Why don't Wizards get to add two free spells to their spell books as they advance as Mystic Theurges?


Rules Questions

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Jon Kines wrote:
Weapons cost more but, for the most part, last a lot longer as well. A +3 weapon can last the career of many a fighter, whereas many spells are upgraded, scale deficiently, or obsolete past a given level range. The superior scaling on weapons negates the aforementioned cost-benefit analysis.

Knowledge of a new spell also lasts the entire career of the wizard. He can make many scrolls or the spell. He can sell the knowledge to other wizards. He may be able to put that spell into potion, wand, or staff.

The usefulness of the spell doesn't generally end with the purchase of that spell. This is where it begins.


Bob_Loblaw wrote:
Jon Kines wrote:
I don't see a memorable side plot storyline, which I often put a number of hours into fleshing out, detailing, and integrating into a larger narrative as punishment. Often these adventures will have their own dungeon with risks and rewards for the entire party. I fail to see how it is punishment to run a campaign not as a hyperlinear narrative but a dynamic world.

I'm not talking about taking up a ton of campaign time with this. I'm talking about the characters actually using their skills to find out where an item is available to purchase. I'm talking about using their social skills to talk to the owner of the item to see what they need to get the item. Often it's a simple matter of paying for it. This allows me to have an NPC contact for the party for whatever reason.

Let me give you an example. Let's say that the wizard wants to pick up the spell teleport. He knows that he is near a capital city and that his odds of finding one there is pretty good. The party realizes that there are some other things they want to get as well so they head off. When they get there, the party makes a Diplomacy check (for gather information). Now the wizard knows there is a wizard's guild, a library, and a retired wizard in the city. He knows that he could certainly find it at the guild but getting to know the retired could provide a lot more than just a scroll of teleport. He decides to check out the guild for the price and sees that he would pay 1200 if he's not a member, 1100 if he joins (which carries some benefits and dues). He decides to seek out the retired wizard. Using Knowledge (local), he finds where this wizard lives. With another Diplomacy check, he befriends the wizard. Sure he ends up paying 1125 gold for the scroll, but he also finds that this wizard was a famous adventurer in his time. He has other goods that are unique or hard to find. He also is a great source of information on some of the more powerful beings in the area, seeing as he was either friend or foe of them in the past.
...

I think i can understand what you are saying, but i have to ask:

you had the wizard go through all of the above and he still paid for a scroll?
i don't mean to be offensive or anything, i am just curious as to why you had the wizard pay for a scroll


leo1925 wrote:

I think i can understand what you are saying, but i have to ask:

you had the wizard go through all of the above and he still paid for a scroll?
i don't mean to be offensive or anything, i am just curious as to why you had the wizard pay for a scroll

Because he still has to pay for stuff just like any other character. I don't use magic marts or auctions. The players still need to spend their wealth on gear just as before. I just role play it all out.


Bob_Loblaw wrote:
leo1925 wrote:

I think i can understand what you are saying, but i have to ask:

you had the wizard go through all of the above and he still paid for a scroll?
i don't mean to be offensive or anything, i am just curious as to why you had the wizard pay for a scroll
Because he still has to pay for stuff just like any other character. I don't use magic marts or auctions. The players still need to spend their wealth on gear just as before. I just role play it all out.

No you misunderstood me.

No i didn't ask why didn't he got the spell for free, i asked why did he had to buy the scroll and not just pay the fee to look at the wizard's spellbook and copy the spell from there.


Jon Kines wrote:
Who said they were all "recover this item"? The point is to weave the items into the story and to have multiple plotlines with multiple BBEG as opposed to a linear rail. Again you're assuming linear play, from this I'll wager you cut your teeth on 3.x. .

Ok, I can't just sit back anymore.

Some people prefer "Magic-mart" style games, and some people prefer Tolkien-esque "Magic is super rare and a wizard would never share spells without you first going to gather the sacred Macguffin for him" Neither is right, neither is wrong. I really wish you'd stop proseletyizing that the way you do it is "The One True Way (tm)" and that everyone who prefers the other style is in some way either a munchkin, powergamer, hasn't been playing for as long as you, or is just "doing it wrong".

I'll have you know that I have been playing for a long time, and you know what? I prefer the "Magic Mart" style of game. A long time ago, back in 2nd edition, my friends and I came to a simple conclusion: getting a scroll of Fireball doesn't require, nor warrant, a 2-3 session side quest. We found that treating it like that was just as silly as making players spend 2 hours walking around town haggling for the best cheese for their iron rations would be. We were ecstatic when this became the default assumption that this is how the game was going to be run, and the manner in which the rules are balanced around.

Do some people like it the other way? Yes, and that's fine, but it is no more right or wrong than liking chocolate or vanilla ice cream. And you know what? Vanilla is the standard, and it's a lot easier to add additional flavors and make vanilla taste exactly how you want it to..

I can understand, to limited extent, limiting some spells. For example, limiting access to Wish makes sense, because that is a spell that really CAN cause havoc in campaigns, and makes for an interesting side quest. But:

"Ho young wizard, you wish to copy Cone of Cold from my spellbook? That's no light request, first you must go forth and gather the 3 Sacred MacGuffins, from the forest of Random Monster Encounters, the dark Dungeon of Endless Perception Checks and Traps, and the the highest peaks of Mount Betchadidnttakeranksinclimb."

That's not adventuring. It's shopping with chance of death.


Pathfinder Rulebook Subscriber
Robb Smith wrote:

Good Stuff

"Ho young wizard, you wish to copy Cone of Cold from my spellbook? That's no light request, first you must go forth and gather the 3 Sacred MacGuffins, from the forest of Random Monster Encounters, the dark Dungeon of Endless Perception Checks and Traps, and the the highest peaks of Mount Betchadidnttakeranksinclimb."

That's not adventuring. It's shopping with chance of death.

Laughs really really hard and applauds simultaneously.


steamboat28 wrote:
If you don't already know them, can't cast them from memory, can't scribe them from a scroll or another spellbook, what does that leave you? Wizards don't get divine inspiration for spells; they either RESEARCH them

That's exactly where you get them.

At night, when the party sits down to camp and the fighter does his stretching exercises (or whatever), the wizard jots down notes in his spellbook, compares magical formulae, maybe prestidigiations some runes on the ground to see what they look like, adds a dash of mercury to some bat guano and tosses it in the fire, etc.

He does research all the time. The results of that research are "Pick two spells when you level up," just like the results of the fighter's practice is "Pick an extra feat every other level" and the results of the rogue's practice is "You got better at picking locks and disarming traps, even though we haven't seen an actual one for 6 months in-game."

Sovereign Court RPG Superstar 2009 Top 32, 2010 Top 8

1) RAW, Prestige classes don’t get the wizards ‘two free spells per level’
Pro: Which makes sense since it’s a class ability, not a function of spells. Also, the wizard has to give up something or why not prestige?
Con: No fair! The other casters don’t get an ability (they don’t have) gimped!
2) This isn’t fair because they don’t get any chances to gain spells.
Pro: This isn’t true, there are opportunities to buy spells ‘in town’ or in the adventure paths
Con: It is true! Look at ‘in the middle of nowhere’ paths like Serpent’s Skull! (since disproven)
3) Warrior types are penalized the same way in the middle of nowhere
Pro: Exactly
Con: Not true, the warriors can use the gear they find! (This seems to ignore characters who have invested feats in weapon X which then isn't in the listed treasure)
4) The DM can customize the gear found for the warrior types
Pro: And they can’t do this for wizards because…
Con: ...
5) Wizards pick up their ‘free spells’ in their down time, just like fighters pick up bonus feats.
Pro: Fighters taking prestige classes don’t get their fighter abilities automatically.
Con...

Did I miss any arguments?


Matthew Morris wrote:

1) RAW, Prestige classes don’t get the wizards ‘two free spells per level’

Pro: Which makes sense since it’s a class ability, not a function of spells. Also, the wizard has to give up something or why not prestige?

He has given up something, he's gimped himself by playing the atrocious wiz3/clr3. If you operate under the assumption that it is reasonable for a "prestige class" to be not only a significant power down from a base build, a significant power down with added penalties then I guess this rule makes sense to you. From the outside looking in, it's rather insipid. Then again, for me it isn't an issue because my players know better then to get anywhere near such a gimped build. For that matter, they avoid PrC's entirely, archetypes offer plenty of RP flavor and the PrC tradeoff is almost never worth it. Chances are a MT never lives to see level 7 with the horror that is wiz3/clr3 in the game of a DM who runs more as impartial referee than player advocate.


Pathfinder Rulebook Subscriber
Jon Kines wrote:
Matthew Morris wrote:

1) RAW, Prestige classes don’t get the wizards ‘two free spells per level’

Pro: Which makes sense since it’s a class ability, not a function of spells. Also, the wizard has to give up something or why not prestige?
He has given up something, he's gimped himself by playing the atrocious wiz3/clr3. If you operate under the assumption that it is reasonable for a "prestige class" to be not only a significant power down from a base build, a significant power down with added penalties then I guess this rule makes sense to you. From the outside looking in, it's rather insipid. Then again, for me it isn't an issue because my players know better then to get anywhere near such a gimped build. For that matter, they avoid PrC's entirely, archetypes offer plenty of RP flavor and the PrC tradeoff is almost never worth it. Chances are a MT never lives to see level 7 with the horror that is wiz3/clr3 in the game of a DM who runs more as impartial referee than player advocate.

The rule applies to ALL prestige classes a wizard might take.

I would suggest, if you don't mind, that rather than argue against the rule, perhaps you should be arguing that the MT prestige class needs to be changed instead? To allow the two spells, if you hate the 3/3 levels so much.

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder Companion, Rulebook, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber

The average spellbook will last many years longer than its author's lifetime. While many of those spellbooks will be lost or destroyed when its owner dies, a significant portion of them will be passed on, looted, etc.

Where do those spellbooks end up? Usually they end up in the library of guild or another wizard.

When a wizard pays to copy from a spellbook, the lender in many cases is not loaning out a personal spellbook, but one that's been found or bought.


Gjorbjond wrote:

The average spellbook will last many years longer than its author's lifetime. While many of those spellbooks will be lost or destroyed when its owner dies, a significant portion of them will be passed on, looted, etc.

Where do those spellbooks end up? Usually they end up in the library of guild or another wizard.

When a wizard pays to copy from a spellbook, the lender in many cases is not loaning out a personal spellbook, but one that's been found or bought.

Ok I'm going to have to admit that in my zeal to play devil's advocate I ramped up the hyperbole to excessive levels, it was too much and I apologize.

However, on another note, I think much of the source of this debate is the different campaign styles which are the prisms through which we are filtering such judgments. My current campaign is a Gothic Horror setting, and the tropes of Gothic Horror and High Fantasy are different and what works well in one doesn't work so well in another and vice-versa.

It would be remiss of me to not admit that if I'm DM'ing Planescape or Absalom, for example, I handle it much differently than Ravenloft or Ustalav precisely for these reasons. Given that perspective, I think much of this debate, other than me perhaps enjoying playing the snarky devil's advocate a tad more than is healthy, boils down to what playstyle serve each campaign style best.

This isn't to say I don't enjoy high fantasy, and I have fond memories of Greyhawk, Planescape, and homebrew of such. However, I am admittedly partial to Gothic Horror, and it is because I'm currently DM'ing such a campaign and working hard to maintain the style and feel necessary to bring such a setting alive that I may come across as somewhat adamant about scaling back certain aspects of gameplay.

That being said there is clearly room for all different styles of gameplay in the marketplace, I just happen to think a particular style is most suited to GM'ing Gothic Horror.


Kines, not to be rude or anything, but try to tone down your posts. They come across as condescending of anyone who doesn't play the way you play, and WRONGBADFUN-posts aren't very popular on these forums from what I've seen. Different people like different types of games, that's the way it is. In your world scrolls and magic items are rare, in others they're seen as quite normal and a part of everyday life.

To draw an analogy, this is a bit like alien life in sci-fi. Some people prefer sci-fi where alien life is rare or non-existent (battlestar: galactica, firefly) while others prefer sci-fi with much alien life, where it's part of the daily routine (star wars). It's not that one is objectively better or higher quality than the other, which is what other's been saying about magic items in games too; it's a matter of liking vanilla or chocolate ice cream, not between a gourmet restaurant and mcdonalds. Saying "yeah, firefly is to star wars what a gourmet restaurant is to mcdonalds" on a sci-fi board is a bit inflammatory, especially if you discuss with star wars fans. And that's a bit what you're doing right now.

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder Adventure, Rulebook Subscriber; Pathfinder Battles Case Subscriber
mdt wrote:
Robb Smith wrote:

Good Stuff

"Ho young wizard, you wish to copy Cone of Cold from my spellbook? That's no light request, first you must go forth and gather the 3 Sacred MacGuffins, from the forest of Random Monster Encounters, the dark Dungeon of Endless Perception Checks and Traps, and the the highest peaks of Mount Betchadidnttakeranksinclimb."

That's not adventuring. It's shopping with chance of death.

Laughs really really hard and applauds simultaneously.

I have sigged this quote on my GitP account, FYI.


Jon Kines wrote:
Ok I'm going to have to admit that in my zeal to play devil's advocate I ramped up the hyperbole to excessive levels, it was too much and I apologize.

No blood no foul. A tip I've found: If you're playing Devil's advocate, make sure to mention it. Doesn't translate well to the internet :)


Robb Smith wrote:
Jon Kines wrote:
Ok I'm going to have to admit that in my zeal to play devil's advocate I ramped up the hyperbole to excessive levels, it was too much and I apologize.

No blood no foul. A tip I've found: If you're playing Devil's advocate, make sure to mention it. Doesn't translate well to the internet :)

Point taken.


stringburka wrote:

Kines, not to be rude or anything, but try to tone down your posts. They come across as condescending of anyone who doesn't play the way you play, and WRONGBADFUN-posts aren't very popular on these forums from what I've seen. Different people like different types of games, that's the way it is. In your world scrolls and magic items are rare, in others they're seen as quite normal and a part of everyday life.

To draw an analogy, this is a bit like alien life in sci-fi. Some people prefer sci-fi where alien life is rare or non-existent (battlestar: galactica, firefly) while others prefer sci-fi with much alien life, where it's part of the daily routine (star wars). It's not that one is objectively better or higher quality than the other, which is what other's been saying about magic items in games too; it's a matter of liking vanilla or chocolate ice cream, not between a gourmet restaurant and mcdonalds. Saying "yeah, firefly is to star wars what a gourmet restaurant is to mcdonalds" on a sci-fi board is a bit inflammatory, especially if you discuss with star wars fans. And that's a bit what you're doing right now.

See my post above yours :P


Pathfinder Rulebook Subscriber
Jon Kines wrote:
Robb Smith wrote:
Jon Kines wrote:
Ok I'm going to have to admit that in my zeal to play devil's advocate I ramped up the hyperbole to excessive levels, it was too much and I apologize.

No blood no foul. A tip I've found: If you're playing Devil's advocate, make sure to mention it. Doesn't translate well to the internet :)

Point taken.

Especially if your icon is an openly hostile/evil icon. :)

That's part in jest obviously, but, the icon is an association with you. If the text can be read as hostile, then the icon is going to reinforce that reading. Not a conscious thing, but a subconscious thing on most reader's parts (and yours is pretty evil looking). :)

Contributor

I've removed some posts. Please be civil and keep in mind that text on the Intarwebs has an aura of confusion and much can be misinterpreted.


mdt wrote:
Jon Kines wrote:
Robb Smith wrote:
Jon Kines wrote:
Ok I'm going to have to admit that in my zeal to play devil's advocate I ramped up the hyperbole to excessive levels, it was too much and I apologize.

No blood no foul. A tip I've found: If you're playing Devil's advocate, make sure to mention it. Doesn't translate well to the internet :)

Point taken.

Especially if your icon is an openly hostile/evil icon. :)

That's part in jest obviously, but, the icon is an association with you. If the text can be read as hostile, then the icon is going to reinforce that reading. Not a conscious thing, but a subconscious thing on most reader's parts (and yours is pretty evil looking). :)

I was prepping for this horror campaign when I picked the icon so it fit. I usually change them to go with the theme of any ongoing campaign at the time.

Liberty's Edge

Pathfinder Companion Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber
mdt wrote:
I didn't say it was a great rule, only that it was a rule, and that it wasn't stupid. It's one of those rules that just is. It's not good, it's not bad, it just is.
Ravingdork wrote:


Given that the rule can't do anything to help the game, but can do plenty to hurt the game, I'm going to go out on a limb in my disagreement with you and call it "a stupid rule."

To repeat it again: it is one of the few advantages to being a wizard against taking a PRC.

From the wording of the spell class feature the MT is the only one not affected by this rule.

Liberty's Edge

Pathfinder Companion Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber
Bob_Loblaw wrote:
This little side quest may have taken up an hour of game time because of the role playing. The skill checks were easy enough but may have required a little investment from the player or at least required another party member to help out. The player got the item he wanted plus a contact. Had he joined the guild, the story would have moved in a different direction. He still would have got the item, but his contacts would have been different and he may have dues or responsibilities to go along with it.

So one or at most two player have kept the DM busy for an hour.

You play with an assistant DM or the players visit you at home separately from the rest of the group to do that?

You will burn an afternoon very fast if each non basic purchase take an hour for each member of teh group.

RPG Superstar 2012 Top 16

City of the Seven Spears also has a

Spoiler:
undead serpentman necromancer whose spellbook you get to salvage, with contents to be decided by the DM

It was also pointed out that your faction can shuffle goods off to market and bring you back stuff (which hardly lets you 'improve' your stuff, but still..)

==Aelryinth

Shadow Lodge

leo1925 wrote:
steamboat28 wrote:


Yes, it does. You have to factor in the cost for the spellbook itself, and the cost of scribing all your spells into it. While it's not as bad as buying scrolls, it's still expensive.

The cost of the spellbook? Seriously? 15gp is a lot?

Scribing a 1st level spell costs 10gp, the scroll costs 25gp,
scribing a 2nd level spell costs 40gp, the scroll costs 250gp,
scribing a 3rd level spell costs 90gp, the scroll costs 375gp,
and the difference keeps getting bigger and bigger, also these prices are for spells that don't have a costly material component (because if they do the scroll costs more).

The point is that, as other have pointed out, there are way too many ways to do that thing without compromising your own spellbook.

It's actually a bit cheaper than that. Quote from Chapter 9 of Core, emphasis added:

Replacing and Copying Spellbooks wrote:

A wizard can use the procedure for learning a spell to reconstruct a lost spellbook. If he already has a particular spell prepared, he can write it directly into a new book at the same cost required to write a spell into a spellbook. The process wipes the prepared spell from his mind, just as casting it would. If he does not have the spell prepared, he can prepare it from a borrowed spellbook and then write it into a new book.

Duplicating an existing spellbook uses the same procedure as replacing it, but the task is much easier. The time requirement and cost per page are halved.

Just tossing another branch onto the fire.

Example:
At Level 1, Universalist Wizard with 17 Intelligence starts out with his spellbook containing 20 cantrips and 6 1st-level spells. Note that the wording of the spellbook class feature could be interpreted as giving the Wizard a free spellbook. "A wizard begins play with a spellbook containing all 0-level wizard spells (except those from his prohibited schools, if any; see Arcane Schools) plus three 1st-level spells of his choice. The wizard also selects a number of additional 1st-level spells equal to his Intelligence modifier to add to the spellbook." -Emphasis added

To duplicate that Universalist spellbook would cost 95 gp (15gp for spellbook, 50gp for 20 cantrips, 30gp for the 1st-level spells). At first level, that's impractical. But, at later levels when one has a decent amount of wealth, it becomes a more realistic option. One can also use scroll-crafting to generate income. If you craft two scrolls of any given spell and sell one, you break even on cash but you're up one scroll. Sell both, your wealth is up the full cost of a scroll of that level.

The duplication costs for a spellbook are actually as follows, with comparison to scribing and scrolls:

Level of spell - Duplication cost - Scribing cost - Scroll minimum cost
0 - 2.5gp - 5gp - 12.5gp
1 - 5gp - 10gp - 25gp
2 - 20gp - 40gp - 150gp
3 - 45gp - 90gp - 375gp
4 - 80gp - 160gp - 700gp
5 - 125gp - 250gp - 1125gp
6 - 180gp - 360gp - 1650gp
7 - 245gp - 490gp - 2275gp
8 - 320gp - 640gp - 3000gp
9 - 405gp - 810gp - 3825gp

Material or focus components not included in any of the above.

-Edit-

Serpent's Skull:
My examples from Serpent's Skull were just some of the options. There are a boat-load (relatively speaking) of items for most any character. And the Faction shop isn't necessarily overly efficient, but it does exist. Sure, special-request items take a minimum of 1 week to retrieve, but they are retrievable.


leo1925 wrote:
Bob_Loblaw wrote:
leo1925 wrote:

I think i can understand what you are saying, but i have to ask:

you had the wizard go through all of the above and he still paid for a scroll?
i don't mean to be offensive or anything, i am just curious as to why you had the wizard pay for a scroll
Because he still has to pay for stuff just like any other character. I don't use magic marts or auctions. The players still need to spend their wealth on gear just as before. I just role play it all out.

No you misunderstood me.

No i didn't ask why didn't he got the spell for free, i asked why did he had to buy the scroll and not just pay the fee to look at the wizard's spellbook and copy the spell from there.

I did misunderstand. However, this exact situation didn't come up. It was just an explanation of how I would handle it. If the player made a good enough Diplomacy check, he may be able to just copy the spell from the spell book. I role play it all out and we take it from there. Some wizards have scrolls lying around that they don't mind selling. Some have their spell books in a more secure location. This is especially true of non-adventuring wizards who don't need to access their spell books as often.


Diego Rossi wrote:
Bob_Loblaw wrote:
This little side quest may have taken up an hour of game time because of the role playing. The skill checks were easy enough but may have required a little investment from the player or at least required another party member to help out. The player got the item he wanted plus a contact. Had he joined the guild, the story would have moved in a different direction. He still would have got the item, but his contacts would have been different and he may have dues or responsibilities to go along with it.

So one or at most two player have kept the DM busy for an hour.

You play with an assistant DM or the players visit you at home separately from the rest of the group to do that?

You will burn an afternoon very fast if each non basic purchase take an hour for each member of teh group.

Not at all. During this time the group is usually together. If not, then they have their own things they are doing. This isn't something that happens every time we get together. It also may not take even an hour of time.

Usually, if the group splits, they split into two groups and take care of business. It's not a problem for them or myself to do this. They get some role playing in and everyone gets a chance to use their skills. They have managed to meet a lot of different people and have changed the course of more than one adventure by doing this.

So if they do this once every 4 weeks or so, and we game for 6 hours, once a week, they have taken up about one hour out of 24-25 hours of game time. We don't mind.

There have been times when we can deal with some things via email. There isn't a need to have them come over for an hour individually for this. They like the fact that some of them have contacts that the others have never met nor heard of.

I am actually going to be using an assistant GM starting this week but it is for a completely different reason. One of the players will be bringing her boyfriend over and he doesn't really get into the role playing. He just likes the combat. So he will be running some of the opponents during combat. I don't need him to do so but I don't like someone just sitting around watching us play for hours.


You know it's funny about this thread popping up, I just noticed that particular ruling just the other day and believe me it caused some lively discussions in my group. I had also been considering starting my own thread about it and what our final call on it was, so what the hey, here goes.

I don't think this actually qualifies as a Rule, it seems more like a Ruling, albeit by the most qualified DM you could find. That said, in this case I think he got it wrong and here's why. Yes the wizards spellbook is a class feature but it's a frontloaded feature, when a wizard takes a PrC it doesn't burst into flame or something. In the feature description it reiterates something that has already been stated as a part of his spells, to wit:

Pathfinder SRD wrote:


Spells
A wizard casts arcane spells drawn from the sorcerer/wizard spell list. A wizard must choose and prepare his spells ahead of time.
To learn, prepare, or cast a spell, the wizard must have an Intelligence score equal to at least 10 + the spell level. The Difficulty Class for a saving throw against a wizard's spell is 10 + the spell level + the wizard's Intelligence modifier.
A wizard can cast only a certain number of spells of each spell level per day. His base daily spell allotment is given on Table: Wizard. In addition, he receives bonus spells per day if he has a high Intelligence score (see Table: Ability Modifiers and Bonus Spells).
A wizard may know any number of spells. He must choose and prepare his spells ahead of time by getting 8 hours of sleep and spending 1 hour studying his spellbook. While studying, the wizard decides which spells to prepare.

Spells Gained at a New Level: Wizards perform a certain amount of spell research between adventures. Each time a character attains a new wizard level, he gains two spells of his choice to add to his spellbook. The two free spells must be of spell levels he can cast. If he has chosen to specialize in a school of magic, one of the two free spells must be from his specialty school.

And when he takes a spellcasting PrC say Diabolist it says:

Pathfinder SRD wrote:


Spells per Day
When a new diabolist level is gained, the character gains new spells per day as if she had also gained a level in a spellcasting class she belonged to before she added the prestige class. She does not, however, gain other benefits a character of that class would have gained. If a character had more than one spellcasting class before becoming a diabolist, she must decide to which class she adds each level of diabolist for the purpose of determining spells per day.

I submit that adding two spells per level to your spellbook is a function of the spells class feature that is, ostensibly being upgraded by the PrC. If someone were to argue that that's not what the Spells per Day PrC class feature explicitly says, I would counter-argue if you are going to espouse an utterly RAW reading of the above, as I see it NO spellcasting class gets any actual new spells, it says Spells per Day, period, not Spells Known as with the Sorcerer or however any other class accesses new spells, and that my friends is patently ridiculous.

Scarab Sages

I actually started out in 2ed. I've played shadow run, torg, 3rd and 4th edition, a rebirth of castles and crusades, and a plethora of custom-made table top rpgs. More, I'm sure, that I don't remember at the moment.

Every story is linear, in which the story can only advance forward, or not at all. It doesn't really matter whether the players decide to destroy the were-rat raiders or save the king from that assassination attempt. Either way, the story advances. I think you're implying that a linear story means the characters ONLY have the option of saving the king. While you can interpret it such as you wish, I have only seen it thus applied to a video genre, and only when trying to compare to a "sandbox" game. But even in sandbox games, the character's story line is still advancing in a linear manner, as subplots are being completed. Put another way, the timeline of the story is the linear object. If time is being passed in the story, the line advances.

But does it matter whether a person is "old school" or not? Everyone here is a gamer. It's something we all share in common, and something we all enjoy. Most of the folks here in this forum also enjoy exploring and examining the rules as written and as intended. And all dms are, or should be, running their campaigns as best they can to keep themselves and their players interested and involved. There's no "wrong" way to play this game, as long as everyone is having fun. Only cautions about game balance and whether one's players will enjoy a particular style or not.

I've played in magic-scarce campaigns. I've played in magic-mart campaigns. And I've played in high-magic campaigns where everywhere you go, magical gear is just pouring down on you. And in every circumstance, I've found that going after monster x because you found out he has the belt of ogre's strength gets really boring. That's my personal experience, and that's the feedback I receive from my players. So I minimize that effect and focus more on character and world development. My players are 45, 43, 37, 32, and 24. Clearly your experience is different, but it doesn't mean that mine is any less relevant or applicable. Doesn't mean it's any more relevant either.

Keirion:

Your first quote includes the line "Each time a character attains a new wizard level"

Your second quote includes the line "gains new spells per day" and "does not, however, gain other benefits a character of that class would have gained"

Spells gained at a new level are not the same thing as spells per day.

The rules as worded seem pretty clear that the two spells from leveling do not come automatically. Personally, I think that in most campaigns it's a marginal benefit anyhow. And in those campaigns where it's not, I would probably house rule the spells in. Either automatically, or by purchasing them with a feat or trait. I mean, if for some reason the character can't access spells with the same ease that a fighter can go purchase a longsword, or battle axe, then it would make sense to me to provide the caster in question with at least one or two spells that are useful.

I know as a player, I wouldn't want to be unable to use my 4th level spell slots simply because I couldn't get a hold of any 4th level scrolls. And as a DM, if I'm not preventing the fighter from taking his feats, or weapon/armor training, I would feel like I was picking on the wizard for preventing him/her from being able to use their class feature as intended. And if I *was* preventing my fighter from taking his feats or benefiting from his weapon/armor training, I would be sure to see a riot from my players without a very good reason and avery temporary duration :p

Also, prestige classes include the line: "(spells known) if he is a spontaneous caster."

So it's explicit in some cases that spontaneous casters gain spells known as well, but it's not explicit that wizards gain 2 spells/level for leveling in a non-wizard class.

Pathfinder seems to be holding to the idea that prestige classes should not be more powerful overall than the base class. So you see classes like mystic theurge where the prestige class is generally weaker than following one class. The tradeoff is spell flexibility. If, however, you can't easily get your hands on scrolls to increase your known spells then the mystic theurge goes from being an entertaining master of flexibility to a class without flexibility or casting power. So if there's any question about it, check with your dm about whether it will be playable in your current campaign. In any case, the mystic theurge often fills the role of the 5th party member well, able to stand in for any party member with just a moment's preparation.

Shadow Lodge

Keirion M. Weiwyrdson wrote:
Pathfinder SRD wrote:
Spells Gained at a New Level: Wizards perform a certain amount of spell research between adventures. Each time a character attains a new wizard level, he gains two spells of his choice to add to his spellbook. The two free spells must be of spell levels he can cast. If he has chosen to specialize in a school of magic, one of the two free spells must be from his specialty school.
I submit that adding two spells per level to your spellbook is a function of the spells class feature that is, ostensibly being upgraded by the PrC. If someone were to argue that that's not what the Spells per Day PrC class feature explicitly says, I would counter-argue if you are going to espouse an utterly RAW reading of the above, as I see it NO spellcasting class gets any actual new spells, it says Spells per Day, period, not Spells Known as with the Sorcerer or however any other class accesses new spells, and that my friends is patently ridiculous.

Except it isn't quite patently ridiculous. Spontaneous casters call out under spells known when they get new spells. Wizards also call it out, and they call it out with a specific condition, bolded above for emphasis. It does not say, "Each time the wizard character gains a level," it states, "each time a character attains a new wizard level..." Every spell-casting class calls out at some point how new spells known are attained, spoilered for length:

Spells Attained:
  • Bard - "At each new bard level, he gains one or more new spells, as indicated on Table 3–4." Spontaneous caster, only gains when new Bard level is gained.
  • Cleric - "A cleric may prepare and cast any spell on the cleric spell list, provided that she can cast spells of that level, but she must choose which spells to prepare during her daily meditation." Translation, a Cleric knows her entire spell-list at level 1, limited only by what spell slots she has.
  • Druid - "A druid may prepare and cast any spell on the druid spell list, provided that she can cast spells of that level, but she must choose which spells to prepare during her daily meditation." Same as Cleric.
  • Paladin - "A paladin may prepare and cast any spell on the paladin spell list, provided that she can cast spells of that level, but she must choose which spells to prepare during her daily meditation." Same as Cleric.
  • Ranger - "A ranger may prepare and cast any spell on the ranger spell list, provided that he can cast spells of that level, but he must choose which spells to prepare during his daily meditation." Same as Cleric.
  • Sorcerer - "At each new sorcerer level, she gains one or more new spells, as indicated on Table 3–15." Same as Bard.
  • Wizard - "At each new wizard level, he gains two new spells of any spell level or levels that he can cast (based on his new wizard level) for his spellbook. At any time, a wizard can also add spells found in other wizards’ spellbooks to his own (see Chapter 9)." Similar to Bard, but not exactly the same given the stipulation that spells can be added in different ways not based on leveling.
  • Alchemist - "At each new alchemist level, he gains one new formula of any level that he can create. An alchemist can also add formulae to his book just like a wizard adds spells to his spellbook, using the same costs, pages, and time requirements." Similar to Wizard, but formulae aren't quite spells.
  • Inquisitor - "At each new inquisitor level, she gains one or more new spells as indicated on Table 2–4." Same as Bard.
  • Oracle - "At each new oracle level, she gains one or more new spells, as indicated on Table 2–6." Same as Bard.
  • Witch - "At each new witch level, she adds two new spells of any spell level or levels that she can cast (based on her new witch level) to her familiar. A witch can also add additional spells to her familiar through a special ritual (see sidebar)." In essence, the same as Wizard with a caveat. "At 2nd level, and every two levels thereafter, a witch’s patron adds new spells to a witch’s list of spells known."
  • Every spell-casting Prestige Class also calls out when new spells are attained. Most of them specifically call out that spells known are only gained for spontaneous casters. Spontaneous caster spells are in-born, not exterior. A Wizard's spells are exterior to her/his body. It's not patently ridiculous.

    -Edit-
    Ninjaed by Magicdealer

    Shadow Lodge

    Tacking on a bit to Magicdealer, since you're Prestiging out of Wizard, losing the 2 spells per level is equivalent to a Fighter losing his bonus feats for Prestiging out, or losing the progression on Armor/Weapon training because he Prestiged out. Taking a level in a Prestige class is the same as taking a level in another base class. You advance one at the expense of not advancing the other. Some Prestige classes call out that they advance specific features of specific base classes, like stacking sneak attack dice or giving new spells known to spontaneous casters, but that's called out in the Prestige Class. If it's not stated explicitly, it doesn't happen. As was stated earlier, if it's not a written rule, it's a house-rule.

    Dark Archive

    TriOmegaZero wrote:
    mdt wrote:
    Robb Smith wrote:

    Good Stuff

    "Ho young wizard, you wish to copy Cone of Cold from my spellbook? That's no light request, first you must go forth and gather the 3 Sacred MacGuffins, from the forest of Random Monster Encounters, the dark Dungeon of Endless Perception Checks and Traps, and the the highest peaks of Mount Betchadidnttakeranksinclimb."

    That's not adventuring. It's shopping with chance of death.

    Laughs really really hard and applauds simultaneously.
    I have sigged this quote on my GitP account, FYI.

    It was my facebook status for a while

    Shadow Lodge

    Name Violation wrote:
    TriOmegaZero wrote:
    mdt wrote:
    Robb Smith wrote:

    Good Stuff

    "Ho young wizard, you wish to copy Cone of Cold from my spellbook? That's no light request, first you must go forth and gather the 3 Sacred MacGuffins, from the forest of Random Monster Encounters, the dark Dungeon of Endless Perception Checks and Traps, and the the highest peaks of Mount Betchadidnttakeranksinclimb."

    That's not adventuring. It's shopping with chance of death.

    Laughs really really hard and applauds simultaneously.
    I have sigged this quote on my GitP account, FYI.
    It was my facebook status for a while

    I may have to make it mine for a little bit. :)


    mdt wrote:

    Especially if your icon is an openly hostile/evil icon. :)

    That's part in jest obviously, but, the icon is an association with you. If the text can be read as hostile, then the icon is going to reinforce that reading. Not a conscious thing, but a subconscious thing on most reader's parts (and yours is pretty evil looking). :)

    Is anyone else freaked out that the kitty can type?

    ;)


    Pathfinder Rulebook Subscriber
    Slaunyeh wrote:
    mdt wrote:

    Especially if your icon is an openly hostile/evil icon. :)

    That's part in jest obviously, but, the icon is an association with you. If the text can be read as hostile, then the icon is going to reinforce that reading. Not a conscious thing, but a subconscious thing on most reader's parts (and yours is pretty evil looking). :)

    Is anyone else freaked out that the kitty can type?

    ;)

    This from a typing dragon mask hanging on the wall?

    ;)

    Silver Crusade

    Pathfinder Adventure, Rulebook, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber

    First off I want to thank everyone for taking their time to express their thoughts and post them. I don’t have time to wade through 187 posts, at last count.

    My original intention was to ask a simple question: Why?

    Why does a sorcerer, and a cleric continue to get new spells as if they had progressed as clerics or sorcerers when they advance in a prestige class say Mystic Theurge, and why does a wizard not?

    Is it a question of game balance? Is it a question of over all game design? How does this improve the game?

    My apologies to Liz Courtis, I did not intend this thread to be like a bucket of gasoline into which a lit match was dropped.

    There seems to have been a bit of a spat over how willing and open wizards would be about their magical spells and research, in other words sharing their spells.

    Mathew Morris thanks you for summing up the discussion on this thread. It had been very helpful to me.

    Jon Kines, thank you for agreeing with me in one of your earlier posts.

    Now this may be a bit of a tangent but bear with me. When I can’t play Pathfinder, I play World of Warcraft. They just came out with a patch. So often I have heard people complain about this getting nerfed, or that they don’t like that change, WTF was Blizzard thinking etc.

    With the transition from Wrath of the Litch King to Cataclysm, a big change happened. The Litch king gear I worked literally months for, was now not worth the “green” gear that was now available in Cataclysm. I was understandably irritated. But there isn’t anything I can do about it other then stew in my” nerd rage”. Well I suppose I could stop playing Wow and find another game my Macintosh computer will run.

    With Pathfinder, luckily we can and are expected to mold the game to our own tastes and preferences.

    “The Most Important Rule 
The rules in this book are here to help you breath life into your characters and the world they explore. While they are designed to make your game easy and exciting, you might find that some of them do not suit the style of play that your gaming group enjoys. Remember that these rules are yours. You can change them to fit your needs.” Page 9 Pathfinder core rulebook

    Unlike World of Warcraft players like myself, Pathfinder players also like myself, are not stuck with the developer’s opinions, and in this case, I happen to disagree with Mr. Bulmahn’s opinion.

    I believe my “counter argument” was a very reasonable one

    As a cleric advances in level, he gains a deeper understanding of his faith’s mysteries, and he grows closer to his god, and his god then grants him more powerful miracles or “spells”. This process goes on has he levels. This process continues through cleric levels and mystic theurge levels. The process is the same.

    As a sorcerer gains a deeper understanding of himself, his heritage and his power, he learns to use progressively more and more powerful spells. This is reflected as he levels. The process continues through sorcerer levels and mystic theurge levels. The process is the same.

    A wizard is assumed to do a certain amount of research and study between his adventures. As he does so he figures out things he didn’t know before and is able to puzzle out new spells. This represents the two new spells he would get for free as he advances each level. This process would continue from level to level.

    And so I think that a wizard, just as a sorcerer, would continue to get his two free spells he gleans from doing his studying in his spell book during his down time. What is good for the goose is good for the gander simply put.

    Now I think I should say, I copied a “faq” quote that appears on the SRD page, quoting Jason Bulmon’s comment and when he said it on the web. The Pathfinder SRD website makes a distinction from something copied from and Official errata, and a copied opinion. This was Jason Bulmahn’s opinion. I believe an earlier poster pointed out this distinction, which I did not initially notice.

    Also, from reading both the entry about the Mystic Theurge in the first printing of the Pathfinder rule book, and the 4th printing of the Pathfinder rule book, both of which I have, the text has not changed. I also read the PDF of the errata of the 3rd printing of the Rulebook. Mr. Bulmahn’s thoughts were not reflected by a change in the text of either the rulebook, or the errata PDF.

    So in summation, in my opinion, I find the argument “the two free spells is a class feature not part of his spell casting” to be an insufficient reason to specifically disallow a Mystic Theurge with wizard levels from figuring out two spells to put in his spell book as he advances in level which represents his research in his down time if a sorcerer continues to get “spells known” and a cleric gets to learn a new level of spells as well.

    I don’t think anybody “official” needs to wade in and solve this question for us. We can solve it for ourselves.

    For some of us we will read the Raw text and include MR. Bulmahn’s opinion. For others, we will read the text, find we have a question and find an answer that suits how we want to run the game. Neither is right neither is wrong. I suppose its all in how we interpret things and how we want to run our own games.

    Again thank you for your thoughts and posts.


    Robb Smith wrote:

    "Ho young wizard, you wish to copy Cone of Cold from my spellbook? That's no light request, first you must go forth and gather the 3 Sacred MacGuffins, from the forest of Random Monster Encounters, the dark Dungeon of Endless Perception Checks and Traps, and the the highest peaks of Mount Betchadidnttakeranksinclimb."

    Hilarious, I think this needs its own thread of amusingly arduous quests!

    RPG Superstar 2012 Top 16

    Kindly note that a Wizard does indeed spend his down time studying and scribing and rehearsing and gaining his class abilities.

    A Mystic Theurge, on the other hand, is practicing the balancing of wizard and cleric spells, drawing on the powers of each, praying, figuring out new spell combinations, and practicing the casting of all those spells so that his utility with them increases.

    He doesn't have time to research new spells. He's busy practicing HIS class abilities for his next level.

    Now, if he wants to ignore a level of Mystic Theurge, and turn back to JUST practicing wizardry for his next level, guess what? He gets free spells.

    Why is that so difficult to understand? The Mystic Theurge gets a Level of CLeric casting when he takes a Level of Wizard casting. The Wizard gets Two Free Spells when he takes a level of Wizard casting. Why, praytell, would the MT get the same benefit a pure Wizard would, AND the improvement to clerical ability, too?

    ===Aelryinth

    Grand Lodge

    Pathfinder Adventure, Rulebook Subscriber; Pathfinder Battles Case Subscriber

    Because he paid his dues to get into a class that provides that benefit.

    Liberty's Edge

    TriOmegaZero wrote:
    Because he paid his dues to get into a class that provides that benefit.

    TOZ, my pardon if I take this in a direction different than you may have intended, but it's a decent point of departure on something I've been observing as an undercurrent in this thread.

    The hallmark of a prestige class is that it has prerequisites that must be met to enter. Yet, the general perception is that a prestige class should be better than the base class options. While prestige classes may allow for specialization, class features, or combinations of class features that aren't available otherwise, they should be relatively balanced with base classes.

    Grand Lodge

    Pathfinder Adventure, Rulebook Subscriber; Pathfinder Battles Case Subscriber

    I don't think the general perception is that prestige classes should be better. Indeed, it was a Pathfinder design goal that they should NOT be better, only different. I agree with that design goal, even if I am not sure they succeeded at it.

    Shadow Lodge

    Bouncing off of Aelryinth, Clerics/Druids/Paladins/Rangers never actually learn new spells. RAW, they know their entire spell-list at Caster Level 1. They're only bound in casting by their Caster Level. That's part of why a prepared-Divine half of a Mystic Theurge can gain new spells where a Prepared-Arcane doesn't. They aren't gaining new spells, they're just gaining access to new caster-levels, which a prepared-Arcane half would also do. Prepared-Divine just has a slight class-feature advantage in this case. For quotes proving this, I copied the relevant sentences from every published base class in an above post.

    It would always be possible to try running a Sorcerer-Oracle-Mystic Theurge. Save a bit of the potential MAD issue and trade it in for needing more levels to qualify.


    Aelryinth wrote:
    Why, praytell, would the MT get the same benefit a pure Wizard would, AND the improvement to clerical ability, too?

    It wouldn't be granting the same benefits the pure wizard would. They still would not gain bonus feats and specialist school powers.

    But to answer the question "why would the MT get the free two spells per level that a pure Wizard would?" My answer would be that, otherwise, getting access to new Wizard spell levels would be less fun if all I could do with them was cast the same spells I've had for the last two levels except maybe Stilled or Extended. In my opinion it is not unbalancing or unfair to the other classes to give the Wizard/Mystic Theurge new free spells in his spellbook so he can seem to better represent him becoming a better Wizard in a more apparent way than the slightly higher durations, damage, and such.

    I'm fine with the ruling in PFS and other games, but I think this is a case where holding precisely to the rules as written is less fun and makes less sense.

    Silver Crusade

    Pathfinder Adventure, Rulebook, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber

    Thank you all for your responses.

    Aelrynth and jligher on this point we happen to disagree. Which is fine.

    I think that, a character who is a mystic theurge, would continue the practices he began before entering the prestige class.

    This would include on the clerical side, praying and studying the mysteries of his faith. And by doing so presumably he comes to a better understanding of his faith and god, and his god grants him better spells thus he levels up. He continues to do the same thing through his levels of mystic theurge.

    On the Wizardly side, the character would be constantly reading and studying, going back to his notes and figuring things out. This study and research would culminate in the two “free” spells he can add to his spell book. I think this would continue as he progresses through levels of mystic theurge. He would continue to read, to study to re examine his notes etc. Thus I think it would be very reasonable to allow two “free spells” that the mystic theurge can add to his spell book.

    I happen to disagree with you on whether a mystic theurge would have time to do arcane research. I think the arcane research would be at the heart of his “leveling”.

    Now in terms of time, it does make sense that it takes more time to master the spell casting mysteries of two classes. I think this time is reflected in the 3 levels “penalty” a mystic theurge has when compared with a single classed caster of equal level. For example an 8th level mystic theurge casts as a 5th level wizard and a 5th level cleric. He finally gets acess to 3rd level spells. A single classed character would have gained access to 3rd level spells when their characters reached 5th level.

    When a character begins taking levels in mystic-theruge, he stops progressing in his domain powers, his channel energy, his familiar, and his “school” granted ability.

    His spell casting does continue, and in my opinion, continuing access to new spells by level progression is part of that. In my home games, I will allow wizards to continue to get their spells, especially if sorcerers clerics oracles and witches continue to get theirs.

    This is a point on which we have different opinions which is fine. The nice thing about this game is that we can shape it to fit our own preferences.

    Again thank you all for your thoughts and ideas. While it is easy to agree with people who share your perspective, I also appreciate the perspectives that I don’t agree with. There is always something new to learn.

    Jlighter, i would love to try a sorcerer/ oracle/ mystic theruge. Flavor wise it would be loads of fun to play.

    Unfortunatly you would need 4 levels of sorcerer, and 4 levels of oracle before one could get into Mystic theurge at 9th level. I believe you would not gain access to 3rd level spells ( at 6th level caster level) untill 11 level. Ugg.

    Flavor wise it would be fun.....but I'm not sure how i could make the combination work.

    again thank you all for your thoughts

    RPG Superstar 2012 Top 16

    And my opinion goes in the opposite direction.
    The Wizard has remarkably few benefits for his class. free spells is one of them.

    PrC's tend to have more benefits then straight classes. The benefits they grant are different.

    In effect, the free spells a Wiz gets are a +GP bonus every levels. Wizards can get spells easily by buying them, it's part of the game. Wizards focusing on being Wizards instead of focusing on being MT's get a couple spells for free that they work out while their MT associate is on his knees praying and learning how divine and arcane spells interact, something the wizard can't do.

    The MT can go right ahead and spend some gold to get his Wiz spells.

    A few extra hundred to thousand Gp/level for the Wizard isn't going to imbalance anything, but giving it away runs counter to class design. It's a benefit fo being a wizard...not a big one, but a convenient one. A PrC has to jump through an extra hoop or two.

    ==Aelryinth

    Shadow Lodge

    As a side note, I think the Witch lands in the same boat as a Wizard with regards to MT.

    Still, it's a judgement call. Those of us who think they should get the spells will let them, those of us who don't won't. I'm actually in your camp on this one, even as vehemently as I argued for the other side. I'm not sure if in my non-PFS games I'll support or refute the ruling, but I'll wait until it comes up to decide.

    Thanks for the lively discussion, all of you.


    jlighter wrote:

    As a side note, I think the Witch lands in the same boat as a Wizard with regards to MT.

    Still, it's a judgement call. Those of us who think they should get the spells will let them, those of us who don't won't. I'm actually in your camp on this one, even as vehemently as I argued for the other side. I'm not sure if in my non-PFS games I'll support or refute the ruling, but I'll wait until it comes up to decide.

    Thanks for the lively discussion, all of you.

    Fortunately, if you house rule this otherwise for w/e reason, I doubt that Lisa, Wes, Jason, and James are going to march a pitchfork wielding torch bearing mob on your house. :P

    Grand Lodge

    Pathfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
    steamboat28 wrote:


    That being said, I advocate that every Wizard keep at least three spellbooks: A grimoire at home, trapped and made of high-quality and durability materials; an arcanabula, or travel spellbook, to take with him on his journeys, which carries only necessities and leaves enough blank space for new scrolls and spells found during an adventure; and one you don't mind being captured by your enemies and used against you. This one, naturally, only has the cheap, easy, generic-brand spells.

    Since you'd be carrying your acanabula with you, I'm not sure how you'd avoid having that one captured along with the third book.


    Jon Kines wrote:
    jlighter wrote:

    As a side note, I think the Witch lands in the same boat as a Wizard with regards to MT.

    Still, it's a judgement call. Those of us who think they should get the spells will let them, those of us who don't won't. I'm actually in your camp on this one, even as vehemently as I argued for the other side. I'm not sure if in my non-PFS games I'll support or refute the ruling, but I'll wait until it comes up to decide.

    Thanks for the lively discussion, all of you.

    Fortunately, if you house rule this otherwise for w/e reason, I doubt that Lisa, Wes, Jason, and James are going to march a pitchfork wielding torch bearing mob on your house. :P

    That was hilarius.

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