Got my copy of Ultimate Magic. The Magus looks awesome! Would you go with the Magus Base Class or Eldritch Knight Prestige Class? Curious about the pros and/or cons.
The EK became obsolete in my opnion, unless you go Magus/EK for some extra BAB... Anyhow, EK was already a bad choice.
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I have always hated the eldritch knight and all the classes like it (arcane trickster, arcane archer etc). I dont feel like waiting for mid to high levels for my character to start playing the way I wanted it to. Magus all the way.
Do you want 6th level spells or 8th-9th? It has to do with what you want your character to do.
I have always hated the eldritch knight and all the classes like it (arcane trickster, arcane archer etc). I dont feel like waiting for mid to high levels for my character to start playing the way I wanted it to. Magus all the way.
I mostly agree with this. I would not dig trying to get to EK starting with a level 1 character. However, I am currently playing in a campaign that started everyone at 15th level. In that circumstance, EK is awesome - honestly it's one of my favorite characters ever.
I was hesitant to say anything bad about EK until I received some supporters. Thanks for your comments. Spells 8th or 9th is not too important. I imagine you could get an incredibly high Armor Class with spells buffs and heavy armor with the Magus.
I think both classes have their place...
The Eldritch Knight is primarily for full casters who want to be better with their swords, or for Fighters who want to dabble in magic without hurting their combat skill too much. It exists to give the man who DECIDES he wants both the chance to do it passably.
The Magus however, is for the man who ALWAYS wanted both, and as such combines the two better than anyone else ever could. He can't outfight the fighter, and he can't outspell the Wizard. However, he can cast spells and attack simultaneously, and his arcane pool allows him a great many tricks up his sleeve that set him distinctly apart from any other 'gish' out there.
Personally, i'm greatly looking forward to playing my Bladebound Hexcrafter at some point soon!
Very well put. :)
I haven't quite read up on everything with the new book. What does the Bladebound Hexcrafter entail?
I think both classes have their place...
The Eldritch Knight is primarily for full casters who want to be better with their swords, or for Fighters who want to dabble in magic without hurting their combat skill too much. It exists to give the man who DECIDES he wants both the chance to do it passably.
The Magus however, is for the man who ALWAYS wanted both, and as such combines the two better than anyone else ever could. He can't outfight the fighter, and he can't outspell the Wizard. However, he can cast spells and attack simultaneously, and his arcane pool allows him a great many tricks up his sleeve that set him distinctly apart from any other 'gish' out there.
Personally, i'm greatly looking forward to playing my Bladebound Hexcrafter at some point soon!
I agree with most (if not all) of these things.
I agree with most (if not all) of these things.I think both classes have their place...
The Eldritch Knight is primarily for full casters who want to be better with their swords, or for Fighters who want to dabble in magic without hurting their combat skill too much. It exists to give the man who DECIDES he wants both the chance to do it passably.
The Magus however, is for the man who ALWAYS wanted both, and as such combines the two better than anyone else ever could. He can't outfight the fighter, and he can't outspell the Wizard. However, he can cast spells and attack simultaneously, and his arcane pool allows him a great many tricks up his sleeve that set him distinctly apart from any other 'gish' out there.
Personally, i'm greatly looking forward to playing my Bladebound Hexcrafter at some point soon!
Me too.
I have always hated the eldritch knight and all the classes like it (arcane trickster, arcane archer etc). I dont feel like waiting for mid to high levels for my character to start playing the way I wanted it to. Magus all the way.
I actually disagree with this statement. Not that I like waiting until mid-levels to play my character, but that an EK has to wait that long. Starting at lv 2, an EK can have proficiencies, Hp, Bab, and spells comparable with the Magus.
The thing I don't like about the EK is that there is no synergy between his sword and his spell. He can do one, or the other, but he can't do both. If built properly the EK can actually out pace the Magus in Hp, Bab, and spells for most levels, but he'll never overcome his fundamental problem.
Not only can the Magus cast and attack at the same time, he gets a host of class abilities, most of them swift actions, that let him use his magic to improve his fighting. A feat the EK can only accomplish with a quickened buff. And everyone knows the troubles an armoured EK has with quickened spells.
I have always hated the eldritch knight and all the classes like it (arcane trickster, arcane archer etc). I dont feel like waiting for mid to high levels for my character to start playing the way I wanted it to. Magus all the way.I actually disagree with this statement. Not that I like waiting until mid-levels to play my character, but that an EK has to wait that long. Starting at lv 2, an EK can have proficiencies, Hp, Bab, and spells comparable with the Magus.
The thing I don't like about the EK is that there is no synergy between his sword and his spell. He can do one, or the other, but he can't do both. If built properly the EK can actually out pace the Magus in Hp, Bab, and spells for most levels, but he'll never overcome his fundamental problem.
Not only can the Magus cast and attack at the same time, he gets a host of class abilities, most of them swift actions, that let him use his magic to improve his fighting. A feat the EK can only accomplish with a quickened buff. And everyone knows the troubles an armoured EK has with quickened spells.
Or just the fact that using a swift action takes away the ONE thing he can do to blend swordplay and magic (spell critical).
Or just the fact that using a swift action takes away the ONE thing he can do to blend swordplay and magic (spell critical).I have always hated the eldritch knight and all the classes like it (arcane trickster, arcane archer etc). I dont feel like waiting for mid to high levels for my character to start playing the way I wanted it to. Magus all the way.I actually disagree with this statement. Not that I like waiting until mid-levels to play my character, but that an EK has to wait that long. Starting at lv 2, an EK can have proficiencies, Hp, Bab, and spells comparable with the Magus.
The thing I don't like about the EK is that there is no synergy between his sword and his spell. He can do one, or the other, but he can't do both. If built properly the EK can actually out pace the Magus in Hp, Bab, and spells for most levels, but he'll never overcome his fundamental problem.
Not only can the Magus cast and attack at the same time, he gets a host of class abilities, most of them swift actions, that let him use his magic to improve his fighting. A feat the EK can only accomplish with a quickened buff. And everyone knows the troubles an armoured EK has with quickened spells.
Actually, with the use of a scimitar, rapier or kukri, you're looking at a 30% chance, more if you're hitting multiple times. Whilst I've yet to play a Eldritch Knight at that level, I suspect that this ability might trigger rather regularly if you build your character to capitalise on it. And failing that, you can always then quicken a spell that debilitates your enemy. Especially with the new metamagic feats in the APG that have effects independent of a saving throw, this becomes a rather effective tactic too-concussive spell, toppling spell and rime spell are particularly good for this imo.
I've mentioned it before, but there does seem to be a level of synergy between the Magus and Eldritch Knight, given that a few of their abilities overlap.
For example, at level 10, half of the Magus' levels count as Fighter levels from then on. Call me out if I'm wrong, but this should stack with the EK's similar ability, which makes it so that its levels can act as Fighter levels.
So should a Magus prestige to EK at say, level 11, that gives him an effective Fighter level of 6 for the purpose of qualifying for feats. There's a number of good combat feats you could then pick up, such as Weapon Specialization and Spellbreaker.
And despite being totally impractical, I do believe a Spellstrike + Spell Combat + Spell Critical + Critical Mastery combo is possible at 20th level. Wasteful, but I'd hate to be on the bad end of two touch spells and two critical feats.
Of course, there is that little obstacle about not being able to add the extra spells to your spellbook... but from what I hear, most GMs here rule zero that away.
It really depends on what you want to do and your play style.
If you are playing in a lower level game... then the Magus is the clear winner. If you are playing in a high level game I think the EK is the winner.
They really do play very differently. Do you want to be able to fight fairly well and cast some spells for defense and extra damage? Then go with the Magus. If you want to be able to cast spells that can really alter the framework of your environment and still be able to hold your own in a toe to toe fight? Then EK is better.
The EK gets more powerful spells and is better at fighting with more HP. But this takes time to develop and he has a hard time doing both at the same time.
The Magus can fight, cast spells, and wear full plate all in the same round... every round. And that is a unique ability for the most part and something I plan on giving a try on my next campaign.
Actually, with the use of a scimitar, rapier or kukri, you're looking at a 30% chance, more if you're hitting multiple times. Whilst I've yet to play a Eldritch Knight at that level, I suspect that this ability might trigger rather regularly if you build your character to capitalise on it. And failing that, you can always then quicken a spell that debilitates your enemy. Especially with the new metamagic feats in the APG that have effects independent of a saving throw, this becomes a rather effective tactic too-concussive spell, toppling spell and rime spell are particularly good for this imo.Or just the fact that using a swift action takes away the ONE thing he can do to blend swordplay and magic (spell critical).I have always hated the eldritch knight and all the classes like it (arcane trickster, arcane archer etc). I dont feel like waiting for mid to high levels for my character to start playing the way I wanted it to. Magus all the way.I actually disagree with this statement. Not that I like waiting until mid-levels to play my character, but that an EK has to wait that long. Starting at lv 2, an EK can have proficiencies, Hp, Bab, and spells comparable with the Magus.
The thing I don't like about the EK is that there is no synergy between his sword and his spell. He can do one, or the other, but he can't do both. If built properly the EK can actually out pace the Magus in Hp, Bab, and spells for most levels, but he'll never overcome his fundamental problem.
Not only can the Magus cast and attack at the same time, he gets a host of class abilities, most of them swift actions, that let him use his magic to improve his fighting. A feat the EK can only accomplish with a quickened buff. And everyone knows the troubles an armoured EK has with quickened spells.
Right....I was just saying that being forced to spend swift actions to cast in armor negates your ability to actually cast quickened spells, or make use of spell critical....or even use Arcane Strike. So, unless you're not wearing armor, it's very difficult (barring a bunch of spells memmed above their level as Still Spells...which is another feat you have to waste in a feat-tight build) to combine spellcasting and swordplay as an EK.
Right....I was just saying that being forced to spend swift actions to cast in armor negates your...Actually, with the use of a scimitar, rapier or kukri, you're looking at a 30% chance, more if you're hitting multiple times. Whilst I've yet to play a Eldritch Knight at that level, I suspect that this ability might trigger rather regularly if you build your character to capitalise on it. And failing that, you can always then quicken a spell that debilitates your enemy. Especially with the new metamagic feats in the APG that have effects independent of a saving throw, this becomes a rather effective tactic too-concussive spell, toppling spell and rime spell are particularly good for this imo.Or just the fact that using a swift action takes away the ONE thing he can do to blend swordplay and magic (spell critical).I have always hated the eldritch knight and all the classes like it (arcane trickster, arcane archer etc). I dont feel like waiting for mid to high levels for my character to start playing the way I wanted it to. Magus all the way.I actually disagree with this statement. Not that I like waiting until mid-levels to play my character, but that an EK has to wait that long. Starting at lv 2, an EK can have proficiencies, Hp, Bab, and spells comparable with the Magus.
The thing I don't like about the EK is that there is no synergy between his sword and his spell. He can do one, or the other, but he can't do both. If built properly the EK can actually out pace the Magus in Hp, Bab, and spells for most levels, but he'll never overcome his fundamental problem.
Not only can the Magus cast and attack at the same time, he gets a host of class abilities, most of them swift actions, that let him use his magic to improve his fighting. A feat the EK can only accomplish with a quickened buff. And everyone knows the troubles an armoured EK has with quickened spells.
Personally, I prefer displacement/improved invisibility/mirror image. And at higher levels, you can even quicken them if you need to.
It really depends on what you want to do and your play style.
If you are playing in a lower level game... then the Magus is the clear winner. If you are playing in a high level game I think the EK is the winner.
They really do play very differently. Do you want to be able to fight fairly well and cast some spells for defense and extra damage? Then go with the Magus. If you want to be able to cast spells that can really alter the framework of your environment and still be able to hold your own in a toe to toe fight? Then EK is better.
The EK gets more powerful spells and is better at fighting with more HP. But this takes time to develop and he has a hard time doing both at the same time.
The Magus can fight, cast spells, and wear full plate all in the same round... every round. And that is a unique ability for the most part and something I plan on giving a try on my next campaign.
I don't think the EK is the clear winner at high levels. The EK will almost always be a spell level up on the Magus, but it doesn't get 8th level spells till 18 or 9th until 20. That's not high level, that's nigh epic.
The EK will NEVER have MORE Hp than the Magus because prestige classes don't get favored class bonuses.
Neither the EK nor the Magus can go toe to toe in melee without buffing first, and the Magus can do it twice times as fast as the EK and STILL get a full attack in.
Personally, I prefer displacement/improved invisibility/mirror image. And at higher levels, you can even quicken them if you need to.
I like those spells too, but at higher levels I find that more than 30% of enemies I face have one of the following:
Tremorsense
BlindSight
Dispel Magic
True Seeing
Anyone of those will easily strip away or bypass all of those spells.
Personally, I prefer displacement/improved invisibility/mirror image. And at higher levels, you can even quicken them if you need to.I like those spells too, but at higher levels I find that more than 30% of enemies I face have one of the following:
Tremorsense
BlindSight
Dispel Magic
True SeeingAnyone of those will easily strip away or bypass all of those spells.
One of the quintessential items for any gish character is a Ring of Counterspells loaded with Greater Dispel Magic. So that part at least you don't have to worry about so much. (And dispel magic can only strip one buff....which I will make that trade if the bad guy uses his action taking ONE of my buffs off). Also, you'll always have overland flight up, meaning tremorsense doesn't help.
Really, you only need to worry about bad guys with true seeing (fairly rare, and as a buff only min/level) and Blindsight (gah...pretty gimping unless you can make your attacks from outside their blindsight range).
I never really liked the Eldritch Knight, and I think the Magus is superior both in mechanics and in flavor. In fact, the Magus is so far superior it basically bends the EK over a table and buggers it from behind!
If I were playing an EK right now I'd ask my GM if I can "re-skin" him/her as a Magus. Just my opinion though.
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In combat, I feel Magus is far more versatile at high level than EK. With the right Arcana, you can decide every round whether you want to use that ray as a melee touch attack, a ranged touch attack, apply it to a melee attack, etc. Or if you want to self buff and attack an enemy on round 1, you totally can with spell combat. And you can spend arcane pool to buff your weapon based on the encounter, or to spontaneously prepare a spell (or recall one cast earlier that day), dispel magic, use spell turning (sort of), spontaneously quicken/maximize something as fits the situation, and so on. There are just so many little combat tricks and so much room for thinking and innovating on the fly.
Out of combat, based on what spells the Magus has access to (without spending arcana to gain new ones, at least), the high level EK is almost definitely going to suit more situations. Or it would, if it wasn't filling most of its spell slots with combat buffs and so on, as it more than likely is. Which brings it back to the Magus, who, despite having prepared mostly buffs and touch spells, has the ability to spontaneously prepare spells by spending 2 points. Obviously, for a caster who has no hard limit on spells known, spontaneous preparation, despite its cost, is still a big deal. (Yes, I know wizards can replicate this with spells or spell-completion items, but, on an individual basis those aren't typically as versatile, which is my point.)
Still, though, the 20th level EK says to the 20th level Magus "Time Stop." So there's that.
Still, though, the 20th level EK says to the 20th level Magus "Time Stop." So there's that.
That's why the EK is still a viable class. Like most PrCs, it's not much fun until higher levels, but for those willing to endure the low-level suckage, it pays off.
My EK player is only 4th level, but he still wants to remain an EK, not a magus. He's the only wizard in the group, and focuses more on spellcasting than fighting in a melee-oriented party. He just likes the fact that he's not as helpless as a regular wizard in a fight, even at his level.
I'm currently playing a wizard 1/fighter 1 with an eye toward EK. My DM has indicated that he's open to me reskinning my PC. However, I'm still kinda torn. Wizard/fighter has arcane bond: spontaneously casting any spell in your spellbook 1/day is *nice*. Magus gets something similar but not until 4th level. Also, hand of the apprentice is fun. And then, I'd have to ditch my breastplate. ASF is a pain but the higher AC has been a lifesaver. I'd also lose a couple of feats (granted, one is scribe scroll. . . ) and have a narrower skill set. Decisions, decisions. . . .
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I'm currently playing a wizard 1/fighter 1 with an eye toward EK. My DM has indicated that he's open to me reskinning my PC. However, I'm still kinda torn. Wizard/fighter has arcane bond: spontaneously casting any spell in your spellbook 1/day is *nice*. Magus gets something similar but not until 4th level. Also, hand of the apprentice is fun. And then, I'd have to ditch my breastplate. ASF is a pain but the higher AC has been a lifesaver. I'd also lose a couple of feats (granted, one is scribe scroll. . . ) and have a narrower skill set. Decisions, decisions. . . .
Allow me to present the following suggestion:
Dragon bloodline, take 4 levels of Dragon Disciple. So...
Fighter 1/Sorc4/DD4
In the meantime, take eldritch heritage, abyssal, and improved eldritch heritage.
That will give you a total of +3 or 4 Natural Armour, +4 STR AND up to +6 innate bonus to STR. Your attack bonus should be keeping up with a fighter at this stage. Now round up the remaining levels with Eldritch Knight.
When you hit level 6 spells, take Vengeful Outrage. Cast it on yourself before going into a fight with an enemy (choose the BBEG of course): you take penalties if you're not in combat for the duration, but as long as you're in combat, you gain +6 morale to STR. Oh and you can polymorph to gain size bonuses to str too. With these alone, you should be keeping up with a fighter in terms of damage output, if not exceeding him. At the highest levels, you will have +10 STR constantly and be able to get ANOTHER +16 STR from spells (vengeful outrage + form of the dragon, with contingency you can cast both in 1 round). If you start with 18 STR (easily) and get a belt +6, and add +5 over 20 levels, you're looking at 55STR, or a +22 STR MODIFIER!
And THAT's something a magus can't do. =p
If you plan your lower level spells such that you can run some of then constantly at higher levels, you can have spells like heroism, cushioning bands, false life and magic circle against evil on you 24 hours a day, negating the need to cast them just before combat. Oh and I strongly recommend quicken spell and spell perfection: terrible remorse. It's going to be errataed, but even the errataed version is ridiculously strong. As long as you have spell slots above 4th level, 1 enemy not immune to mind affecting spells will be thoroughly boned. And...you guessed it. Magi don't get vengeful remorse either. =)
I like the EK myself but do see the Magus as also cool... but one of the Bardic Archetypes also sort of hits the same mark as well.
One thing they DID screw up on the EK is they should have made spells cast while using the Armoured Caster feats NOT require a swift action for the EK as a class feature.
Its something easily house ruled in OR in UC, the guide could have a new feat that allows for heavy armour use AND also removes the swift action tax... sure its a 3 feat tax (rather than just a feat that removes the penalty, it would be nice if they got something else for burning 3 feats in this) but I can't see them errata-ing my bit above at this point. On second thought I think UC is also more or less done as well so I can't see that either.
I agree with this at least. EK was poorly done. The capstone in particular does not work with either arcane strike or armour casting. But I still think that if carefully built, an EK/DD can hold his own.
And THAT's something a magus can't do. =p
A 55 Strength? No, maybe not, but a magus can ALSO take eldritch heritage feats and pump strength in a number of different ways. Getting a 30 or possibly a 40 by high levels will be relatively easy. Stack on melee/spell combo attacks and he doesn't need the extra strength that the Eldritch Knight has.
Both classes have their advantages, the Magus is deadly in melee combat (especially with spell perfection to quicken every round) and the EK has better defensive options and can fry his enemies with rays.
... SNIP The EK will almost always be a spell level up on the Magus, but it doesn't get 8th level spells till 18 or 9th until 20. That's not high level, that's nigh epic. ...SNIP
Epic is 21st level. While the AP's and many games do not got to 20 every campaign I run does. I would like to think other games out there also go to 20th level. (I consider high level to be 15+... low level is 1-5, 6-10 is medium level, and 11-14 is name level)
Additionally an EK Wizard is 2 levels behind a normal wizard (and one level behind a sorc) in gaining spell levels. They get 8th level at level 17 and 9th level at level 19. (Unless I am really confused they lose one caster level for fighter 1 and one level caster for EK 1.) Of course if they choose to have more levels of fighter (or anything else), then that is of course going to lower caster level.
And of course anytime I or anyone else says "the clear winner" please take that with a grain of fanboy salt. ;) Those are opinions and subject to RP and personal play style choice.
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Both classes have their advantages, the Magus is deadly in melee combat (especially with spell perfection to quicken every round) and the EK has better defensive options and can fry his enemies with rays.For which spell would you take Spell Perfection?
Any good touch range spell, if you chose a lower level spell you can cast it all day long, and add nice metamagic feats. Depending on your access to wizard spells the following spells come to mind.
I am not shure if your weapon focus feat would apply double if you deliver the spell using spellstrike.
Shocking grasp is a solid choice, especially with magical lineage. With Intensify Spell thats 10d6 (20d6 with a crit.) Since thats still a level 1 slot, you can empower/maximize it. With enough pearls of power you can keep it up all day long.
A quick vampiric touch every round can save the healer some work, you will be almost unkillable in combat.
Enervation could be pretty effective too - if you spend the arcana to get it.
The main thing, is that with spell combat and haste, your quickened touch spell results in up to 6 melee attacks per round (1 more if you multiclass into a high BAB class like EK).
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I actually prefer the EK...better spell list and can use any fighting style I wish as long as I don't bond my weapon (in which case two handers are out). The BIG downside is that not only do they lack any real method of combining sword and sorcery, they actually have a lack of actions needed to do even the basics of using their cap stone efficently...never mind to do it right, you'd need 3 swifts (one for AAT, one for AS and one for if the capstone goes off). That is a pretty idiotic design on paizos part and the fact that it hasn't been fixed yet shows exactly what they think of prestige classes and this archetype in general. The magus spell list is disapointing to me. Yeah the bread and butter gish spells are mostly there, but I like using those odd combos and with the magus, it's all just too straight forward. Also being locked into a one handed combat style while a balance factor just doesn't do it for me.
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I actually prefer the EK...better spell list and can use any fighting style I wish as long as I don't bond my weapon (in which case two handers are out). The BIG downside is that not only do they lack any real method of combining sword and sorcery, they actually have a lack of actions needed to do even the basics of using their cap stone efficently...never mind to do it right, you'd need 3 swifts (one for AAT, one for AS and one for if the capstone goes off). That is a pretty idiotic design on paizos part and the fact that it hasn't been fixed yet shows exactly what they think of prestige classes and this archetype in general. The magus spell list is disapointing to me. Yeah the bread and butter gish spells are mostly there, but I like using those odd combos and with the magus, it's all just too straight forward. Also being locked into a one handed combat style while a balance factor just doesn't do it for me.
You can gain access to any wizard spell of level six or lower, though.
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You can gain access to any wizard spell of level six or lower, though.
In exchange for an arcana...which is a pretty limited amount. Even if I traded them all in, I still would not have all the spells I like. They also really should have lowered some wiz spells for magus (like for bards). Giantform at least should be something the magus should be able to cast.
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Heres hoping that they'll look at least giving one Free swift action OR allow Arcane Armour Training no longer being required for EKs... seriously, it wouldnt require that much and that one free swift action to activate a closed group of feats or capstone ability wouldnt throw the balance out of whack.
Considering how vehemently Mr. Jacobs is againt anything that makes the EK even remotely usable...don't hold your breath.
They also really should have lowered some wiz spells for magus (like for bards). Giantform at least should be something the magus should be able to cast.
This. A couple of spells were made available at a slightly lower level, but nearly to the extent that the Bard, for example, gets them. The Bard gets at least one 9th level spell, while the Magus just gets hosed. Afraid of unbalancing the class, I suppose, but disappointing in an otherwise good design.
The 19th level ability shouldn't have been changed IMHO, either.
I prefer the Eldritch Knight. Mostly for the base attack bonus, the non-caster class' class features (I prefer taking Barb for instance), and the thrill of seeing it all start to take shape, bit by bit.
The Magus... boring.
?? Care to go into more detail?
Considering how vehemently Mr. Jacobs is againt anything that makes the EK even remotely usable...don't hold your breath.
This may be a reference to how this issue has been brought up multiple times by many players and GMs on the forums, but has never been addressed or even acknowledged by the team. They seem to want to pretend they never made this error, or refuse to see it as a flaw in their design in the first place.
Ultimate Magic added something that lets an eldritch knight use their abilities more effectively: wordcasting.
Using the careful meta word lets a wordcaster cast that wordspell without somatic components (i.e., can cast in armor without chance of arcane failure). Unlike the Still Spell metamagic feat, meta words do not (necessarily) increase the level of the spell slot (only the minimum level of the spell); since careful has a minimum level of 1, the only spells that would have their levels raised would be 0-level word spells. Granted, a wordcaster can only use (caster level / 2) meta words per day, but it still gives a lot of flexibility (especially for sorcerers, who can cast wordspells spontaneously).
Yes, you still run into the issue of Quickened spells vs. Arcane Strike vs. Spell Critical using a swift action, but it mitigates the requirement for Arcane Armor Training/Mastery for armored spellcasting without bumping spells up a spell level.
Personally I think the supposed 'issue' between quicken spell and spell critical is a non-starter.
Full attack first -- if you crit then use spell critical -- if you don't crit just use the spell you have prepared with quicken spell.
If I'm not planning to cast a spell in the round I use arcane strike -- if I plan on using a spell in the round somehow I don't use arcane strike. I am not going to cast every round so by realizing I'm not going to cast every round I can choose to use which ever swift action resource is my best choice for that round.
Honestly this is no different than any other action type -- people might as well cry because, "If i use a standard action to cast a spell I can't full attack" or "If I use a standard action to cast this spell I don't have a standard action to swing my sword!"
It's ridiculous.
Honestly this is no different than any other action type -- people might as well cry because, "If i use a standard action to cast a spell I can't full attack" or "If I use a standard action to cast this spell I don't have a standard action to swing my sword!"
That's not the same thing at all. This is random chance. IF you attack for a round, AND manage to score a critical hit, you get a free spell UNLESS you happened to not guess that you would score a critical hit this round and used arcane strike. They trigger off of the same action, except they don't trigger at the same time, and are mutually exclusive, which makes them really hard to use.
The only choice is "do I feel lucky this round?" which isn't a choice at all.
It's ridiculous.
Honestly this is no different than any other action type -- people might as well cry because, "If i use a standard action to cast a spell I can't full attack" or "If I use a standard action to cast this spell I don't have a standard action to swing my sword!"That's not the same thing at all. This is random chance. IF you attack for a round, AND manage to score a critical hit, you get a free spell UNLESS you happened to not guess that you would score a critical hit this round and used arcane strike. They trigger off of the same action, except they don't trigger at the same time, and are mutually exclusive, which makes them really hard to use.
The only choice is "do I feel lucky this round?" which isn't a choice at all.
It's ridiculous.
It's not the same:
I have my round I know I want to cast a quicken spell this round. So I full attack. IF I critical then I don't need to use the spell I prepared with quicken spell -- instead I can use a different spell (of higher level too) which means I got a free use of quicken spell without trying. IF I don't critical I go ahead and use the quicken spell.
Either way I cast a quickened spell -- so I knew what I was doing going into the action.
IF instead I just want the extra +4 to damage I activate arcane strike -- I knew I'm not casting a quickened spell this round.
In both cases I know what I'm doing and what I'm going to get this round.
It isn't random chance it's me choosing what path I want to take.
Choice isn't random (well okay for me sometimes it is) -- it's just a matter of what choices I make to leave myself open for the option I want to use this round.
People that can't understand that should probably stay away from classes that allow such choices.
It is exactly like any other action choice -- all of which are at least partly random -- you never know if the action is going to be the best choice for you this round or even if it is going to be effective or prevent you from taking some other action that perhaps you should have taken instead. In any case you get what you choose.
We might as well complain that the fighter can't trip, disarm and dirty trick all at the same time with the same attack.
In fact it is a lot like the many such choices the magus has to make:
Do I full attack and cast this spell, or simply full attack or simply cast this spell?
Do I use my swift action for:
Arcane accuracy
Arcane Strike
Weapon Enhancement
Critical spell
or something else?
The magus has the exact same choices to make many times.
I have my round I know I want to cast a quicken spell this round. So I full attack. IF I critical then I don't need to use the spell I prepared with quicken spell -- instead I can use a different spell (of higher level too) which means I got a free use of quicken spell without trying. IF I don't critical I go ahead and use the quicken spell.
So in the incredible corner case where you absolutely need to cast a spell, but aren't particular picky about which one you cast, and you also like to full attack, then it's all good?
Well. I agree.
I find it a much more likely scenario, though, that you are full attacking and a free bonus spell would be awesome but isn't so important that you should probably just stop and cast the spell in the first place. In that case you either have a great crit rating and never risk using arcane strike, or you don't and you never bother betting on Spell Critical.
And I'm sorry, but critical hits ARE random chance. You can do things to affect that chance, but ultimately it's still depending on a dice roll.
Now, arcane strike and arcane armour training (ignoring EKs for a moment) is an example of fine synergy. If you're casting a spell, you need to ignore the ASF, so you need arcane armour training. If you're attacking, you are not casting spells so you need arcane strike. If you have a quicked spell ready, you need to prepare for that. Those are choices you can make depending on what your plans are for the round. These are your choices and you have a reasonable amount of control over them. Adding a random-but-maybe-much-better-IF-it-happens option just mucks everything up.
Don't take arcane strike then. Seems pretty easy to me -- after all you have to choose to take it or not in addition to if to use it or not. If you always want a chance to use a quicken spell then don't take arcane strike.
For me it's a question of what situation do I want to set up -- nothing is guaranteed (after all the spell could fail, or I could wiff on the attack rolls) -- it's all about stacking the odds.
Finally at the levels we are talking about it is quite possible you'll have spell perfection for a spell -- which you can now quicken for free at all times, meaning you can fall back on that or spell critical dependent on what happens in the full attack.
I simply don't see how anyone can say the magus doesn't have the same problems.
Don't take arcane strike then. Seems pretty easy to me -- after all you have to choose to take it or not in addition to if to use it or not. If you always want a chance to use a quicken spell then don't take arcane strike.
Well, I'd agree with that if you got Spell Critical at level 1 instead of level 10. You have probably been using Arcane Strike quite frequently for your entire EK career, and only your capstone ability doesn't mesh with it. At all.
But I get what you're saying. If have a quickened Slow that I want to cast, I can full attack, and if I'm lucky I'll get to cast it for free. If not, I will expend my readied spell. In that situation you're fine. But that's just once. I'm talking about the rest of the fight.
Random Spell Criticals are awesome, but you have to prepare for them by forfeiting every possible action that could block them from happening. You can't use arcane strike. You can't use arcane armour training. All on the off chance that Spell Critical becomes available. If you do use arcane strike, or something else, and are then unlucky enough to score a critical hit, then Spell Critical is unavailable and that sucks. Basically, you have to either hope that you crit a lot, or for the most part ignore your capstone ability.
I don't like that.
I don't think magus suffers nearly as much from that. They still have action economy. They still have to choose which is better in a given situation, but they don't (far as I can tell) have abilities that randomly make choices you made earlier in the round much worse than you though they would be when you made them.