Homeless woman's arrest for sending son to Norwalk school stirs debate
In her four-page arrest warrant, police say McDowell stole up to $15,686 in educational services from the city of Norwalk -- the documented average cost for educating a child in 2010.
Can I sue my school for $15,000 if I can prove my daughter did not receive an average education?
In her four-page arrest warrant, police say McDowell stole up to $15,686 in educational services from the city of Norwalk -- the documented average cost for educating a child in 2010.
Can I sue my school for $15,000 if I can prove my daughter did not receive an average education?
Only the difference between that and the value of the education she did receive. You are welcome to spend 25+ K proving the value of pre-primary school education.
Seriously, at times our focus on money and litigation is becoming almost like an obsession. Besides, isn't the kid 5? I don't see what's the big deal is here - if he weren't enrolled in that kindergarten, he'd be enrolled in another one. Should then the districts sue each other?
Since I'm not sure there was any malicious intent on the behalf of the woman, I think a slap-on-the-wrist fine (as in, tolerable even for her financial status) and making her enroll the kid in the other district may be more appropriate.
Only the difference between that and the value of the education she did receive. You are welcome to spend 25+ K proving the value of pre-primary school education.
I was trying to highlight the ludicrousness of the entire event. This woman and her child need a home, not jailing and fines.
They need to make an example out of this parent and give her the maximum sentence, which I believe is 20 years. Whether you like it or not, she broke the law and she must be punished for it. It will prevent other parents from lying about where their children live, so they can get into "better" schools.
I know this may be a strange concept for you, but sometimes the law is wrong.
Srsly? We should punish parents for wanting what is best for their children?
How Dare She!!!..In this teabagger world she should find a cardboard box in a poor school district.(Our nation is so upside down)
I know this may be a strange concept for you, but theft is theft regardless of how poor you may be. This woman, through her child, received community services she was not qualified to receive. Regardless of her motivations or indigent circumstances, she burdened other people.
There is a big difference between wanting what is best for your children, and stealing what is best for your children.
In this case, however, it is fairly obvious that she lacks mens rea. Criminal prosecution would not be appropriate, but obviously her son shouldn't be allowed to continue attending the school.
Bridgeport is a tough town -- there are parts of that city in which you can't stop at light -- cars get stripped bare in seconds. Under no reasonable standards would anyone send a child there to be "educated" in anything other than gang life. Norwalk, on the flip side, while not as affluent as the neighboring cities like Darien (AKA "This Whole Town is a Yacht Club"), boasts schools that can actually pass minimal standards.
Until that sort of inequity can be mended, stuff like this will happen. And, having lived in Connecticut, I wonder if some of the outrage isn't a "there goes the neighborhood" prejudicial thing -- the attitude towards Jews in nearby New Canaan, for example, strongly reminded me of The Merchant of Venice.
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While I understand that, technically she broke the law by committing fraud, I find the degree of punishment that could be directed at her to be slightly extreme. A potential 20 years in jail and $15,000 fine, just because she wanted to get her kid a good education at a quality school! That's f+%*ed up.
Granted, the entire education system is pretty f+++ed up. This is just one more example of how bad it is.
wanders through thread
In her four-page arrest warrant, police say McDowell stole up to $15,686 in educational services from the city of Norwalk -- the documented average cost for educating a child in 2010.
Yes, she needs to get the maximum punishment according to the Law. Its like she broke into the school and stole $15,686 from them. That is Grand Theft, a felony, and it is punishable by up to 20 years. Our society cannot and should not tolerate people who break the law for any reason. The fact that she is homeless and was trying to help her son have no bearing on the case. Obviously, the child is not to blame and he should be placed in an appropriate foster home.
continues wandering through thread
I know this may be a strange concept for you, but theft is theft regardless of how poor you may be.
No, not strange, binary perhaps. It seems to me you choose to view the world as black and white.
Until that sort of inequity can be mended, stuff like this will happen.
It seems the system is set up to punish the have nots to protect the haves.
It was once legal to own another human being, so you will have to forgive me if I am a bit dubious of the absolute rule of law.
In her four-page arrest warrant, police say McDowell stole up to $15,686 in educational services from the city of Norwalk -- the documented average cost for educating a child in 2010.Yes, she needs to get the maximum punishment according to the Law. Its like she broke into the school and stole $15,686 from them. That is Grand Theft, a felony, and it is punishable by up to 20 years. Our society cannot and should not tolerate people who break the law for any reason. The fact that she is homeless and was trying to help her son have no bearing on the case. Obviously, the child is not to blame and he should be placed in an appropriate foster home.
I wonder just how many laws you have broken in your lifetime, Leafar? My guess is more than one.
I know this may be a strange concept for you, but theft is theft regardless of how poor you may be. This woman, through her child, received community services she was not qualified to receive. Regardless of her motivations or indigent circumstances, she burdened other people.
There is a big difference between wanting what is best for your children, and stealing what is best for your children.
In this case, however, it is fairly obvious that she lacks mens rea. Criminal prosecution would not be appropriate, but obviously her son shouldn't be allowed to continue attending the school.
Yes. Poor people should remain uneducated. And poor. I am pro-theft. Rich people do it literally all the time, but get away with it because of loopholes and lawyers, and if those don't work they simply throw money at it and make it go away.
Yes. Poor people should remain uneducated. And poor. I am pro-theft. Rich people do it literally all the time, but get away with it because of loopholes and lawyers, and if those don't work they simply throw money at it and make it go away.
The Golden Rule…only now they have convinced people that the rules created by the Gold are for their own protection.
In her four-page arrest warrant, police say McDowell stole up to $15,686 in educational services from the city of Norwalk -- the documented average cost for educating a child in 2010.Yes, she needs to get the maximum punishment according to the Law. Its like she broke into the school and stole $15,686 from them. That is Grand Theft, a felony, and it is punishable by up to 20 years. Our society cannot and should not tolerate people who break the law for any reason. The fact that she is homeless and was trying to help her son have no bearing on the case. Obviously, the child is not to blame and he should be placed in an appropriate foster home.
On the bright side, shell get a place to stay, warm food and all the tv she wants for 15 years. On your dollar.
It seems the system is set up to punish the have nots to protect the haves.
As, arguably, almost all social systems inevitably get co-opted to do.
As, arguably, almost all social systems inevitably get co-opted to do.
If we can not learn from history, you think we could learn from current events. Ah well. I hope the aristocracy can afford good security.
I don't think the issue is so clear cut on either side.
Yes, she did commit fraud, she knowingly put down a false address. She didn't just take the kid to the school and ask, "Is it ok if he goes here." and only later they learned she didn't live in the neighborhood. She actively choose to falsify papers with information she knew was wrong. And the money spent on her child could have gone to helping other children in the district.
Would we be ok with the district letting go a part-time special needs instructor to cover the cost of educating a child that should have been attending another school? If as was stated above the other district is so bad, should every child in that one be set to this one and make the residents of this district pay for it?
Now having said that, I agree with many of the people in the article, that this probably never should have gone to the police. 20 years in prison? I don't think that is rational. People get less than that for killing someone, and the prison system is already overburdened. Someone else has already lost their home due to being a party to this fraud. I think the school district should seeking restitution of some sort, maybe assign the mother community service to be performed for the school district.
I don't believe that people should feel free to ignore the wishes of local districts and use fraud to slip their children in, but I don't think taking a Stalinist approach is appropriate either. School districts are one of the selling points for properties and so communities spend money on good districts to entice people to move their (thus increasing the community's taxes). Reaping the reward for those efforts illegally should not be ignored, but it should not be insanely punished either.
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Thank you for clarifying. In your original statement I couldn't tell if you were talking about the events that took place or my opinions. But hey, no biggie.
This is pretty much what I was thinking. Though (admittedly not knowing the laws for something like this,) I wonder since she was homeless wouldn't she technically be lying about her address to any school she took him to?
I don't think the issue is so clear cut on either side.
Yes, she did commit fraud, she knowingly put down a false address. She didn't just take the kid to the school and ask, "Is it ok if he goes here." and only later they learned she didn't live in the neighborhood. She actively choose to falsify papers with information she knew was wrong. And the money spent on her child could have gone to helping other children in the district.
Would we be ok with the district letting go a part-time special needs instructor to cover the cost of educating a child that should have been attending another school? If as was stated above the other district is so bad, should every child in that one be set to this one and make the residents of this district pay for it?
Now having said that, I agree with many of the people in the article, that this probably never should have gone to the police. 20 years in prison? I don't think that is rational. People get less than that for killing someone, and the prison system is already overburdened. Someone else has already lost their home due to being a party to this fraud. I think the school district should seeking restitution of some sort, maybe assign the mother community service to be performed for the school district.
I don't believe that people should feel free to ignore the wishes of local districts and use fraud to slip their children in, but I don't think taking a Stalinist approach is appropriate either. School districts are one of the selling points for properties and so communities spend money on good districts to entice people to move their (thus increasing the community's taxes). Reaping the reward for those efforts illegally should not be ignored, but it should not be insanely punished either.
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As, arguably, almost all social systems inevitably get co-opted to do.If we can not learn from history, you think we could learn from current events. Ah well. I hope the aristocracy can afford good security.
Ho there,
Speaking on behalf of the current aristocracy in New England. Not to worry young man I have quite a bit of footmen and the like to keep away the riff raff. I would be more worried about yourself being a young poodle in the world I imagine you could get yourself into all sorts of trouble. Having been born to rule, a god given right you undknow. I am certain we will be just fine the peasants around here of course love us.
I am not sure about this other conversation about some woman I am certian she can just get a good barrister to help her out though. I mean doesn't everyone have them? Well glad we could sort this little issue out.
Signed
Count Iam Outtatouche
This is pretty much what I was thinking. Though (admittedly not knowing the laws for something like this,) I wonder since she was homeless wouldn't she technically be lying about her address to any school she took him to?
I believe she was staying at a homeless shelter. She could give that address for the local school district. I'm sure that the homeless shelter could help her in finding a local school for her child to attend. I don't think the problem was that she couldn't find a school for her child to attend, but the local school was of low quality.
I don't think the women should be faced with any sorta of civil or criminal actions. Laws are necessary...but laws without compassion become something darker. If she is...she should recieve the lightest sentence possible.
Also personaly it will get to a breaking point...what we need instead of...enforcing the laws is to deal with what will become the major problem. As to how we can do that...well that is completely up to debate...though I think one thing is we really need clear cut laws on dual residences.
But the laws do need to be enforced to a point. I mean there are alot of laws out there that are just not enforced anymore...mostly because they are out of date or are impossible to enforce.
I believe she was staying at a homeless shelter. She could give that address for the local school district. I'm sure that the homeless shelter could help her in finding a local school for her child to attend. I don't think the problem was that she couldn't find a school for her child to attend, but the local school was of low quality.
Okay, that makes sense (Also, for clarity's sake, that is pretty much what my poorly worded question was asking: Was the homeless shelter her actual legal address?)
RPG Superstar 2009 Top 32, 2010 Top 8
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"Mercy, detached from Justice, grows unmerciful." -- CS Lewis
I try to remember this quote when I audit at work.
I honestly don't know the procedure for homeless people and addresses, but if Presman's right, it is an issue.
Amusing disclaimer: I live in a complex that pays Columbus taxes (crappy schools) but goes to Westerville schools (much better schools).
If she did provide a false address (and was living/staying in another district) it is a criminal issue. Why doesn't school X bill school Y for damages? After all, they weren't providing the services they should have been?
Amusing disclaimer: I live in a complex that pays Columbus taxes (crappy schools) but goes to Westerville schools (much better schools).
Columbus is funny that way. I used to live in the area. My mailing address was in Powell, I attended Dublin schools, and we paid Columbus taxes.
"But when you give to the needy, do not let your left hand know what your right hand is doing." -- Matthew 6:3
Wow. Certain posts in this thread have really crushed my optimistic appraisal of the goodwill and generosity of my fellow gamers.
I removed a post and the replies to it (some of which would have been removed even if they were not quoting it.) Flag it and move on, please.
Also, I realize this is a quasi-political thread, but let's keep it civil, aye?
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I don't think the issue is so clear cut on either side.
Yes, she did commit fraud, she knowingly put down a false address.
I'm from the Communist States of Europe (or, at least that's what I'm told they're called, by your Tea Party), so this is an honest question;
What normally happens with homeless people's education? Are they expected to go to a specially designated Welfare school, or go without?If you don't have an address, then any address is a false address, no?
If you're going to write 'Address: a bus shelter', then surely, the bus shelter in the good school district is just as valid as the bus shelter in Crack Central.
Why not go the whole hog, put your address as an underpass in Bel Air, then you can go to school with Will Smith?
I think the school district should seeking restitution of some sort, maybe assign the mother community service to be performed for the school district.
Why not have her carry out duties in the school?
Dinner lady? Classroom Assistant?They get work to the alleged value of the education allegedly stolen, she gets work experience, becomes employable, gets out of poverty, can put an address on next year's school application?