gg405's page

Extra summon air elementals while you fly above the battlefield... anyone that flies up to meet you gives all your elemental guards bonuses. Fun times. Who needs point blank master? ;)

I like your progression a lot for focusing on archery. Also keeps the Elf instead of going Human Fighter (I'm big on flavor).

I think the OP was saying he wanted the summoning stuff specifically and the control role primarily, which was the same approach I had in mind.

EDIT:

My browser keeps early posting/double posting. :P

Sure, you could tweak it around. I wasn't trying to "really focus on archery" but rather come up with a new take on the caster druid.

I think what's interesting here is that it's a slider you can focus more towards caster druid or more towards archery or try to blend in the middle. But Nature Fang is the point, giving you the slayer stuff and killing off wild shape and a bunch of other mostly situational abilities that you probably won't miss much.

For me, the goal was to make a caster druid that could still contribute with regular old damage when necessary/helpful (other than whacking away with shillelagh), rather than an archer who had druid spells.

So, updated feat progression:

1: Spell Focus (conjure)
3: Augment Summoning
4: Slayer Talent-->Ranger Combat: Point-Blank Shot
5: Precise Shot
6: Slayer Talent-->Ranger Combat: Imp. Precise Shot
7: Rapid Shot
8: Slayer Talent-->Rogue Trick-->Combat Feat-->Manyshot
9: Extra Summoning or Deadly Aim.

May want to play around with the order some on this, like if you want to push up Rapid Shot. Not sure mathematically which is worth more, +4 to hit on melee or 2x the shots, you could figure that out as the play goes tho.

It would be more "optimized" to burn a level on fighter, and go human. This gets you Wis bonus instead of Dex, and 2 extra feats to in exchange for essentially a spontaneous spell progression.

1- Spell Focus (Conjure)
HBF- Augment Summoning
FBF- Point-Blank Shot
3: Precise Shot
5ST: RCS: Rapid Shot
5: Deadly Aim
7ST: RCS: Imp. Precise Shot
7: Extra Summoning
9ST: Rogue Trick-->Combat Feat-->Manyshot
9: Clustered Shots

That'd work.

EDIT: Nature Fang is more about giving up wild shape than giving up animal companion. However, I'd still go Eagle domain and give up the companion, as well, for the extra spells.

Hunter is interesting, but doesn't have full spell progression. Without looking at it in depth, that's a completely different approach, I'd wager. For someone who wants to focus more on the combat and spells are of a secondary nature.

Ah, good catch. Well, you could tweak it slightly, but that means it will cost you point-blank shot.

You can still take Imp Precise at level 6, though.

I found this thread because I'm pondering the same thing. Here's a couple thoughts I had:

1. Druid casters out of the box are pretty competitive (tho different) than Wizards in terms of Battlefield control role; so you shouldn't have much worry there.

2. Wild shape and archer don't mix for obvious reasons. While wild shaping into flying forms and casting from above are a great tactic, for an archer druid this will mostly be wasted. You'll want to cast a control spell, a summon, maybe a buff, and then help burn stuff down to save after-combat healing. There's no place in there that being wild shape really fits.

3. Looking at archetypes that eliminate wild shape, I came across Nature Fang. This trades out Wild Shape for, basically, slayer levels (and 1d6 sneak, for whatever that's worth, might mix well with your control spells). At 4th level, you get a Slayer Talent, which can get you a Ranger Combat Style Feat, and all its goodness. From that point on, your feats can go to Extra Slayer Talent-->Ranger Combat Style. So, every level you're taking a ranger combat feat. This is better than Ranger.

The drawback is your BAB, of course, but considering you have full Druid casting capabilities, the archery is just there for the burn down phase and lets you save your big spells for the starts of fights without having to stand around at the end doing nothing.

My initial pass at feat progression looks like this (I'm choosing Elf for the longbow proficiency):

1: Spell Focus (conjure)
3: Augment Summoning
4: Slayer Talent-->Ranger Combat: Precise Shot
5: Extra Slayer Talent-->Ranger Combat: Rapid Shot
6: Slayer Talent-->Ranger Combat: Imp. Precise Shot
7: Extra Slayer Talent-->Ranger Combat: Manyshot
8: Slayer Talent-->Rogue Trick-->Combat Feat-->Deadly Aim
9: Extra Summoning

Basically, 4-7 is where you take your bow feats, if you don't want to burn a feat on point blank. You won't want to be point blank, since you're a control character, and you need feats to get the summoning track.

Note that you get Improved Precise Shot when your BAB is +4. Sick.

At level 10, you get a swift action study target (one that kicks in automatically if you can sneak your target - use entangle to wipe our their dex bonus, then shoot them once and study is on automagically). This gives you roughly the following bonuses, assuming 18 Dex, 13 str start, 1 str at level 4, and +4 dex item:

+3/+3 studied target (switching to a new target costs only a swift action).
+6/+2 from stats
-2/+4 from deadly aim
+2/+2 from +2 comp bow (str 14)
-2/+0 from rapid shot
+7/+0 from BAB

Total:

+14/+14/+9, where first attack fires two arrows
Damage is 1d8+11 (and maybe +1d6 sneak if you're good with your controls)

What you're missing: Gravity bow, clustered shots. Getting clustered shots will cost you taking point-blank shot, there's no way around that. If you're hitting a lot of DR you can't penetrate, you might be in trouble. Depends on how your arrow selection is, I guess.

At levels 1-3, you're just a "regular" Druid. But that's still pretty strong. At levels 4-7 you start bringing the hammer. These arrows will do more for you in most cases than any direct damage spell, but basically they're for the end part of the fight when you're done casting. Instead of standing around watching the party finish things off, you can participate in burning down to end combats faster.

Pure theorycraft here, but it seems OK to me.

Also, I agree, Cleric Archer seems better because of better self-buffs, so does Wizard Archer/Arcane Archer. But if you want to do Druid Archer for flavor (like I was considering), I think this looks pretty good on paper.

(Agree with Eagle domain btw, that was my choice as well). The Hawk familiar is pretty cool, the bonuses are just OK. Aspect of the Falcon is at least a +1 to hit, and you get Fly at level 3 which is nice since you won't be wild shaping you can still fly above the battlefield and rain arrows.

I was looking at this for PFS, so 20-pt build went like this (pre-racial mods):

Str 13, Dex 16, Con 13, Int 8, Wiz 16, Cha 7.

Wis is a little low, but that's what you get for splitting focus and taking Elf for the bow prof.

Would Ketephys (who gets Animal domain) be allowed to provide Eagle, which gives a Hawk familiar and bonuses to perception (hunting) and ranged attacks. This seems *AWFULLY* appropriate for a deity whose favored weapon is a bow, whose sacred animal is a Hawk, and whose sphere of influence is "hunting". :P

Not sure I understand your point.

Did people stop playing Pathfinder? Did people stop wondering if/how Shift should interact with Dimensional Agility? Did it take you more than 10 minutes to notice I had added to the conversation?

RAW for PFS I would presume it doesn't work.

But a non-RAW-only DM who can't figure out that it should apply in *any* case where Dimension Door would normally axe your follow-up actions to restore them (the entire purpose of this feat) is a rules lawyer DM that I personally would never want to play with.

The concept behind Dimension Door is that you are disoriented when you arrive and cannot function for the rest of the round. Dimensional Agility implies that you are trained to re-orient quickly following a dimension door-like shunt (which is why it works for abundant steps, which functions "as if using the spell dimension door"). If Shift functions "as if using Dimension Door" and you incur the penalties of that spell when using it, why wouldn't the feat that specifically alleviates those penalties not also apply? Because your DM is a RAW rules lawyer, and you should find a new game with old-school RPG'ers who know that creativity, story and fun are more important than RAW. Furthermore, people who point to the difference between "as if using the spell" vs. "as if using" as the basis of disallowing are the same people who say Shift shouldn't be allowed because it's SU, not SLA. Only, Abundant Steps is also SU. So, uh, yeah.

I personally would even allow Shift to qualify you. It seems along the lines of the Fly skill, which you cannot take ranks in until you have some means of flying with which to practice it. Well, guess what, as a 1st level Teleportation wizard, you have a means to Dimension Door (a lot) and can therefore practice/learn the feat.

To start this up again, the wording actually makes *no sense* if you read it RAW:

At 1st level, as an immediate action, you can force a creature within 30 feet to reroll any one d20 roll that it has just made before the results of the roll are revealed. The creature must take the result of the reroll, even if it’s worse than the original roll.

The key here is: "force a creature to reroll... BEFORE THE RESULTS OF THE ROLL ARE REVEALED."

Now, if he *HAS* to take the 2nd roll, whether it's better or worse, then you haven't done anything. You just make the DM roll again and ignore the fact that he ever rolled the first time. Because you can't wait to see if the thing succeeded before you cast misfortune, you can't be sure you haven't just turned failure into a re-roll. In other words, the first roll doesn't factor in at all. The DM has the same chance of success on the 2nd roll as on the 1st, so this ability literally *has no effect*.

If, instead, it's like witch misfortune, then you have to roll twice and take the lowest roll, and there's a point to it.

I'm doing a similar concept (Elven Blade Dancer) and am running a Pally/Bard/Monk/Ninja. I'll tell you what I'm doing (which most think is crazy) maybe some of these ideas will help. I've been researching this guy pretty non-stop for about 3 months.

First, he is str-based, not dex-based; using an Elven Curve Blade and Glaive as primary weapons.

If I take the Paladin to 4th level, given Shelyn as my deity, I can theoretically flurry with the glaive (Crusader's Flurry); though I was planning to wear armor so I may or may not go that way.

His saves are ridiculous (pally + monk + divine grace), plus Evasion. Pa-3 gets you immunity to fear and disease. Target armor is mithril chainmail or breastplate, and he uses a magical item that can cast shield a few times a day.

Ninja gives extra damage when flanking, and some nice bonuses out of the Ki Pool, plus Acrobatics master as a trick allows you to basically "dance" your way through any combat no matter how hairy a couple times a day. If you can get the Ki from Monk combined in, you get a lot of options with your ki points (dodge AC, extra attacks, etc.).

The bard is there because your dances are so frightful and terrifying as to be inspiring to your allies (and 5th level is really all you need; that gets you a +2, and it takes 12 more bard levels to double that). You don't get much in the way of bard spells, but this guy is not a spell caster, so they are just icing. It also opens up Arcane Strike. Take the bard to level 8, add magical knack and you can get +3 damage from Arcane Strike (as caster level 10). The spells are icing, but you can get a few mirror image and haste spells a day to increase survivability and group damage output.

I'm looking to get a silver smite bracelet. With that and Pa-3, that's 3 smites/day with a +7 damage.

Stats I pumped were Str and Cha. Don't need Wis. Don't need Dex (tho it helps on init and AC as always). Maybe you want Int for skills, but mine is not super skill-based.

Any dex build you do will always have the problem of less damage than a str build; and/or tons of feats to do TWF.

Dawnflower Dervish (Dervish of Dawn) is a sick archetype, maybe even overwpoered IMO. But I wanted to inspire everyone, not just myself.

Arcane Duelist (bard arch.) meshes well (because of Rallying Cry) with Dazzling Display/Shatter Defenses, which synergizes well with Ninja sneak attack.

It sounds like one of those wtf combinations, but it's coming together quite nicely. I took Ki Mystic on Monk, but a lot of people like Master of Many Styles (especially if you never expect to flurry because of armor). The styles I liked that seemed a good fit were Dragon Style ("acrobatic footwork and powerful strikes"); janni style, and maybe monkey style. Oh, and the BAB isn't as bad as it first sounds. At a target of Pa-3/Mo-3/Ba-8/Ni-6 it's +15 at level 20, +16 with flurry. That's the same as a straight bard, cleric, rogue or ninja. The hardest part is when to fold in more classes. A lot of those classes can be +/- a level also (like, you can do Pa-2/Mo-2/Ba-8/Ni-8 if u want more dmg, imp uncanny, etc.).

Anyway, hope some of these ideas help out.

Is this overpowered? Consider:

Windy escape prevents 10 points of damage (assuming the attacker isn't using magic weapons). Or about the same amount of damage as an average cure light wounds cast by a level 5 caster. Cure light wounds is a 1st level spell. So, at low caster levels, it's better than cure light wounds. At high caster levels, it's about even. There's a tactical difference between mitigation and healing, but let's ignore that for now. There's also an advantage to the spell in being an immediate action cast.

Now, the fact that it eliminates poison, crit, and sneak attack pump up its value significantly; but whether this is really true depends on the OP's question.

If you can cast it after an attack has landed, then it is much more worthwhile. If you have to use it before the result of the attack roll is known, then sometimes you will "waste" the casting (because there is a likelihood that the attack would have missed anyway) and then basically, it would have been maybe better to just take the damage and cure it later (you know, only looking at casting slot economy for a moment).

So, bottom line, if you can cast it after the attack lands, it's probably better than cure light wounds (though only really situationally). If you have to cast it before you know the result of the attack roll, it's probably not worth the Internet bandwidth required to read it.

AoO, maneuver master, quick bull rush, shield slam, spinning throw.. all ways to get an unarmed attack followed by a bull rush in the same turn..

AoO: Seems like it would be hard/rare to get an AoO that is both:

1. "your next attack"
2. "by the end of your turn"

I can't remember getting an AoO during my turn, in the middle of my attacks, though certainly monks have lots of ways to get weird combos going. Typically, during your turn you are the one giving AoO's to people, not getting them. Seems like a super hard setup, if it can be done at all.

I don't think Shield Slam works, either:

Any opponents hit by your shield bash are also hit with a free bull rush attack

Janni only procs off unarmed strike, which a shield bash is not. If you follow an unarmed attack with a shield bash, then the bull rush is not "your next attack", the shield bash was - and again, the bonus doesn't apply.

Spinning throw doesn't work:

On a successful unarmed trip combat maneuver against an opponent your size or smaller, you can spend a swift action to attempt a bull rush combat maneuver against that opponent.

You would make an unarmed attack with janni style, then your next attack would have to be the trip maneuver, at which point the bonus to bull rush would be gone, because the janni bonus only applies "as long as the combat manoeuvre is your next attack". - unless of course tripping an opponent counts as "an unarmed attack". Not really sure there.

Quick Bull Rush doesn't work:

On your turn, you can perform a single bull rush combat maneuver in place of one of your melee attacks. You must choose the melee attack with the highest base attack bonus to make the bull rush

You had to use your highest attack bonus attack already to "proc" the janni style bonus. So you can't use it to also make a bull rush "before the end of your turn".

Maneuver Master certainly works, but it seems odd that they would write a style feat to only benefit a specific archetype.

At 1st level, as part of a full-attack action, a maneuver master can make one additional combat maneuver, regardless of whether the maneuver normally replaces a melee attack or requires a standard action.

I agree with Imbicatus. I believe these items are poorly written/tested.

More importantly, how can you do a bull rush at all?

While you are using the Janni Style feat, whenever you make an unarmed attack and hit an opponent, you gain a +4 bonus on checks made to bull rush or trip that opponent, as long as the combat manoeuvre is your next attack by the end of your turn.

The bull rush must be attempted in the same turn that you hit a target with an unarmed strike.

A monk may substitute disarm, sunder, and trip combat maneuvers for unarmed attacks as part of a flurry of blows.

But notice that you cannot substitute bull rush for one of your flurry attacks.

And, in general, bull rush is an action of its own, not an "in place of attack" action.

You can attempt to trip your opponent in place of a melee attack.

You can attempt to sunder an item held or worn by your opponent in place of a melee attack.

You can attempt to disarm your opponent in place of a melee attack.

but...

You can make a bull rush as a standard action or as part of a charge, in place of the melee attack.

Also, to the OP's question, Overrun is also a maneuver that replaces a standard action, like bull rush, so could not be made "by the end of the turn" in any turn where a normal attack had already taken place, as part of a full-round action (in order to get another attack "before the end of your turn").

My build is similar but I forgo double slice. My feats look like this:

1 Power Attack
1H Cleave
3 Improved Shield Bash
5 Two-Weapon Fighting
7 Shield Slam
9 Lunge

11 Shield Master
13 Bashing Finish
15 Great Cleave

It's tempting to take a level of fighter at 12 to get Bashing Finish (both shield master and bashing need BAB11) a level early, but I wouldn't give up the capstone.

Also, rather than Improved Crit, I get a keen scimitar. (This is overlooked in the thread, but the reason you want scimitar is for the expansive crit range: you want as many crits as possible to proc the free shield bash/bull rushes). Plus, crits are better than higher base damage when you have more added damage (like the massive smite damage).

Now, it all comes together at level 15:

Using move action, approach squad of goonies. Lunge, and do a great cleave with power attack on. You can now attack several baddies at your highest BAB (so long as you keep hitting) and each one you get a crit on (with a threat range of 15-20) gives you a free action shield bash + bull rush to knock them back or knock them prone.

Once you're in position, you have the option of doing full-attack (probably with smite to focus on the big baddie) or just keep doing great cleaves to clean house on the mob of goons crashing themselves on your massive defenses (AC ~30 at level 10). And don't forget you can swift action a lay on hands every round, if need be.

Bashing ability on shield can be helpful as well, but might not be any better than just taking another enhancement point once shield master kicks in.

Profit.

Psisquared wrote:

Create pit and sirocco- now there's a combo. Makes it hard to even fly out of the pit.

How about create pit and wall of stone on top? Trash compactor anyone?

Yeah, I was going to mention that one but you beat me to it. ;)

Oh, and just for giggles throw a Flaming Sphere in and roll it around for a few rounds before you seal them off.

... or you could be a Thunderstriker archetype fighter and use a 2H weapon *and* a buckler at the same time...

Gg, there are times when you want to cast spells out of combat.

"Boy! Fetch me my bow, so I may cast Hero's Feast! "

How is that different than "Boy! Fetch my my staff..."?

Anyway, if I'm an Arcane Archer (read: elven wizard/archer), what % of the time are you going to find me *without* a bow? 0%.

Why would you take staff?

"OK, let me put down my bow, which I'm using to rain death and destruction in the form of anarchistic, flame burst arrows upon my enemies, so I can pull my staff out of my ???? to cast gravity bow. Now, I'll drop the staff, and pick up my bow again, and resume firing... oh crap wait. I want to cast true shot. Lemme drop my bow and pick up my staff again..."

^ Really?

There also quite a few more mechanical traps in this version of the rules. Compared to other systems. Personally if I was running something. I wouldn't use magical traps very often. They be a rare, dangerous thing. Something to make the party worry and think for a moment. Instead of going...rogue disarm it. I hate people assuming all rogues can disarm traps. When I think of a rogue, I think Han Solo or Sinbad the pirate or a lesser known character, Silk from The Belgariad Books by David Eddings.

My rogue archetype will always and forever be The Grey Mouser. But mostly because I'm short.

I play a dedicated conjuration wizard whose primary attacks are summons. The rules are *very* clear on how they work, and regarding language as well:

It appears where you designate and acts immediately, on your turn.

It attacks your opponents to the best of its ability.

If you can communicate with the creature, you can direct it not to attack, to attack particular enemies, or to perform other actions.

Nowhere in there does it say you have to a) wait a few turns for it to figure out who to attack; b) that you need handle animal rolls; etc.

There are essentially two groups of monsters you can summon:

1) animals (those with intelligence 2 or less), which you can't reasonably communicate with generally speaking - these will "act immediately" to "attack your opponents to the best of its abilitiy" (and remember, these all come from the outer planes, even the mundane summons: "This spell summons an extraplanar creature")

2) outsiders/elementals - these intelligent creatures all have languages they speak. You're a wizard (presumably) with a high int. It's your job (and one you can do quite easily) to learn the languages of the guys you summon.

From a RAW perspective, I'd say you have a "right" to demand better treatment of these spells.

It says "you can spend a swift action to make a retaliatory unarmed strike attack against that opponent."

What kind of attack is this? Full attack, standard atttack, attack of oppertunity?

--

And second, semi-related question. Do natural attacks count as unarmed strikes and if not, does the feral combat training feat make them count as unarmed strikes?

To the second question, natural attacks are attacks that creatures have "naturally" - like claws, bite, talons, slam, etc.

They are generally broken into primary and secondary attacks, where secondary attacks give an attack penalty and do less damage. Some example secondary attacks are: hoof, wing.

The bottom line is that natural attacks can be thought of as "built-in weapons".

The complete rules on natural attacks are found in the universal monster rules. These rules conclude by saying "Some creatures do not have natural attacks. These creatures can make unarmed strikes just like humans do."

Unarmed attacks carry a different set of problems, such as they do not threaten squares, and using them invokes attacks of opportunity, etc. Try to throw a punch against a guy armed with a Katana and you'll see why.

Monsters have specific feats that apply to natural attacks, just like humanoids have specific feats that apply to unarmed attacks, so I would not think the two would mix/cross-pollinate.

Back to the 1st question:

"you can spend a swift action to make a retaliatory unarmed strike attack against that opponent."

It is exactly as it says: a swift action which is resolved as an unarmed strike. It is not a full attack, a standard attack or an attack of opportunity. It does not use up your standard action; it does not use up one of your attacks of opportunity; it does not use your full attack, though unless something else is going on, you cannot do one this round anyway since you had to be moving in the first place.

PS.. Most (all?) of the penalties for fighting unarmed are removed by taking Improved Unarmed Strike feat, so you can look there to quickly see what the drawbacks are to using Unarmed attacks.

But remember, none of these apply to natural attacks. A lion's claws are *very* threatening and lethal. ;)

The benefits of the Feral Combat Training feat are somewhat specific.

If you are of a race that has, or otherwise acquire, a natural attack, then taking this feat allows you to use any other feats you have that normally only apply to unarmed strikes to attacks with your natural weapon, and if you're a monk you can weave in attacks with your natural weapon into your flurry.

Example: Stunning Fist, which states "Stunning Fist forces a foe damaged by your unarmed attack". If you had a natural weapon, you would not be able to use stunning fist with it, unless you take Feral Combat Training.

I haven't checked to see how many archetypes actually replace trap finding - but if they do actually take away the abbility to disable a magical trap, rather then just lose the 1/2 level bonus I don't see how that is even close to being on par with the base class feature.

Nearly all of them. But it's not really an issue that I've seen. Dispel Magic comes at level 5 caster anyway, and most of the archetypes imply that your central function is not "trap monkey". If you want a trap monkey, skip the archetypes, or go with Burglar, Scout, or Trapsmith - which *are* trap monkeys and don't lose Trapfinding.

The archetypes (IMO) are there to focus character concept rather than allow you to min-max with the best set of abilities (there's almost no fighter archetype that is "worth it" in terms of ability trade-out, in my mind).

But, when I make an arcane archer, I love to take a couple levels of Sniper and the Archer fighter archetype because it fits so well with the concept.

It seems that a wizard whom chooses a Arcane Bond with a Staff can not cast his spells without a DC 20 Concentration Check. Is this intentional? Are the guys at Paizo against staff wielding wizards?

** spoiler omitted **

Now later on in the description is says "If a wizard attempts to cast a spell without his bonded object worn or in hand" however weild means to use as intended, and staffs are two handed weapons.

I only ask this because I was looking up a Arcane Archer build and thought the Arcane Bond feature would work great with it, only to my dismay to discover that it want.

Is the above FAQ'd anywhere?

Not really to answer your question, but why wouldn't you arcane bond with a bow instead, if you're looking at arcane archer?

Is it bad that I am disappointed that this conversation isn't about if the Levitate spell would work on a G.Cube?

That's why I came to this thread. 1) Levitate G. Cube; 2) drop on baddies; 3) profit.

Most golems and constructs that have magic immunity have a specific list of spells or types of magic that have alternate effects on them rather than having their standard immunity apply.

Where can I find this (stated or implied) in the rules?