1st level Paladin is a straight forward build.
Get the most armor she can afford, a heavy shield, a longsword and a back up blunt weapon (for skeletons and such). I would suggest a morningstar (does pierce and blunt) but flails are cool.
Feat wise? at level 1, I guess I would take power attack.
later on I'd take the turn undead feat, but pally 1 can't channel yet.
If you go human you get a second feat... just look through the book to see what you like, cleave might be good.
I don't see a major bonus to a half elf paladin, really.
Hello everybody,
we are starting the Carrion Crown Paths and are switching from 4e.
We will have 2 new players in the group and one of them is my wife.She would like to play a Paladin and I was wondering if you could suggest an easy to play build with Sword and Shield?
Half Elf or Human.
From an optimization view the popular consensus is to go TWF with sword and board or don't do it.
Are you rolling for stats or will you be using point buy. What race is she using?
She will take a human. TWF Sword and Board will give her attacks with the shield?
I would prefer the built that is easy and fun to play.
None of them are any harder to play. As for more fun I think the TWF will be more fun. It will take longer to get off the ground, but it provides a better benefit in the long run.
She will need a couple of decent stats though which is why the method of getting ability points is important.
Here is a link to a guide-->click me
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She will take a human. TWF Sword and Board will give her attacks with the shield?
I would prefer the built that is easy and fun to play.
You can use a shield in your off-hand to make shield bash attacks. A light spiked shield in your off-hand for a human deals 1d4 + (1/2)Str modifier damage without other modifiers. Important feats for the build include Two-Weapon Fighting, Improved Shield Bash, Double Slice, Shield Slam and Shield Master, in roughly that order (as in, take them in that order as you meet the prereqs - you can start with the first two at character creation). If you are using material from the Advanced Player's Guide, you can add Bashing Finish to the list.
If worrying about two-weapon fighting seems too tricky, you can do sword-and-board without TWF/bashing; it might not be "optimal," but it doesn't have to be unfun. For a non-bashing build, you focus on Power Attack and Shield Focus to begin with, then Lunge, Combat Reflexes and Stand Still as you gain levels. (If you are using material from the Advanced Player's Guide, you'll want Combat Patrol instead of Lunge.)
If you want to play up the "protector of the party" angle with the paladin, the APG feats Covering Shield and Saving Shield might be useful, as well as Bodyguard and In Harm's Way from the same source.
We will use the standart 20 point buy I think!
Or would you suggest something different for the Carrion Crown AP`?Thanks for the link!
I like 20 myself, and it will be needed if you go the TWF route.
so generally speaking the TWF will be focused on making more attacks?
Can she already in the early levels attack with both weapon and shield?Whereas the other built will be more focused on defense?
With the TWF Sword and Board you will be able to get defense and offense, but it will cost more feats. With the sword and board that does not TWF you lose offense and don't really gain any defense.
(1) Two Weapon Fighting, (3) Improved Shield Bash, (5) DoubleSlice are your starting feats.
I would start off with a light shield to lessen the penalties. It only cost you 1 to AC. Later if you think it is worth the feats you can build up to Shield Master, and switch to a heavy shield which I reccomend.
Shield Master won't be available until level 11 though.
At level 7 or 9 you can take shield slam to get it out of the way.
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so generally speaking the TWF will be focused on making more attacks?
Can she already in the early levels attack with both weapon and shield?Whereas the other built will be more focused on defense?
With the TWF Sword and Board you will be able to get defense and offense, but it will cost more feats. With the sword and board that does not TWF you lose offense and don't really gain any defense.
That's not quite true. I was suggesting a build that would add defensive bonuses to the entire party, which a TWF build wouldn't be able to accomplish.
To put it in 4E terms, go TWF if you are wanting to play a paladin with a stronger striker feel. If you want something that plays more like a controller/defender, skip TWF and go for Dodge/Mobility/Combat Reflexes/Combat Patrol instead. Either one is pretty solid with the resilience of a paladin, not to mention the damage output it will have against evil.
(1) Two Weapon Fighting, (3) Improved Shield Bash, (5) Double
Slice are your starting feats.
Playing a human, she'll start with Two Weapon Fighting & Improved Shield Bash from lvl 1.
I have to be honest. I'm not a fan of the TWF build. I really don't see the benefit of -2 to my main hand and off-hand attacks, plus you're locked into wielding a light shield, not a heavy. A paladin is feat starved to begin with and you need to be able to have the feats to pull this build off...feats like a fighter would have. The TWF build is NOT optimal for a paladin imo. Example:
Human paladin at 5th level has only 4 feats.
Human fighter at 5th level has 7 feats.
I'm not knocking the paladin, I love the class, but if you want to sword and board with TWF build, make a human fighter.
I am biased to the Defense Build! What would the starting feats be (human)?
I thought you were asking about defense for the pally, not the party.
If the party is what you want to defend then Shisumo's build is the way to go.
Combat Patrol (Combat)You range across the battlefield, dealing with threats wherever they arise.
Prerequisites: Combat reflexes, Mobility, base attack bonus +5.
Benefit: As a full-round action, you may set up a combat patrol, increasing your threatened area by 5 feet for every 5 points of your base attack bonus. Until the beginning of your next turn, you may make attacks of opportunity against any opponent in this threatened area that provokes attacks of opportunity. You may move as part of these attacks, provided your total movement before your next turn does not exceed your speed. Any movement you make provokes attacks of opportunity as normal.
However if you give up a full round to defend the party you don't get to attack unless someone provokes. At higher levels flyers and teleporting monsters just bypass you entirely. However from level 5 until about 11 you may be able to be decent at AoE's if anyone provokes.
PS:I am not saying that all high level monster fly or teleport, but it does become more common. You still can't stop ranged attacks.
I have to be honest. I'm not a fan of the TWF build. I really don't see the benefit of -2 to my main hand and off-hand attacks, plus you're locked into wielding a light shield, not a heavy. A paladin is feat starved to begin with and you need to be able to have the feats to pull this build off...feats like a fighter would have. The TWF build is NOT optimal for a paladin imo. Example:
Human paladin at 5th level has only 4 feats.
Human fighter at 5th level has 7 feats.I'm not knocking the paladin, I love the class, but if you want to sword and board with TWF build, make a human fighter.
It is feat intensive and it takes longer to mature than any build except for maybe archery, but when it is locked in the damage is really good. Smite applies to both the shield and the primary weapon, and if the paladin chooses the bond he can add enhancements as needed, which saves money.
I think the real question in such as situation is are you willing to be behind the curve for a while or do you want to be affective as quickly as possible.
Ok, so my wife decided to not be two weapon fightiing focused.
what would you suggest and what order of feats and stats as a regular nice female human paladin? Also Sword or Scimitar? Large stell shield? banded mail?
This is a TWF sword and shield paladin i am planning to use in an upcoming game.
Here:Feats:
1st Two weapon fighting
1st Improved shield bash
3rd Double Slice
5th Power Attack
7th Shield Slam
9th Improved Critical (Scimitar)
11th Shield Master
13th Bashing Finish
15th Critical Focus
17th staggering critical
19th blinding critical
For mercies you should really ask the DM what should be best but here some good options.
Mercies:
3rd Sickened
6th Staggered
9th Nauseated
12th Stunned
Also always carry a light shield so that you can cast spells and lay on hands your self.
Ok, so my wife decided to not be two weapon fightiing focused.
what would you suggest and what order of feats and stats as a regular nice female human paladin? Also Sword or Scimitar? Large stell shield? banded mail?
The Two handed weapon build does good damage, but loses out on AC.
Every build gives up something
Two handed weapon-good damage, loss of AC
Sword and Board without TWF-decent damage, gets AC, but considered by many the worst overall build.
Sword and Board with TWF-better damage than Sword and Board, and gets to keep the AC, but it takes longer to mature.
Archery-probably the most damage, but it is feat and attribute intensive just like TWF. It can also be shutdown by wind wall, but that will be rare.
TWF-Very Good damage, but low defense since you don't have a shield.
Charging build-You would be better off with a small race for this one, since a medium race would require a large mount, and those dungeons don't always accomodate your mount. The small creatures do less base damage, but the charging feats would make up for that. I don't know how optimal this is since I have never used one in a game, but the numbers look good according to math I have seen on the boards.
For Armor you might want Celestial Armor later on so you can fly, but at first level get scale male IIRC. As for sword it depends on if you are using one hand or two hands to wield it.
I'd go with a longsword and heavy steel shield, high strength (18 or 19 with human bonus) and decent charisma (14), and the leftover points where she feels like it. Put some skill points in Paladin class skills like diplomacy, knowledge religion and sense motive or others if she prefers (+ more skills if the paladin has a higher intelligence and/or puts her favored class bonus for skill points).
When there's less need to go on the defensive she can have the shield on her back and hold the sword two handed, which combined with power attack and smite evil is rather nice. All other times she can wear her shield for a better defense.
Would it make sense to also carry an actual 2 hand weapon on the back to switch from shield and sword to e.g. heavy flail?
If I have a shield I prefer weapons that can be held in both one and two hands (the difference in damage between the weapons isn't that big when you have a good strength, it's whether you hold them 1 or 2 handed).
I'd rather have a flail (for disarm/trip) or a morningstar (both piercing/bludgeoning).
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Which sword she decides to go with will depend on if she wants to crit more (the scimitar) or do more damage with slightly less frequent crits (the long sword). If she wants to be a stereotypical/slightly more historical pally, I'd go with the long sword over the scimitar. As for feats, weapon focus and power attack aren't bad for first level, especially since she'll want them eventually anyway.
The two handed back up weapon is definitely not a bad idea, and a heavy flail isn't a bad choice. Though I'd also recommend having a piercing weapon handy too, so you can over come any of the weapon damage type DRs you may run into.
OK!
So one more question on TWF with the Feat and using heavy spiked shield in one hand and a longsword in the other hand would mean
that on each attack (both in one round) she would always get -4 on each attack if she decides to use both attacks - sword and shield.if she stays standart and not TWF she could choose the Power Attack feat. This would mean a +2 bonus on all melee damage rolls.
What does the following mean? She puts the shield away, uses her longsword (one handed weapon used two handed), or switch to the 2 hand weapon she carries on the back. And what would the +2 damage then increase to?
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Power attack increases by one half if used with a two handed weapon (or a one handed weapon held with two hands), so the +2 would be +3. In addition if she has a strength of 18 which is +4, it will become +6 to damage with a two handed weapon.
Combined this will give +6 damage with the weapon in one hand or +9 if held in two hands.
At lvl 4 power attack will increase to +4 (one hand) or +6 (two hands).
Hows this....
What I do with my paladin is use the greatsword and make use of a wand of shield. 750 gp to buy for 50 uses with each use lasting 1 min. So you can maximize your damage output because Greatsword > 1h+shield bash and still get the +4 shield bonus from the shield spell and protection from magic missiles.
Now Use Magic devise isnt a paladin skill so you need to take the Dangerously Curious trait to have UMD as a class skill.
Feat Progression
1 Improved Init (because you need to get smite evil off quickly)
3 Power attack
5 Furious Focus (first power attack doesnt take penalty)
Bashing ability on shield can be helpful as well, but might not be any better than just taking another enhancement point once shield master kicks in.
IMO the shield is the main weapon and it should be large, the thing you hold in your other hand (if anything) just needs a high crit range and to be light, I like the kukri for this. A large bashing shield is 2d6 damage and will hold more enchantment power than your kukri because shields are so cheap to enchant. In addition to this you can enchant the spike on the shield once the shield itself becomes expensive around total +5 or +6. You lose the base +1 on the spike because it doesnt stack with the shields enhancement bonus, obviously.
A 32k sword might have Holy, Keen and +1 on it.
By contrast, 33k into a shield would net the same stuff plus a fire enchantment and bashing. Why not have keen on the shield? An extra 5% chance for another free swing doesn't hurt.
+1 base enchantment on the shield (1k)
Holy (+2 ench. cost, +8k gold cost)
Keen (+1 ench. cost, +7k gold cost)
Bashing (+1 ench. cost, +9k gold cost)
+1 base enchantment on the shield spike (2k)
fire (on spike) (+1 ench. cost, +6k gold cost)
Realistically I wouldnt put fire ont his shield though, I'd go with mighty cleaving since it would give my cleave another chance. I might even not bother wielding anything in my main hand other than a spiked gauntlet. If I did it would be a rod of some sort, especially if you get the Unsactioned Knowledge feat, which you ought to. Quickened Good Hope with your attack is a wonderful thing.
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Start by keeping away from feats that lock her in to sword and shield fighting. Keep the feats where she is not focused on one weapon. This is her first game. Let her find out how it works before you lock her in to a combat style at all. She might change her mind after seeing the mechanics behind it.
I do not personally recommend twf for paladins with a point buy. You are dependent on many stats as it is. Adding a extra one is not going to help her much starting out.
Human Paladin
Str>Con>Cha>Dex>Wis=Int
Two Weapon Fighting
Str>Con=Dex>Cha>Wis=Int
With it being her first character. Going for a smite base paladin is not a good idea. As she dose not under stand the mechanics behind the requirements for it to work. So going with a Str base paladin lowers the effectives of some of her paladin ability's. At the same time it keeps her over all combat effectiveness higher.
Start with some over all general feats up to level 3. By level 5 she should have a much better grasp of what she wants to do.
Feet's
Human: Improved Initiative
1st: Power Attack
3rd: Improved Over Run (Trade this for somthing else if you don't use a battle map. With out one this feet dose not see much use.)