Okay, I've found a point of disagreement:
Threefold Aspect is awesome, from an optimization perspective. Becoming old is +4 Int as a day long buff. Yeah, that's effectively just 16,000 GP saved on a headband of Int. It costs a spell slot, but I'd say that's definitely worth it. The Wis bonus and Dex penalty balance each other pretty well, and the Str penalty couldn't matter less.
A personal question for folk: what would your Witch spend that 16,000 gp on?
Here's more background, in case it helps.
Threefold Aspect is a 4th level spell, so a Witch gets it at level 7.
A Witch only needs an 18 Intelligence to get a free 4th level spell at level 7. Even in a non-optimized game a level 7 witch probably has at least 18 Intelligence, especially since the least expensive headbands of intelligence are only 4,000 gp.
A level 7 PC is expected to have about 23,500 gp of loot.
So I can agree that the ability to freely spend 68% of your net worth (16,000 gp out of 23,500 gp) is probably worth a 4th level spell slot, even at 7th level when you only have two of them.
But what to send that 16,000 gp on? What other items help a level 7 Witch besides those that grant more Intelligence? (A ring of invisibility still costs more than 16,000 gp. That would otherwise seem an obvious choice.)
It actually does have a value. It means that the cleric can actually mix up doing other things besides functioning as a healbot. There is a value in spreading healing functions beyond just one person or not compartmentalising roles totally. It gives you redundancy if a character is taken out.I am going to actually read the guide or some of it anyway.
I think the healing Hex is closer to green than blue, but that also depends on what other classes are in the party. I am assuming the witch is taking the sorcerer's or wizard's spot. With the cleric there this hex is not as valuable.
I am not saying it is not valuable, but whether how valuable depends on how neccesary it is, and channel is what keeps the cleric out of healbot mode. If the party is always in trouble being able to cast a cure spell once per day is not going to change that.
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But what to send that 16,000 gp on? What other items help a level 7 Witch besides those that grant more Intelligence? (A ring of invisibility still costs more than 16,000 gp. That would otherwise seem an obvious choice.)
Pearls of Power leap immediately to mind. You could have three 1st level Pearls, one 2nd level, and one 3rd level for the same price.
Protective items are also high on the list, since a Witch's AC is gonna suck and a Cloak of Resistance is always nice.
Metamgic Rods are also very available for that price, and you could even grab a Staff of Fire or Charming for only a bit over that.
There are also several good, available, rings from a ring of Feather Falling (if you lack the Flight Hex) to a Ring of Counterspells (put a Dispel Magic in it for emergencies).
And that's all just off the top of my head.
Also, to be fair, at 7th level, you'd probably only have a +2 Headband of Int, not a +4, so it's really only saving you 4,000 at that level, but is also upping your Spell Save DC by 1.
The "saving 16,000 GP" thing was talking more long-term.
I like witches and your guide seems well made.
However there are some issues, as other have said, the line between "optimisation" and "useful, especially for roleplay" are sometimes a bit blurry. Perhaps you should just specify at the beginning that it's not only about optimisation, because your Treantmonk-feel (the colour coding) suggests optimisation.
On another note for the spell rating:
remove blindness etc. in 3. lvl, they might be more worthwile on scrolls.
4. lvl threefold aspect, the bonus doesn't stack with your normal headband of intelligence (or am I mistaken?). At that point you should have one and thus the spell is more fluff.
bestow curse, a personal favorite of mine, it has a lot of roleplay opportunities. I would put it green, but that's just a personal opinion.
Unfortunatly there don't seem to be many blue spells later on, I hope you will include complete magic and I hope that changes things.
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4. lvl threefold aspect, the bonus doesn't stack with your normal headband of intelligence (or am I mistaken?). At that point you should have one and thus the spell is more fluff.
No the bonus doesn't stack with a headband. So why have a headband?
The spell lasts 24 hours, so you can use it all day every day. Which means you never need to get a +4 headband in the first place. Hence my comment on saving 16,000 GP (the cost of a +4 Headband).
The Agony Hex can be Green if the Witch really pimps the intelligence modifier and takes ability focus, but other than that the saves every round bring the value down especially since higher level monsters start to get really high save modifiers especially against fort and will based affects.
A few people have commented now on increasing the rating of the agony hex so I have now increased it to 3 stars (green).
As for the spells I don't give cure light wounds a blue or 4 stars. I give it a green and only because low levels characters die if the wind blows too hard.
For this very reason I give it 4 stars because at low levels, a CLW can mean the difference between life and death for your party members.
As someone else already mentioned fluff does not get stars. All stars should be based on whether or not the ability help the party or at least the witch.
Ok. I will review all the spells when I get a chance and adjust the few that need changing to be based around optimisation alone.
Major hex, agony - is really the same beast. Except with an extra 30' of range, affects anything, and targets a fort save. Which makes it a prime choice as your first major hex. being Nauseated means target can't take actions other than single moves, which is to say, you lose...
Agony has now been upgraded one notch
PS you have also massively underrated suffocation. Think of it as I reduce you to zero HP if you fail a save. Make 3 consecutive saves, and even if you make all your saves, your still subject to a slow spell for 3 rounds...Yes, a save or lose spell that makes you save 3 times, and is a strong inconvenience even if you make all the saves.
Suffocation is an ok spell but against a fortitude save plus spell resistance plus it taking 3 rounds, I just think there are better options for a 5th level spell slot.
Any plan on doing base familiars and rating them?
Not at this stage. I've given a few thoughts on familiars in the guide but if anyone wants to expand on this with more detailed information on each familiar, I'd be happy to copy and paste into the guide with appropriate acknowledgement ofcourse.
Many issues have already been adressed by the others, but one thing is missing: I'm not sure I agree with your rating for the Fortune Hex.
Don't get me wrong, it's an great hex, but I personally would rate it lower than misfortune. 3 stars seems appropriate.In my mind it might be 3 stars, just by how averages work.
Definitely 4 stars in the special situation if the Witch or someone else in the party summons monsters. Then you have plenty of allies to use it on each day.
Probably 2 stars otherwise, because of the restrictions Blave mentions.
But Blave's point stands. It isn't really 3 stars for any Witch--it's probably worse, but situationally better.
Ok, it seems that more than one person disagrees with my rating for fortune so I will go with the majority and reduce it back to 3 stars (green).
Just real quick: If I took ability focus I'd have to choose a specific hex right?
Re-evaluating your take on the Hexes I think you have underrated a few of them.
Cauldron ** This choice is ok if you want to spend your downtime creating potions for the party. Remember to pick up Craft(Alchemy) as well.
You do realize this is Scribe Scroll for witches right? ANY and EVERY potion or alchemical item available in the game the witch can brew at first level and have sitting in a bag waiting for when it's needed. Admittedly it's a little more expensive and a bit less flexible then Scribe scroll but far friendly for party support and amazing action economy. (quaff a potion & cast a spell per round, and everyone else in the party can do it too)
Take the hedge wizard trait and look, you have a profit machine on top of it too.
Unlike Scribe Scroll, Brew Potion will only let you create a spell 3rd level or lower. Because of this I find it hard to give a higher rating.
Coven * This is not a great choice as the opportunity for you to use this will rarely come up if ever. Of course, if you have other witches in your party then this choice becomes a reasonable choice. While this may not be very useful for PC Witches, it can be very handy for NPC witches.
This is what Leadership is for, add this feat and this becomes nearly game breakingly good.
animate dead, baleful polymorph, blight, bestow curse, clairaudience, clairvoyance,charm monster, commune, control weather, dream, forcecage, mind blank, mirage arcana, reincarnate, speak with dead, veil, visionAll pretty much at will with DC's in the mid 20's and up with and also add a +2 to caster level on any spell or hex you ever decide to cast.
I've always considered this as the most powerful Hex out there if you can handle waiting till 6th level to get it.
I will add your comments to the Coven feat but keep the rating.
Blight * Not terribly useful except for a games master who wanted to use an NPC witch with this ability for a background story / adventure plot.
Remember it's Con bleed effect requiring a will save to remove.
On average it's initial damage is the enemies HD in hp damage, and a -1 to their fort save. It's an auto-kill for any plant monster.
It's really a perfect assassins' power and much...
Blight is powerful in its effect but gets a low rating for being too narrow in what it can be used on.
Just real quick: If I took ability focus I'd have to choose a specific hex right?
That is correct.
Nicely done, and very helpfull while creating the witch I will be playing in our upcomming Carrion Crown adventure.
Any plans to look at the "Witches Brew" feats, and the Hexes & feats from "Advanced Options" ???
First great job on the guide, I will likely be making a witch because of this guide. I am still hesitant about how to keep the familiar alive but this guide did a super job. Of course I hope and expect an update it no later than may 20.
Great job.
Now to give one opinion the Healing Hex. Absolutley horrid, rate one star. Mathei pointed out some reasons, let me address more first it doesn't keep raisng in power, it's not a preq, for Major Healing. Both Healing hexes are bad even if you put them together, I would if I dm'd they are still under powered.
A wand of Cure light is much better.
Waxen Image would be good, except they get a save at first and a new one every time you try to use it. If it was a save at first and they it's on, it would be acceptable. As it is, you spend a full round and then a standard action to make them take a standard action, which they get two chances to resist. That sucks.
So starting really looking over the patron list. Superb job, when looking over the list I thought it would be nice to break the spells into 3 groups 1-6 7-12 13-18 spell level selections. Due to AP's PFS being capped at level 12, looking over the patron's I really think both you and Mathwei did a good job.
So I think Shadow should be green, the first 3 spells are not special or very usefull. Seems darkness could be more of a hindrance due to vision. Later, mosters can over come this more easily. The 8+ spells are great.
Elements... I think should be upgraded to green. Just due to the versatility of the spells. First 6 spells include. 2 Touch attacks 3 Aoe's, 2 CC spells wall of ice and flaming sphere. It's a pretty decent spell list, chance to get the raven to do some touch's.
How about Craft Wondrous Item?
A CL 1 friendship bracelet of Ill Omen has a retail cost of:
1 {spell level} * 1 {CL} * 1,800 {command word} = 1,800 gp
Half that is only 900 gp, for creating it yourself. Now your familiar, which is intelligent and can use Wondrous Items, has a really useful thing to do in combat each turn, from a reasonably safe distance.
Enlarge Person is a similarly inexpensive, ranged, able-to-be-delegated first level spell with no issues about a saving throw that will make the item grow obsolete.
For the Shadow Patron, Silent Image makes a third great first level spells for a wondrous items for the familiar to use.
(At higher level, adding Reach Spell metamagic costs six times as much but Medium range instead of close range keeps the familiar that much safer.)
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So starting really looking over the patron list. Superb job, when looking over the list I thought it would be nice to break the spells into 3 groups 1-6 7-12 13-18 spell level selections. Due to AP's PFS being capped at level 12, looking over the patron's I really think both you and Mathwei did a good job.
So I think Shadow should be green, the first 3 spells are not special or very usefull. Seems darkness could be more of a hindrance due to vision. Later, mosters can over come this more easily. The 8+ spells are great.
Elements... I think should be upgraded to green. Just due to the versatility of the spells. First 6 spells include. 2 Touch attacks 3 Aoe's, 2 CC spells wall of ice and flaming sphere. It's a pretty decent spell list, chance to get the raven to do some touch's.
Silent Image is amazingly useful, it's a self contained hyper realistic mobile hologram of anything you want covering 4000 cubic feet. How isn't this scary useful?
Darkness/Deeper Darkness is great, 20-50% concealment that can be passed around for minutes at a time and turned on off as a free action is not useful?
Remember these are low level spells targeting the weakest save the average monster you'll be encountering will have. Look at them as I described them in the Patron review, they are used to confuse and befuddle the enemy allowing you to disable them with minimum risk to yourself. If they can't see you, find you or hit you then they can't stop you.
Elements CAN be a decent patron but only for a Witch who dedicates themselves to it. It's flagged red since only 1 of the three roles would ever get anything out of it. Going into the discussion on how blasters are sub-optimal strikers has been argued to death and not worth starting again here.
This is the question I ask myself when looking at any spell/hex or feat option for my witch.
"How will this let me remove my target as a threat the fastest?"
Using blast spells to whittle away his hit points is NEVER gonna be the fastest way and goes against the basic function of the class.
Waxen Image would be good, except they get a save at first and a new one every time you try to use it. If it was a save at first and they it's on, it would be acceptable. As it is, you spend a full round and then a standard action to make them take a standard action, which they get two chances to resist. That sucks.
That would be brokenly over powered. As it is it's still dangerously powerful.
Look at it this way, let's take a few CR 10 opponents and see how effective it would be against them.Fire Giant +9 will
Bebilith +7
Rakshasha +8
At 10th level a perfectly average, non-optimized Witch should have DC's for their Hexes of about 23 (10 + 1/2 lvl + int mod (18base int +2 from level bonus + 4 from Three-fold aspect = +7 int mod)
That means, best case your opponent has a 30% chance of resisting your control BEFORE dealing with the -4 penalty from the evil eye you gave them and the roll twice penalty from your misfortune or a quickened Ill Omen. Optimized you'll be slinging around DC's approaching 30 and requiring them to roll 2 or 3 nat 20's to resist.
Is this a trick you're gonna use on every opponent? No, none of your hexes are designed to one trick ponies, this is just one of the more potent save or suck spells in the arsenal.
The biggest hurdle I've run into with getting the hang of Witches is learning to ignore hit points. The class as built is designed around status effects and save or lose. These all require 2+ rounds to set up
but when it works (and if you follow through it nearly always will) ends a fight as soon as your turn comes around.
A witch in a fight is not there to take out mooks, in a standard encounter a witch is going to hold back and shut down anyone who might be able to put a hurt on the party.
You know you've done your job right when everyone else says "That guy was too easy."
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I see the comments regarding Threefold Aspect, and I'm a little confused. People are equating it with the headband that increases Int, but that ability becomes Permanent after the first 24 hours. Threefold Aspect would need to last more than 24 hours to give the same benefit. There are certainly ways to make this possible, but it should be mentioned that the spell won't give you bonus spell slots by default.
By the time you need bonus 6th or 7th level spell slots (which is what it provides) you're grabbing a +6 Headband anyway.
And you can grab a Pearl of Power or two if you really need the 2nd or 3rd level slots. If ou have a base Int of 22 it might be worth going with the Headband for the bonus 4th level slot, though...
[snark]
I guess my Witch must be totally useless because she has the Cauldron and Healing hexes and has the Elemental Patron.I suppose I'll need to read the guide to make her look like every other witch will if everyone follows it's reccomendations.
[/snark]
Any spell on elements list from 1-12 is better than all the shadow spells from 1-12.
Who ever thought these shadow spells were good never read the spellcraft skill, or their actuall spell stats.
Sure silent image is good at first level, against perhaps goblins, probably not as good against kobolds for the obvious reasons.
Shadow spells good? only if you never plan on fighting an inquisitor cleric wizard sorceror bard oracle witch ranger paladin.
Okay shadow spells are good against rogues, but not mine. and barbarions chavliers and fighters.
Darkness and deaper darkness has a range of touch. Your not a cleric with the darkness domain the one that lets you see in the magical darkness.
Spellcraft dc 16 immediate action destroys silent image, DC 19-23 Destroys the shadow spells. Congrats you summoned a creature with 8 hitpoints with that level 4 spell, it did 1 damage, good news casting time was one round. That fireball rolled all 6's did 12 points of damage.
Element witch kills shadow witch every time. Wall of Ice around you. Flame Strike you then Freezing Sphere you. Just to see you stuck in Ice, require a dc 25 escape artist check.
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Any spell on elements list from 1-12 is better than all the shadow spells from 1-12.
Who ever thought these shadow spells were good never read the spellcraft skill, or their actuall spell stats.
Sure silent image is good at first level, against perhaps goblins, probably not as good against kobolds for the obvious reasons.
Shadow spells good? only if you never plan on fighting an inquisitor cleric wizard sorceror bard oracle witch ranger paladin.
Okay shadow spells are good against rogues, but not mine. and barbarions chavliers and fighters.
Darkness and deaper darkness has a range of touch. Your not a cleric with the darkness domain the one that lets you see in the magical darkness.
Spellcraft dc 16 immediate action destroys silent image, DC 19-23 Destroys the shadow spells. Congrats you summoned a creature with 8 hitpoints with that level 4 spell, it did 1 damage, good news casting time was one round. That fireball rolled all 6's did 12 points of damage.
Element witch kills shadow witch every time. Wall of Ice around you. Flame Strike you then Freezing Sphere you. Just to see you stuck in Ice, require a dc 25 escape artist check.
Not wanting this to turn into a sniping contest I'll just say this, and it's the exact same thing I'd say to anyone who states evocation is a good specialty.
Any hit points you have over 0 you function at full power, so unless you can kill in one spell you can't stop anyone from doing anything.A save or suck/fail/die specialist only ever needs 1 round to win.
Oh and Spellcraft is great for defeating shadow spells, if you see them being cast, you did read that part right? With the standard deeper darkness functioning you won't see anything being cast.
Oh and just because snark begs to be answered with snark...
You cast hemisphere of ice I cast Black Tentacles and a quickened Ill Omen, you fight off the grapple I cast Moonstruck you try to do anything I laugh and watch you attack the tentacles until you die.
Never give a save or suck specialist 3 rounds to do what they want, that's just asking to die.
So supposing you have planned to cast deeper darkness so you can cast shadow summoning, you realize all the inherent errors in this strategy. A 3rd level spell followed by a 4th level spell just to cast a 3rd level spell. Yes, this argument it redundant. Or even the fact Shadow EVOCATION is on the list.
Witch's suffer from low spells known, I agree about hit points, casting a spell to cast another spell that functions at lower levels is bad spell economy.
Casting darkness deeper darkness, these are great if you are a darkstalker or dark creeper, hell most underdark monsters and creatures. Allot of people would rather have daylight.
Some creatures like Dark Stalkers can see in magical darkness.
Black Tentacles and such good spells, but they are not on the patron spell list so why bring these spells up.
Shadow Patron is not good for any optimization build. Unless you are playing a race like a Darkstalker.
About the HP yeah it is great a target can do the same thing if hp=x and x>0 but when x=/- 0 you win. Most time a single blast spells are better than all shadow spells. A first round fireball, is great when you can target ALLOT of enemies.
You realize that shadow spells are not save and suck.
Ice Wall alone would work better than most of the Shadow spells, action economy should be considered as well.
Spellcraft dc 16 immediate action destroys silent image, DC 19-23 Destroys the shadow spells.
Could you explain this? Knowing that an illusion spell is being cast via spellcraft does not allow you to disbelief it automatically. While you could argue that someone recognizing a silent image as such nigh be able to ignore it, the shadow spells are unaffected by this. Otherwise one could also argue that spellcraft protects from fear spells (as you'd know the fear is not real).
I find nothing on the rules to support your post. If anything, a successful spellcraft check might allow an immediate will save to disbelieve but even that is questionable. Care to explain?
For instance, a character realizes the spell you cast is silent image. I would think that would be enough just for that on character to disbelieve it. Follow by a warning to what ever friends he has with him I think that is +4, currently on my phone so can't check. Let's also consider a lesser skill check, knowledge animal or whatever. Target dc hard to pin point but easy to, circumvent that silent image.
So one great thing about silent image is the versality of it. But if someone notices the spell being cast. Recognizes it as silent image, then a pit opens up on the floor as a dm I would allow it auto pass. For his teammates a warning a chance to disbelieve with a +4. Then a chance to totally ignore it once someone walks over with no effects. This is very similiar to watching a person walk through an illusionary wall.
But illusions are a mechanically akward, relies on roleplaying and for the most part a dm is usually a judge of what an npc can or can't do.
So silent image could be good could be bad. Is it one of your select three spells at level 2?
As far as shadow spells, if I gm'd and a npc noticed a person cast shadow conjuration, skill check pass, I would rule almost the exact same. Roleplay a caster noticing the shadow conjuration spell being cast then out pops a creature. He knew the spell, that would auto pass if I gm'd. Sure that creature is infact 20% health and isn't dismissed, but he can warn his friends or deal with it himself. At 20% health it would allot easier to dismiss.
If. I gm'd and someone used a knowledge check, say an inquistor. I may raise the dc but if he beat the save with his skill check I would definatley allow him to notice that something is up with a silent image creature or a shadow summons. These skills allow a person a bit more ability to roleplay charcter knowledge.
Ultimately with years of playing and gming, an illusion is still an illusion. A shadow spell creates a good illusion copy of a spell, although weaker. A real version of the spell is allot better than a shadow spell. A shadow spell has more versatility.
Note, if you are into 3.5 material, there was a great PrC class in the scarred land books for a shadow caster that greatly improved shadow castings. Slowly bringing up the shadow part of the spell I believe up to 70%.
Well, I can see why you play it that way, but there's still no RAW evidence that skill checks counter illusions. Knowing that something can't harm you and actually not fearing it as if it was a real threat are two totally different things.
To give an non-magic example: I'm afraid of heights. KNOWING that a ladder or structure carries my weight without any danger of falling for me is one thing - determined by my Knowledge (Engeneering) skill so to speak. Actually going up a ladder or walking across a nearrow bridge is a completely different story. Beating one's fear would require a successful Will save.
So yeah, knowing the bottomless pit in the ground is just an illusion doesn't mean everybody has the guts to just walk over it. After all, your character doesn't KNOW for sure that he didn't mess up his spellcraft check. Every mage has his own individual way to cast a spell, so even if you identified it as a silent image, there's always the slim chance that it might be a complete different spell - like Summon Pit.
Personally, I'll keep it at an automatic will save on a successful spellcraft check. Nothing more and nothing less.
@Red-Assasin
It seems that you are using some house rules and i don't think that you should expect or think that anyone else is also using them.
You allow characters to substitute their save check with a spellcraft check (which i can understand, it's still a house rule).
You also allow characters to dibelief an illusion or shadow spell with knowledge checks, albeit at a higher DC (which is also a house rule).
The only ruling of yours that i think is supported by the rules is the bonus, to the save check, a character would get if someone else tells him that something is an illusion (but i think that the +4 is a bit much).
So, although in your game the shadow spells and the illusion spells might not be so good, in many other poeple's games those spells are better.
(...) but i think that the +4 is a bit much. (...)
Core Rules p.211.
Core Rules p.211.(...) but i think that the +4 is a bit much. (...)
Quoting the rule along with the source is more useful. Many of us use the online rules.
There you go:
Saving Throws and Illusions (Disbelief)
Creatures encountering an illusion usually do not receive saving throws to recognize it as illusory until they study it carefully or interact with it in some fashion.
A successful saving throw against an illusion reveals it to be false, but a figment or phantasm remains as a translucent outline.
A failed saving throw indicates that a character fails to notice something is amiss. A character faced with proof that an illusion isn't real needs no saving throw. If any viewer successfully disbelieves an illusion and communicates this fact to others, each such viewer gains a saving throw with a +4 bonus.
Leo the my idea behind the knowledge check target at spell save for summons is really sided for the caster, much harder to beat than 10(5-15)+cr with a modifier of additional +5's. I recently looked this up on the SRD and was under the impression that the added special feature was at an additional +2, not +5.
Blave, knowing the spell being cast complete's the burden of proof.
I don't play with house rules, I mainly play society. I do try to speak about actual RAW. Knowledge checks are great especially if your character has them. Leo talking about homeruling like that is a bit derrogatory.
Sorry about not posting the actual rules earlier, I was on my phone. So thanks Nixda.
Also sorry if I don't cleary state my points. I have a problem being clear. And you will not see qoutes upon qoutes from me when you scroll up.
But to the long point why would a witch choose shadow over elements, I am not saying that elements should be blue; just not red. Since this a guide post and people have introduced good points and spells.
Nicely done, and very helpfull while creating the witch I will be playing in our upcomming Carrion Crown adventure.
Any plans to look at the "Witches Brew" feats, and the Hexes & feats from "Advanced Options" ???
Excuse my ignorance, but where do I find these "advanced options" you are talking about?
Now to give one opinion the Healing Hex. Absolutley horrid, rate one star. Mathei pointed out some reasons, let me address more first it doesn't keep raisng in power, it's not a preq, for Major Healing. Both Healing hexes are bad even if you put them together, I would if I dm'd they are still under powered.
A wand of Cure light is much better.
I still think the Healing Hex is a fantastic option especially if you don't have access to a wand or another healer. Witches make great secondary healers putting them (in my mind) in the same bracket as bards for versatility and support.
Nonetheless, given that several people think I am over-rating the hex, I will bow to community pressure and drop it one notch to a good rating (3 stars).
PS you have also massively underrated suffocation. Think of it as I reduce you to zero HP if you fail a save. Make 3 consecutive saves, and even if you make all your saves, your still subject to a slow spell for 3 rounds...Yes, a save or lose spell that makes you save 3 times, and is a strong inconvenience even if you make all the saves.Suffocation is an ok spell but against a fortitude save plus spell resistance plus it taking 3 rounds, I just think there are better options for a 5th level spell slot.Your missing the point. It doesn't take 3 rounds. It takes 1 (and tries 3 times). Your first missed save reduces the target to zero HP; in other words any damage takes the target down... Your familiar can kill it, whatever.
Ok. I re-read the spell and I see what you're getting at. I have upgraded the spell from ok to good (2 to 3 stars).
[snark]
I guess my Witch must be totally useless because she has the Cauldron and Healing hexes and has the Elemental Patron.I suppose I'll need to read the guide to make her look like every other witch will if everyone follows it's reccomendations.
[/snark]
Lol. Nobody is being forced to follow the guide. It is excacty that, just a guide. If you've found a more unorthodox approach in creating your witch that benefits your party, then more power to you.
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Leo the my idea behind the knowledge check target at spell save for summons is really sided for the caster, much harder to beat than 10(5-15)+cr with a modifier of additional +5's. I recently looked this up on the SRD and was under the impression that the added special feature was at an additional +2, not +5.
Blave, knowing the spell being cast complete's the burden of proof.
I don't play with house rules, I mainly play society. I do try to speak about actual RAW. Knowledge checks are great especially if your character has them. Leo talking about homeruling like that is a bit derrogatory.
Sorry about not posting the actual rules earlier, I was on my phone. So thanks Nixda.
Also sorry if I don't cleary state my points. I have a problem being clear. And you will not see qoutes upon qoutes from me when you scroll up.
But to the long point why would a witch choose shadow over elements, I am not saying that elements should be blue; just not red. Since this a guide post and people have introduced good points and spells.
Well first, knowing A spell is being cast doesn't complete the burden of proof. All it proves is that he's casting a spell, a successful spellcraft check will let you know that it's a shadow spell and from there you can work on disbelieving it.
The reason you choose Shadow of Elements is:A). Direct damage spells suck, they do nothing but take imaginary numbers off the table that mean nothing unless you take ALL of them away.
b). Shadow spells can do everything Elements spell can but Elements can only do a fraction of what Shadow can.
I'll say it again Witches are all about Disabling your opponent through status effects & save or suck spells.
Anything else go play a damn wizard and blast to your hearts content.
edit:It seems the file can now be downloaded by anyone. :)
Just click the link in the opening post.
@Red-Assassin
I am sorry if i offended you in any way. I didn't mean to.
Core Rules p.211.(...) but i think that the +4 is a bit much. (...)
Seems my impression was wrong.
Blave, knowing the spell being cast complete's the burden of proof.
That's the very point I still doubt. Seeing a shadow spell being cast doesn't mean you only suffer 20% of the effect. It only means, you know that someone with enough willpower suffers only 20% of the effect. Actually HAVING this willpower is another story.
Using skill checks to negate about 60% of a complete spell school seems questionable. Especially considering that I have never before heard someone saying it works that way. I'll open a topic on this in the rules question forum.
Note that I'm not saying you are wrong. It's just something that needs to be made clear.
I'm just going to throw out that knowing it's an illusion and disbelieving it are two entirely different things. The true test of an illusionist after all is making the cynic crap his pants.
Anything else go play a damn wizard and blast to your hearts content.
Good wizards don't focus on blasting either.
My opinion if you know the spell being cast it should complete the burden of proof.
If you know something is +, you would not think it is -.
Knowledge Arcana is diffent from Spellcraft.
Spellcraft heading,
You are skilled at the art of casting spells, identifying magic items, crafting magic items, and identifying spells as they are being cast.
Arcana doesn't have a heading since it is a Knowledge skill. Here are some DC's
Identify auras while using detect magic Arcana 15 + spell level
Identify a spell effect that is in place Arcana 20 + spell level
Identify materials manufactured by magic Arcana 20 + spell level
Identify a spell that just targeted you Arcana 25 + spell level
Identify the spells cast using a specific material component Arcana 20
I am not sure what a "good wizard" is, or where a focus comes into play, unless your talking about patron spells.
In a society mod I recently played in, 6 players level 6-7, We fought a sorc. Don't want to spoil anything. So first round Tentacles, second round AoE killing 3 players dropping a 4th. So at that time a caster does well doing hp damaging spells. If the GM was ruthless he would of done AoEx2 killing possibly 2 more.
After the time expired I talked with the gm, and he spoke about tactics that involed using skill checks. After a couple days thinking about that encounter, I came to appreciate that GM even more.
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My opinion if you know the spell being cast it should complete the burden of proof.
If you know something is +, you would not think it is -.
Knowledge Arcana is diffent from Spellcraft.
Spellcraft heading,
You are skilled at the art of casting spells, identifying magic items, crafting magic items, and identifying spells as they are being cast.Arcana doesn't have a heading since it is a Knowledge skill. Here are some DC's
Identify auras while using detect magic Arcana 15 + spell level
Identify a spell effect that is in place Arcana 20 + spell level
Identify materials manufactured by magic Arcana 20 + spell level
Identify a spell that just targeted you Arcana 25 + spell level
Identify the spells cast using a specific material component Arcana 20I am not sure what a "good wizard" is, or where a focus comes into play, unless your talking about patron spells.
In a society mod I recently played in, 6 players level 6-7, We fought a sorc. Don't want to spoil anything. So first round Tentacles, second round AoE killing 3 players dropping a 4th. So at that time a caster does well doing hp damaging spells. If the GM was ruthless he would of done AoEx2 killing possibly 2 more.
After the time expired I talked with the gm, and he spoke about tactics that involed using skill checks. After a couple days thinking about that encounter, I came to appreciate that GM even more.
Knowing something is one thing but believing it so much you ignore it as a threat is far far different.
Example, I know roller coasters are safe and that nothing is going to happen if I get on one. I have still panicked like a little girl at a hentai festival the first time I got on several of em.The spellcraft check lets you know the upcoming spell is an illusion the benefit of which is you NOW get to make a will save to disbelieve.
Handling an illusion spell usually works this way:
a). Caster cunningly creates an illusion of X (let's say a tiger) in a manner that seems believable (walks out from behind a tree) and sends it to do an action (charge the party).
b). Party responds to the charging tiger (run away, defend themselves, cast a spell at it, etc) and this spends their action this round.
c). After trying to do whatever to the tiger they have fulfilled the requirement of interacting with it and can now finally get the option of [b]trying[\b] to disbelieve at a normal will save.
d). Resolve will save and maul the ones who failed, those who succeed see through the illusion and can ignore it OR realize it's a shadow spell and that it CAN STILL AFFECT THEM even though they made the save.
(This is why shadow is a top tier patron, even on a successful save the opponent still has to worry about it. Every other option a witch has can be completely nullified by a successful save, this one cannot)
Succeeding on a spellcraft check during step (a) allows the caster to then immediately go to step (c) and make their will save against the illusion with whatever bonus they have earned (usually a +4).
The spellcraft check allows you to skip however much time it takes to go from step (a) to step (c) and save all the actions you would have spent in between. Nothing in the rules allows you to use a simple skill check in place of a saving throw.
On a side note the sign of a good illusionist is determined by how long they can keep a target in between step (a) and step (c).
The longer you can keep them from being eligible from earning that save the more actions you deny them from taking, the fewer actions they get the more actions you get to take to defeat them.
This is the reason I rank Shadow as high as I do. It's all about denying your opponent the surety that they know whats going on, this restricts their options and costs them actions. And NOTHING is as easy to defeat as an opponent who just stands there doing nothing.
Oh and when we refer to Good Wizard and Focus where talking about using the most effective AND least wasteful methods we have to defeat a challenge and who we build or characters and spell selections to do that.
A wizard can memorize 5 fireball spells and cast every one of them to defeat the 125 HP monster coming at him. The GOOD wizard would cast either Black Tentacles or Hold Monster and do the same thing a lot faster with less resources spent so he can be useful in the next fight too.
As far as summoning spells go Summon Nature IV(on witches spell list) would be better than Shadow Conjuration(4th). Now there are pros and cons for each.
The Pros for Shadow Con Casting time one action.
The Cons you are immicating a lower level spell. Abilities of the creature summoned allow a s/r check. Creature can be disbelieved, resulting in 20% real.
Pros for summon monster, the monster is in fact real.
The con's, full round casting action, you do have to communicate it to attack a specific different target, this is something most people forget when they cast the spells.
Premise of your spellcraft check in my opinion is wrong, you dont know it's an illusion. You know for a certainty the spell cast. This is where it comes to a GM. If I GM'd if a character passed the check he would get pass the burden of proof, as an free action on his turn he could communicate this with others.
I think your example is a perfect example of someone with a knowledge skill.
I was thinking Focus, would be some feat focus.
Black tentacles is almost to powerfull, since I have died in one now, I miss that fact they can no longer be attacked. Or the fact that Burst Bonds is ineffective against them.
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Well you do seem to be pretty solidly focused strictly how much Hit Point damage a spell does instead of how effective the spell is in combat. Since you undervalue the flexibility of having spells that can do anything you want whenever you want I'm just going to let this conversation go and move back to the point of how to build a truly effective witch.
Familiars: Great tools or an albatross around a witches neck?
I have now added 7th level spells. Please keep in mind that I am not covering arcane spells already covered by Treantmonk in his excellent guide for wizards.