I got ultimate Magus recently and frankly I love it, there are a lot of interesting things in there. The Magus looks like a lot of fun, especially with the black blade option (big Elric fan). The lack of prestige classes was a little disappointing but given that the base classes actually stand on their own quite well I don't really see that as an issue.
In fact only one thing really kept me from putting the book at or near the level of the APG, and that was the witch section. I am currently playing a witch in a pathfinder game, we're using the adventure path 'Legacy of Fire' and I have been enjoying the character and was looking forward to some new hexes, mostly so I could find a replacement for 'slumber' as it's driving the DM a tad nuts.
When I looked over the hexes to say I was disappointed would be an understatement, hexes like Feral speech an prehensile hair were pretty interesting and water breathing actually looks pretty good. The problem though is that a lot of the hexes are either nigh useless or only really valid for an NPC.
Scar and beast of ill omen, for example, are both problematic for different reasons. With scar I'm spending a hex slot to get something that has very few real uses, if any. Beast of Ill Omen has two problems in my mind, one is that it's less useful than say Evil Eye in mechanical terms but it also leaves the familiar a bit vulnerable and since the familiar is also your spellbook that can be a bit of an issue.
On the other side you have things like Cook Person, Child scent, etc. where the idea is clearly for these to be used by the stereotypical evil witch that lives in gingerbread houses and devours overfed bavarian children. Now I actually think these are kind of interesting, I even got an idea for a villain looking at Cook Person, but they aren't usable for the player. I get that the game isn't all about the players but when it seems like many of the hexes are inferior to what was in the APG or are unusable for a normal game things get a tad problematic.
Some of the problem is simply this, many of the hexes given ended up being impractical for player use if they didn't fall under too weak or villain fodder. For example there is a hex gives a person damage over the span of minutes where they get fresh saving throws, for a player this is questionably useful since odds are they'd focus more on immediate battle hexes and if minutes are kicking in then more likely the entity in question as plot armor or can likely make the save. In either case, not very helpful.
I want it to be known that I really did enjoy the book overall and I like the witch, but with the stuff listed the hexes were almost universally disappointing. Some of the archetype stuff was good, but I wish we had gotten either better hexes or more archetypes. And before anyone complains about 'roll-playing' or any of that crap, my issue here is that the witch material felt very lacking compared to the other stuff in the book, and given Paizo's record otherwise I found it rather annoying.
The content for the Witch did take me back to the days when NPC classes were being published in Dragon Magazine. I know some people like to mix it up by playing evil characters but I'd still baulk at the idea of my character cooking children.
You do know the origins of the concept of a which, yes? I mean, you're hexing people and cackling and have the potential to join a coven alongside hags (which are invariably evil), and your power stems from a mysterious and likely less-than-benign patron.
Always remember, for all the class powers and abilities, you are a WITCH.
Actually, I'm perfectly happy using these thigns as flavor text. The fact that Ultimate Magic isn't synonymous with "ultimatedeathraykillystuff that breaks the game" is fine by me, because it means that it adds flavor and options, rather than trying to do what 4e and 3.5 did which was "make everything better so that you HAVE to buy more books to keep up with the times and power levels of the characters!"
I would much rather have cool and interesting than powerful. Powerful is already covered in the APG and the Core books. Those two books let you be as deadly as you want. Being more deadly is pointless when you can already build characters in core that can kill in one or two rounds of combat against CR = their level. Minmaxing is silly as well - so you can kill something in one round instead of two. Oh boy!
I can only hope Ultimate Combat is similar in design.
Flavor and options are wonderful, and I'm not asking for things that are game breaking. What I would like is stuff that is at par with the hexes in the APG. Unfortunately a lot of the hexes are either impractical, unusable (cook person) or too weak to be viable.
When the abilities are just flavor text that don't do anything then why bother making a person have to take them, just make it so that your arcane marks look like scars or something.
When I buy a gaming book I am buying it for more options, not necessarily a more powerful character but for the ability to make a character that is fun to play and both thematically and mechanically interesting. While some of the hexes were very interesting thematically (I personally love the baba yaga hex even if I may never use it) many of them were mechanically bland and disappointing.
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Actually, I'm perfectly happy using these thigns as flavor text. The fact that Ultimate Magic isn't synonymous with "ultimatedeathraykillystuff that breaks the game" is fine by me, because it means that it adds flavor and options, rather than trying to do what 4e and 3.5 did which was "make everything better so that you HAVE to buy more books to keep up with the times and power levels of the characters!"
+1. This. There's already an actively supported game where virtually every power is combat-oriented.
Monks feel the witch's pain on the imbalance of "good-evil" options. New evil toys for the monk, none good.
It would have been nice to have new coven suggestions that didn't revolve around hags. Fey, benign aberrations(flumphs exist, don't claim the concept isn't possible), strange celestials...
Agreed, I figure the monk will probably get some nice toys in Ultimate Combat.
And to the people who think that putting in effects that are impractical for normal use are great, tell me if you'd like chapters on mechanics for a new class or system that are unworkable or impractical and took up space that could have been better used for something else.
I did not ask for a hex that let me kill someone at 40 paces, nor did I complain that I wasn't able to get hexes that were BETTER than the APG. My complaint was that almost all the hexes were worse and many of them were impractical for use either due to their general theme; cooking a sentient creature and eating them in a cauldron for example. My issue is that the witch section felt very poorly done compared to the others, I feel sympathy for the monk fans but at least ultimate combat is likely to offer them some new feats or options, at least in theory.
This may sound weird from me if you have been following the big UM threads, but I actually have to disagree.
Poison steep (with beguiling gift especially), beast of ill omen, and unnerve beasts seems very powerful to me. Handing out poison, bane-ing a creature and making enemy pets attack there owners/ causing random bear attacks just sound useful, no more annoying druid villains unless they want there pet t-rex to eat them.
Not to mention prehensile hair, child-scent, and water lung seem to have great utility.
All of this and there very witch like, I must say I approve.
This may sound weird from me if you have been following the big UM threads, but I actually have to disagree.
Poison steep (with beguiling gift especially), beast of ill omen, and unnerve beasts seems very powerful to me. Handing out poison, bane-ing a creature and making enemy pets attack there owners/ causing random bear attacks just sound useful, no more annoying druid villains unless they want there pet t-rex to eat them.
Not to mention prehensile hair, child-scent, and water lung seem to have great utility.
All of this and there very witch like, I must say I approve.
Water lung is pretty good and I thought I mentioned as much, if not, then I will say it here. The poison thing I am a bit iffy on, I suppose I can see it working but that seems to be a little overly involved and situational.
The making a druids pet attack seems somewhat unlikely based on the hex, most DMs would probably say it doesn't work that way though that is a neat idea.
Beast of Ill omen...I can see where it might be nice, my issue with it is that it makes my little living spell book an easy target or the question of them noticing my little scorpion.
Child scent I can't see much use for, but yes, I do like prehensile hair and probably will be taking it if only because I like having extra hands.
My imopression so far is that, although Ultimate Magic is a great book it falls just short of APG. Some of the options are either flatout crap (Vows) or doesnt really work thematically as intended (Dragon Shaman). But whatever misteps in the book, consider it against any of the old 3.X splatbooks, those usually had 3-5 things i would potenially use, whereas in Ultimate magic i can only find 3-5 things i would NOT use. That is a win to me :-D
Oh yes, agreed. As mentioned my only real complaint is with the witch, admittedly I didn't look too closely at the vows when I was reading through it the first time but looking at it now..there are probably some things that need to be worked on.
Water lung is pretty good and I thought I mentioned as much, if not, then I will say it here. The poison thing I am a bit iffy on, I suppose I can see it working but that seems to be a little overly involved and situational.
The making a druids pet attack seems somewhat unlikely based on the hex, most DMs would probably say it doesn't work that way though that is a neat idea.
Beast of Ill omen...I can see where it might be nice, my issue with it is that it makes my little living spell book an easy target or the question of them noticing my little scorpion.
Child scent I can't see much use for, but yes, I do like prehensile hair and probably will be taking it if only because I like having extra hands.
DM alteration shouldn't be the deciding factor for an ability so try to judge it without that.
As far as beast of ill omen goes, fluff-wise and mechanics wise the enemy has no reason to attack your familiar after using this unless they know you are a witch, so for those of us that carry a fox on our shoulder this isn't hard to use. Trying to hide your familiar? yeah maybe pick a different hex, but that is your subjective playstyle, not a weakness of the hex.
Child scent is more situational, but it can still be useful if your searching for people/creatures, more often then not young will be around. This one does require some extra creativity. you could always combine it with feral speech as a way to always find some witness in an area.
I can concur that witches got the short end of the stick in ultimate magic.
Some of the new hexes are ok, but some of them are outright TERRIBLE: child scent (Micheal Jackson powers, ACTIVATE!), Scar (PURE fluff, which isn't a bad thing I suppose, if it didnt take up a hex slot, but since it does, why would any PLAYER witch take it?), Nails (the Witch gains SECONDARY MELEE ATTACKS!?.......), Unnerve beasts (too situational), Beast of ill-omen (put my familiar in danger? really?), Cook people (works ok, but evil as all the nine hells), Hoarfrost (takes too long to be useful), Infected wounds (Hoarfrost's necromantic brother).
The archetypes are good, but thats about it in the Witch chapter for Ultimate magic (However, that isn't enough to make me love the Witch class less).
Well if I remember correctly after the APG came out some people asked for those classical witch hexes...
On the up side one hex makes up for all those I others, I am in love:
Ice Tomb (Su): A storm of ice and freezing wind envelops the target, which takes 3d8 points of cold damage (Fortitude half ). If the target fails its save, it is paralyzed and unconscious but does not need to eat or breathe while the ice lasts. The ice has 20 hit points; destroying the ice frees the creature, which is staggered for 1d4 rounds after being released. Whether or not the target’s saving throw is successful, it cannot be the target of this hex again for 1 day.
Unless the ice is destroyed - and I realise, in Legacy of Fire this could happen within a rather short time - the target is trapped forever.
It reminds me of Queens Blade, with a throne room full living victims encased in magical amber :)
Beast of Ill-Omen: Well nothing says that you have to send your familiar away with this hex. Just use the hex and enjoy a "free" bane effect on the first enemy that sees the monkey sitting on your shoulder.
Child Scent:Ok in the words of the immortal admiral "It´s a trap", if wouldn´t consider taking this one for a PC ever.
Feral Speech: Would have taken this in Kingmaker an Serpents Skull if the group doesn´t have someone to cast speak with animals.
Nails: Well its a bit better than Improved Unarmed Strike, and you could put poison on your nails...not really worthless just circumstancial.
Could be fun for a Witch 2 / Rogue 18 ^^
Poison Steep: Quite powerfull actually, but in this case the power comes from the wording.
Since the poison last for 24 hours you have the time (and btw it doesn´t cost money) to poison several rather tiny bits of food, like a single slice of salami, cucumber, cheese, spoon full of Mayonnaise and 2 separate slices of bread. Combine them into a sandwich and use beguling gift. ^^
Prehensile Hair: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tangled
Scar: ... ... ... ... well if the witch is into:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scarification
Swamp Hag: Depends on the campaign
Unnerve Beasts: Needs clarification, and maybe some handle annimal dcs, could be usefull if the campaign has sufficient people on horseback.
OP, a lot of stuff you complain about is in fairy tales. I suppose the authors wanted to borrow from that concept.
I saw the Witch section and immediately knew it was more for DMs than Players. Plus, you know, it's always good to explore a concept fully, even on the cheesy side of things. ;)
Monks feel the witch's pain on the imbalance of "good-evil" options. New evil toys for the monk, none good.
There are only two spells Qigong can use that are new and evil... Blood Crow Strike and Ki Leech.
Am I missing something?
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My imopression so far is that, although Ultimate Magic is a great book it falls just short of APG. Some of the options are either flatout crap (Vows) or doesnt really work thematically as intended (Dragon Shaman). But whatever misteps in the book, consider it against any of the old 3.X splatbooks, those usually had 3-5 things i would potenially use, whereas in Ultimate magic i can only find 3-5 things i would NOT use. That is a win to me :-D
Exactly; we'd typically use a handful of spells and feats, plus a PrC or two. And that is woefully little useful content for the price of a hardcover book. There were exceptions, such as certain FR supplements, but pretty soon we decided to stop buying 3E splatbooks. Even if UM wouldn't measure up to APG, it's still probably way better than 99% of 3E splats (by anyone's standards).
Monks feel the witch's pain on the imbalance of "good-evil" options. New evil toys for the monk, none good.
There are only two spells Qigong can use that are new and evil... Blood Crow Strike and Ki Leech.
Am I missing something?
That Blood Crow Strike, at least is really good for monks, but 'closed off' to the average PC monk by being [Evil] for reasons which are not fully explained. And that no similarly good and [Good] option is provided to them.
My opinion on the witch stuff in the Ultimate Magic is they got some of the best stuff...either power wise or flavorful. Though I should warn you I don't think every feat...every skill point...or whatever have to be spent optimaly...so take it w/ a grain of salt( though it should be noted I play with some twinks, min/maxer/ etc and I still hold my own...go figure).
The hexes I love.
Child-Scent: Heck I mighht take child scent for my witch as she lives on the street and protects the local street kids...it mght be helpful to know when they are about or if they get kidnapped. Also note it does not say human children...it says humaniod. If you are tracking down a band of orcs to their homes...picking up the scents of their kids might giove you a hint. Though granted...it depends the character.
Beast of Ill omen is awesome (okk better than nothing) protection for you familiar. If somebody starts targetiing it...it is looking at it. It gets bane. Also 60' hardly puts the familiar in the front lines.
Poison Steep: is very useful...with Beguiling gift( which makes me thinks that this hex was more put in to make that spell useful) and for non-combat situration.
Prehensile Hair...is just too awesome flavor wise I would spend two hexes on it.
Hidden Home: Is great...especialy with the later hex Witch's hut...
Anyway...I love the new hexes.
But I think the best thing is Hedge Witch. It allows the witch to take on the role of the healer( making in my opinion the second best healer class in the game) and after 3rd level you never have to learn a cure spell ever again.
Beast Bond is also pretty good.
They also got some great new feats and spells.
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That Blood Crow Strike, at least is really good for monks, but 'closed off' to the average PC monk by being [Evil] for reasons which are not fully explained. And that no similarly good and [Good] option is provided to them.Monks feel the witch's pain on the imbalance of "good-evil" options. New evil toys for the monk, none good.
There are only two spells Qigong can use that are new and evil... Blood Crow Strike and Ki Leech.
Am I missing something?
After they made the Bladebound Magus so that the sword has your alignment it seems like they really dropped the ball on Blood Crow Strike. They knew they were trying to make a Street Fighter style monk that can shoot fireballs at you and the one power they give them is evil? What the hell is up with that?!? Dropped the ball Paizo!
I can concur that witches got the short end of the stick in ultimate magic.
Some of the new hexes are ok, but some of them are outright TERRIBLE: child scent (Mark Foley powers, ACTIVATE!), Scar (PURE fluff, which isn't a bad thing I suppose, if it didnt take up a hex slot, but since it does, why would any PLAYER witch take it?), Nails (the Witch gains SECONDARY MELEE ATTACKS!?.......), Unnerve beasts (too situational), Beast of ill-omen (put my familiar in danger? really?), Cook people (works ok, but evil as all the nine hells), Hoarfrost (takes too long to be useful), Infected wounds (Hoarfrost's necromantic brother).
The archetypes are good, but thats about it in the Witch chapter for Ultimate magic (However, that isn't enough to make me love the Witch class less).
Others have addressed the complaints more creatively than I.
I, however, only wish to point out one particular bit of bad taste that demanded notation/parody. At least my example is proven, not hearsay.
Well if I remember correctly after the APG came out some people asked for those classical witch hexes...
On the up side one hex makes up for all those I others, I am in love:
[...]
Prehensile Hair: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tangled
Prehensile Hair reminded me more of a witch Bayonetta-style:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/BayonettaDon't know, the whole hex just screamed "Bayonetta" at me...
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Don't know, the whole hex just screamed "Bayonetta" at me...
You should probably watch The Bride With White Hair and perhaps even The Forbidden Kingdom.
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Don't know, the whole hex just screamed "Bayonetta" at me...You should probably watch The Bride With White Hair and perhaps even The Forbidden Kingdom.
That reminds me I need to watch The Forbidden Kingdom again.
Child scent is again a classic witch archetype which dates from Grimm's fairytales. A lot of the stuff in APG and other books isn't usable by players either if you're running PFS which excludes evil characters. You're looking at this only from a player persepctive. I see this as very useful tools for GMs or those who do want to run evil campaigns.I can concur that witches got the short end of the stick in ultimate magic.
Some of the new hexes are ok, but some of them are outright TERRIBLE: child scent (Micheal Jackson powers, ACTIVATE!), Scar (PURE fluff, which isn't a bad thing I suppose, if it didnt take up a hex slot, but since it does, why would any PLAYER witch take it?), Nails (the Witch gains SECONDARY MELEE ATTACKS!?.......), Unnerve beasts (too situational), Beast of ill-omen (put my familiar in danger? really?), Cook people (works ok, but evil as all the nine hells), Hoarfrost (takes too long to be useful), Infected wounds (Hoarfrost's necromantic brother).
The archetypes are good, but thats about it in the Witch chapter for Ultimate magic (However, that isn't enough to make me love the Witch class less).
Well there is a book for that. Called the Game Masters Guide. If you are going to make something only for Gamemasters, It should be in their line of books. (Game Masters Guide, Bestiaries, Campaign books, Dungeon Magazine.)
Like hell, A Game Master is quite capable of saying the witch villain can smell children if he wants to. This is like going to a Buffette and only being allowed to eat the brussle sprouts because the rest of the food is for the cook.
Child scent is again a classic witch archetype which dates from Grimm's fairytales. A lot of the stuff in APG and other books isn't usable by players either if you're running PFS which excludes evil characters. You're looking at this only from a player persepctive. I see this as very useful tools for GMs or those who do want to run evil campaigns.I can concur that witches got the short end of the stick in ultimate magic.
Some of the new hexes are ok, but some of them are outright TERRIBLE: child scent (Micheal Jackson powers, ACTIVATE!), Scar (PURE fluff, which isn't a bad thing I suppose, if it didnt take up a hex slot, but since it does, why would any PLAYER witch take it?), Nails (the Witch gains SECONDARY MELEE ATTACKS!?.......), Unnerve beasts (too situational), Beast of ill-omen (put my familiar in danger? really?), Cook people (works ok, but evil as all the nine hells), Hoarfrost (takes too long to be useful), Infected wounds (Hoarfrost's necromantic brother).
The archetypes are good, but thats about it in the Witch chapter for Ultimate magic (However, that isn't enough to make me love the Witch class less).
Well there is a book for that. Called the Game Masters Guide. If you are going to make something only for Gamemasters, It should be in their line of books. (Game Masters Guide, Bestiaries, Campaign books, Dungeon Magazine.)
Like hell, A Game Master is quite capable of saying the witch villain can smell children if he wants to. This is like going to a Buffette and only being allowed to eat the brussle sprouts because the rest of the food is for the cook.
Id like to plus 1 this to high heaven but that would be time consuming.
+1
I really loved the Ultimate Magic guide, it had great options for all the classes. Though alot of back and forth about witches in here I think alot of the new hexes are pretty cool and not every ability has to be purely offensive and a smart player will be able to think of new ways to use an ability in cool ways. Heck the Child Scent can be used for a good witch who helps lost children, find their way home... or something like that.
What I was slightly disappointed about was the lack of no new oracle curses, was pretty sure they said their would be :(