I like it. Plausible as long as you don't take paladin codes too seriously (deception and ambush are not honorable).
There's no tenets about deception or ambush within the paladin codes of the Pathfinder rules
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I like the idea of a roguish paladin! Some say ambushes and deceptions are dishonorable, I say it's good strategy.
I would have to think more about a build, but right off the bat if I were trying to "survive in a gritty city..." then stealth would be high up there. So would also look at intimidate (sometimes a rougher hand is need when you need information), disable device, heal is handy, sense motive, and of course knowledge (local).
While I don't make any claims about the mechanics of survivability, if you can get your GM to ok you picking up an archetype at the later level, given the background you described, Divine Defender or Undead Scourge seem fitting.
I like it. Plausible as long as you don't take paladin codes too seriously (deception and ambush are not honorable).There's no tenets about deception or ambush within the paladin codes of the Pathfinder rules
Not in exact terms
PRD=...act with honor (not lying, not cheating, not using poison, and so forth)
Now I think this character is ok, but this thread says otherwise.
I don't agree with the opposition, but I know some people would.
I like this. One of the more interesting characters I saw in a PbP was a reformed rogue turned unconscious paladin ship captain. He didn't worship any specific god but was a shining example to his crew of misfits and lived his life the straightest way.
In page 13 of this thread he explains how he came to be a paladin without really knowing about it.
Now then, you're Cortez Vandrokar. You're basically just a fighter, except that you're extremely righteous and good. You spend all your time saving people, instead of studying fighting, so the Forces of Good grant you all sorts of abilities to help you smite evil and whatnot. Except that unlike Joe Schmoe the Paladin, you don't hang out at temples, chatting with priests or other paladins. You don't worship a specific god, so nobody's sending you visions or dreams. Instead, you spend all your time on a boat, with sailors, marines, and sundry ex-pirates. Who's going to explain to you about spellcasting? Or turning undead? Which sailor is going to be expected to sit down and explain to you about horses?? You're not just going to wake up one day and say, "gosh, now that I'm level 5, I feel like summoning my trusty paladin steed" because that, in my book, is really, truly, unforgiveably bad roleplay.
[...]
Suffice to say that Cortez's career as a paladin was a little more unorthodox than your standard temple-trained, land-lubbin' warrior of goodness, with a lot more ... trial and error in there.
Not to worry, though, fellow party members. He's pretty much got the hang of it now. Or he did, before Ravenloft changed all the rules...
Note that he did cast spells, turn undead and have a paladin's mount and whatnot, only he portraied it as happening unconsiuosly or at least spontaneously with Cortez slowly getting the hang of it and not quite able to explain his "powers".
For example here he explains how he got his paladins mount:
Back in the "Setting Out for Procampur" thread, Cortez started to talk to Balin about the horse, and he explained:
"Well, Balin, I acquired this horse some time ago...or, truth to tell, it started following me. The damn thing's smarter than some of my sailors, stubborn as blazes, uncommonly strong, and I haven't been able to get rid of him no matter what I do."
Cortez pats the horse affectionately, despite his grumbling. "On the other hand, I'm quite certain that Cutter here isn't the doppleganger, at least. So, I dunno, Balin. I don't know much about horses, and I don't know what to make of a horse so smart, nor have I any idea why it would adopt me as it has."
Honestly? Seems more like a guy who changed his Alignment than a guy who started developing Paladin levels.
Also, the way you describe the experience, it seems that he gained a werepaladin template rather than a class level. "Smelling" evil, "urge" to protect... Paladins are humans graced with the powers of Order and Goodness, not some mythical man-beasts lacking free will.
Other than that, I like the base idea of a rogue "converted" to paladinhood. But the way I understand Paladins, he should be less about a miracle happening to him and more about a honest change of heart. Which should include him genuinely trying to be more chivalrous than he were before, because chivalry is the core theme of the Paladin class.
I do not see the honorable part of the paladin code, instead of trying not to go against the code consider how he lives up to it.
Bluff, disguise and even sneak attack are often not the honorable thing to do, you will have to limit yourself if you want to pull it off in my opinion. Do not always go for sneak attack, except against a superior foe where your friend's lives are in the balance, dirty fighting, ambushes and the like should be used as part of a bigger plan to avoid 'greater' misdeeds, preferably an ambush should include a plan to capture or subdue rather than kill your foes for example.
Not all deception has to be dishonorable. Sun Tzu in the art of war states all war is based on deception. He goes on to give examples like lighting more campfires to make is seem like your forces are larger. Bringing confusion to the enemy should be fine, but lying for selfish reasons would be out. Use of an illusion to fool the enemy into retreating will not be a problem, using an illusion to fool a merchant into thinking cooper coins are gold would.
Overall I think the character is a great concept. the only thing I would do would be to adjust the STATS. Go for a STR 13 (+1 Level), DEX 14 (+2 Racial) CON 12, INT 10, WIS 11, CHA 14. CHA is key to a Paladin and STR 13 is required by a lot of feats that are useful, mainly power attack. If you really want the 18 DEX then drop the WIS to 10 and boost the STR to 13.
For the type of Rogue I would go for the Confidence man type. the social skills Diplomacy, Intimidate, sense motive. Everyone always talks about the Paladin being the party face, but for the most part he lacks the skills to pull it off.
Damn, that´s a really cool concept. I´d give him less Dex and more Fighter-Lvls, but that´s a question of Fighting-Style.
Definetly I´d give him only 1 PaladinLvl, since he´s supposed to be new in this line of work and hasn´t fully come to grips with his vocation.
I like it -- and, to be fair, I'd play his early career as straight -- build him without thinking of future paladinniness.... So, Finesse Rogue to use his dexterity - and then TWF to optimize the sneak damage (and, for that matter, it will do the same for Smite later - it's not a bad way to go).
I imagine that he's the honourable sort, so his sneak attacks are more about the flanking/precision damage than leaping out of the darkness and killing before the opponent can see you -- although, sometimes that's the necessary course of action, even for the paladin, so that still works.
Charisma of 13 is a little low, but items will fix that later -- and you will likely want to get to 13 str for the Power Attack Chain (especially you lose the ability to use rogue talents to get access to combat-trick feats).
In terms of skills, he's a merc, so he's probably good at negotiating his contract (Dip, Bluff, Sense Motive), and probably self-sufficient (Perception, Survival).
And don't worry about the people trying to straightjacket you into wearing full plate with a blazoned shield -- there's a reason that Paladins get Undetectable Alignment on their spell list.
It's a very viable concept, and could add to a memorable campaign.
I ran a campaign some years back and in the party was a rogue/squire. He was the childhood friend, and selected squire, of the youngest son of a poor baron (played by another character), but he was a rogue at heart.
The party camped among some ruins where a party had been wiped out decades before by the evil creatures that hid there and only came out at night. This party defeated the creatures, but the squire died. While dead, he met the paladin who had died there, and found out both groups had been on the same quest. He also learned the quest would fulfill a thousand year old prophecy that would affect the world. The paladin offered to impart to him his memories of the quest, so that the living party might complete it.
When the rogue/squire was raised, he had not only the paladin's memories but also his motivation for seeing the quest completed. The player embraced this idea and ran with it. He became a paladin himself, prayed to the deity of the former paladin for guidance, and remade the character.
The party not only accepted it, but saw it as a sign that they were involved in something much more important than finding treasure. The baron's son acknowledged him as an equal, chosen by a god, and it led to some great play.
Many campaigns, and adventure paths, have that "save the world" idea, but seldom is it realized. Usually your characters complete it and, if the players give it some thought, they understand that 99% of the world never knew it happened or was important. This campaign was different; the players traveled to every human nation, went from 1st to about 18th level, and in the end not only saved their world, but were famous world-wide for doing it. The Overking held a Court of Honor for them.
The next time we played a campaign in that setting, I moved it decades into the future and they found towns named after their characters and statues in the cities of them. Their new characters had no connection to the old but the players loved the idea that their old characters were famous heroes quickly becoming legends. The converted paladin played a large part in that.
Before we get too derailed by another paladin argument: I've tried to keep Charlie consistent with the RAW. I think he /is/ consistent with the RAW. Whether he would be playable is a separate question, but since he's an NPC, it's not an issue just now.So, crunch. Would a two-shortsword fighter make sense here? Feats:
1 Weapon finesse (shortsword)
1 2WF (shortsword)
1 Weapon focus (shortsword)
3 Improved InitRogue/fighter: win initiative and whale on your target with doubled sneak attacks. Ideally, work with a flank buddy... but even in a straight-up fight, your attack bonuses are high enough that you can do a decent amount of damage for a low-level character.
Finesse doesn't require you to pick a weapon - you get to use all finesse-able weapons for the cost of 1 feat (or rogue power). Also, what rogue power were you looking at -- it can also have an effect. (For instance, if Charlie started as a rogue, he might have taken Finesse Rogue as his first power, freeing him up for a different fighter feat -- like Combat Reflexes to take advantage of his dex).
Having said that, and with the stats you've got (keeping you out of some chains and, really Double Slice isn't the spiffiest when you're not strong), Charlie might benefit from:
- Extra Lay on Hands (due to his low Charisma -- the self-healing swift action is never a bad thing).
- Two-Weapon Defense
- Dodge
- Extra Rogue Talent (Bleeding Attack)
Just a few suggestions off the top of my head, anyway.
It sounds like you're already running with the character, but you might want to consider making him a Low Templar.
Ohh, I'd completely forgotten about rogue powers. Right, right.Bleeding Attack would be good, but it doesn't really fit the character even before he became a paladin. Resilience? 3 emergency hp for one minute -- could keep you alive long enough to lay on hands. Offensive defence? A foe gets -1 to hit you for every sneak attack die you laid on him last round. That one goes nicely together with 2WF. Fast Stealth and Fast Getaway both fit the character nicely (and Fast Getaway could help keep him alive).
I would say Resiliency is probably not worth it - it doesn't scale.
However, if you like the idea of Fast Getaway - you might also think about Slow Reactions - it prevents the guy that got Sneak-Attacked from AoOing -- which is both good if you're trying to be mobile and, in fact, good for allies who want to step in and/or cast spells (and for that matter, Charlie himself when he get spellcasting).
Based on the flavour and ideas, Charlie might be the type to Extra Mercy, also.
Gotta say, I love this concept. May be ganking it for an NPC someday. :p
BAAAAH! I love this idea...
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You could certainly have Charlie at the start of his career -- Ftr 1/Rog 3/ Pal 1. But he'd be completely bewildered. I chose this version because it's Charlie at the point where he's sort of figured out what's going on, but is still recognizably the man he was. As time goes by and he gains more paladin levels (assuming he survives), Charlie would presumably become a bit more like a standard paladin.
Presumably his different background and self-taught introduction to the class would always have him being somewhat different than the "regular" paladins out there -- it would be a shame to give up his flavour as he levels -- especially when it's not necessary.
