And would have a caster level of 24 with a DC of +8 but would be able to match the sorcerer in casting in all circumstances. It would also have the effect of giving me a possible 15+ spells per day to cast fireball with out of my fourth, fifth and sixth level spell slots.
Pah - figured I'd screw up some of the math. Though I'd question whether you got the DC doubling out of the 'Eldritch Heritage' chain - as the feat just lets you take the power. The DC increase comes from the power, which means it should not be doubled. Which equates to us having equal DC increases?
What my Sorcerer has in his favor (over your first build) - Eschew Materials, Empower Spell, Still Spell, Silent Spell, no reliance on a spellbook and able cast 6 more fireballs.
On spell penetration, my sorc gets +8, while your wizard gets two rolls and takes the best. Each is better in different circumstances, so I'd call that a wash without referring to a specific situation.
How is that 'better' than the sorc at casting fireball? - you are better at casting from scrolls, but not directly.
Well first I think we can agree it isn't worse -- and again his DC is higher. IF we avoid all the eldritch heritage stuff we end up with the wizard having more spells and better damage (that +10 from evoker) at the same DC and a wash on spell penetration (I agree on a wash here).
So either the wizard has higher DC or he has more spells per day with echo spell, and can cast just as often in the same circumstances -- in both cases he has better damage due to his class feature.
The big thing about the scrolls is the fact that is it more fireball at lower cost than what the sorcerer can match, and to better effectiveness than the sorcerer can match as well. It isn't *huge* but it is another advantage when it comes to casting fireballs. I do agree it is indirect though, the sorcerer could do similar with a staff... but it will cost him more and be harder to keep up.
@Interzone -- I disagree. The sorcerer has more stuff -- however with proper application of his many more spells known the wizard isn't going to go down nearly as easily as you seem to want to suggest. At best it's going to be a slugfest no matter what... but in a slug fest the wizard is going to have more options and more effective use of those options than the sorcerer on a round by round basis.
It depends how many feats you are investing...
If it is a lot, the sorcerer is going to win out in a lot of ways other than spell selection , i.e. DC's, defense, initiative, penetration, etc etc etc...
Simply by having more feats to put into those things.
If the wizard does not put many feats into Spell Specialization, then sure they will be pretty much even in all those respects, but then you aren;t really doing what you were saying anyway (having much spontaneous casting ability) so it's irrelevant.
Spending Feats to do something the other guy already does= strictly weaker than otherwise, regardless of class.
I guess what it boils down to is I feel you are underestimating the power of feats.
@ Abraham: I can't believe I forgot about Echoing Spell! Thanks for reminding me. If I swap out Empowered Spell for that, I can now double the number of Fireballs my sorc can cast :) - so my Sorc now has 12 more fireballs than your wizard.
I'm willing to accept that the Wizard can cast Fireball well, but the Sorcerer can do it more effortlessly and without the same degree of crippling focus.
Your Wizard has prepared all of his spell slots as Fireballs (or with the Amulet of Magecraft - Evocation spells) - my sorcerer just woke up. Your Wizard is limited to Evocation spells that day, my sorcerer still has access to every other spell in his list (regardless of school) to cast.
My Sorcerer has the advantage of greater metamagic flexibility (over your 1st build), or higher DC (over your second).
The scrolls aren't at lower cost as my Sorcerer can cast his fireballs for free day in day out, whereas your Wizard will burn through gold each scroll (albeit not much on a one day comparison, but linearly increasing with each day).
Back to you :P
Edit - and if you want to get Greater Spell Specialization for spontaneous casting of Fireball without the Amulet - that will cost you two more feats.
Edit Edit - hmm, Abraham's post disappeared, so he must be revising the build (which may make some of the above incorrect / irrelevant)
Actually I still maintain that your DC is not higher -- your claim otherwise is patently not valid since the feat specifies that it is only other feats that gain the increase -- not class abilities. If you want to invalidate the first build to simply avoid further complication I'm okay with that but as it stands those are feats giving the wizard his abilities, and not feats giving the sorcerer his.
Also -- Got to call foul on you -- you specified that any ability other than casting fireball doesn't count.
You can not pooh pooh the scroll ability away with one hand while claiming similar ability having importance for the sorcerer with the other.
Either it is all about the fireball or it isn't. You've spent just as many feats, just as many slots, and just as many class abilities as I have to get to the same place -- and if you go with half orc we need to know what feat you are dropping, and to note that the wizard will have more HP since his favored class bonus isn't going into damage (and the sorcerer isn't going to have the human favored class bonus spells known) -- that is if it isn't all about the fireball.
EDIT: I didn't take down the post -- I don't know what happened to it.
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Before anyone thinks I'm bashing on the sorcerer, don't get me wrong. I like sorcerers. I'm just being impartial. In my own games, sorcerers get their spells at the same rate as wizards (effectively they are treated a +1 level higher for purposes of spells per day and spells known), which helps a lot. However, my friends and I have already been discussing the effects of these new spontaneous options, and they're definitely in the wizard's favor.
On a side note, another house rule I have is allowing spontaneous casters to use pearls of power as well, which helps a lot. The pricing guidelines say it would be the same value for a sorcerer-version as well, and it only seems fair to me.
I'm rapidly coming to a similar conclusion that sorcerer (and oracle) spell progression should not be penalized compaed to their prepared caster buddies.
I'm hopefull that the powers that be will add this to their notebook of things to fix in Pathfinder 2.
In the food for thought (that doesn't really matter much) what does a sorcerer's spells know and spells per day table look like at level 20 in your game?
Relevant Text of Eldritch Heritage: 'You gain the first-level bloodline power for the selected bloodline'
Relevant Text of Improved Eldritch Heritage: 'You gain either the 3rd-level or the 9th-level power (your choice) of the bloodline you selected with the Eldritch Heritage feat.'
Relevant Text of Greater Eldritch Heritage: 'You gain an additional power from the bloodline you selected with the Eldritch Heritage feat'
None of these feats give you the DC increase, they all say that you gain an additional power - which is therefore not a feat and therefore not doubled. Making my build and your first equal on DC. My build is higher on DC than your second one that lacks the Eldritch Heritage chain.
If you want me to goto Half-Orc instead to even up the damage, I could safely lose Silent Spell and still be ahead of you in the metamagic states by one (vs the first build).
PS - I'm not in the same place as you. I am ahead. You are behind in metamagic and Eschew Materials on your first build, and behind on DC in your second build.
For clarity - re-post of build with adjustments. Found another error too, though no change to abilities at 20th level.
Half-Orc Sorcerer Arcane Bloodline
Abilities:
1 -- Spell Penetration
Bloodline Arcana -- +1 DC to any spell with metamagic applied that increases the spell level
3 -- Greater Spell Penetration
5 -- Maximized Spell
7 -- Intensified Spell
Blood Feat -- Spell Focus (Evocation)
9 -- Greater Spell Focus (Evocation)
11 -- Elemental Focus (Fire)
13 -- Greater Elemental Focus (Fire)
Blood Feat -- Still Spell
15 -- Quicken Spell
Bloodline -- School Power (Evocation) - +2 DC to Evocation spells
17 -- Echoing Spell
19 -- Spell Perfection (Fireball)
Blood Feat -- Combat Casting
Bloodline -- Arcane Apotheosis
I cheated myself a feat in my earlier builds -- if you look you'll see I completely left off my 15th level bonus feat. So here is a rebuild using the PFS wizard 'archetype' (for lack of a better word) and not carrying the scroll master baggage.
Half-Elf(Evoker-admixture)
B -- Skill Focus(knowledge(arcana))
B -- Spell Focus(evocation)
1 -- Intensify Spell
3 -- Eldritch Heritage(arcane)
5 -- Spell Specialization(fireball)
B -- Maximize Spell
7 -- Greater Spell Focus(evocation)
9 -- Greater Spell Specialization
B -- Quicken Spell
11 -- Improved Eldritch Heritage(arcane -- 3rd level ability ironically)
13 -- Echoing Spell
15 -- Spell Perfection(fireball)
B -- Empower Spell
17 -- Greater Eldritch Heritage(arcane)
19 -- Elemental Focus(fire)
B -- Greater elemental Focus(fire)
CL: 26
DC: +10(for ease of agreement, though I still say that I wouldn't have the ability without the feat, ergo the feat is what is providing the ability)
Metamagic Feats: 5
Fireballs Per Day: 36
Leaves you with 6 more castings a day difference if you go with half-orc and (Echo Spell meaning a possible 12 more per day). Which is right where it all comes to a head really -- we are now matched on everything else that involves throwing a fireball.
::: Eschew materials doesn't matter -- it's all about the fireball remember?
Not quite done, but it is bed time.
Excellent - so we agree on my premise. So long and thanks for all the fish :)
CL: 26
DC: +10(for ease of agreement, though I still say that I wouldn't have the ability without the feat, ergo the feat is what is providing the ability)
Metamagic Feats: 5
Fireballs Per Day: 36
Leaves you with 6 more castings a day difference if you go with half-orc and (Echo Spell meaning a possible 12 more per day). Which is right where it all comes to a head really -- we are now matched on everything else that involves throwing a fireball.::: Eschew materials doesn't matter -- it's all about the fireball remember?
Not quite done, but it is bed time.
Small changes puts the sorcerer a bit higher than the wizard:
Half-orc Sorcerer Arcane-Draconic Bloodline
Abilities:
1 -- elemental focus (fire)
Bloodline Arcana -- +1 DC to any spell with metamagic applied that increases the spell level
Bloodline Arcana -- + 1 per die damage to spells dealing fire damage.
3 -- Spell penetration
5 -- Maximized Spell
7 -- Intensified Spell
Blood Feat -- Spell Focus (Evocation)
9 -- Greater Spell Focus (Evocation)
11 -- Elemental Focus (Fire)
13 -- Greater Elemental Focus (Fire)
Blood Feat -- quicken spell
15 -- Spell perfection (fireball)
Bloodline -- School Power (Evocation) - +2 DC to Evocation spells
17 -- Greater Spell Penetration
19 -- Echoing Spell
Blood Feat -- Combat Casting
Bloodline -- Power of Wyrms
In terms of power his fireballs are superior:
DC: +10 or +11 (when increasing the level of the spell), compared to the evoker's +10.
Damage: +25 or +30 (if intensified) per fireball, compared to the evoker's +10.
If the sorcerer should focus on flexibility:
Cross-blood him with primal (amongst other choices) and he gets the choice of changing his fireballs into another damage type (albeit not as powerful)
In terms of power his fireballs are superior:DC: +10 or +11 (when increasing the level of the spell), compared to the evoker's +10.
Damage: +25 or +30 (if intensified) per fireball, compared to the evoker's +10.
Nice use of the crossblooded -- Primal would be nice but the admixture subschool means the wizard is already doing that with more energy types...
Though I have been fooling around with an idea to use crossblooded on either elemental Air and Marid to get two energy types to switch between. With that and choosing fire and acid spells (the more common energy types) I should be able to switch out to the energy type I need with little trouble.
I removed a post that was doing pretty well right up to the insult tacked on at the end.
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This is an unwinnable argument. There is a lot the Sorcerer can do that your theory Wizard can't, but you've rule zero'd that anything the Sorc has beyond the Wiz is no big deal and who cares anyway? Fine, you win. You can build a Wizard that does everything you personally want a Sorcerer to do, so play a Wizard. Me? I really like the Bloodline stuff and think spending >500,000 on pearls of power instead of other nifty magical baubles is foolish and wasteful.
+5
I think to a point, Abraham is right. The wizard does come out ahead of the sorcerer pretty easily. Mind you, I still like sorcerers, and think they're worth playing if you want to (I rolled an arcane sorcerer just recently), but wizards really are just better.
In my last post, I pointed out that most sorcerers don't actually have a lot more spells per day than a wizard (only a net +1, and they actually have a -2 or worse at odd levels). They also have fewer spells known.
Sorcerers begin play with 2 1st level spells known, and then receive an additional .5 spell per level (so at 3rd level they finally have 3 1st level spells known), whereas wizards gain 2 spells per level of their choice. So a 3rd level wizard can have 4 1st level spells and 2 2nd level spells, as desired, without adding to their spells manually.
Sorcerers begin with eschew materials, which is nice, while wizards begin with scribe scroll which is also nice. Wizards might pickup Eschew Materials if they want to, but a sorcerer won't gain much for scribe scroll because it's best used for utility spells you don't normally use (make a scroll of knock and store it away for when your party comes to a locked door and there's a bigamus maximus chasing you down a hallway, for example).
Just like with scrolls, items like wands and staffs are more useful to the wizard to craft. Simply because they can craft a wider amount of spells into them to use as needed, whereas the sorcerer would be expending a greater amount of resources to do what he already does every day. A sorcerer who knows fireball probably won't benefit that much from crafting a wand of fireball; but a wizard who crafts a wand of fly and then prepares fireball is doing well.
There's also the fact with the ability to spontaneously cast, the wizard's versatility increases dramatically. Druids and Clerics are good examples of how useful limited spontaneous casting can be, and wizards are no exception. Now the wizard could happily spam their favorite spells without the need the memorize them, allowing them to prepare for an even larger number of situations. This also combos well with Spell Mastery (master a different set of spells, while being able to sacrifice them to cast your favorite spells if needed).
To be honest I think the best blasting sorcerer build (at present) is Rime-Blooded. The target of any cold spells cast by the sorcerer (or one target for area spells) must make a fortitude save or be slowed for one round as a free kicker effect. Part of what one should do with a sorcerer is play on the bloodline abilities that a wizard can't really duplicate easily. But that is part of that focused build bit mentioned earlier.
Add in Rime Spell from UM, and crossblood him with marid, you could get very dangerous.
So this is a bit of my problem with UM:
Human Wizard(generalist)
Arcane Bond(amulet)
Feats:
B -- Spell Focus(Evocation) -- (PFS variant wizard)
1 -- Spell Focus(Transmutation)
H -- Spell Specialization
3 -- Spell Specialization
B -- Spell Focus(Abjuration)
5 -- Spell Specialization
7 -- Spell Specialization
9 -- Greater Spell Specialization
B -- Quicken Spell
11 -- Spell Specialization
13 -- Spell Specialization
15 -- Spell Specialization
B -- Persistent Spell
17 -- Spell Specialization
19 -- Spell Specialization
B -- (whatever)Equipment: Amulet of Magecraft (set to conjuration)
*****************************************
The above wizard has 9 spells he can spontaneously cast and an entire school of magic he can do so from and he can change which school of magic every day. Every time he hits and even level he can change all of his spontaneous spells known out at the same time as opposed to the sorcerer's one spell every even level.
In addition he has 6 levels worth of free spontaneous metamagic use per day.
So, is this still the case?
If a Wizard wants to spend 10 feats to get 9 spontaneous spells, I don't find that unbalancing. The sorcerer gets more like 40 (or more), so no toes are being stepped on.
As for the Amulet of Magecraft, if anything, I think that it decreases versatility.
After you pick a school for the day, you basically have to dedicate slots for casting only spells of that school. It's like being a specialist, but without the extra slots.
Query. I saw it mentioned that wizards can get bloodlines. How? Sorry for what is likely a newbie question.
Holy thread necromancy, Batman!
The posts above are referring to the Eldritch Heritage, Improved Eldritch Heritage, and Greater Eldritch Heritage feat chain to gain access to some of the sorcerer bloodline abilities.
-TimD
I know it's necro but I find it funny since this thread was made:Paragon Surge was released.
A half-elf Sorceror who knows this spell, easily out "wizards" a wizard in spell knowledge, in addition to having all their shiny blood line powers at full level. With, more spells per day, even counting blowing a 3rd level for it.
Yes it's cheesy. But it totally does make being a wizard look silly by comparison.
Do note that devs have stated that Paragon Surge should not allow that kind of thing. No official errata so far, however.
I know it's necro but I find it funny since this thread was made:Paragon Surge was released.
A half-elf Sorceror who knows this spell, easily out "wizards" a wizard in spell knowledge, in addition to having all their shiny blood line powers at full level. With, more spells per day, even counting blowing a 3rd level for it.
Yes it's cheesy. But it totally does make being a wizard look silly by comparison.
Paragon surge is only available to Half-Elves, and to humans who take Racial Heritage (Half-Elf). it is no different in power from pulling out a freaking scroll. the only difference is you are giving up 2 spell slots, instead of a handful of coins.
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Do note that devs have stated that Paragon Surge should not allow that kind of thing. No official errata so far, however.
Yes, it's perfectly fine to give wizards (and other classes) access to sorcerer abilities, but God forbid sorcerers ever get something that allows them to simulate wizard mechanics.
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Yes, it's perfectly fine to give wizards (and other classes) access to sorcerer abilities, but God forbid sorcerers ever get something that allows them to simulate wizard mechanics.
Because we all know wizards can freely choose from every spell ever published with a 1 round prep time.
As for scrolls: any class can use those. My fighter can UMD scrolls. Sorcers don't even need to invest the skill points.