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I know these books are big and have a lot of bits in them (oh how do I know), but nobody mandates that you use every part of them in every one of your games. I myself pick and choose depending on the campaign and my mood. You should too. Its your game after all.
You know, it just dawned on me that this...thought...that the publishing company is suppose to be responsible for how much content is in one's rpg may stem from folks playing video games.
In the so-called "old days" of AD&D and earlier, the GM was the last arbiter of what rules were used -- and not used -- in her game. Players kowtowed to the decision and moved on.
Now we seem to have a generation of gamers, both GM and players, whom look to the publisher not only to arbitrate what each rule means but even what rules are used in the games. Supplements are now considered "core", and the GM is regulated to a role as a "mouthpiece" to the rules, not its arbiter for the campaign.
You know, it just dawned on me that this...thought...that the publishing company is suppose to be responsible for how much content is in one's rpg may stem from folks playing video games.
In the so-called "old days" of AD&D and earlier, the GM was the last arbiter of what rules were used -- and not used -- in her game. Players kowtowed to the decision and moved on.
Now we seem to have a generation of gamers, both GM and players, whom look to the publisher not only to arbitrate what each rule means but even what rules are used in the games. Supplements are now considered "core", and the GM is regulated to a role as a "mouthpiece" to the rules, not its arbiter for the campaign.
Makes sense to me.
But I look at it another way. It's not an obligation to manage rules being foisted upon the publisher. Rather, they have better tools to communicate the game design which is used by tens of thousands of people. Designing a game to be played by thousands simply has different parameters than game design had back in the day.
Players aren't mere spectators here. At least with Paizo, we have a line of communication back to the creators; something computer games utilize too! So if you are an active participant you will be designed for.
On the whole I think it's a good thing. It runs against certain old-school sensibilities, but the beauty of old school is that it cannot be destroyed. You can always play old-school if you want.
I really want a book that lets you play all dragons. ;)
The issues for me on the AP non core stuff not being reprinted was the fact several people at paizo seemed down right hostile to the Idea of having somewhere on the back cover "You need x book to use this adventure" heck not even a link to the PRD was wanted or thought to have been warranted. "the back cover is to crowded" I was told..really two crowded for small print, one little line?
Not everyone that buys the Ap's comes to this message board or any gaming forum at all. I didn't think it was to much to ask for a warning that you could no longer play with just the core books alone.
To me it is dishonest not to tell someone what books they will need to use a product.
It's not on the cover, or even the back cover, but the books required to use an AP volume are listed on the credits page of the Adventure Path volume in question. (It also erroneously reports that they are all online at paizo.com/prd--true for everything except Bestiary 2, but as stated elsewhere, that is certainly on the docket.)
It's not on the cover, or even the back cover, but the books required to use an AP volume are listed on the credits page of the Adventure Path volume in question. (It also erroneously reports that they are all online at paizo.com/prd--true for everything except Bestiary 2, but as stated elsewhere, that is certainly on the docket.)
Well, that seems to have put a nail in that particular coffin.
Except stores that shrike wrap the damned thing. Funny thing every other gaming company puts that info on the back where you see it before you buy.
How often do you look at the credits page of something before you buy it to see what books you need? Or do you look on the back cover.
Except stores that shrike wrap the damned thing. Funny thing every other gaming company puts that info on the back where you see it before you buy.
How often do you look at the credits page of something before you buy it to see what books you need? Or do you look on the back cover.
We don't control the fact that stores choose to shrink wrap books (that's their decision), but the information is within the book--perhaps asking your retailer to remove the shrink wrap so you can take a look at the book beforehand might work? (Presumably they have the ability to shrink wrap it again in this instance, but that might not be the case. It shouldn't hurt to ask though. :) )
I can certainly pass along the suggestion that the book's requirements be printed on the back cover, but I can't promise anything.
Except stores that shrike wrap the damned thing. Funny thing every other gaming company puts that info on the back where you see it before you buy.
How often do you look at the credits page of something before you buy it to see what books you need? Or do you look on the back cover.
I've never seen any Paizo book shrinkwrapped, and since I've moved recently, and work travelling all over the country, I can honestly say that in 6 different cities, at 8 different gaming stores, I've never seen a Paizo book shrinkwrapped.
I know you do not control what a store does. But it has been standard practice in gaming for as long as I have been playing to put that on the back. That is where you check, that is the place that tells you the level of the adventure anyhow.
How many other game companies have you seen hide that info after all? Last time I brought this up i was told it was not needed. Which sorry but that is just dishonest to me.
Anyhow this is not a topic for his thread, sorry for the derail.
If you are obviously very angry, you might want to take a step back and relax. This is something on which people have strong opinions both ways and I don't think it won't do much good if one puts out posts that are full of emotion. I would suggest you hold off on that post and pull it back to look at it when you feel less angry about it.Heheh. I found the juxtaposition of your post's content and your avatar to be rather amusing.
In any case, I remain confused by what the people do want who don't want more books, and if they're not intending to buy more books why they care?
And yes, I do understand the concerns of the Adventure Path crowd - I just don't agree with their concerns. Sorry :)
To be completely fair, I just choose the avatar because it matched the word that my name looks like. And I picked that for my name because it is really my name :)
I don't think that the most (because for my sanity I only skimmed the thread briefly) arguments that have been made are really focusing on that the book releases this year has felt too focused on player options and that more player options books are quickly going to be giving diminishing returns for them as far as usefulness, their desire for them, and other various factors. If Paizo just keeps making books full of player options, then that book would be less beneficial for that person, so the suggestion is to try to push the RPG book line to somewhere that will continue to benefit them and the most customers overall.
My first post in the thread was not intended to be an argument one way or another, it was just a reminder that posting while angry, more often than not, produces lower quality posts.
I look forward to Ultimate Combat. I hope it has a section focusing on aerial combat. Especially from hot air balloons.
I would love to see some unique setting books and expanded planar books, basically books filled with information on where I can send my players besides their basic home plane. Pathfinder has done a good job making each of the lands in the Pathfinder universe to be basically self-contained settings in and of themselves, but I would still like to see some setting books. Also, I may be unique in this desire, but I'd love to see more Bestiaries ;). More monsters and other beings to fight is always fun. Maybe Paizo could even release an entire Celestial Bestiary and cover the weakness that has been plaguing mainstream RPGs since their inception. That's my 2 cents anyway.
Wow, that was a lot of ugliness to read, and eventually skim/skip.
Yeah, I definitely agree with the person who said -1 to the OP and -1 to all the people who would like their opinion of "I don't want more rules or options" to rule the day.
Campaign-based books don't hold a lot of interest for me. That being said, I wouldn't advocate that it was time to stop producing such books. That would be a disservice to the people that DO enjoy them.
See how easy it was for me to take other people into consideration?
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I know you do not control what a store does. But it has been standard practice in gaming for as long as I have been playing to put that on the back. That is where you check, that is the place that tells you the level of the adventure anyhow.
How many other game companies have you seen hide that info after all? Last time I brought this up i was told it was not needed. Which sorry but that is just dishonest to me.
Anyhow this is not a topic for his thread, sorry for the derail.
Seeker, there seems to be some Evil Governmental Conspiracy here. Your gaming group is deliberately denied Internet access, the books at your LGS are being shrink-wrapped, Paizo is publishing some filthy Asian Super Powers book... It's New World Order taking over, I tell ya.
You know, it just dawned on me that this...thought...that the publishing company is suppose to be responsible for how much content is in one's rpg may stem from folks playing video games.In the so-called "old days" of AD&D and earlier, the GM was the last arbiter of what rules were used -- and not used -- in her game. Players kowtowed to the decision and moved on.
Now we seem to have a generation of gamers, both GM and players, whom look to the publisher not only to arbitrate what each rule means but even what rules are used in the games. Supplements are now considered "core", and the GM is regulated to a role as a "mouthpiece" to the rules, not its arbiter for the campaign.
Video games are about as old as RPGs, first of all. With video game RPGs coming out beginning in the mid 80s, about 10 years in. They're not some newfangled contraption that have showed up in the last 5 years and changed everything.
Second of all, "Can I use x from Y book?" was as frequent a question I heard when I played AD&D with my friends as it is now. Perhaps even more frequent back then, as the players I play with now are usually mature enough to deal with a "no."
I keep hearing about this magical time when the GM was overlord of all who lived and players were meek, submissive pawns in the GMs game which first, sounds awful, and second, sounds highly, highly unlikely. Players are allowed to have opinions and often it's a good thing that they do, in my personal experience. (And I am saying this all as a GM.)
I'm one of the people who don't like a million player option books because I just get TIRED of the "can I have X?" conversation. I understand why players do it, and I've done it myself, in all honesty. I'm tired of figuring out whether it's worth it to learn a whole new book or not, and I'm tired of couching "no" diplomatically enough that the player doesn't feel put out (and I admit, I tend to approach GMing from the standpoint of not explaining why I say no, but give a reason for why I can't say yes). But one of the reasons I'm TIRED of it is because I've been hearing it first as a player and now as a GM for decades (over 10 of which have I been a GM for various systems).
If there ever really was this "magical moment" where you actually saw players "kowtowing" to the GM's decision, is it a fair guess to say you were all children at the time (10 or so, maybe?) and still, by the nature of being children, more accepting of authority? If I am wrong, I apologize. But the only time I've seen any gamers say, "But those are the rules and you HAVE to!" they were under 12.
One of the reasons I see supplements being considered "core" was because game books themselves started including references to other splat materials. WotC did this a lot---the Player's Handbook II referenced classes in non-Core books and offered suggestions for builds for them, etc. There was a quiet implication of, "Oh, you want to fully use this book? Then you really need this book and this book too." The hope I am sure was that it would help sales, always the prime concern for a for-profit industry.
One of the concerns for Paizo's products is how the supplements get reflected, if they do at all, in the Adventure Paths. Because if they do, for players who play Adventure Paths, then those books DO in fact become "core" to them, and it is the publisher dictating that (however gently), NOT the GM or players at that point. It's an extremely legitimate concern to take into consideration. I don't think it's necessarily a right or wrong thing to do---but it is an issue that needs to be acknowledged and addressed.
RPG Superstar 2009 Top 32, 2010 Top 8
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One compromise I might suggest for overwhelmed DMs?
A UA style checklist.
When UA came out, WotC had in the back (and kindly put up in a PDF) a checklist of all the rule options listed in UA. A GM could just check off which rules he is/isn't using and give them to the players "You want to use the APG? Ok, I've read over these sections and said ok. You want to use UM? Well I'm comfortable with the Magus, but haven't read much else."
If it was a fillable, saveable form, it would even be great for PBP/internet games. "just go to x website for what I'm allowing."
(Yes, this doesn't help PFS GMs, but the 'bring the book' rule helps, as does remembering PFS supports the game, not the other way 'round)
I know you do not control what a store does. But it has been standard practice in gaming for as long as I have been playing to put that on the back. That is where you check, that is the place that tells you the level of the adventure anyhow.
How many other game companies have you seen hide that info after all? Last time I brought this up i was told it was not needed. Which sorry but that is just dishonest to me.
...and once upon a time the level of the adventure used to be on the front of a module...and on the inside on the credit page as well. So nice try limiting your scope in order to better back your argument there bub.
Also flat out accusing Paizo of dishonesty because things arent as you specifically want them? CLASSY.
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In any case, I remain confused by what the people do want who don't want more books, and if they're not intending to buy more books why they care?
In organized play, you don't control what is allowed at the table. It's tough to get through all the rules from a hardcover before you get surprised by it at the table. Especially now that Mark is adding sources to the additional resources on the release day.
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I'm all for mega option books. They only release a few a year so it's no big deal to me. Plus it's probably their best selling products and you can't fault Paizo for trying to make a buck and keep the cash flow going. I got Ultimate Magic and I like it quite a bit. I think I'm archetype burnt out and I hope to see more Prestige Classes in the future.
I would rather see a rulebook that helps you dial up and down magic then a setting. Settings dont help a big chunk of groups. A way to handle the mechanical and world building issues that occur when you try to do something to the magic item and spellcasting system would be way more useful in my opinion.I want a low magic setting as in Iron Kingdoms level low magic. I want it more than I want to see epic rules.I just wanted to mention that I will be buying and probably even using UC and UM.
This thread was intended to be a discussion of what other options there are for rulebooks going forward. There were some really good suggestions along the way, I'd rather not see them missed for the sheer volume of vitriol that churned up.
I just want to +1 this again. It was mentioned by myself and others at various points in this, now huge, thread. A book that actually allows for an adjustment to existing magic mechanics, either dialed up or down, would be on my must purchase list. Even if I had to leave my cardboard box in sub-saharan Africa and beg for change for a solid year. ;)
In organized play, you don't control what is allowed at the table. It's tough to get through all the rules from a hardcover before you get surprised by it at the table. Especially now that Mark is adding sources to the additional resources on the release day.
In any case, I remain confused by what the people do want who don't want more books, and if they're not intending to buy more books why they care?
Then that should be dealt with within organized play. The game as a whole should not suffer because of the limitations of that kind of game. Talk to the people who run pathfinder society and come up with a solution where the problem actually is. One does not cut off a hand because a finger is broken. You fix the finger.
When UA came out, WotC had in the back (and kindly put up in a PDF) a checklist of all the rule options listed in UA.
That was pretty cool.
Ah yes the Gygax era (rest his soul) The DM ruled all and if you didn't like it youd explode with fire radiation level drain disruption with no way to ressurect. personally i just threathen them with worse and worse plains of the abyss
See how easy it was for me to take other people into consideration?
Because clearly the only way to disagree is to be inconsiderate? I'm also curious how "I get my way, you don't get yours" is considerate.
But really, why bother at this point? It's obviously too time consuming/difficult to bother to understand what is actually being said. Alas, human nature.
Ah yes the Gygax era (rest his soul) The DM ruled all and if you didn't like it youd explode with fire radiation level drain disruption with no way to ressurect. personally i just threathen them with worse and worse plains of the abyss
heh I used to know a guy who kept Ravenloft on his shelf and would point to it if some players got out of hand. Wouldn't say anything just point to it.
Oddly he never had to point twice in the same game section :)
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RPG Superstar 2009 Top 32, 2010 Top 8
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Ah yes the Gygax era (rest his soul) The DM ruled all and if you didn't like it youd explode with fire radiation level drain disruption with no way to ressurect. personally i just threathen them with worse and worse plains of the abyssheh I used to know a guy who kept Ravenloft on his shelf and would point to it if some players got out of hand. Wouldn't say anything just point to it.
Oddly he never had to point twice in the same game section :)
Metagame story time!
I was running a game in the Realms. I had a fog bank roll in and after an encounter with a 'ghost ship' (from the Savage Frontiers suppliment) the party got seperated. I ran upstairs and got my Ravenloft boxed set and sat it down on the table. The next thing the 'seperated' party ran into were Dopplegangers. They killed them all (with some panic, as players were playing either their characters or their dopplegangers) and spent the rest of the game session lamenting they were 'doomed' because they were in Ravenloft.
Finally at the end of the night, they stumble into the town. They ask where they were. The town guard explains they're 50 miles south of...
Waterdeep.
Bonus point. Two of the characters had NWP (2e) in Astrology or Astronomy and never thought to check the stars.
See how easy it was for me to take other people into consideration?Because clearly the only way to disagree is to be inconsiderate? I'm also curious how "I get my way, you don't get yours" is considerate.
But really, why bother at this point? It's obviously too time consuming/difficult to bother to understand what is actually being said. Alas, human nature.
I think you need to re-read the post.
Campaign-based books don't hold a lot of interest for me. That being said, I wouldn't advocate that it was time to stop producing such books. That would be a disservice to the people that DO enjoy them.See how easy it was for me to take other people into consideration?
So he is saying he doesnt like the campaign books (presumably the chronicles and companion lines), but he ISNT asking for them to be stopped because he doesnt like them. He just wont buy them, and let those who like them buy them and use them. It isnt inconsiderate to disagree, it is inconsiderate to not want something to exist because you dont want it, when clearly there are others that do want it to exist.
Though I definately think this thread flew of the handles because unfortunately, there were in fact several posts of 'stop producing rulebooks because I dont want anymore'. And while it was a small portion of the posters, it did cause an escalation that brought the thread waaaay off topic, because people (myself included) react quite strongly to such non-sense posts. And I think Justifiably so.
Ah yes the Gygax era (rest his soul) The DM ruled all and if you didn't like it youd explode with fire radiation level drain disruption with no way to ressurect. personally i just threathen them with worse and worse plains of the abyssheh I used to know a guy who kept Ravenloft on his shelf and would point to it if some players got out of hand. Wouldn't say anything just point to it.
Oddly he never had to point twice in the same game section :)
God I dont miss ravenloft, seriously I dont. I remember playing a version of it very early in my gaming career...I stopped naming my characters after the 4th session. I started calling them Fighter 4, Wizard number 3 etc.
Ah yes the Gygax era (rest his soul) The DM ruled all and if you didn't like it youd explode with fire radiation level drain disruption with no way to ressurect. personally i just threathen them with worse and worse plains of the abyssheh I used to know a guy who kept Ravenloft on his shelf and would point to it if some players got out of hand. Wouldn't say anything just point to it.
Oddly he never had to point twice in the same game section :)
Metagame story time!
** spoiler omitted **
My, my. Now THAT is one handy way of keeping your players in check. I may have to borrow this technique. Thanks for the LOL! =]
I definitely surpassed my limit of supplements before the APG was even released. The steady flow from Chronicles and Companions is about my speed. I do still look forward to Epic (and if they feel like taking on Psionics separate from Psionics Unleashed!).
When I realized this, it was too late to cancel Ultimate Magic, so I'm going to wait for the PaizoCon Banquet to see what's coming in the future before deciding how I'll proceed with my subscriptions. Last year I was impressed enough with the balance of the options shown to keep going, even if I haven't cracked open an APG yet.
Honestly, I would pay for an RPG subscription for Paizo *not* to put out additional rulebooks so quickly.
Though I definately think this thread flew of the handles because unfortunately, there were in fact several posts of 'stop producing rulebooks because I dont want anymore'. And while it was a small portion of the posters, it did cause an escalation that brought the thread waaaay off topic, because people (myself included) react quite strongly to such non-sense posts. And I think Justifiably so.
The original intent was to discuss the fate of the Rulebook line. I fully understand the division between Paizo's product lines.
Many people have misconstrued my OP as somehow calling for more campaign or companion material and fewer rulebooks. Rather, I was calling for future rulebooks to be something other than exclusively character options. On the face of it, both UC and UM seem like extensions to the APG — books of character options. There's more potential in the rulebook line than merely character options.
In fact, both Ultimate Magic and I am told Ultimate Combat do include a number of mechanics and rules that are not exclusively character options. However, I personally feel that the balance is still too skewed.
Some people will read the above statements and imagine to themselves that I am calling for a stop to all character options in rulebooks. Those people really need to slow down and read.
Okay, I'm going to back pedal slightly!
This post My Apology sorta explains the following comment!
I'll probably buy the Ultimate books, after looking through them! The inner Sea World Hardcover has me convinced
Though I definately think this thread flew of the handles because unfortunately, there were in fact several posts of 'stop producing rulebooks because I dont want anymore'. And while it was a small portion of the posters, it did cause an escalation that brought the thread waaaay off topic, because people (myself included) react quite strongly to such non-sense posts. And I think Justifiably so.
The original intent was to discuss the fate of the Rulebook line. I fully understand the division between Paizo's product lines.
Many people have misconstrued my OP as somehow calling for more campaign or companion material and fewer rulebooks. Rather, I was calling for future rulebooks to be something other than exclusively character options. On the face of it, both UC and UM seem like extensions to the APG — books of character options. There's more potential in the rulebook line than merely character options.
In fact, both Ultimate Magic and I am told Ultimate Combat do include a number of mechanics and rules that are not exclusively character options. However, I personally feel that the balance is still too skewed.
Some people will read the above statements and imagine to themselves that I am calling for a stop to all character options in rulebooks. Those people really need to slow down and read.
It isnt necessarily what you wrote, it is what others wrote afterward.
Though I have no problem with splat in principle, I would like to see more variety in books in general.
I would love to see Paizo giving us source material, adventures and the like that are not Golarian-centric. Golarian is fine and all, I have no problem with it, but I don't use store-bought settings as a rule. More generic adventures or hooks would be nice.
What I would really like is something similar to Deities & Demigods, where multiple pantheons, even real-world ones, are presented. And source material or even additional rules for other types of settings.
I'm one of the people who don't like a million player option books because I just get TIRED of the "can I have X?" conversation.
Ya! Another person who may like a magnet board of "Whats in my campaign" option tiles ... Complete with the extra pack of legitimate denial stamps.
:D See, see! A long over due game master product.
(And yes this remains a half-joke, because I'd buy one if someone made one. With page number and book reference listed on the options so players don't have to ask me where to find them.)
Declare your campaign to be closed to character options outside of X books. Being a reasonable GM you will hear out the person who simply must take on the the Rosecrans and Gildernsternian Bard archetype from Paizo option book Z and you will ask him to show you the relevant rules text from that book and think about it. That way you can allow certain options while avoiding having to familiarize yourself with every option.
Thats what a relatively new DM I played with decided he was doing in a 3.5 game he was running. He limited choices to the core book and that worked out pretty well for him.
I love these option books and would love to see more coming. Ultimate Magic in particular had a bunch of cool architypes that just scream BBEG from a GM perspective. I am looking forward to including them in my next campaign.
Many people have misconstrued my OP as somehow calling for more campaign or companion material and fewer rulebooks. Rather, I was calling for future rulebooks to be something other than exclusively character options.
They're NOT though, that's one of my objections to your post. Enemy NPCs get all the same options. Feats, class options, spells, magic items, etc. They are CHARACTER options, but that includes Non-Player CHARACTERS.
Since the ration is at least 4:1 players:GM, what can you release that has enough in it for a player to buy it, while having mostly tools for the GM? There's new bestiaries every year, the GMG is like 99% gm-only. Everything you release has to have player options, be they feats or spells or magic items or classes, or it will not sell.
So what sort of book would you like to see that has enough crunch to sell to players, but is largely for GMs?
Just my two cents.
First I haven't read Ultimate Magic yet, though I will be getting it for my wife's b-day. So this is based off pure opinion on the matter.
In concept, I really like this style of delivery for Pathfinder. This and Ultimate Combat provide plenty of options and new ideas without me buying 4 to 5 seperate books. As a GM this is quite nice. When I finally get the chance to be a PC again, I'll enjoy only going through 3 books to create my Mage as opposed to 25+ from back in the WotC days.
As a GM I still see this a benifit despite needing to be familiar with the book. It does boil down to the fact that this is still all in one book. Quick grab to design what I need.
My compliant is the same with any new options book, be it Ultimate Combat, Magic, or Advanced Player's Guide 2. How do I put this in my homebrew logically. With that though, I can not ask Paizo to come up with a simple solution I simply have to decide whether or not the Magus, Gunslinger, or X new thing really does fit in to the world and be prepared to tell a player, "Not yet" if they want to try out a new class.
Back to EL's request for additional book ideas.
1/3rd Mundane Equipment
1/3rd Magical items
1/3rd Rules crunch such as rewriting the crafting rules, more in depth magic item creation rules (for balancing), and random generation tables that take ALL the books thus far into account (ala MIC).
Back to EL's request for additional book ideas.
1/3rd Mundane Equipment
1/3rd Magical items
1/3rd Rules crunch such as rewriting the crafting rules, more in depth magic item creation rules (for balancing), and random generation tables that take ALL the books thus far into account (ala MIC).
I will second that! Especially reworking crafting.
To go along with the big book of NPC's, world/ setting/ community building book, and a compiled rules Apocrypha for those mechanics introduced in AP's setting books and the like.
I'm one of the people who don't like a million player option books because I just get TIRED of the "can I have X?" conversation.Ya! Another person who may like a magnet board of "Whats in my campaign" option tiles ... Complete with the extra pack of legitimate denial stamps.
:D See, see! A long over due game master product.
(And yes this remains a half-joke, because I'd buy one if someone made one. With page number and book reference listed on the options so players don't have to ask me where to find them.)
I think it's a great idea too, actually. :)
You know how there are some of those campaign design books--I think Paizo did one for its GameMastery line and I think LPJr Designs has one too. There could be a little booklet for GMs to fill out that includes allowed books and other house rules, so they could have it all in an organized fashion.
In fact, I think generally, what I really am hoping to see from Paizo--whether they put out more player option books or not (and I am sure they will)--is more love and support for GMs in general, including GMs who don't necessarily use the APs on a regular basis (or at all). I know there are fewer GMs than there are players, and ergo it is more of a sales risk to make GM-oriented books. But maybe there would be more GMs, and more GMs would stick with it, if there were more support. It's relatively easy to a player--once you've built your character, half your work is done. Good GMs constantly have to prepare, even if they're using modules and the like to help them out. Support for high level campaigns (not necessarily "epic") would be great. I am just finishing up a very high level campaign, and the onus was largely entirely on me to put the adventures and encounters together, and at this point it's made me feel a bit burned out about GMing Pathfinder (though I plan to keep at it once I've taken a break).
And yes, player option books can be used by GMs too--and I loved the additional rules section in the APG as a GM--but still largely in a way that creates more work for them (review more options both in consideration of what the players take as well as for building effective NPCs and encounters of all varieties), not helps ease the burden of campaign design and adventure preparation. I remember seeing Paizo's guidelines in the RPG Superstar Contest--one of them was "don't create more work for the GM." I wish they would follow their own advice more often.
The Game Mastery Guide was a great start, but it was obviously rushed in the interests of getting it out before the APG and Gen Con, and content-wise is generally quite broad but not very deep.
Back to EL's request for additional book ideas.
1/3rd Mundane Equipment
1/3rd Magical items
1/3rd Rules crunch such as rewriting the crafting rules, more in depth magic item creation rules (for balancing), and random generation tables that take ALL the books thus far into account (ala MIC).I will second that! Especially reworking crafting.
To go along with the big book of NPC's, world/ setting/ community building book, and a compiled rules Apocrypha for those mechanics introduced in AP's setting books and the like.
agree completely.
Back to EL's request for additional book ideas.
1/3rd Mundane Equipment
1/3rd Magical items
1/3rd Rules crunch such as rewriting the crafting rules, more in depth magic item creation rules (for balancing), and random generation tables that take ALL the books thus far into account (ala MIC).
I'm the LPM and I endorse this message.
Back to EL's request for additional book ideas.
1/3rd Mundane Equipment
1/3rd Magical items
1/3rd Rules crunch such as rewriting the crafting rules, more in depth magic item creation rules (for balancing), and random generation tables that take ALL the books thus far into account (ala MIC).I will second that! Especially reworking crafting.
To go along with the big book of NPC's, world/ setting/ community building book, and a compiled rules Apocrypha for those mechanics introduced in AP's setting books and the like.
+1 to all!
Back to EL's request for additional book ideas.
1/3rd Mundane Equipment
1/3rd Magical items
1/3rd Rules crunch such as rewriting the crafting rules, more in depth magic item creation rules (for balancing), and random generation tables that take ALL the books thus far into account (ala MIC).
This this this. I'll add that the random generation sections should really update the system of random generation to something less headache-inducing.
I have to assume that I'm the only GM in all the world who has tried to populate a home-brew shop or town with items by the book — if there were anyone else who'd tried, I would have expected to hear a greater outcry. Crafting and treasure gen are the two worst legacy systems, IMO, and I would really love to see the Paizo designers unleashed.
In fact, new thread.
I have to assume that I'm the only GM in all the world who has tried to populate a home-brew shop or town with items by the book — if there were anyone else who'd tried, I would have expected to hear a greater outcry. Crafting and treasure gen are the two worst legacy systems, IMO, and I would really love to see the Paizo designers unleashed.In fact, new thread.
Nope,
I'm in the middle of populating some stuff for an upcoming game, and it's not painful, it's excruciating. Especially potions, since potions have rules on what spells can make them. :(I'm just trying for 3 each of thorp, hamlet, village, etc. I'm also working on a program to automate it. I had one for MIC, but it got trashed when a computer died. However, the rules in PF core are so spread out and recursive that it's hard to work up a program to handle it in my spare time. MIC at the very least had a very very very easy base rule set for random items, and it was easy to add items to the random lists.