Please, no more player option mega-books


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book idea: how to play in the elemental planes (i mean if everything is on fire, things change) maybe more fluff than crunch but still improtant to add...


I do know folks who game without internet access at home or the extra cash to just blow 20 or 25 bucks a month on gaming books.

I know those poor folks have some nerve gaming.

Shadow Lodge

Book ideas!

How to build a stronghold. What does it cost? Magically or non-magically? If I can cast Wall of Stone and Wall of Iron, how can I build my own private mansion? Make sure that doing it the old-fashioned way with laborers is cheaper (than paying the mage), since it takes longer.

How do I embed lead in the walls? How do I install HVAC? Can I build the whole thing out of force and make it fly (Memo to me: don't build the outhouse out of force)?

What can I do with the thousands of GPs I earn that isn't another +1?


seekerofshadowlight wrote:

I do know folks who game without internet access at home or the extra cash to just blow 20 or 25 bucks a month on gaming books.

I know those poor folks have some nerve gaming.

we're not talking about 20 bucks a month, we're talking about 25 dollars a year. A YEAR!

Also, keep up, we're talking about new books and/or content downloadable directly to one's brain.


meatrace wrote:
seekerofshadowlight wrote:

I do know folks who game without internet access at home or the extra cash to just blow 20 or 25 bucks a month on gaming books.

I know those poor folks have some nerve gaming.

we're not talking about 20 bucks a month, we're talking about 25 dollars a year. A YEAR!

Also, keep up, we're talking about new books and/or content downloadable directly to one's brain.

I get ya, anyone who does not buy every new splat should stop gaming.


meatrace wrote:
seekerofshadowlight wrote:

I do know folks who game without internet access at home or the extra cash to just blow 20 or 25 bucks a month on gaming books.

I know those poor folks have some nerve gaming.

we're not talking about 20 bucks a month, we're talking about 25 dollars a year. A YEAR!

Also, keep up, we're talking about new books and/or content downloadable directly to one's brain.

Well in all fairness, it's more than 25 a year if you're talking about keeping up with the Paizo production schedule. I'm sure you'd agree with that. Even if you're just talking about PDFs. As far as new books or content downloadable directly to what's left of one's brain in a jar, I saw mention of a revamp of the treasure rules, treasure tables, perhaps crafting rules. Those I'd love to see.


seekerofshadowlight wrote:

I am done with new rule books. I got the APG, ultimate magic does not call to me, and combat became lets make it super Asian power hour, for no reason.

I just do not want more rules for what is already a rules heavy game. And I am don e with the Ap's until they stop forcing me to buy the new books to play them.

I think forcing folks to have new optional books to play the AP's is a bad, bad call.

Anyhow the point is I am done with splat books.

I think you had this discussion with someone before, but you don't have to buy the books to use the AP's. The rules are online. They are normally at PFSRD first, but they are still online. That might require you to print out a few pages at the library, but that is still a lot cheaper than even having to buy the pdf.

For the sake of argument though let's say you refuse to spend any amount of money no matter how small on principle alone. Let's say an AP has a witch in it. You don't want to pay or stat up a replacement class or learn new rules. Getting people online to almost build a the character for you has been done before so that save you time for making a new character. You have options to get around the issue of not wanting to buy the book. Those of us that want to see the books supported would have no option if they did not use the books. I say support the books.
The choice that can be worked around is better than the one that can't, IMHO.


Azoun The Sage wrote:
deinol wrote:
Azoun The Sage wrote:
I plan to get the Ultimate Magic book, but am hesitant to purchase the Ultimate Combat. Mainly because I don't use guns in my fantasy setting nor do I do Oriental Adventures. :(
You realize that will be maybe 10% of UC? The other 90% will be more options, feats, archtypes and other goodies for fighters, rogues, barbarians, rangers, paladins, cavaliers, inquisitors, bards and any other character who deals violence damage to their opponents.
If the gun fluff is only 10% then i'm sure i'll buy the book. But if its in the 50% area I will be extremely hesitant. Just because half the book I won't use.

Why would a book be 50% of just one weapon type?


Evil Lincoln wrote:

I'll add one more question:

For those who feel as I do, what kind of books would you like to see instead?

I think a book that streamlined and fixed the treasure rules would be grand. I'm dying for a total redux of the treasure scene, maybe a new design that accounts for later expansion, and doesn't require hours of dead ends.

Or a book about towns and settlements.

I would like smaller books that take an approach kind of like what Zak S. did with his Vornheim book: give me the means to make and use good content on the fly for a specific adventure type (urban crawl, forest, mountain, dungeon, sea, etc). Make it Pathfinderized.


In an attempt to be somewhat earnest with suggestions, I think Epic rules should be the next player option book released. I'm curious to see how Paizo tackles it, and hope it will be fundamentally different than the 3.0 epic level handbook even though I liked that.

I'd love to see rules for organizations, but I think Dave Noonan did it pretty much perfectly in the 3.5 PHB2.

I think an NPC gallery book would be great for GMs that prefer to play on the fly.

I also think a stronghold guide would be fun, but hopefully incorporated into a larger book about diplomacy, international finance, mass combat, etc. Basically everything you need to rule a nation, Kingmaker-style. Yeah okay I'm a Birthright fan.

I'd also like to see new and different campaign settings. I know they're dedicated go Golarion for the long-haul, and it works great for the APs, but I'm not in love with the world. It's very well done but still generic fantasy.


ZomB wrote:

I would prefer they didn't do this, and opposed the introduction of the APG in our group for this reason.

My main concern however is what impact will the continuing new major player option books have on organized play? It raises the apparent bar for new and existing GMs in what they need to read and own (and carry around) to be able to GM. So does this mean less organised play GMs?

Of course if the GM doesn't own the book they could legitimately ask the player to produce it and just ban anything from it if they can't. Though I can't see that being very constructive to organised play.

There is also the issue that an existing OP character may feel underpowered or disadvantaged compared to others using the new rules. Rightly or wrongly.

It's all online or will be anyway. You have to wait a little while for PFSRD to get it up, but that is a lot different than it not being available at all, ever.

I really need to start helping those guys now that I think about it.


Wolfsnap wrote:

It's a catch-22 for Paizo. A player will buy a book that gives new options for player characters. A GM will also buy a book that gives new options for player characters (to use with NPCs).

However, players are less likely to buy new monster supplements (which are usually the purview of GMs) and are less likely to buy new Adventure Paths (which are usually used solely by GMs). They may buy setting-material (Golarion campaign books, etc) but GMs are more likely to show interest.

While there are many players who also GM and vice-versa, the number of people who solely play probably outnumbers the number of people who solely GM by a good margin.

In my experience, it's typically only the GM that buys any RPG-books for a given system, since he/she is the one that is most enthusiastic about it. The players tend to coast on the GM's library and free online resources, at best getting their own copy of the Core book.


seekerofshadowlight wrote:
meatrace wrote:
seekerofshadowlight wrote:

I do know folks who game without internet access at home or the extra cash to just blow 20 or 25 bucks a month on gaming books.

I know those poor folks have some nerve gaming.

we're not talking about 20 bucks a month, we're talking about 25 dollars a year. A YEAR!

Also, keep up, we're talking about new books and/or content downloadable directly to one's brain.

I get ya, anyone who does not buy every new splat should stop gaming.

Please stop, you're just making it worse. It's one book a year, do you think Paizo should stop making content completely? Because there's only one possible number less than 1. I don't think so, so stop arguing that. Also, the APG stuff is available FOR FREE on the internet.

The whole reason I love the APG is that you only need 1 splatbook instead of 4-12 which WotC would have made to cover the same material at 4-12 times the price. Even back then I managed to buy 2-3 splat books a year.


yeah i think the jest of how 3rd approached epic was good allowing pcs to go as high as they want without to terrible problems. like the ideal of if the BAB continues gaining attacks you would have the last 4 or so that would never hit and you would roll your 8-16 attacks forever with no real purpose so they just gave every class the +1per2 and then the same for saves the continuation of the scale would result in a fighter always saving fort and always failing his low ones. now the spell system sucked the feats weren't bad and it could of used better progression for prestige and base classes.


Evil Lincoln wrote:
Ravingdork wrote:
New books I would like to see: Kingmaker building expanded, psionics, epic rules, and more monsters (including NPC guides and expanded/clarified monsters as PC rules).

ooo ooo

A book that revises the (cumbersome) treasure system AND has new treasure AND has a more flavorful and balanced component-based item creation system! With rarity rules! 330 pages! I will buy!

Actually what I would really like to see and something that might actually sell would be a book about dialing magic up and down in a campaign (both magic items and spellcasting). I think its one of the more popular concepts on the boards (running a low magic item or low magic game) and I'd like to see what the proffessionals have to say about it from a mechanics perspective.

In general I am very opposed to RPG line books being flavor heavy. Many groups create their own worlds, and a load of flavor belongs in the companion and setting lines, not in the RPG books. The RPG books are supposed to be setting neutral, and for the most part that means flavor light.

As far as non-option crunch, you will find that most of it is going to be dm centric, world building stuff (psionics, or kingdom building rules, or treasure rules). These will not sell as well because it cuts out the majority of players of the game. You are taking an already restrained market (people who play pathfinder) and then cutting out people who dont run games or arent planning to run one in the near future, and then you cut out people who arent interested in the specific topic. That isnt a big market for a hardback book.

Certainly books like the GMG, and other tools are important, they should exist, but as a focus of the line will eventually kill it. Character options can be used by everyone at every table (they may not be depending on preference but they CAN be used). It doesnt automatically cut out any big swaths of the market.


MendedWall12 wrote:
meatrace wrote:
seekerofshadowlight wrote:

I do know folks who game without internet access at home or the extra cash to just blow 20 or 25 bucks a month on gaming books.

I know those poor folks have some nerve gaming.

we're not talking about 20 bucks a month, we're talking about 25 dollars a year. A YEAR!

Also, keep up, we're talking about new books and/or content downloadable directly to one's brain.

Well in all fairness, it's more than 25 a year if you're talking about keeping up with the Paizo production schedule. I'm sure you'd agree with that. Even if you're just talking about PDFs. As far as new books or content downloadable directly to what's left of one's brain in a jar, I saw mention of a revamp of the treasure rules, treasure tables, perhaps crafting rules. Those I'd love to see.

We're not though, we're talking about keeping up with their players option books. Players don't need the GMG or Bestiary, and that leaves one book other than the core book released thus far. In 21 months. We are on the verge of release #2 and some people are already ready to put the brakes on. I mean damn, 2 books in 2 years. Am I made of money?

Contributor

mdt wrote:
Evil Lincoln wrote:

I should think Paizo would be interested in expanding their Kingmaker Kingdom system, considering how well that sold.

Nice and generic, too.

Agreed,

I am very annoyed that that those rules are AP only. :( I would like a nice crunch book with them all in it.
However, I am not going to say "I won't buy your RPG line if you don't stop putting bits of crunch in your APs.". :)

The rules for kingdom building are Open Game Content, and as such, can be used by third party publishers. Jon Brazer Enterprises has collected those rules and expanded upon them—read this store blog for further information.

I'm also going to remove some posts in this thread—please think about what you're posting before you hit the submit buttion.


Are wrote:
Wolfsnap wrote:

It's a catch-22 for Paizo. A player will buy a book that gives new options for player characters. A GM will also buy a book that gives new options for player characters (to use with NPCs).

However, players are less likely to buy new monster supplements (which are usually the purview of GMs) and are less likely to buy new Adventure Paths (which are usually used solely by GMs). They may buy setting-material (Golarion campaign books, etc) but GMs are more likely to show interest.

While there are many players who also GM and vice-versa, the number of people who solely play probably outnumbers the number of people who solely GM by a good margin.

In my experience, it's typically only the GM that buys any RPG-books for a given system, since he/she is the one that is most enthusiastic about it. The players tend to coast on the GM's library and free online resources, at best getting their own copy of the Core book.

That's honestly really sad and disheartening to hear if that is what you are used to. I've only ever run one campaign where it was like that (3.5 I was the DM and it was reeaaaaaallly late in the system's life) and even then my players used to show up with random gifts of minis and such to compensate for the fact that I was the only one with books. After a few months of the campaign, 2 of the players went and bought the PHB.

I don't think that the majority of games only have the GM with materials. I think that is vastly not the case, but maybe it is my perspective that is skewed.


Sir Jolt wrote:
seekerofshadowlight wrote:

I am done with new rule books. I got the APG, ultimate magic does not call to me, and combat became lets make it super Asian power hour, for no reason.

I just do not want more rules for what is already a rules heavy game. And I am don e with the Ap's until they stop forcing me to buy the new books to play them.

I think forcing folks to have new optional books to play the AP's is a bad, bad call.

Anyhow the point is I am done with splat books.

Agree completely.

I have trouble believing that people won't buy AP's because they don't have Cowboys and Ninjas in them.

Too much information spread out over too many books is a problem when you need all of them to make a character - whether it's 6 300 page books or 12 150 page books.

The original core classes, with the possible exception of the Monk and Druid, are fairly vanilla and conform to common fantasy tropes. Better variation comes through with well-designed PrC's; not creating a new core class to fill every tiny niche people can come with.

To a new gamer, PF is already extremely intimidating and the buy-in cost is becoming extremely high. No one is going buy anything, whether it's campaign, module, or crunch, if they have to shell out $500+ first for "core" just to make it work.

Look what happened to Star Wars Saga Ed. Every book assumed you had bought the book before it and to make any class you had to flip through every single book to see all your options. It was annoying even if you had been buying the books as they came out and if you hadn't it was impossible. A game can only handle so much of that before it collapses under its own weight.

SJ

Saga was killed by no adventure support, just as much as it was too many books. Many of us don't have the time to write adventures. I also am not an SW expert canon wise, and I don't feel comfortable writing a story for it when at least two of my players can recite anything and everything SW from memory. I got them hands down in mechanics, but I would like for my stories to make sense. If Paizo was not putting adventures out I would probably still be using 3.5, and running STAP right now.


I thought the lack of decent encounters (ie you practically had to make every encounter yourself with npc or the handful of monsters that were available) And ofcourse the fact that the force was INCREDIBLY OP like seriously first level +14 utf check considering people might have a will defense of 16 so 2 to suceed....


meatrace wrote:
MendedWall12 wrote:
meatrace wrote:
seekerofshadowlight wrote:

I do know folks who game without internet access at home or the extra cash to just blow 20 or 25 bucks a month on gaming books.

I know those poor folks have some nerve gaming.

we're not talking about 20 bucks a month, we're talking about 25 dollars a year. A YEAR!

Also, keep up, we're talking about new books and/or content downloadable directly to one's brain.

Well in all fairness, it's more than 25 a year if you're talking about keeping up with the Paizo production schedule. I'm sure you'd agree with that. Even if you're just talking about PDFs. As far as new books or content downloadable directly to what's left of one's brain in a jar, I saw mention of a revamp of the treasure rules, treasure tables, perhaps crafting rules. Those I'd love to see.
We're not though, we're talking about keeping up with their players option books. Players don't need the GMG or Bestiary, and that leaves one book other than the core book released thus far. In 21 months. We are on the verge of release #2 and some people are already ready to put the brakes on. I mean damn, 2 books in 2 years. Am I made of money?

Touche! I think part of where this argument starts is in fact the production and publication of three player options books in so short a time. No, I'm sure you're not made of money, and really never wanted money to be a major portion of the argument. (It was fun while it lasted though :) I think for some GMs, myself included, it really comes down to the ability to keep up with all the options the players at our tables are going to want to use. When Paizo publishes a great player options book like Ultimate Magic, or Ultimate combat players (many of whom do seem to have endless pocketbooks, why they don't float some of that coin to the dirt-farming GM is question for another thread) immediately want to start looking at using those options as soon as possible.

Honestly I still haven't made my way all the way through the APG. Also, in fairness to myself and you Meat, raising three kids is a lot more time consuming than you may think. So I don't have as much time to peruse the rulebooks. For me anyway, that's a major reason for my mentality of "I'm done with player options books for the moment."

I did mention in an earlier post, that I think just got ignored because there were quite literally like 30 posts a minute being dropped in this thread. I too would like to see a new setting book. Preferably a low-magic setting book. Of course that is kind of hypocritical because a low-magic setting book would more than likely turn into a whole new rulebook, with completely different player options. Of course, that doesn't change the fact that I'd still like to see it.

Also, sorry Liz if any of my posts were of the offensive variety. :(


wraithstrike wrote:


Saga was killed by no adventure support, just as much as it was too many books. Many of us don't have the time to write adventures. I also am not an SW expert canon wise, and I don't feel comfortable writing a story for it when at least two of my players can recite anything and everything SW from memory. I got them hands down in mechanics, but I would like for my stories to make sense. If Paizo was not putting adventures out I would probably still be using 3.5, and running STAP right now.

I think the two go hand in hand. An adventure line will die if new rulebooks dont keep people interested in the game, and keep up it's exposure. Eventually the new toy effect will draw people away from the game system. At the same time, quality adventures bolsters the ranks of people playing the game. I have no idea what the numbers are but there is no question that a significant number of groups both write their own and down write their own adentures. Then there are people like me that use pieces of AP's to flesh out adventures they write themselves.

The two feed into eachother, increasing sales and profit for both kinds of products. If you dont have a strong adventure line AND a strong Rulebook line, eventually either one would die out. That is why I believe pathfinder is doing so well. It has a fantastic base setting with lots of material to work with it. It has the best Adventure line I am aware of, and it has a solid game system with a steady stream of new material to keep people interested and to attract new players by getting the game system on more shelves in more stores.

Owner - House of Books and Games LLC

Wow, I go to lunch and a 160+ post mega thread shows up.

However, I'm happy - someone early on (thank you KaeYoss) posted a request for epic :)

In any case, James Jacobs has said repeatedly they want to front load the rules so that they can then do stuff with the rules, as opposed to having base classes showing up from here to eternity, etc.

I'm looking forward to the next stage; I've seen many requests for similar things over the past few years, so it's likely what we'll see coming down the pipe is among stuff in the following:

  • 21+ level rules (not gonna use the E-word)
  • environmental books along the lines of Frostburn and Stormwrack
  • "focus" books along the lines of Libris Mortis and Lords of Madness
  • guidebooks (like the GMG, but perhaps more specific, like "how to run a high-level (14-20) campaign
  • kingdom building/stronghold rules
  • oriental adventures
  • planar adventuring
  • psionics
  • Savage Species-style monster rules

Personally, I'd love to see more darkrealms stuff as well, and I love the way things are going with daemons, demons and devils.

Dying to see a "Paths of Madness" book as well that takes the whole Lovecraftian thing to a new level.

I'm sure there's been 20 posts while I typed this; let's "Preview" and take a look :)

(wow, you guys are slowing down ... only 3)


Kolokotroni wrote:

As far as non-option crunch, you will find that most of it is going to be dm centric, world building stuff (psionics, or kingdom building rules, or treasure rules). These will not sell as well because it cuts out the majority of players of the game. You are taking an already restrained market (people who play pathfinder) and then cutting out people who dont run games or arent planning to run one in the near future, and then you cut out people who arent interested in the specific topic. That isnt a big market for a hardback book.

I'm actually not so sure. I think that in these situations rules for kingdom building and whatnot that were active and require participation from the players, as well as mechanically benefit them, would probably sell OK. At least as well as the GMG. I think Paizo is fairly comfortable taking a hit and making a book that won't sell like gangbusters if it is something they think that at least SOME people will want and fits their vision of the brand.

For example, as long as the rules for stronghold building had lots of inclusive options for players, ways for them to customize their domain, and ways it benefit them they would want it. Perhaps having a trading post gives them +5% when selling mundane items. Having a court wizard gives you a 20% discount on buying spells cast, at the cost of a moderate retainer fee/salary. Example organizations, how to join them, what membership costs, and what are the fringe benefits.

The more I think about it the more I want one big book for running a kingdom, building a stronghold, going to war/mass combat, and handling organizations/guilds that is comprehensive and useful for both players (at higher levels mostly) and GMs.

In fact, Paizo could make a thing out of it, like WotC did with Year of the Dragon, releasing that and the Epic Level rules in the same year, along with a Bestiary that concentrates on higher level monsters and an AP that goes to Epic. Maybe a 9 part AP, and the other releases could be a trilogy of more modular adventures.


MendedWall12 wrote:

Touche! I think part of where this argument starts is in fact the production and publication of three player options books in so short a time. No, I'm sure you're not made of money, and really never wanted money to be a major portion of the argument. (It was fun while it lasted though :) I think for some GMs, myself included, it really comes down to the ability to keep up with all the options the players at our tables are going to want to use. When Paizo publishes a great player options book like Ultimate Magic, or Ultimate combat players (many of whom do seem to have endless pocketbooks, why they don't float some of that coin to the dirt-farming GM is question for another thread) immediately want to start looking at using those options as soon as possible.

Honestly I still haven't made my way all the way through the APG. Also, in fairness to myself and you Meat, raising three kids is a lot more time consuming than you may think. So I don't have as much time to peruse the rulebooks. For me anyway, that's a major reason for my mentality of "I'm done with player options books for the moment."

Like I said this is a Trap a TON of gms fall into. You dont have to know everything. You have to know what your players use. I havent looked at every option in the APG yet either. But I dont have to. If my players want to use a feat, archetype or prestige class or spell from the APG or any other non-core book, they have to run it by me FIRST. Not because I am going to reject it, but because I can then make a note of the option and examine it. That is a far smaller workload then looking at the whole APG. Work smarter not harder!

Quote:

I did mention in an earlier post, that I think just got ignored because there were quite literally like 30 posts a minute being dropped in this thread. I too would like to see a new setting book. Preferably a low-magic setting book. Of course that is kind of hypocritical because a low-magic setting book would more than likely turn into a whole new rulebook, with completely different player options. Of course, that doesn't change the fact that I'd still like to see it.

I'd like to see a rulebook that helps dial up and down the magic in a game too, but again, it wont sell as well as option books because lets face it only a portion (dms who want to change magic levels) of a portion (dms of pathfinder) of a small community (pathfinder players) are going to even give such a book a second glance. It wont sell all that well. Books like that can't drive an RPG line (and certainly not if they are an actual setting book).


Kolokotroni wrote:


Actually what I would really like to see and something that might actually sell would be a book about dialing magic up and down in a campaign (both magic items and spellcasting). I think its one of the more popular concepts on the boards (running a low magic item or low magic game) and I'd like to see what the proffessionals have to say about it from a mechanics perspective.

+1 to that -- I would also buy a book that looked at variant rules for both High or Low magic settings (including low-tech ways to make cool items beyond +1 masterwork and mithril/adamantine)


i didnt get to post when this thread first popped up.

honestly, after the ultimates, i belive that we have enough character options. when you get past that, my group pulls things from everywhere and come up with the most power gamed characters ever.

BUT, i do think that ultimate magic/combat are needed.

but on a further note bout what evil lincoln said bout new material in ultimate magic wanting to be used right now by his players en masse, ive seen the same thing happen everytime a new psionics book comes out, so if youre wanting psionics, the same thing will happen (everybody will want to play a psionic something asap, at least its that way with my group, this is why i wished theyd have figured it out and released them with the core rulebook). ive even seen campaigns die due to everyone wanting to change their character to input psionic characters. its sad really.

so yes i agree that no more player option books are needed, but i do believe that these two ARE needed.


meatrace wrote:
Kolokotroni wrote:

As far as non-option crunch, you will find that most of it is going to be dm centric, world building stuff (psionics, or kingdom building rules, or treasure rules). These will not sell as well because it cuts out the majority of players of the game. You are taking an already restrained market (people who play pathfinder) and then cutting out people who dont run games or arent planning to run one in the near future, and then you cut out people who arent interested in the specific topic. That isnt a big market for a hardback book.

I'm actually not so sure. I think that in these situations rules for kingdom building and whatnot that were active and require participation from the players, as well as mechanically benefit them, would probably sell OK. At least as well as the GMG. I think Paizo is fairly comfortable taking a hit and making a book that won't sell like gangbusters if it is something they think that at least SOME people will want and fits their vision of the brand.

For example, as long as the rules for stronghold building had lots of inclusive options for players, ways for them to customize their domain, and ways it benefit them they would want it. Perhaps having a trading post gives them +5% when selling mundane items. Having a court wizard gives you a 20% discount on buying spells cast, at the cost of a moderate retainer fee/salary. Example organizations, how to join them, what membership costs, and what are the fringe benefits.

The more I think about it the more I want one big book for running a kingdom, building a stronghold, going to war/mass combat, and handling organizations/guilds that is comprehensive and useful for both players (at higher levels mostly) and GMs.

The book by Jon Brazer has already put a dent in the potential market for such a book. People who already bought their book that expanded on the kingdom building exploring and mass combat rules, are less likely to buy this kind of book again unless it was truly something special.

And while the kingdom building stuff does require participation from the players stuff like this isnt always willing. In my group only about half the players even care, a couple are really into it, and me I just like the concept but am not overly interested in the nitty gritty mechanics. One of the podcasts I listen to (3.5 Private sanctuary) actually stopped a game because a good portion of the table didnt like getting involved in the mechanical side of kingdom building. Sure its anectodal, but it shows the hit or miss nature of major subsystems like this. I would be shocked if a book like this sold as well as the GMG, because at least the gmg had a little something every dm wanted. A kingdom building rulebook would mostly be bought by GMs, and then only by GMs looking for this kind of game and havent already bought Jon Brazers version, AND either havent bought or werent satisfied with the kingmaker rules. You really think thats enough to match GMG sales?


Kolokotroni wrote:
wraithstrike wrote:


Saga was killed by no adventure support, just as much as it was too many books. Many of us don't have the time to write adventures. I also am not an SW expert canon wise, and I don't feel comfortable writing a story for it when at least two of my players can recite anything and everything SW from memory. I got them hands down in mechanics, but I would like for my stories to make sense. If Paizo was not putting adventures out I would probably still be using 3.5, and running STAP right now.

I think the two go hand in hand. An adventure line will die if new rulebooks dont keep people interested in the game, and keep up it's exposure. Eventually the new toy effect will draw people away from the game system. At the same time, quality adventures bolsters the ranks of people playing the game. I have no idea what the numbers are but there is no question that a significant number of groups both write their own and down write their own adentures. Then there are people like me that use pieces of AP's to flesh out adventures they write themselves.

The two feed into eachother, increasing sales and profit for both kinds of products. If you dont have a strong adventure line AND a strong Rulebook line, eventually either one would die out. That is why I believe pathfinder is doing so well. It has a fantastic base setting with lots of material to work with it. It has the best Adventure line I am aware of, and it has a solid game system with a steady stream of new material to keep people interested and to attract new players by getting the game system on more shelves in more stores.

I agree. I am just glad Paizo is smart enough to hold the rule books to 2 a year instead of 6-10 a year.


Tilnar wrote:
Kolokotroni wrote:


Actually what I would really like to see and something that might actually sell would be a book about dialing magic up and down in a campaign (both magic items and spellcasting). I think its one of the more popular concepts on the boards (running a low magic item or low magic game) and I'd like to see what the proffessionals have to say about it from a mechanics perspective.
+1 to that -- I would also buy a book that looked at variant rules for both High or Low magic settings (including low-tech ways to make cool items beyond +1 masterwork and mithril/adamantine)

I never even thought of a "dialing it up or down" kind of book, that's a great, great idea. A mechanical book that is explicit in how to adjust the current rules to different magic settings would be fantastic.

Also @Kolokotroni in regards to

Quote:
Like I said this is a Trap a TON of gms fall into. You dont have to know everything. You have to know what your players use. I havent looked at every option in the APG yet either. But I dont have to. If my players want to use a feat, archetype or prestige class or spell from the APG or any other non-core book, they have to run it by me FIRST. Not because I am going to reject it, but because I can then make a note of the option and examine it. That is a far smaller workload then looking at the whole APG. Work smarter not harder!

Man you channeled my old man there for a second. I can't tell you how many times I heard "work smarter not harder" from him when I was a kid. You are absolutely right, and in fact that is how I run things as well. I do still feel, though, that as GM I should be as familiar with all the rules as I possibly can be. So, by no stretch of the imagination am I saying I don't use a book until I've read it cover to cover and taken several chapter quizzes. I do exactly as you do, and take just about everything non-core in a player presented way. That doesn't change the fact, though, that I like to familiarize myself with everything available when time and the planets align.

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder Adventure, Rulebook Subscriber

I used to have a lot more subscriber tags. I was ever a charter subscriber on a lot of things.

Then I realized I wasn't going to use the campaign setting information. And I had more adventure paths than I could conceivably run in the near future.

Now all I have left is the RPG subscription. And I realize I don't even need Ultimate Magic.

So Ultimate Combat will be the last subscription book I buy. Maybe the last Paizo book I buy, unless something catches my eye. I guess I've just grown out of needing every book that comes out.


How about expanded social rules?

Something that makes the social stuff in the game have closer to the level of depth that combat has.

I'd buy it.


gbonehead wrote:
In any case, James Jacobs has said repeatedly they want to front load the rules so that they can then do stuff with the rules, as opposed to having base classes showing up from here to eternity, etc.

Too bad...I'd rather have a big book with lots of options, play with those for a year until they lose some of their lustre, then get a big new book with even more fresh options that I can play with, etc.


mdt wrote:

...because they'll be out of business in 6 months.

So yeah, if they want to publish it, go for it.

So you're all for Paizo going out of business in 6 months? Thanks for sticking the fork in your argument...it's done!

Scarab Sages

We (My fiance & I) don't allow most things from the APG in our home games and it is unbelievably frustrating to have to check everything that a player brings to a PFS game because it is "legal."

We may be canceling our RPG subscription after Ultimate Magic. We already gave away the the APG book as a gift, and will likely do the same to Ultimate Magic.

Please slow down the Player-Option RPGs!

We are DIE-HARD Paizo fans, and my fiance is a Paizo charter superscriber, for the time being. But even we can't keep up with all of the extra rules and options being put out there for the players. And that's a lot considering we are both rules lawyers.

I like the books, but they come out way too fast. These books are making me reconsider running PFS regularly (which I'm running at Texicon and Paizocon).

[Edit - changed RPGs to player-option RPGS, since I really really want epic rules]


seriously PLEASE SLOW DOWN really? really? hey heres a thought if you don't want the book when it comes out BUY IT LATER... you know i say as long as they put out good stuff KEEP IT COMING!


vidmaster wrote:
seriously PLEASE SLOW DOWN really? really? hey heres a thought if you don't want the book when it comes out BUY IT LATER... you know i say as long as they put out good stuff KEEP IT COMING!

Yes, really.


vidmaster wrote:
seriously PLEASE SLOW DOWN really? really? hey heres a thought if you don't want the book when it comes out BUY IT LATER... you know i say as long as they put out good stuff KEEP IT COMING!

+1 dont like it, dont buy it. as long as its good, keep it coming. there are those of us who do want more options.


Yes slow down. The more books you put out the more over saturated you make the market. The faster you put out books the faster you reach that point.

For many of us they are starting to get to that point already. They really do need to slow down.


Fnipernackle wrote:
dont like it, dont buy it.

*sigh*

For the umpteenth time, that doesn't solve the problem. Those who have thought it through -- whatever their ultimate preference -- understand that. As for the rest of you, well...I've got better things to do. :)


Liz Courts wrote:
mdt wrote:
Evil Lincoln wrote:

I should think Paizo would be interested in expanding their Kingmaker Kingdom system, considering how well that sold.

Nice and generic, too.

Agreed,

I am very annoyed that that those rules are AP only. :( I would like a nice crunch book with them all in it.
However, I am not going to say "I won't buy your RPG line if you don't stop putting bits of crunch in your APs.". :)

The rules for kingdom building are Open Game Content, and as such, can be used by third party publishers. Jon Brazer Enterprises has collected those rules and expanded upon them—read this store blog for further information.

I'm also going to remove some posts in this thread—please think about what you're posting before you hit the submit buttion.

Thanks for the link, bought.

Oh, and sorry, but thinking before posting is against netrage rules. :)


Pathfinder Adventure, Adventure Path, Lost Omens Subscriber

Hopefully at PaizoCon they will announce Bestiary 3 and whatever book will come after that. Then people can really start to complain. Or not, as they like.


Pathfinder Adventure, Adventure Path, Lost Omens, Starfinder Adventure Path Subscriber
bugleyman wrote:
Fnipernackle wrote:
dont like it, dont buy it.

*sigh*

For the umpteenth time, that doesn't solve the problem. Those who have thought it through -- whatever their ultimate preference -- understand that. As for the rest of you, well...I've got better things to do. :)

Can you elaborate on this?

I get the feeling that most people on these boards play with a gaggle of antagonistic strangers who demand every ornate, obscure option.

If you're playing with a group of people you know why doesn't it work to say... "Hey we are only using book x and y for this campaign." That seems sensible.

If you feel the game is saturated.... which I certainly understand, I for one don't like to slug through rules.... why does Paizo's production schedule affect you negatively?

Is it that you feel their resources can be better used elsewhere?

Or is it that your players or the people you game with insist on incorporating every option?

If it is the later doesn't that by default establish that there is an audience who wants these books and isn't it Paizo's best interest to pursue that market?

Silver Crusade

The problem isn't "I don't want to buy it just now", but rather "Sorry dude, I know Paizo just got this new shining rulebook totally fine for PFS and pretty balanced I heard, but right now I don't want to use it at all in the game, maybe in some months".
When players will come up with something awesome that puts them in awe and makes their imagination run wild, they will ask their DM. If the DM didn't read the book beforehand and ban it while the book that came up previously some months ago is allowed, it will only cause drama at worst, and disappointment at best. It's more a problem of letting DMs and players digest and decide what to do with the new rules before coming with more and more.

I'm pretty much the rule-lawyer for my fellow players, and the moving rulebook of the DM which asks me everytime he needs something specific. I'm also the Paizo representative in our group. At first the APG wasn't well received at all, since the DM doesn't know a lot the rules, he didn't want more of them. Especially in a language in which he isn't really fluent, to say the least. I had to explain and develop a lot of things to convince him to allow the book, and I guess it will need a comparable amount of work to insert the Ultimate Magic and Combat, even if the first is pretty much already fine for play since he loves to surprise the players with new and exclusive content.
I feel like with these two books, we'll reach our limit, and allowing only a short amount of additional content like some class variants, but nothing more.


seekerofshadowlight wrote:

Yes slow down. The more books you put out the more over saturated you make the market. The faster you put out books the faster you reach that point.

For many of us they are starting to get to that point already. They really do need to slow down.

The have slowed down. There are 3 option books, the APG, Ultimate Magic and soon Ultimate comabat. You guys act like there are 2 books a month coming out. They HAVE slowed down compared to 3.X. Dont like it? Dont buy it?

I feel for those who play in Pathfinder society, but that is something that has to be dealt with within the PF society rules. It is blatently selfish to seek to impose your desires on the rest of the community as a whole because you dont want new options.

Vote with your wallets, if you dont want it leave it on the shelf, and if the option books dont sell, paizo wont make them. But we all know they WILL sell, so all you are doing is trying to deny the people that would buy them their fun so you arent inconvenienced.

Scarab Sages

The problem is that we have to deal with it.

The APs no longer only assume the core rulebooks.
Yes, these rules are available online. That isn't the point. the point is I don't want to have to look up this stuff every time some player brings it to my table. Particularly if its a playtest that hasn't been balanced and overwhelms everyone else in the party.

At home, I can just say, "No, that isn't allowed." But in PFS, I have to hold the game to look up whatever the new rule is because some min-max player is trying to do something I think is over the top.

I like running PFS games. It has brought many new and returning players to Pathfinder. We grew so big in the Dallas/Fort Worth metroplex that we split into two locations, one in Dallas, one in Arlington.

Whatever. The application in PFS is my only complaint. I understand that some people want to play a fiendish half-dragon goblin gestalt warlock/rogue/weaponmaster with a 12-20 crit range, and that's fine. I just don't want that to become assumption in Paizo's other products.


Ravingdork wrote:
I am THE RAVINGDORK, and this is my RAVE: I don't think Paizo should stop making new player options. However, I DO think they should refocus on options that we can use with EXISTING characters (feats, spells, gear), rather than those that would require us to create whole new characters (base classes, archetypes, etc.).

I agree with this and it's a significant reason why I'm considering skipping Ultimate Magic. I'm running an ongoing game and nobody is replacing characters. If I introduce UM, it will just be more weight for me to carry across town and sit in a corner unused during the game.

Add to that the problems of rule bloat, player gripes, GM gripes and all the rest. I don't like my players spending more time hefting heavy books around the room to look up references than playing the game. It's already fairly bad with one copy of each of the core rulebook and APG being shared between six people. And no, we aren't going to all sit there with laptops and use the pdfs.

My main character in a game I'm playing in currently is a sorcerer, and from what I have heard of UM so far, there is zero for this character to be interested in. Sorcerer options are 1st level picks only and nothing shows up for them later on.


bugleyman wrote:
mdt wrote:

...because they'll be out of business in 6 months.

So yeah, if they want to publish it, go for it.
So you're all for Paizo going out of business in 6 months? Thanks for sticking the fork in your argument...it's done!

Yep, if they want to publish something that will put them out of business in six months, I wan them to go ahead and do it. It means they've stopped caring about the system. I don't see any reason to want them to stay in business if they don't care.

Take the fork out of your own eye before you try to stick it in mine...


wraithstrike wrote:
I agree. I am just glad Paizo is smart enough to hold the rule books to 2 a year instead of 6-10 a year.

Oh dear god, it's about time someone pointed this out.

For all of the complaining about too much crunch, I think Paizo is doing a commendable job and showing extreme discretion and restraint in not going the WOTC path during 3.5.

Also, maybe it's just me but when I buy one of these books I dont expect to like very single idea/concept/spell/feat/archtype what have you. I dont expect to use everything on the first day or the first session or even the first year. I'll raid books for ideas. Or I'll skim the book now and then remember that I saw something cool in it much later and go back and read the section in more detail to see if it's something I can use.

Right now I'm trying to formulate where I can put Ptolus, Hommlet and several Necromancer Games locales in Golarion and I bought some of this material over 10 years ago. Settings books and adventures I know but still...

My players ASK if they can use stuff from the APG and I expect that they'll ask about material from UM and UC. I'll permit most things withthe caveat that if it's something that's broken or abused (abusable) that it gets removed or toned down. Rational people come up with rational solutions to keep having fun. All this other stuff isnt boosting fun and sounds more like issues with individual people/groups/players/DM's than a problem with Paizo's relatively modest rules output.

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