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Prof Potts,
How do you compare the Magus 20 to the Magus 10/EK 20?
I found your analysis above interesting and would like your input.
Cheers for that! :)
As for the Magus 10 / EK 10 (as I assume you mean), my knee-jerk reaction is that any of the Prestige classes which add levels of spellcasting power are a little wasted if not added onto a full casting class's spellcasting power. Semi-casting classes, like the Magus, seem to be usually designed with other options and features which make up for not having a full-caster's power - options and features which aren't covered by the increase in spellcasting power of the Prestige class. In essence, those extra levels of spellcasting progression will always be 'worth' more if they're building up a full casting progression.
That said, I guess it's more a question of whether a Magus 10 / EK 10 makes a better Magus than a Magus 20?
Well, just looking at the BAB the Magus 10 / EK 10 only gains +2 over the vanilla Magus, which isn't a huge amount. By Magus 10 you're already 3 BAB behind full, which is the exact same BAB 'dip' for taking 5 levels of Wizard - so why not get the extra spellcasting power?
Spellcasting will be down, but only by a single level 6 spell per day, so that's comparable.
You lose a couple of significant things though - Improved Spell Recall at level 11, and the ability to cast without ASF in heavy armour at level 13 - both of which, if you've gone to level 10 as a Magus already, seem worth pushing on just a little further to acquire.
Personally I don't see much appeal in multiclassing a Magus with an EK - one or the other seems a better route to go.
On the other hand, a 4 level dip into Magus from an otherwise full Fighter character is a pretty interesting choice. Spell Combat at level 1 and Spellstrike at level 2 don't scale - they're as good as they'll ever be as soon as you get them. Take the Close Range arcana at level 3 and you can use the Ray of Frost cantrip to trigger your extra Spellstrike-fuelled attack all day long - essentially making you a Fighter with one less BAB overall, but an extra attack each round (although watch those Concentration checks...). If you take the Hexcrafter archetype you'll get a Witch Hex at level 4, along with the ability to take more via Feats (taking Extra Arcana Feats to buy arcana or hexes), not to mention a few extra curse-based spells on your list. The limits of only being able to ignore ASF in light armour mean it's a multiclass combo which will only appeal to certain character concepts, of course, but if you want to add some (arcane) magical oomph to your Fighter without sacrificing much in return it looks like a reasonable option. IMHO, natch... ;)
I would suggest the familiar is still a good choice for a number of reasons for the eldritch knight.
To say it doesn't scale without wizard levels is a bit of... well I'll say a stretch.
This is because several parts of it do scale regardless of class -- in fact they scale better for the eldritch knight than they do for the wizard. These parts are:
Hit points
BAB
Save Throws
Skill usage
That's a good point. The three 'small' sized Familiars in Ultimate Magic help this sort of concept out too (donkey rat, goat, and pig).
I was thinking about the possibility of a Magus 1/Wizard 9/ Eldritch Knight 10. Would it be worth it?
Then there is the Broad Study Arcana....I don't get it....why does a Magus have to be 6th level for this. It practically makes it useless.
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I was thinking about the possibility of a Magus 1/Wizard 9/ Eldritch Knight 10. Would it be worth it?
Then there is the Broad Study Arcana....I don't get it....why does a Magus have to be 6th level for this. It practically makes it useless.
I haven't found the complete fit for it -- but magus 6/cleric 4/ mystic theurge 10 would have 7th level cleric spells, 6th level magus spells medium armor casting and spell combat on both sides of his casting.
The problem is going to be his BAB really -- dropping mystic theurge to 8 and taking magus to 8 would increase his BAB by 1 while dropping him to 6th level clerical spells...
While BAB +13 looks unimpressive remember he'll be able to buff as he goes -- using some of the best clerical buffs and arcane buffs available. Righteous Might and Transformation at the same time could be nasty -- as could divine favor with haste and Monstrous form.
Would it be enough to make him 'even'? I don't know -- I've not fiddled with the numbers enough... but it could look very powerful, especially if he gets to nova.
I haven't found the complete fit for it -- but magus 6/cleric 4/ mystic theurge 10 would have 7th level cleric spells, 6th level magus spells medium armor casting and spell combat on both sides of his casting.
Critical hit on a spellstrike with Harm? Ouch, Nasty.
BAB will be an issue only if you don't have time to buff yourself, and Truestrike is on you spell list, if you are facing a really high AC foe.
Probably the best use I have seen of Mystic Theurge, neat idea!
I haven't found the complete fit for it -- but magus 6/cleric 4/ mystic theurge 10 would have 7th level cleric spells, 6th level magus spells medium armor casting and spell combat on both sides of his casting.
Critical hit on a spellstrike with Harm? Ouch, Nasty.
BAB will be an issue only if you don't have time to buff yourself, and Truestrike is on you spell list, if you are facing a really high AC foe.
Probably the best use I have seen of Mystic Theurge, neat idea!
Thank you -- for you first arcana I recommend either wand wielder or arcane accuracy. Getting even just a +3 on all your attack rolls in a round can make a huge difference and at higher level having a +6~+10 is absolutely amazing.
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I was thinking about the possibility of a Magus 1/Wizard 9/ Eldritch Knight 10. Would it be worth it?
Then there is the Broad Study Arcana....I don't get it....why does a Magus have to be 6th level for this. It practically makes it useless.
I haven't found the complete fit for it -- but magus 6/cleric 4/ mystic theurge 10 would have 7th level cleric spells, 6th level magus spells medium armor casting and spell combat on both sides of his casting.
The problem is going to be his BAB really -- dropping mystic theurge to 8 and taking magus to 8 would increase his BAB by 1 while dropping him to 6th level clerical spells...
While BAB +13 looks unimpressive remember he'll be able to buff as he goes -- using some of the best clerical buffs and arcane buffs available. Righteous Might and Transformation at the same time could be nasty -- as could divine favor with haste and Monstrous form.
Would it be enough to make him 'even'? I don't know -- I've not fiddled with the numbers enough... but it could look very powerful, especially if he gets to nova.
Bloody Brilliant!
Though, what domains did you take for the Cleric? I would think Runeand Travel to be excellent choices. Though, I'm a fan of fast movent and scribe scroll. I assume that familiar or wandwielder would be the 3rd level arcan of choice.
Sure a magus 6/cleric 4/ mystic theurge 10 sounds relatively impressive at 20th-level, but how does he fair at earlier levels?
Betcha' it sucks hard.
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Sure a magus 6/cleric 4/ mystic theurge 10 sounds relatively impressive at 20th-level, but how does he fair at earlier levels?
Betcha' it sucks hard.
Likely, depends on play style. It'd likely end up like being a more combat focused bard. Just speculating over the magus spell list of course. Naturally the cleric ads some versitility. Though, I'd be the sort of jerk who played around too much with selective channeling and versitile channeling.
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Sure a magus 6/cleric 4/ mystic theurge 10 sounds relatively impressive at 20th-level, but how does he fair at earlier levels?
Betcha' it sucks hard.
Only with complete failure of thought -- Magus for the first six~eight levels. That gets you to third level spells and gives you the arcanas you want to start with -- go into cleric for the next three levels. You've got shield of faith and divine favor to see you through the few levels you are in cleric and you'll be able to spell combat them as well.
Straight into mystic theurge. You don't really lose too much from BAB this way, and you have the character development of "finding religion".
Heck go with nethys and grab your versatile channeler and channeling smite. This can add 4d6 to your damage (get a phylactery of negative in my opinion) for the rounds when you can't spell combat.
After two~three levels of mystic theurge you'll have 4th level magus and 3rd level cleric (depends on how much magus you start with).
I would probably spend my traits, feats, arcana, and domains on the following (stars are my big recommendations):
Trait: Magical Knack(cleric)
Domains: Arcane*, Heroism*, Liberation*, Curse, Travel, Undead
Arcana: Arcane Accuracy*, Wand Wielder*, Hasted assault, Broad Study*
Feats: extra arcana, arcane strike*, toughness, nimble moves, quicken spell, extra arcane pool, versatile channeler*, channel smite*, toppling spell*, spell penetration*, greater spell penetration*
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Sure a magus 6/cleric 4/ mystic theurge 10 sounds relatively impressive at 20th-level, but how does he fair at earlier levels?
Betcha' it sucks hard.
Only with complete failure of thought -- Magus for the first six~eight levels. That gets you to third level spells and gives you the arcanas you want to start with -- go into cleric for the next three levels. You've got shield of faith and divine favor to see you through the few levels you are in cleric and you'll be able to spell combat them as well.
Straight into mystic theurge. You don't really lose too much from BAB this way, and you have the character development of "finding religion".
Heck go with nethys and grab your versatile channeler and channeling smite. This can add 4d6 to your damage (get a phylactery of negative in my opinion) for the rounds when you can't spell combat.
After two~three levels of mystic theurge you'll have 4th level magus and 3rd level cleric (depends on how much magus you start with).
I would probably spend my traits, feats, arcana, and domains on the following (stars are my big recommendations):
Trait: Magical Knack(cleric)
Domains: Arcane*, Heroism*, Liberation*, Curse, Travel, Undead
Arcana: Arcane Accuracy*, Wand Wielder*, Hasted assault, Broad Study*
Feats: extra arcana, arcane strike*, toughness, nimble moves, quicken spell, extra arcane pool, versatile channeler*, channel smite*, toppling spell*, spell penetration*, greater spell penetration*
Just thought of Magus6/Druid4/Mystic Theurge10
Yeah we give up channeling goodness, but with natural spell, one can make the most out of the magu's transformative spells and spell combat, plus getting some decent abilities and spells from the druid portion of things.
thoughts?
Just that I like magus 7 for medium armor -- but it isn't needed. Suggestions include looking at the totems that improve your wild shape and the feat in ultimate magic that counts you 4 levels higher for wild shape (up to your total hit dice) too.
Urban Druid offers a lot to such a build -- it might be worth going Magus 6/Druid 6/ MT 8.
Personally the channel energy is nice but probably wasted in 90% of builds -- after all that would require a level of MADness that isn't recommended -- however if you roll stats and rolled well...
I don't see how 6th-level magus abilities and 6th-level druid abilities work together well. Your arcane pool will suck as will your wildshape. What am I missing?
I don't see how 6th-level magus abilities and 6th-level druid abilities work together well. Your arcane pool will suck as will your wildshape. What am I missing?
Meh Magus 7 for third level spells too -- that's for the accidental reminder Ravingdork.
The key to really making the druid work will be to either find forms that use weapons, or to use flame blade. When you aren't casting spells having natural weapons will help alot due to your BAB -- having extra attacks that aren't reliant on iterative attacks is going to be helpful.
The bonus to strength, dex, con, and AC will be a boon, and once you can hit elemental forms you are set. Elementals *can* use weapons -- most don't but they can, and elemental form offers a lot of other benefits (I'm sure you are aware of most of them). Wild Shape 10 will hit medium elementals and if you go with a Spell Blade Magus you'll always have a weapon to use (remember any weapon that is your only weapon defaults to primary status).
Personally I think the cleric will be a much stronger choice -- better buffs, better domain choices less restrictions: But the druid isn't a bad choice. He does have a lot of spell synergy with the magus (though not on the buffing side) and his other abilities covers the rest of the time when you can't spell combat (which happens a fair deal of the time).
The parts that will make this work:
Shaping Focus Feat -- Ultimate Magic: Treat your druid level as if it was 4 higher for the purposes of wild shape (requires wild shape).
Druid Archetype: Menhir Savant -- Place Magic is useful -- not it doesn't limit what caster level it affects, and is a free action not a swift.
Reincarnated Druid Archetype: General useful -- you can sacrifice yourself once a week if need be -- I wouldn't recommend it regularly but the ability to tell everyone else to "GO!" and know you'll be back is nice.
Urban Druid Archetype: At will Alter Self -- still using weapons, but with a size bonus to Dex or Strength -- not amazing but still useful -- decent domain choices.
The key for druid will be getting the combination of choices just right -- which is going to be harder than it will be for a cleric/magus.
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I don't see how 6th-level magus abilities and 6th-level druid abilities work together well. Your arcane pool will suck as will your wildshape. What am I missing?
My focus is to get wildshape, so I can take natural spell. Given that magus spell list offers a lot of polymorpc spells, it helps in taking advantage of casting while in an alternate from.
I digress though as you could burn metamagic feats or arcana and still + silent spells to cast while in an alternate form.
Druid offers a little more versitility than cleric in my opinion. Especially since you have the option of having a companion and a bonded item (blackblade), I'm also one to use sommon spells as a combat control method. Summoning spells, obviously, are somethign the magus lacks in.
Mystick Theurge though adds to the casting of both spell lists, which gives the magus a lot of clout. Unless I'm mistaken, the Druid spell list is a still a very nice list.
I don't see how 6th-level magus abilities and 6th-level druid abilities work together well. Your arcane pool will suck as will your wildshape. What am I missing?My focus is to get wildshape, so I can take natural spell. Given that magus spell list offers a lot of polymorpc spells, it helps in taking advantage of casting while in an alternate from.
I digress though as you could burn metamagic feats or arcana and still + silent spells to cast while in an alternate form.
Druid offers a little more versitility than cleric in my opinion. Especially since you have the option of having a companion and a bonded item (blackblade), I'm also one to use sommon spells as a combat control method. Summoning spells, obviously, are somethign the magus lacks in.
Mystick Theurge though adds to the casting of both spell lists, which gives the magus a lot of clout. Unless I'm mistaken, the Druid spell list is a still a very nice list.
But Natural Spell doesn't work with polymorph effects, only with Wildshape.
Surely the ability to cast spells (even magus spells) along with the wildshaping ability of up to a 6th-level druid isn't better than playing a straight up magus using polymorph spells and wands?
I believe some people had already made this point before, but I also much prefer straight Magus compared to an EK-gish. Although a Fighter 2/Wizard 8/EK 10 gains +16 BAB and 9th-level spells, those benefits don't kick in until level 20.
Straight magus on the other hand, get its class features all spread out evenly across all levels and therefore is a lot easier to play in a long-term campaign where I'd expect to level up.
I believe some people had already made this point before, but I also much prefer straight Magus compared to an EK-gish. Although a Fighter 2/Wizard 8/EK 10 gains +16 BAB and 9th-level spells, those benefits don't kick in until level 20.
Straight magus on the other hand, get its class features all spread out evenly across all levels and therefore is a lot easier to play in a long-term campaign where I'd expect to level up.
And here you hit it.
Unless your campaign goes to 16+ levels (most apparently don't), the magus lets you be the sword-swingin'-spell-slingin' guy you want to be right away. The EK has to wait for those more powerful spells and can't mix them with attacks as well as the magus.
I'm glad we have both. Which one works best for you depends on your campaign and party makeup.
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I don't see how 6th-level magus abilities and 6th-level druid abilities work together well. Your arcane pool will suck as will your wildshape. What am I missing?My focus is to get wildshape, so I can take natural spell. Given that magus spell list offers a lot of polymorpc spells, it helps in taking advantage of casting while in an alternate from.
I digress though as you could burn metamagic feats or arcana and still + silent spells to cast while in an alternate form.
Druid offers a little more versitility than cleric in my opinion. Especially since you have the option of having a companion and a bonded item (blackblade), I'm also one to use sommon spells as a combat control method. Summoning spells, obviously, are somethign the magus lacks in.
Mystick Theurge though adds to the casting of both spell lists, which gives the magus a lot of clout. Unless I'm mistaken, the Druid spell list is a still a very nice list.
But Natural Spell doesn't work with polymorph effects, only with Wildshape.
Surely the ability to cast spells (even magus spells) along with the wildshaping ability of up to a 6th-level druid isn't better than playing a straight up magus using polymorph spells and wands?
Save for the fact that wildshape mimics the elemental body, beast shape, and form of the dragon spells. I don't call seeing where using those spells wouldn't count for casting. I could be wrong, and if so, I'd still focus on uping the wildshape ability so I would not need to use those spells. A shapeshifting, damage dealing, fairly versital caster is the build. I'm not trying to overly optimize, but focus on an aspect of the Magus spell list that can be complimented by druid abilities.
Though, I wonder can you have a blackblade and an animal companion?
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I believe some people had already made this point before, but I also much prefer straight Magus compared to an EK-gish. Although a Fighter 2/Wizard 8/EK 10 gains +16 BAB and 9th-level spells, those benefits don't kick in until level 20.
Straight magus on the other hand, get its class features all spread out evenly across all levels and therefore is a lot easier to play in a long-term campaign where I'd expect to level up.
Unless of course you want to any style of combat other then one handed weapon....
And really, that is why I keep going back to the EK over the magus. I like sword and board.
I believe some people had already made this point before, but I also much prefer straight Magus compared to an EK-gish. Although a Fighter 2/Wizard 8/EK 10 gains +16 BAB and 9th-level spells, those benefits don't kick in until level 20.
Straight magus on the other hand, get its class features all spread out evenly across all levels and therefore is a lot easier to play in a long-term campaign where I'd expect to level up.
Unless of course you want to any style of combat other then one handed weapon....
And really, that is why I keep going back to the EK over the magus. I like sword and board.
I think two-handed weapon fighting magus archetype is planned for Ultimate Combat so I'm quite happily waiting for the book to come out.
Save that it isn't. Any choice but staying single class is an extremely subpar option for the magus which is already essentially a PrC at level 1.The F/W/EK is the ALTERNATIVE to the Magus. It's for a character who wants to be more of a caster than a magus and a bit more of a fighter and is willing to give up the ability to be simultaneously both to do so.
Save that it can be. While you loose out on Arcana, I think you end up with more bonus feats, an effective 15 lvls in Fighter for the purpose of feats, and one more Iterative attack (Bringning the Spellstrike total to 5, 6 with Haste).
There are costs and benefits each, and I wouldn't be surprised if M/EK ended up being a good enough option for a standard adventuring party.
I'll probably have to read more into the Magus, but besides Heavy Armor Proficiency, the Magus I don't think looses out on too many critical Arcana.
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I think two-handed weapon fighting magus archetype is planned for Ultimate Combat so I'm quite happily waiting for the book to come out.I believe some people had already made this point before, but I also much prefer straight Magus compared to an EK-gish. Although a Fighter 2/Wizard 8/EK 10 gains +16 BAB and 9th-level spells, those benefits don't kick in until level 20.
Straight magus on the other hand, get its class features all spread out evenly across all levels and therefore is a lot easier to play in a long-term campaign where I'd expect to level up.
Unless of course you want to any style of combat other then one handed weapon....
And really, that is why I keep going back to the EK over the magus. I like sword and board.
1) that doesn't help me with my sword and board.
2) unless paizo staff has lost ALL sense of common sense on game balance, don't hold your breath. But then again, the issues with balance in UM seems to indicate that they may have lost all sense of game balance. Lets put it this way, if there is a two handed magus in UC, I'm not buying. I got UM when it came out because I believed that paizo is good at getting game balance and power creep in check. They failed utterly with UM. UM is banned in my games until further notice (no save staggered spell at level 2 and no save lose action spell at level 4?!? Antagonize...umm WTF?!? Cold ice strike is a quickened cone of cold as a 6th level spell). I will NOT be getting UC so blindly.
Save that it can be. While you loose out on Arcana, I think you end up with more bonus feats, an effective 15 lvls in Fighter for the purpose of feats, and one more Iterative attack
You lose three points of Will save, a level of spell progression, three arcana, half your level-derived arcane pool points, 2 from your arcane pool cap (+3 top-out), improved spell recall, heavy armor, greater spell combat, counterstrike, greater spell access, and true magus.
In exchange you get +2 BAB (with one iterative attack), one more bonus feat, spell critical, and eligibility to take a handful of feats.
1) that doesn't help me with my sword and board.2) unless paizo staff has lost ALL sense of common sense on game balance, don't hold your breath. But then again, the issues with balance in UM seems to indicate that they may have lost all sense of game balance. Lets put it this way, if there is a two handed magus in UC, I'm not buying. I got UM when it came out because I believed that paizo is good at getting game balance and power creep in check. They failed utterly with UM. UM is banned in my games until further notice (no save staggered spell at level 2 and no save lose action spell at level 4?!? Antagonize...umm WTF?!? Cold ice strike is a quickened cone of cold as a 6th level spell). I will NOT be getting UC so blindly.
Good news; it's not the UC description that I've read it from- it's this 3rd-party material from Super Genius Games. It also says it's got sword-and-board archetype as well so if you could spare the dime might be worth having a glance.
You lose three points of Will save, a level of spell progression, three arcana, half your level-derived arcane pool points, 2 from your arcane pool cap (+3 top-out), improved spell recall, heavy armor, greater spell combat, counterstrike, greater spell access, and true magus.
In exchange you get +2 BAB (with one iterative attack), one more bonus feat, spell critical, and eligibility to take a handful of feats.
Well then, thats quite a bit more than I anticipated. At least d10 HD means more HP.
But otherwise, its does seem pretty suboptimal.
Well then, thats quite a bit more than I anticipated. At least d10 HD means more HP.
But otherwise, its does seem pretty suboptimal.
Well, as ProfPotts said, you don't even come ahead on hp. The blend just doesn't work all that well.
Now, a Magus 1/Wiz 9/EK 10 can be a plausible alternative to the Fighter 1/Wiz 9/EK 10 build. You trade one BAB, one bonus feat, and 2 hp for a +2 Will save, three cantrip slots, an extra 1st-level spell slot, a small arcane pool, and spell combat.
Magus 2/Wiz 8/EK 10 over Ftr 2/Wiz 8/EK 10 is also plausible, since it trades one BAB, two bonus feats, 3 hp, and eligibility to take 12-level fighter feats for +3 Will save, 4 cantrip slots, 2 1st-level spell slots, a small arcane pool, spell combat, and spellstrike.
And if you want to build something like an arcane ranger/paladin, there's possibly something worthwhile to be built out of a fighter/magus/EK.
Well then, thats quite a bit more than I anticipated. At least d10 HD means more HP.
But otherwise, its does seem pretty suboptimal.
Well, as ProfPotts said, you don't even come ahead on hp. The blend just doesn't work all that well.
Now, a Magus 1/Wiz 9/EK 10 can be a plausible alternative to the Fighter 1/Wiz 9/EK 10 build. You trade one BAB, one bonus feat, and 2 hp for a +2 Will save, three cantrip slots, an extra 1st-level spell slot, a small arcane pool, and spell combat.
Spell Combat only works with Magus spells (well, any spells that's on Magus spell list). So while it indeed is handy, it doesn't differentiate it so much from a straight magus in terms of the said class feature.
Spell Combat only works with Magus spells (well, any spells that's on Magus spell list). So while it indeed is handy, it doesn't differentiate it so much from a straight magus in terms of the said class feature.
Yeah, if you're trying to play a magus, you're best off playing a magus. If you've looked at a magus and you decide you want to play an EK anyway, it might be worthwhile to sub in magus instead of fighter, depending on what you're specifically trying to do.
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Spell Combat only works with Magus spells (well, any spells that's on Magus spell list). So while it indeed is handy, it doesn't differentiate it so much from a straight magus in terms of the said class feature.
The Broad Study Arcana covers that... although you need at least 6 Magus levels (and to already possess at least one level of another spellcasting class) in order to take it, so it kinda' torpedoes any hope of using the Magus as a dip class to gain Spell Combat and Spellstrike for an otherwise Fighter / Wizard / ElK. You could go Wizard 3 / Magus 7 / ElK 10 (to hit a Wizard 12 casting level) I guess, but it doesn't seem like a good idea.
Spell Combat only works with Magus spells (well, any spells that's on Magus spell list). So while it indeed is handy, it doesn't differentiate it so much from a straight magus in terms of the said class feature.The Broad Study Arcana covers that... although you need at least 6 Magus levels (and to already possess at least one level of another spellcasting class) in order to take it, so it kinda' torpedoes any hope of using the Magus as a dip class to gain Spell Combat and Spellstrike for an otherwise Fighter / Wizard / ElK. You could go Wizard 3 / Magus 7 / ElK 10 (to hit a Wizard 12 casting level) I guess, but it doesn't seem like a good idea.
Yeah the only way I can see it working is a hexcrafter magus with a witch dip.
I actually think an Arcane Duelist Bard makes a better Magus than the Magus... but that's a rant for a different thread... ;)
ProfPotts, could you start a thread for Arcane Duelist makes a better Magus than the Magus. I would really like to see your logic.
Doug
I was considering making a multiclass magus for Carrion Crown.
The idea is to start two levels of magus then switch to wizard for 5 levels then go full eldritch knight.
The magus levels would be for spell combat and spellstrike.
What I am wondering is can spells gained as a wizard be used for spell combat/spellstrike IF the spells being used are on the magus spell list.
I saw the Broad Study arcana. Frankly I question why this arcana requires 6th level to use. It's perfect for dipping. The problem is dipping 6 levels in one class is not feasible at all.
Can this work?