day is a thing if you let it. Wizard has cast all his highest level spells, need to wait. Fighter has used his once per day feat, need to rest. Etc... And if your story has no consequences then they have no reason not to do so. And if they're having fun then it's okay. If it's not, throw some random encounters. Have a BBEG spy on them and see that they camp after a little fight and use that against them. Have them have a deadline to accomplish something. We had a Wizard in a group a long time ago that like to blow through all his spells in the first encounter. He would do some ridiculous damage, but then he was done and would request a rest. The rest of the group just looked at him like "Hope you can use that crossbow, we have about 3 - 5 more encounters today" and would keep going. It didn't take long for the Wizard to learn to moderate his spells.
It's no fun for anyone if one character is "holding the party back" because they constantly need to rest. And it wasn't fun for the Wizard to play through 4 encounters without any spells either. When one person is unhappy because of the way they used their resources vs. four people being unhappy that they have to wait for the one guy that can't manage his resources you kind of have to go with the group.
Your Alchemist is going nova. This is no different from a Wizard who blows through all of his spells in the day's first encounter. Extend the days and don't let them rest. That's not punishing the Alchemist for using the discovery. That's running the game normally (remember, internal balance assumes ~4 encounters per day).
The Alchemist is a class with a lot of options. He can choose to use his Mutagen, or an Extract, in place of throwing a round of bombs. Get him to use some of those instead.
Also... Better than anything a wizard can do at that level, you say? Because this character deals probably one or two kinds of energy damage, and on average only 19 a bomb. With bombers eye, a bit more, sure. But a simple Resist Energy cuts his damage down to basically nothing (at level 7, Resist Energy gives effectively 20 Energy Resistance). If the Wizard has a idea of who he might be fighting, he can spare a second level spell or three to be immune to everything the Alchemist is likely to do.
Also, Shatter pretty much destroys an Alchemist full stop. These are still the second level spells, people. Sure, maybe he's got a Handy Haversack that he is keeping all those bombs in... Can you use quick draw on an item stored in a handy haversack? I imagine not...
If it seems unlikely that the Wizard would know what he is up against, he does get access to divination spells, and to Scrying in at level seven... Also Greater Invisibility. Also Black Tentacles. Also Charm Monster. Also Dimension Door. Basically any of these can insure that the Wizard survives. Also, he gets Dispel Magic without spending a feat/discovery.
Also, Wizards have "disable" type spells with are essentially more powerful (especially in PvP, which why are you even looking at PvP?) than almost any amount of DPR.
So, yes - against a single target (or a very bunched together group) with no resistance against the damage type the alchemist has (just fire, unless he's spending feats/discoveries which are a big investment), he can deal massive damage. Probably more than a Wizard (there might be some optimized Evoker build, I don't know). Is that really a problem, considering that's the entire focus of this character and the Wizard can do... Well, basically anything?
Chess Pwn wrote: It sounds like a typical case of the 1 trick pony. You're guy does 1 thing and 1 thing only. Actually, that's not even a very optimized alchemist: 4d6+5 is level 8 is Point Blank Shot, 18 Int, and Rapid Bombs to get a second attack. That's two feats and an 18 in your primary damage stat, plenty of room for other tricks.
If he were really trying to do damage, he'd be getting: Two Weapon Fighting and/or Rapid Shot, Cognatogen, more Int, Haste, Targeted Bomb Admixture, Reduce Person, Int and Dex boosters.
22 in a primary stat is pretty normal by 8th level, let's go with that, so an alchemist dedicated to throwing bombs should be doing:
+1 (Point Blank Shot) +2*(+6 for Int +2 from Cognatogen) = 4d6+17
1 Bomb from Haste, 1 from Rapid Shot, 1 at full BAB, 1 iterative
So, you're looking at 16d6+68 And I'm pretty sure I'm missing a few things.
But he can only do that for 3-ish rounds since he'll only have 14 bombs a day without burning feats on extra bombs.
Eris: If I'm reading what you're saying correctly, your party is wanting to stop and rest not because the Alchemist is outshining your other primary damage dealers, but because his damage is right on par with the others and without him you're effectively a man down. He also adds status effects, and has a hard cap of 9 rounds since he's always full attacking? 27 bombs/day means 28 Int, so even with Grand Cognatogen he's doing 9d6+16/bomb (9d6+31 with Targeted Bomb Admixture.) 80% of his hits will be in the 41-54 damage range. (56-69 with TBA) Which seems pretty comparable with what I'd expect from a full BAB character with a two-hander at the same level.
So is the issue more one of longevity? Because the damage is nice but not particularly impressive. At 18th level, a CRB only Fighter who started with the elite array using a Falchion is looking at something like 190 DPR against a CR 20 creature. The Alchemist is better than an unoptimized fighter using longsword and shield (around 110 DPR) but but a little worse than the same unoptimized build using a greatsword (175 DPR.)
A level 18 alchemist, if he wanted, could down a potion of Transform, and combined with his mutagen, be on par with a fighter. There's really no excuse for stopping to rest once he runs out of bombs.
Firstly: awesome thread necro there.
Secondly: this last part should probably go into the advice forum. If the campaign takes on the form of fight, rest, fight, rest then of course the nova characters will shine. There are multiple ways a GM can decrease this kind of play:
1) dangerous area: can't sleep here, it's the middle of a vast army of baddies. This is mitigated somewhat by being so high level the wizard can just create a safe place to rest.
2) on the clock: need to get to the mcguffin within 2 days. There are an unknown number of encounters on the way but definitely more than 4.
3) ...
From reading the replies of people who have problems with the alchemist, it seems your problems are more with the 5 minute adventure day than with the alchemist class itself. Replace the alchemist with a wizard whom uses up all his good spells asap and you'd simply arrive at the same problem.
Solution wise, you could work to make time a more important factor in your campaigns, so the players can actually fail quests if they take their time. Or find ways to punish the 5 minute adventure day. For example if they decide to rest in a dungeon then that gives the inhabitants of the dungeon plenty of time to group up and mount a counter offensive.
Thankfully I play with groups (only as a player, I don't DM) where none of the players like the 5 minute adventuring day, and thus it has never been an issue for us.
As everyone else has said, the problem is not your alchemist, but rather what you allow him to do.
You allow him, and the other players, to dictate the pace of the campaign. They should not. Make sure there are 4 to 5 fights per day. It's not a punishment to your player. It's keeping things balanced.
Adventure Path Charter Subscriber
Its not really that hard to find a safe place to rest once your party has access to teleport. They can literally go home and rest in the comfort of their own bedrooms and even drink the tea out of their own cupboards.
So far as "what I allow them to do", I'm simply allowing them to use the rules as written. My complaint is with a feat that creates incentive for a five-minute game day. And it does that all by itself the way its written without any help from me (see "its the DM's fault," above; I'm here asking for advice, not to be told that I'm a bad DM...bad DM's don't ask for advice, they generally just punish the players or take an "oppositional" attitude toward them--my goal is to create a situation where we're all having fun, not to clobber my players or to tell them which strategies are valid).
Partially this IS due to inexperience as this is only my second Pathfinder rule-set campaign. I was still running the early Adventure Paths that were using 3.5 rules. I ran one with Path rules (nobody played an alchemist so Fast Bombs never came up). I'm currently running one written for 3.5 but decided to convert it as a way to learn the new rules thoroughly. So I haven't yet made many house-rules because I want to see how the game plays without me adjusting things for balance. Fast Bombs is one of the things I intend to adjust for future games.
There are situations where the party has to get so much accomplished within a certain amount of time, and in those situations the player conserves some ammo. But I can't have every situation be a time-limit situation because that, again, would be cheating on my part. Variety makes the game interesting. If they're always in a race against time, there isn't much variety.
Honestly I don't even have a problem with the amount of damage dealt. I think it is comparable with other PCs of a similar level. Not with this particular party at any rate. If we had a rogue in the party, the rogue would be feeling foolish for playing a rogue because she would have to risk her neck and get into position just to have a hope of keeping up with the same damage as the alchemist (and then, only when they get a chance for a full-attack). And rogues do have talents that can cause some decent penalties but they still have to hit the full AC of their opponent and get within full-attack melee range for the most part.
Mostly it is a problem of being up there with the best damage dealers and also being able to penalize enemies at the same time, with impunity, and running out of resources faster than anybody else. If they could only throw one bomb per round, they'd be doing a bit less damage but would still get to cause great penalties with impunity which is still pretty balanced. I think the best solution is one full attack per d4 rounds, like dragon's breath (except when using haste, when they'd still get 2 attacks irregardless of the d4 rd limit). They'd keep more ammo but still get to have a round here and there where they can alter the battlefield like a pro. Just not every round until a minute has passed when they have to go sleep.
Five minute day: meet nine rounds!!!
Balance, to me, means either doing tons of raw damage or doing normal damage but also penalizing your opponents; both is a little unbalanced, particularly every round to multiple opponents, compounded by the ability to attack with impunity in most cases. Sure I can hit him with the occasional touch spell, but when he can use Undead Anatomy III to turn into the skeleton of a pixie, his touch AC goes up by ten and is flying to boot. Impunity, like I said. Its pretty hard for bad guys to fight when force bombs knock 3-4 of them on their butt every round (four when using haste, which also cuts down on how many rds he can fight), not to mention the damage. And if bad guys are having a hard time fighting, it removes the challenge. I know game isn't all about fighting, but when one happens it should at least be exciting.
The force bombs also make energy resistance irrelevant. It isn't much of a damage penalty (d4s vs d6s, especially when most enemies they've been fighting have Resist10 on most energy types). When enemies don't have fire resistance, he usually uses explosive bombs, strafe, etc. Which is great. But he still runs out of ammo.
Mutagens, extracts and so forth last a long time and are usually already utilized before a fight begins. My PCs aren't dumb and usually know when they're walking into a danger zone. On occasion I still catch them by surprise, but if they were surprised every time it would cut down on variety. I try to make encounters as unique and memorable as I can. I don't want my game to be same-old.
If I were in his shoes, I would be happy to deal a decent amount of damage and knock a foe prone in the same round, while not being in much danger myself. But instead, he's doing as much damage (roughly) as the monk and the samurai but without any risk to himself. All the poor cleric ever really gets accomplished is a couple short-term group-cracks and maybe a heal spell before the fight is over. I feel sorry for the cleric, and that isn't a state of mind I'm generally in. I like clerics, I think they're pretty essential to a party and I don't want to make anyone playing a cleric feel like a chump or a band-aid. But if they only get in one good attack spell every other fight they tend to get bored.
I don't generally run wandering monster encounters as I find them fairly boring, easy, and often there isn't really much point in them. I'm far more interested in story-driven encounters. I guess maybe that is my fault. But I don't set up encounter areas with only one bad guy guarding a whole dungeon or whatever. I generally run published adventures. I'm currently running Savage Tide. It is a masterpiece of writing, particularly the final two modules. Also, the end of the third to the last is just pure genius.
Thank you everyone for your great replies. I swear you're faster than Fast Bombs. Not really, but pretty fast anyway. You have all given me a lot to think about, and hopefully my experience and my sharing it helps others as well!
Extra points for anyone who gets this reference...."We are Sex Ba-Bomb, and we're here to make you think about death and get sad and stuff!!!!"
I often think of that quote when I think of alchemists.
This is why I tended to subject new groups to red hand of doom fairly early when I run for them. Big ever ticking timer with sometimes 5 or 6 encounters a day and enemy groups that replenish if you retreat. Teaches them that full nova and sleep gets innocent ppl killed.
Talonhawke wrote: This is why I tended to subject new groups to red hand of doom fairly early when I run for them. Big ever ticking timer with sometimes 5 or 6 encounters a day and enemy groups that replenish if you retreat. Teaches them that full nova and sleep gets innocent ppl killed. Even with teleport, pacing can be an issue. Sure you can nova in the first couple fights (fast bombs or the casters dropping their big spell when not really needed) and then get away to rest, but what are the enemy doing while you do that? Not just sitting around in their assigned rooms waiting for you to come back, that's for sure.
Calling in reinforcements. Running away, with the loot you wanted. Preparing alarms and traps to swarm you when you return. All sorts of possibilities.
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Yeah if you haven't read that campaign it details exactly what happens if the party doesn't clear an area. Guys move around they get backup and they send guys on ahead to let higher ups know what the party is capable of.
If they teleport out, you reset the dungeon.
Don't allow them to take the easy way out.
I don't know about resetting the dungeon, but yes, there should be consequences. As Talonhawke says, at a the remaining enemies will be ready for the PC's when they return, potentially with very nasty surprises. Even just forcing the PC's to deal with 2-3 encounters worth of foes at once (which would realistically be just one result of them being on "high alert," as there is safety in numbers) should make things significantly to incredibly more dangerous - The dungeon can go nova, too... :p
Adventure Path Charter Subscriber
I actually usually have dungeons go nova. I'm not easy on my PCs by any means. Particularly when they are as powerful as they are. Not all dungeons go nova, of course, but the ones that have any organizational relationship do, and realistically should.
Lawful enemies are just naturally organized and have contingency plans and everyone knows what their job is in advance of being raided.
Chaotic enemies are good at making a lot of noise, whether battle cries or just general screaming and yelling, which usually alerts nearby enemies. Chaotic Evil enemies are even worse than other chaotics because each individual's top goal is usually to preserve his or her own life (probably true with any Evil). There is always a ready volunteer to go alert the rest of the dungeon.
I don't generally reset dungeons because I don't think that is realistic. I've seen modules where re-staffing was actually included in a sidebar, for the particular organization running that dungeon. It had details such as: how many over time could be recruited, ideas for replacing unique creatures and so forth. But something like that takes place over time, and it would feel like cheating to just reset. It can be got away with in certain circumstances as long as it isn't overused. I remember a certain Moathouse where the undead would rise again the next night, so you had to fight through them in order to explore the dungeon further. That was a great idea but only works in the pre-teleport levels and if overused would lose its unique quality.
Also, regarding teleport, often adventure areas are warded against such magic. This is also great but can be cheapened with overuse.
When it comes to how a dungeon reacts to the party teleporting out halfway through, I think a lot depends on what exactly this "dungeon" is. If it's an isolated tribe of monsters trapped deep underground, there's not much more they can do before the next day other than go on high alert and maybe throw up some crude defenses/traps.
On the other hand, if the dungeon is something like a corrupt noble's mansion in the middle of a major city, you can expect said noble to spend his one-day reprieve hiring extra thugpower and maybe even contacting the local authorities about the band of "brigands" who invaded his home last night and requesting additional protection.
Adventure Path Charter Subscriber
In 3.5 there was a spell you could use to pull someone into the plane you're in. I think it was in Spell Compendium. My clever players got themselves ethereal and then went through a castle to go after the evil leadership personally while bypassing most minions. My players are smart. It was a great tactic for not harming the brave, mostly lawful soldiers who weren't doing anything wrong, and instead going after the actual evil leadership. Brilliant!
But when talk started of building their party around that idea (once the arcane caster could cast it and the group could be ethereal they were going to treat all dungeons like that) I decided that I had collected enough Pathfinder rule-set books that I was ready to try it out.
Gotta hand it to clever PCs. My rule has generally been that if they can find some creative loophole, go ahead and let them exploit it at least once. But my advice to them is to not overdo it, or you ruin your own fun by taking the challenge out of the game. Every encounter shouldn't be a gang-stomp. And game would be boring if it was.
eris wrote: So far as "what I allow them to do", I'm simply allowing them to use the rules as written. My complaint is with a feat that creates incentive for a five-minute game day. And it does that all by itself the way its written without any help from me (see "its the DM's fault," above; I'm here asking for advice, not to be told that I'm a bad DM...bad DM's don't ask for advice, they generally just punish the players or take an "oppositional" attitude toward them--my goal is to create a situation where we're all having fun, not to clobber my players or to tell them which strategies are valid). As I mentioned before-- these same rules as written are presuming, balance-wise, that this Alchemist will have to deal with an average of four encounters per day.
You aren't being told you're a bad DM. There's no need to get defensive. What you are being told is how Fast Bombs is balanced; literally the answer to the posited question. By extension, what you're being told is that the players acting against that balance is what's creating your problem.
This isn't any different from the high-level caster blowing all of his spells to slaughter a single encounter. When characters nova, they destroy what's in front of them. And then-- in the theory that the game is balanced under-- they have to deal with whatever is behind that target.
You need to either accept this strategy as valid or counteract it by running the assumptions behind the rules as written. Which you choose is entirely up to you.
eris wrote: There are situations where the party has to get so much accomplished within a certain amount of time, and in those situations the player conserves some ammo. But I can't have every situation be a time-limit situation because that, again, would be cheating on my part. Variety makes the game interesting. If they're always in a race against time, there isn't much variety. There are a lot of ways to add encounters to the day without putting up a shot clock. You can very easily add variety and enemies at the same time. Some quick thoughts on that at the end of the post.
eris wrote: Mostly it is a problem of being up there with the best damage dealers and also being able to penalize enemies at the same time, with impunity, and running out of resources faster than anybody else. If they could only throw one bomb per round, they'd be doing a bit less damage but would still get to cause great penalties with impunity which is still pretty balanced. I think the best solution is one full attack per d4 rounds, like dragon's breath (except when using haste, when they'd still get 2 attacks irregardless of the d4 rd limit). They'd keep more ammo but still get to have a round here and there where they can alter the battlefield like a pro. Just not every round until a minute has passed when they have to go sleep. "With impunity" and "running out of resources faster than anyone else" are, by definition, exclusive terms.
Your dragon's breath analogy is actually a fitting one. Dragons have a 1d4 round timer on their breath weapons. Draconic Sorcerers also get a breath weapon. Assuming they take the glaringly-obvious item (Robe of Arcane Heritage), it's actually superior, in damage output, to what a dragon gets for more than half the game (the tilting point is level 13, though the Sorcerer will actually have the better DC pretty much all the way through). It's also limited in uses-per-day, but until you hit those uses it can be fired every round with impunity.
The last sentence is the key part. Why doesn't it have a cooldown like the dragons themselves do? Because it's limited in use. Bombs-- Fast Bombs included-- are limited in use. Ergo, you can use them every round.
The game's resource-based mechanics ultimately almost all fall into those two pools:
-Unlimited use, until daily cap is reached
-Limited use, infinite uses per day
There are a few oddballs like Grit/Panache that try to bounce over the line but they're rare. Within the Alchemist itself, we have three major resources-- Bomb, Extract, Mutagen-- and the first two are unlimited-use until capped, the latter is limited in use but you can make as many a day as you like-- effectively a one-hour cooldown.
The two are balanced against each other by the theories presented in the CR and encounters system. To reiterate my core point: when you break away from that system, you break the unlimited-use resources by removing their sole real limitation.
Some thoughts on extending encounters-per-day:
1. Ambushes. If the PCs are constantly teleporting away, and are amongst the most powerful people on the continent (at this level, they are), then people are going to figure out where they live. It's not all that hard to do. So they teleport away from their engagement... and walk into an ambush.
Turn it into a plot hook. Ambushing a group randomly is boring. Ambushing a group as a message from the big bad to get rid of those meddling kids and their dog is a whole different ball game.
2. Areas where they can't rest. If a high-level enemy-- especially an outsider-- is wanting to secure an area, Teleport Trap is but one of many obvious defenses. Use 'em.
3. Waves. Condense all four of the assumed fights into one long encounter. Throwing everything at them at once is probably a TPK waiting to happen, but stretching it out leaves them alive and forces the normal balance to kick back in. Do this a few times before the endgame and your Alch should learn a bit, thus taking care of your spoilered note as well.
And yeah, every now and then...
4. Put 'em on the clock. Nothing wrong with it, you just shouldn't be doing it constantly. Vary things up.
eris wrote: I don't generally reset dungeons because I don't think that is realistic. I've seen modules where re-staffing was actually included in a sidebar, for the particular organization running that dungeon. It had details such as: how many over time could be recruited, ideas for replacing unique creatures and so forth. But something like that takes place over time, and it would feel like cheating to just reset. It can be got away with in certain circumstances as long as it isn't overused. I remember a certain Moathouse where the undead would rise again the next night, so you had to fight through them in order to explore the dungeon further. That was a great idea but only works in the pre-teleport levels and if overused would lose its unique quality.
Also, regarding teleport, often adventure areas are warded against such magic. This is also great but can be cheapened with overuse.
You don't need to reset numbers, unless that's something easily accomplished. But everyone still alive knows exactly what's coming after them now. They know exactly what the group's A game is. And they know that the group is coming for them.
They're either mindless constructs/undead, they're going to take advantage of that knowledge, or they're going to run like hell. If they twiddle their thumbs waiting for the next fifteen hours and fifty-five minutes... then yeah, they deserve to be slaughtered like sheep, because that's how threatening they actually are.
"Teach" your players that sometimes you put two encounters in a day, sometimes you put six encounters in a day. Don't let them feel like they can predict it. They'll have to plan for the worst.
Ascalaphus wrote: "Teach" your players that sometimes you put two encounters in a day, sometimes you put six encounters in a day. Don't let them feel like they can predict it. They'll have to plan for the worst. +1
There have been many times I've not used an Arcane Pool point, or highest level spell when I could have because I was saving it for the next possible encounter, only to find out there were no more encounters that day. On the flip side we just had a pretty nasty encounter where one of my party members spent the last of her channels and most of her spells, and then less than an hour later, BAM! nastier encounter.
Anyone who things alchemists do too much damage, I'd like to introduce to you my friend the pouncing raging barbarian...Sure if you compare the damage to a rouge it seams like alot, but even at 10d6, thats only 35+int damage. At that same level a barbarian can have upwards of a 36 strength while raging With just a +5 two handed weapon and power attack is doing 2d6+39 damage on a single hit with a greatsword. And by that level, he's got 4 attacks. Add to that other tricks like adding in a bite attack, and you completely blow out of the water the kind of damage the alchemist could do.
The wizard throwing a fireball is not the yardstick for damage. And even blowing his wad, the alchemist doesnt compare against an optimized damage dealer. Mind you the 1 encounter work day is a problem. But thats one you should just sit down and talk to your players about. As if you know, you were playing a game, with friends, and everyone wants to have fun, so maybe you make certain concessions about how things should proceed in order to promote everyone enjoying it (note the gm is included in everyone).
I played Blood Under Absalom this weekend, with a party made of Barb6, Bloodrager6, my Alchemist5 and a Bard6.
Sure, I did pretty good damage, but those ragers did a lot more.
Rather than nerfing the alchemist, eris's answer might actually just be increasing the number of bombs available:
You balance challenges for your party based (partly) on the number of damage dealers available. If the Alchemist is one of your party's core damage dealers, then when they run out of bombs, suddenly they're facing challenges meant for a stronger party. Finally, if the alchemist isn't outshining other dedicated damage dealers, there's no incentive to nerf them. Therefore: More bombs equals longer adventuring day without a significant increase in the party's power.
If the alchemist is a secondary damage dealer who primarily does other stuff, then jumps in with bombs when the party needs some extra oomph, that would probably demand a different solution.
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Taking Fast Bombs away would simply eliminate using an alchemist in the damage dealer role of a party, even as a secondary damage dealer. That way lies GM/Player friction.
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