Im a fairly new GM but things have been going basically good. We are nearing the end of my campaign and everyone seems to be enjoying themselves. The biggest problem I am beset with right now is that a player in my group is continuously buffing his dice rolls and I've gently called him out on it more than once yet he persists on doing it. I also have another player who I think is buffing his but I can never catch him in the act.
My question to all of you. What are some ways I can gently but Firmly get them to quit without just calling them out and embarrasing them? I like them as people and want them to continue having fun but without ruining my fun as GM.Tonight is the game so the quicker the responses the better. Thanx
with players that I catch cheating, nothing they roll matters. I'll scribble something on a sheet of paper when they call out yet another crit or insanely high damage, but I don't subtract it from the monster. Then when they complain that the monster won't go down or seems impervious, I hit them with my best "did you really just say that?" stare
they typically get the picture pretty quickly.
Also a good strategy I've used in the past, is to make any roll an exciting one, criticals of course are fun, but make a fumble fun and maybe even disasterously rewarding and you may teach them that any roll can help to build the story and that not only high rolls have impact in a game.
Im a fairly new GM but things have been going basically good. We are nearing the end of my campaign and everyone seems to be enjoying themselves. The biggest problem I am beset with right now is that a player in my group is continuously buffing his dice rolls and I've gently called him out on it more than once yet he persists on doing it. I also have another player who I think is buffing his but I can never catch him in the act.
My question to all of you. What are some ways I can gently but Firmly get them to quit without just calling them out and embarrasing them? I like them as people and want them to continue having fun but without ruining my fun as GM.Tonight is the game so the quicker the responses the better. Thanx
You have already talked to the one guy about it. That was a good step.
Next step could be to have a talk with the entire group about how they feel about cheating. Is it something they all think is ok? Tell them you have seen cheating going on and don't want to be part of it (if that is how you feel) and underline, that RPGs are about having fun, not about winning - if it where what should stop the GM from cheating?
From here on you can insist on people roling their dice as you watch, it may slow down the game a littl, but will stop that sort of cheating.
with players that I catch cheating, nothing they roll matters. I'll scribble something on a sheet of paper when they call out yet another crit or insanely high damage, but I don't subtract it from the monster. Then when they complain that the monster won't go down or seems impervious, I hit them with my best "did you really just say that?" stare
they typically get the picture pretty quickly.
Also one of my absolute favorites, but I never do it without first having had the "serious talk" with the player first, as DI already did.
I would have the honest players sit beside them. I might also add that due to certain people not possibly not being honest you will have another player call out what the dice roll is. If you have their modifiers written down as I suggested below they(the cheaters) will call out the correct total number.
How did you gently call them out?
I would have everyone write down certain modifiers such as saves, attacks rolls, and skill checks on a piece of paper before the game starts to make sure nobody exceeds the maximum number.
PS:If they continued to cheat I would not care if they were embarrassed or not, but I do understand the social aspect of the game so that move is not for everyone to make.
both of you have great Ideas and I will be implementing them tonight i can promise that!
with players that I catch cheating, nothing they roll matters. I'll scribble something on a sheet of paper when they call out yet another crit or insanely high damage, but I don't subtract it from the monster. Then when they complain that the monster won't go down or seems impervious, I hit them with my best "did you really just say that?" stare
they typically get the picture pretty quickly.
Also a good strategy I've used in the past, is to make any roll an exciting one, criticals of course are fun, but make a fumble fun and maybe even disasterously rewarding and you may teach them that any roll can help to build the story and that not only high rolls have impact in a game.
The problem with this is that if the monster lives and kills an honest player's character then he suffers due to someone else. Of course you might have the monster focus all of its attacks on the character doing all of the damage. That is also realistic from a tactical point of view, and the honest person most likely won't suffer from it.
In my earliest days in the hobby the group I played in had a similar issue. The DM simply made the announcement that all roles had to be made in plain view of everyone. (Center of the table) He never used the word cheating to prevent folks from getting defensive, just said he wanted to try out a method he read about somewhere. Sure, a couple of times during the first few games there were tiffs where he had to be firm, (Not allowing dice results to count) but after a time it just became expected.
Hope this helps....
Im a fairly new GM but things have been going basically good. We are nearing the end of my campaign and everyone seems to be enjoying themselves. The biggest problem I am beset with right now is that a player in my group is continuously buffing his dice rolls and I've gently called him out on it more than once yet he persists on doing it. I also have another player who I think is buffing his but I can never catch him in the act.
My question to all of you. What are some ways I can gently but Firmly get them to quit without just calling them out and embarrasing them? I like them as people and want them to continue having fun but without ruining my fun as GM.Tonight is the game so the quicker the responses the better. Thanx
I have one guy in my group who cheats. so all charecter rolls are done on the table. and if a player wants to claim a crit, there has to be at least 1 witnes to the roll.
These are house rules in my game and apply to all players.
I would have the honest players sit beside them. I might also add that due to certain people not possibly not being honest you will have another player call out what the dice roll is. If you have their modifiers written down as I suggested below they(the cheaters) will call out the correct total number.
How did you gently call them out?
I would have everyone write down certain modifiers such as saves, attacks rolls, and skill checks on a piece of paper before the game starts to make sure nobody exceeds the maximum number.
PS:If they continued to cheat I would not care if they were embarrassed or not, but I do understand the social aspect of the game so that move is not for everyone to make.
Top Ideas Wraithstrike, I shall use them at my next game :)
In my 4e games, my ranger has such a wild mix of situational bonuses that I use poker chips to keep the bonuses straight. Before my turn comes up I have the poker chips set up so that when I roll, I can leave the dice in plain sight and count up the poker chips in front of the group so that there is no question about the end result. I've done this so long now that it's become a quick and simple habit. Nobody questions any of my dice rolls any more.
The best way to deal with this in my experience is to have the dice left on the table until the attack is resolved. If the player picks up the dice before the attack is resolved, the DM rules on whether it was a hit or miss.
The same goes for damage. I have started following the 4e model of rolling attack and damage simultaneously, I think it helps to speed things up and reduces the opportunity to fudge dice. Just let the players know that dice are rolled in the open and left on the table until the attack is resolved. If the player picks them up too fast, then the DM rules on the result.
Pretty simple. Make it a rule for everybody. Don't single anyone out.
both of you have great Ideas and I will be implementing them tonight i can promise that!
Let us know how it works out. Good luck !
In my earliest days in the hobby the group I played in had a similar issue. The DM simply made the announcement that all roles had to be made in plain view of everyone. (Center of the table) He never used the word cheating to prevent folks from getting defensive, just said he wanted to try out a method he read about somewhere. Sure, a couple of times during the first few games there were tiffs where he had to be firm, (Not allowing dice results to count) but after a time it just became expected.
Hope this helps....
+1. I've dealt with cheaters a few times over the years, and dealt with them a variety of ways, and this is the best I've found. Just make it your policy that all their rolls have to be in the open and that they shouldn't roll until called upon. If you set that as the policy for everyone, and enforce it, there is no reason for anyone to complain and it removes the temptation to cheat.
The problem with this is that if the monster lives and kills an honest player's character then he suffers due to someone else. Of course you might have the monster focus all of its attacks on the character doing all of the damage. That is also realistic from a tactical point of view, and the honest person most likely won't suffer from it.with players that I catch cheating, nothing they roll matters. I'll scribble something on a sheet of paper when they call out yet another crit or insanely high damage, but I don't subtract it from the monster. Then when they complain that the monster won't go down or seems impervious, I hit them with my best "did you really just say that?" stare
they typically get the picture pretty quickly.
Also a good strategy I've used in the past, is to make any roll an exciting one, criticals of course are fun, but make a fumble fun and maybe even disasterously rewarding and you may teach them that any roll can help to build the story and that not only high rolls have impact in a game.
oh, most certainly, never punish the group for the misdeeds of one. The cheater gets the brunt of the attack.
on a side note, what really really bugs the everloving crap out of me, is players who can't keep their bonuses straight. It is a constant act at our table that a player will roll to hit, call a number, is told they miss, then go back and forth through all their sheets until they can "magically" find a bonus. This is what has caused me to start my first tactic. With that player, I take his first number, if he then goes back and "finds" a plus, I just stare at him and scratch something on my paper. Get your pluses right the first fudging time, they don't change that much, I assume you passed 2nd grade and know how to count for god's sake.
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I didnt read what others have suggested, so apologies if this doubles up someone elses.
If you dont want to make it embarrassing, then just issue a change of how die rolling works in your group. All die rolling must be in the open, on the table. if you dont personally see the result of the die roll, it must be picked up and done again.
Yes, it kinda sucks, and is kinda harsh for everyone who you dont suspect of cheating, but if the other players dont like it, and are aware of the reason its being done, amybe they will get upset with the cheater(s) and call them out on it.
After all, isnt that what every GM wants? Players who keep each other in line?
The problem with this is that if the monster lives and kills an honest player's character then he suffers due to someone else. Of course you might have the monster focus all of its attacks on the character doing all of the damage. That is also realistic from a tactical point of view, and the honest person most likely won't suffer from it.with players that I catch cheating, nothing they roll matters. I'll scribble something on a sheet of paper when they call out yet another crit or insanely high damage, but I don't subtract it from the monster. Then when they complain that the monster won't go down or seems impervious, I hit them with my best "did you really just say that?" stare
they typically get the picture pretty quickly.
Also a good strategy I've used in the past, is to make any roll an exciting one, criticals of course are fun, but make a fumble fun and maybe even disasterously rewarding and you may teach them that any roll can help to build the story and that not only high rolls have impact in a game.
oh, most certainly, never punish the group for the misdeeds of one. The cheater gets the brunt of the attack.
on a side note, what really really bugs the everloving crap out of me, is players who can't keep their bonuses straight. It is a constant act at our table that a player will roll to hit, call a number, is told they miss, then go back and forth through all their sheets until they can "magically" find a bonus. This is what has caused me to start my first tactic. With that player, I take his first number, if he then goes back and "finds" a plus, I just stare at him and scratch something on my paper. Get your pluses right the first fudging time, they don't change that much, I assume you passed 2nd grade and know how to count for god's sake.
Sometime players that know they are not good at math just won't organize the character sheet. I have players write the the regular attacks, and also the modifier for any special attacks such as power attack, smiting, smiting with power attack, and so on. That way they don't have to do the math in their heads.
Example(not a real stat block, just an example)Greatsword: +7 to attack 2d6+4
Power attacking with greatsword: +5 to attack 2d6+10
Smiting and power attack: +7 to attack 2d6+19
I actually came up with that idea just to stop a player from cheating, but it is a legitimate way to stop cheating.
Over the past 20+ years of running games I've had a few folks cheat at the table. I've had players use phony dice (pips changed to have more 4's, 5's, and 6's), multi-hued dice (can't read the numbers unless you're looking directly over the result), add more bonuses than they should have, roll the wrong die, etc. DM's have to be vigilant!
I always have players (all players, not singling anyone out) roll in front of me. The standard rule is if I don't see them roll then it doesn't count. That's not to say I enforce the rule 100%, as I get lax when I learn to trust the player, but it is a rule I can fall back on if necessary. You just have to learn to be wary of people that roll where you can't see, or use hard to read dice, or snatch dice away very quickly after rolling.
The one time I had someone using loaded dice I took them away and used them against him (and just him) for a long time afterwards. I still have the dice in my bag, actually, but they're in a separate bag all to themselves. I occasionally take them out and marvel at them. Very clever, those PCs!
Sometime players that know they are not good at math just won't organize the character sheet. I have players write the the regular attacks, and also the...The problem with this is that if the monster lives and kills an honest player's character then he suffers due to someone else. Of course you might have the monster focus all of its attacks on the character doing all of the damage. That is also realistic from a tactical point of view, and the honest person most likely won't suffer from it.with players that I catch cheating, nothing they roll matters. I'll scribble something on a sheet of paper when they call out yet another crit or insanely high damage, but I don't subtract it from the monster. Then when they complain that the monster won't go down or seems impervious, I hit them with my best "did you really just say that?" stare
they typically get the picture pretty quickly.
Also a good strategy I've used in the past, is to make any roll an exciting one, criticals of course are fun, but make a fumble fun and maybe even disasterously rewarding and you may teach them that any roll can help to build the story and that not only high rolls have impact in a game.
oh, most certainly, never punish the group for the misdeeds of one. The cheater gets the brunt of the attack.
on a side note, what really really bugs the everloving crap out of me, is players who can't keep their bonuses straight. It is a constant act at our table that a player will roll to hit, call a number, is told they miss, then go back and forth through all their sheets until they can "magically" find a bonus. This is what has caused me to start my first tactic. With that player, I take his first number, if he then goes back and "finds" a plus, I just stare at him and scratch something on my paper. Get your pluses right the first fudging time, they don't change that much, I assume you passed 2nd grade and know how to count for god's sake.
oh yes, we do that as well, but it never fails to happen anyhow. In our most current game, I made the players character and even wrote it down on a character sheet, with all relevant bonuses listed next to all the attack options and whatnot...he still does it.
Sometime players that know they are not good at math just won't organize the character sheet. I have players write the the regular attacks, and also the modifier for any special attacks such as power attack, smiting, smiting with power attack, and so on. That way they don't have to do the math in their heads.
Example(not a real stat block, just an example)
Greatsword: +7 to attack 2d6+4
Power attacking with greatsword: +5 to attack 2d6+10
Smiting and power attack: +7 to attack 2d6+19I actually came up with that idea just to stop a player from cheating, but it is a legitimate way to stop cheating.
This is how I keep track of all of my modifiers. I've had a player that writes all his bonuses down separately so he knows where he gets modifiers. Unfortunately his method leads to him rolling and then spending 10 seconds adding up numbers per roll. I've repeatedly asked him to write the totals down as well so he can quickly add, but for some reason he has never made the change. I wasn't in the GM in the campaign so I didn't press the issue though.
I've had cheaters in my group with rolling, including some I never realized until after they stopped playing with the group (other people telling me afterward).
Personally having a one on one is an option or simply make everyone roll publicly. I definitely recommend having all critical rolls confirmed by at least one other person.
I'd go with all rolls in the open and the dice left alone until the round is resolved.
That way you can query the end results if required - under the guise of helping or understanding character build better, hey you never know maybe he isn't cheating (that time)
Having the rolls in the open helps keep the other players involved as well since they can be active spectators cheering their fellow player on.
My philosophy is that the game doesn't have an 'opponent' so it doesn't really matter if someone 'cheats' or not. That said, most of the cheating I've experienced at the gaming table has been minor, and usually the result of a frustrated player who continues to roll so bad that he finally cheats in frustration. I just let it go since it doesn't impact anything going on. I can always pop in more monsters if the fight needs them or adjust things as needed. As long as everyone's having fun, it doesn't bother me.
But I can certainly understand the frustration if a player is continuously 'rolling' critical hits every round. Clearly something is up. Other players may have issue as well, since everyone wants to have the opportunity to shine at the table.
My advice would be to engage the other players at the table who aren't cheating. If they have issue with it, then broach the group as a whole about the option of rolling in plain sight. When facilitating a group, such as what a DM does, it's best to let the players work it out themselves so the solution becomes a group decision rather than one imposed on them. Say as little as necessarily to keep the dialogue friendly and flowing. You could even suggest picking up a dice tray to put in the middle where everyone can toss their dice into.
Just remember its a game you are all playing together. This is a time for you to use your social skills among friends.
People don't usually cheat because they are lame, they usually cheat because they care--they want to help the party, they dont want to miss because missing sucks, whatever.
It helps to first foster a supportive game group where if a guy misses he doesn't get teased by the group.
I am 44 years old and have played D&D (and been the GM) since I was 10. That's 34 years of D&D (now Pathfinder).
Just be careful you don't damage friendships over a game.
Its already been suggested, but BY FAR the best approach is to have ALL ROLLS (including yours unless secrecy is called for) should be ON THE TABLE IN FULL VIEW AND STAY THERE until success or failure is determined.
I foster a team attitude at the table so everyone cheers in dramatic situations when its your turn to throw the dagger that might kill the villain.
Let me give you a BIG HUGE DM tip from my vault of experience:
[wait for it]
Make missing cool.
That's right. You heard it. Make missing cool. If missing is OK, the desire to cheat is reduced.
How do you do that?
I routinely dramatize in words the result of the roll.
If there is a great hit, I describe it in ways I know appeals to the play style of the player. Lets say I have a guy who is a joe cool--in other words, likes to dispatch foes without breaking a sweat or even and expression. If he crits a guy to kill him, I probably say "Your flashing sword slashes the orc in two, and you step over his fallen body, looking down at his corpse without a sound." Think about what your players like and want from their game and give it to them.
Then use that same approach when there is a miss. Here is how you do it: Blame the miss on the target, not the player.
For instance, if the NPC is about to get away, and the last party member to act is your rogue before the bad guy goes and escapes and you have to toss a dagger and you know the NPC has like 4 hp left, that is a high pressure roll.
You WANT that roll to happen on the table in the middle. You WANT everyone looking and waiting and ready to explode with F#@* YEAH! when you hit.
Anyone who ever played with me at GenCon knows my table. We are the ones that have to be asked to be quiet because everyone is having a blast and going nuts.
So, here comes the big roll. You throw your dagger and...... You miss. Big. That sucks. You let the whole party down.
That's where the good GM comes in. Play up the heroism of the miss and blame the bad guy.
I say: "Veldar twists and at the last possible second tries an impossible throw (see how I'm already making failure ok, it was an "impossible throw"). Your dagger flies true, but at the last second the priest ducks. Your dagger buries itself in the wood panel, taking with it a small piece of his cloak and nicking his shoulder. He glances over his shoulder at you, and you can see he knows how close he was to death."
Now, that miss doesnt seem so lame.
Make missing cool and people won't cheat. They will accept bad rolls.
Now all that said, you will still have cheaters. Talk to them fair. Talk to them individually. Don't say they cheated. Say they moved the dice quick and you really want them to roll in the open. Meet with them before the next game and make sure you know their plusses and minuses. Record their to hit and damage and then keep that in mind when they roll so you can check them. I always know my party's bonuses better than they do.
Just a few thoughts.
Clark, I think your advice is very solid and shows a lot of understanding of group dynamics and social interaction.
But I could not help notice that you twice in your description took it upon yourself as the GM to describe the actions of a Player Character.
I find this very strange. I've been running campaigns for a bit longer than you have and even though I've never done a GenCon campaign, I've been told that my campaigns are well run and enjoyable.
I would never, ever, under ANY CIRCUMSTANCES describe a player character actions such as "you split the goblin in two and without a word stare down at the corpse."
I find that to be a first order violation of the game contract between me and the player. I don't tell him what his character does, and he doesn't tell me what my NPCs do. If he wants his character to stare quietly down at a corpse, he will tell me that.
Am I crazy here? Does anyone else read this and think "Huh, who's running that player character anyway?"
Clark, I think your advice is very solid and shows a lot of understanding of group dynamics and social interaction.
But I could not help notice that you twice in your description took it upon yourself as the GM to describe the actions of a Player Character.
I find this very strange. I've been running campaigns for a bit longer than you have and even though I've never done a GenCon campaign, I've been told that my campaigns are well run and enjoyable.
I would never, ever, under ANY CIRCUMSTANCES describe a player character actions such as "you split the goblin in two and without a word stare down at the corpse."
I find that to be a first order violation of the game contract between me and the player. I don't tell him what his character does, and he doesn't tell me what my NPCs do. If he wants his character to stare quietly down at a corpse, he will tell me that.
Am I crazy here? Does anyone else read this and think "Huh, who's running that player character anyway?"
I think descriptive words add to the game. It is not the same as controlling a character. The player has already hit or missed. You are just giving a visual affect to it. If my NPC misses, and the player says the NPC hit his armor, but failed to penetrate it, that does not mean he is controlling the NPC. He is just giving a visual to an already completed action. Everyone I have gamed with has enjoyed the visuals. I actually need to do them more often.
As long as staring down at the corpse does not take away the player's action or open him up to an attack or anything else mechanical it would not matter with one additional caveat.I think the DM should limit the visuals unless he really knows the character's personality.
If there is a great hit, I describe it in ways I know appeals to the play style of the player.
It seems Clarke has the same idea.
Clark, I think your advice is very solid and shows a lot of understanding of group dynamics and social interaction.
But I could not help notice that you twice in your description took it upon yourself as the GM to describe the actions of a Player Character.
I find this very strange. I've been running campaigns for a bit longer than you have and even though I've never done a GenCon campaign, I've been told that my campaigns are well run and enjoyable.
I would never, ever, under ANY CIRCUMSTANCES describe a player character actions such as "you split the goblin in two and without a word stare down at the corpse."
I find that to be a first order violation of the game contract between me and the player. I don't tell him what his character does, and he doesn't tell me what my NPCs do. If he wants his character to stare quietly down at a corpse, he will tell me that.
Am I crazy here? Does anyone else read this and think "Huh, who's running that player character anyway?"
I think descriptive words add to the game. It is not the same as controlling a character. The player has already hit or missed. You are just giving a visual affect to it. If my NPC misses, and the player says the NPC hit his armor, but failed to penetrate it, that does not mean he is controlling the NPC. He is just giving a visual to an already completed action. Everyone I have gamed with has enjoyed the visuals. I actually need to do them more often.
As long as staring down at the corpse does not take away the player's action or open him up to an attack or anything else mechanical it would not matter with one additional caveat.
I think the DM should limit the visuals unless he really knows the character's personality.If there is a great hit, I describe it in ways I know appeals to the play style of the player.It seems Clarke has the same idea.
Hmmm... I do think Clark just steps a little over that line there, though, with the part about "silently staring." That touches on action based on personality, which is the purview of the player in that case.
I'm not going to say I have never offered up an idea of what I would think of as the PC's reaction, but it has always been in situations where we were all laughing about the predictable nature of a particular character, and it was always amongst comments made or embellished by the others, and in the end was never forced into canon. I always left it to the player to get the last word/wipe the slate clean/tell us what the PC REALLY thought, etc.
Description is great. We all know that a miss isn't always a miss. Sometimes it's a deflection or dodge. Sometimes a crit means some monster is cleaved in half. But we should only describe it up to the point the game mechanic requires coloring. We shouldn't then decide whether the PC smiles, stares, smirks, drops his jaw, etc. That's for the player.
Hmmm... I do think Clark just steps a little over that line there,...Clark, I think your advice is very solid and shows a lot of understanding of group dynamics and social interaction.
But I could not help notice that you twice in your description took it upon yourself as the GM to describe the actions of a Player Character.
I find this very strange. I've been running campaigns for a bit longer than you have and even though I've never done a GenCon campaign, I've been told that my campaigns are well run and enjoyable.
I would never, ever, under ANY CIRCUMSTANCES describe a player character actions such as "you split the goblin in two and without a word stare down at the corpse."
I find that to be a first order violation of the game contract between me and the player. I don't tell him what his character does, and he doesn't tell me what my NPCs do. If he wants his character to stare quietly down at a corpse, he will tell me that.
Am I crazy here? Does anyone else read this and think "Huh, who's running that player character anyway?"
I think descriptive words add to the game. It is not the same as controlling a character. The player has already hit or missed. You are just giving a visual affect to it. If my NPC misses, and the player says the NPC hit his armor, but failed to penetrate it, that does not mean he is controlling the NPC. He is just giving a visual to an already completed action. Everyone I have gamed with has enjoyed the visuals. I actually need to do them more often.
As long as staring down at the corpse does not take away the player's action or open him up to an attack or anything else mechanical it would not matter with one additional caveat.
I think the DM should limit the visuals unless he really knows the character's personality.If there is a great hit, I describe it in ways I know appeals to the play style of the player.It seems Clarke has the same idea.
I see your point, and I don't think the would do it for everyone, just for those that would not mind.
Of course this is an assumption based on how far I take things with players.Back on topic with the cheating thing: I do think the dice roll being witnessed combined with prerecorded stat given to the DM is the best option. That way nobody is singled out.
Ok,
I'm a little bit confused here. How can a player cheat at rolling dices?
Do they roll them covered?
My players always roll open and so I can see what they roll, so no cheating.
luckily i dont have too many players cheating. most of my players are my brothers and we've gamed together since kids. the ones who i often suspect of cheating are friends or friends of friends. my brothers often are the ones to call out cheating. for instance, one battle our newest addition just flat out cheated and not even with dice. i didn't even catch it. he full attacked and moved then after im ready to go to next initiative one of my bros was like "wait how did you move way overthere!?" PC "umm ahh... i took a 5' step?" bro "since when is a 5' step 30'!? wait its not even 30' its 45'!" my bro proceeded to grab his figure and move it back. It was such blatant cheating that everyone still ridicules him to this day. when the player can't get into to melee range everyone is quick to tell him to just take a 5' step! this player also like to try to take 3.5 feats and abilities without consulting me. we're transitioning to pathfinder and i allow some 3.5 in as a case by case basis. There getting it out of there system as i've told them next path im using all pathfinder and maybe some 3rd party compatible.
It helps a lot to prevent cheating when you have other players who call cheating flat out lol.
Ok,
I'm a little bit confused here. How can a player cheat at rolling dices?
Do they roll them covered?My players always roll open and so I can see what they roll, so no cheating.
We have had a problem with a cheating player in our current campaign. He would literally hold a book up against his chest and roll on that book and snatch the die up quickly and then come up with a 20+ result at 1st level. We knew he was cheating and so did the GM, heck he even cheats at golf so it was to be expected with this player. Now, after the GM talked to him, he rolls out in the open and doesn't snatch up the die so quickly anymore.
How do players cheat at dice?
Usually, in my experience anyway, the cheating isn't done at the dice roll itself, but in counting up bonuses. So a player with a +5 to attack who needs an 18 to hit but rolls a 12 usually doesn't say they rolled a 13, they usually say "12 on the die, does an 18 hit?" When called on it they will usually say "oops, my bad, it's only 17."
This is hard to keep track of for the GM because usually there are several existing effects in play on the roll. There may be a buff on the character's roll, or a debuff on the target's AC, etc. My 4e ranger has at least half a dozen situational modifiers that can come into play each attack. It even confuses me sometimes. To keep track I use poker chips to lay out the bonus to the attack and damage before I roll the die. That way the total of the die and the stack of chips is clear to everyone and I don't have to sit there and go "OK, so combat advantage is +2, prime shot is +1, but with prime quarry, that's another +1, and the invoker gives me a +2 for one round..."
It's not quite so bad in 3.5 but there are still lots and lots of situational modifiers that come into play, and it's been my experience that it is much more likely that someone is "miscalculating" their situational modifiers than that they blatantly lie about a die roll.
The real question, is what to do about cheating GMs.
:)
A good while back, I did notice it as a player and a GM too, with one specific player.
While we were playing, and I noted, after seeing a few perception checks, that his bonus was the same as mine, +8, but over the course of 3 game sessions, it magically jumped to +9, then +10, and finally +12, all without going up levels or access to buying any sort of magical item that could in theory, grant him that +4 bonus.
Unfortunately, I was unable to continue gaming with my group, as my daughter was just born, and couldn't talk to him or our GM about it.
As a player, I made a couple of table rules to help me keep track of bonuses, and also help keep track of player's rolls.
The first thing I did as a GM was to ask that all rolls be rolled in view of at least 2 other people, our group numbering 7 at that time, not counting the GM.
Secondly, I asked that every player give me their "to hits," "Damages" and hit point totals, so that I could take control of the character if needed.
Once certain players noticed that I could add up their rolls and bonuses to verify the maths myself, the cheating slowed right down to almost insignificant levels.
But as a general rule for criticalss, house rules of course, a 1 on any roll is automatically a critical failure, and a 20 is automatically a critical success, for us, the players, and the monsters.
Also, most of the time, we are so proud of rolling a critical, that we grab the nearest person's attention and quite smugly say "Look at that!"
We generally roll out in front of everyone, if there is a crit, everyone is like sweet, if there are more than one everyone actually looks over there in a "really?" amazement way, but you can always see the dice.
Fumbles are cool, they have saved the party more than once (really) where it was looking like a TPK but the monster did some blunder ( we use the crit fumble deck) and it has been something the party could really take advantage of.
When a Pc fumbles it's not huge because it's one of four or five people. SO we like that.
The real question, is what to do about cheating GMs.
:)
Depends on who's behalf they're cheating ;)
Get a Dice Tower that only rolls out on your end...
Done and Done...you give the die back, after you look at it.
I would never, ever, under ANY CIRCUMSTANCES describe a player character actions such as "you split the goblin in two and without a word stare down at the corpse."
I hear what you are saying.
It wouldnt work, likely, with a new group. But if it is someone you are familiar with I find that works fine and people are WAY TOO anal about that rule. Once you develop that team dynamic, if they want a different description, they will often say, "how about I decapitate him and kick his head to the side." I say "fine."
I think the "rule" you are referring to is actually a better "rule" when writing adventures. In the lead in/read aloud text you should not presume actions. That, however, is different.
If you build trust with your group, and if you know their game style and wants and needs, they almost turn to you waiting to see how you describe it. Its part of the storytelling art. I'd hate to see Gms not do that for some fear of crossing a line.
But its a good point to bring up and frankly if you do that, talk about it with your players afterwards. Ask them, did you have a problem with the way I detailed your characters actions? Would you like me to do it different?
But whether or not you agree with my particular approach, the end suggestion is the same--build a team/table dynamic that makes rolling a group event and failure acceptable and the desire to cheat is diminished
Clark
But whether or not you agree with my particular approach, the end suggestion is the same--build a team/table dynamic that makes rolling a group event and failure acceptable and the desire to cheat is diminishedClark
Understood. I'm not trying to be critical, I was genuinely surprised that your post, which came across as such a solid, GM-savvy post, contained something that struck me like a splinter in my eye when it comes to what I've always considered the most sacrosanct GM/Player "contract."
I don't believe I'm "anal" about that. But in your mind, maybe I am. I have to honestly say that if you did that for MY character, even if the table was rocking and rolling and having a grand old time, I would very politely and quietly ask you to please not play my character for me. I take my role playing very seriously, and I'm not kidding, if I want my character to sneer down at a fallen foe, I'll do the sneering down at the fallen foe, thank you very much. So perhaps I am anal about it. ;-P
But whether or not you agree with my particular approach, the end suggestion is the same--build a team/table dynamic that makes rolling a group event and failure acceptable and the desire to cheat is diminishedClark
Understood. I'm not trying to be critical, I was genuinely surprised that your post, which came across as such a solid, GM-savvy post, contained something that struck me like a splinter in my eye when it comes to what I've always considered the most sacrosanct GM/Player "contract."
I don't believe I'm "anal" about that. But in your mind, maybe I am. I have to honestly say that if you did that for MY character, even if the table was rocking and rolling and having a grand old time, I would very politely and quietly ask you to please not play my character for me. I take my role playing very seriously, and I'm not kidding, if I want my character to sneer down at a fallen foe, I'll do the sneering down at the fallen foe, thank you very much. So perhaps I am anal about it. ;-P
actually what I get from Clarks post is he would only do that if you both were comfortable about it.
A side effect of his technique is often you will find the players becoming more descriptive in their attack/actions.
actually what I get from Clarks post is he would only do that if you both were comfortable about it.
A side effect of his technique is often you will find the players becoming more descriptive in their attack/actions.
No doubt. However, it has been my experience that people (including GMs) are creatures of habit, and as such, I suspect even a great GM will fall back on habit frequently.
As I said, perhaps I am anal about my characters, but I would not find this style of GMing to work that well with me. But I suspect Clark would pick up on that quickly and allow me to describe my own character's actions.
Anyway, no bad, I just thought it was an interesting comment.
I read most of the thread, skimmed the last bit... Biggest thing I see is this. A lot of people are suggesting rolling out in the open or leaving on the table for the GM to verify. The problem with this, is if I roll a 1, as a player I just have to pick up my die, say I got a 10 (or some other lower but believable number) and hey, look at that, I don't get screwed by failing (especially if using the fumble deck)... Even if the GM has you re-roll it, you've avoided the penalty and might even succeed on the roll.
Really, it comes down to the people you choose to play with.
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I've been at a table with two evident cheaters before. One was an older player who had the '10' sided '20' sided die. He colored in one set of the numbers and would alternate which was high before rolling the dice. When we were in that bad combat if it came up bad he scooped that die up so quick and would call out a different number.
The other player did the quick scoop method, but for some reason every one of those was a natural '20'! This same player also liked to pre-roll his characters at home and wouldn't ya know they all had 18's in those key stats! Seriously if he made a Ranger (1st edition) it had the 18 str, 18 Dex, and 18 Con! Then the lowest stat we'd ever seen on any of these characters was a 15!
Well one day as a group during our 'dinner break', which used to game for 12 hours, we decided to roll up all new lvl 1 characters and start a fresh new adventure. The catch was at the end of character creation we would submit all the character names to a 'hat' and draw for the character you played. He came back from dinner, pulled out his pre-gen. We told him what we were doing and he was all onbaord! Until he drew out the stinky dwarf fighter. He pouted all night, it was hilarious! He stopped cheating though and started rolling characters at the table with everyone else.
Depends on who's behalf they're cheating ;)The real question, is what to do about cheating GMs.
:)
I had one GM who continually, every night, fudged the HP of the monsters, for on-the-fly encounter scaling. I guess he had this idea that fights were more exciting if they came close to TPWing us, so he would basically just keep tacking on HPs to the monsters until we were almost dead, then let the monsters die at the last minute. Which of course completely backfired since we're not dumb and realized he was doing it, which made it pointless to do anything in any of his fights but just lollygag around and wait for the monsters to fall over. Our decisions didn't actually mean anything.
Well one day as a group during our 'dinner break', which used to game for 12 hours, we decided to roll up all new lvl 1 characters and start a fresh new adventure. The catch was at the end of character creation we would submit all the character names to a 'hat' and draw for the character you played. He came back from dinner, pulled out his pre-gen. We told him what we were doing and he was all onbaord! Until he drew out the stinky dwarf fighter. He pouted all night, it was hilarious! He stopped cheating though and started rolling characters at the table with everyone else.
I may actually try this at some point, not because I have cheaters but because I think it'd be really interesting. I wouldn't even mind playing in a game like that, definitely makes it to where you might have to move out of your comfort zone in character creation.
I had one GM who continually, every night, fudged the HP of the monsters, for on-the-fly encounter scaling. I guess he had this idea that fights were more exciting if they came close to TPWing us, so he would basically just keep tacking on HPs to the monsters until we were almost dead, then let the monsters die at the last minute. Which of course completely backfired since we're not dumb and realized he was doing it, which made it pointless to do anything in any of his fights but just lollygag around and wait for the monsters to fall over. Our decisions didn't actually mean anything.
That sucks. I've done very small adjustments to combat (whether for the party in case of bad luck, or to make a lame encounter slightly better), but nothing ever consistently. You last line is the thing I absolutely avoid as much as possible. Sorry you got stuck in that position.
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I had one GM who continually, every night, fudged the HP of the monsters, for on-the-fly encounter scaling. I guess he had this idea that fights were more exciting if they came close to TPWing us, so he would basically just keep tacking on HPs to the monsters until we were almost dead, then let the monsters die at the last minute. Which of course completely backfired since we're not dumb and realized he was doing it, which made it pointless to do anything in any of his fights but just lollygag around and wait for the monsters to fall over. Our decisions didn't actually mean anything.Depends on who's behalf they're cheating ;)The real question, is what to do about cheating GMs.
:)
My most underwhelming GM moments was when I spent a couple hours advancing and making gargantuan the Bebilith, to present a truly awesome horror deep in Treebole. I think there was actually two of them, just to be viscous. I had the terrain all set up with murky water of unknown depth, and little mossy hillocks for some footing.
When the Cleric breaks out banishment, and I drop to will saves for my beasties.
Vooooooom, like that both of them gone, because like a shmoe... Advanced + Gargantuan does not equal more hit dice.
I looked at the dice behind my screen, looked at the cleric, gave him a nod of respect and lifted my figs from the mat.
It hurt, but dice have gotta be fair on both sides of the screen.
When the Cleric breaks out banishment, and I drop to will saves for my beasties.
Vooooooom, like that both of them gone, because like a shmoe... Advanced + Gargantuan does not equal more hit dice.
I looked at the dice behind my screen, looked at the cleric, gave him a nod of respect and lifted my figs from the mat.
It hurt, but dice have gotta be fair on both sides of the screen.
I've recently just dumped the screens and I let the players know the stats as soon as they test them.
"I cast baleful polymorph at the monster. DC 22"
"Okay, he needs a 6 or better to save" ... then roll it out in front of everyone. Any excitement that would be removed by the spell working is replaced by the anticipation that the spell might work! It's really a wonderful way to run a game, honestly.
Clark, I think your advice is very solid and shows a lot of understanding of group dynamics and social interaction.
But I could not help notice that you twice in your description took it upon yourself as the GM to describe the actions of a Player Character.
I find this very strange. I've been running campaigns for a bit longer than you have and even though I've never done a GenCon campaign, I've been told that my campaigns are well run and enjoyable.
I would never, ever, under ANY CIRCUMSTANCES describe a player character actions such as "you split the goblin in two and without a word stare down at the corpse."
I find that to be a first order violation of the game contract between me and the player. I don't tell him what his character does, and he doesn't tell me what my NPCs do. If he wants his character to stare quietly down at a corpse, he will tell me that.
Am I crazy here? Does anyone else read this and think "Huh, who's running that player character anyway?"
As a DM, I've done this too, but only when the situation "calls for it", it's kind of a hazy, gray area though. I encourage my players to tell me, in detail, what they are doing. I game with a lot of new players, people new to gaming in general, who maybe are a little shy, or don't know what to say outside of the mechanical action. If all they say is" I attack the orc. I rolled a X.", then I'll embellish the action a little. If they describe to me how they are hitting the orc, I'll only describe what the orc is doing.
Some players don't have a fleshed-out, cinematic play-by-play for every single thing their character is doing at every moment. Sometimes the DM just adds some flavor to the scene.
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Clark, I think your advice is very solid and shows a lot of understanding of group dynamics and social interaction.
But I could not help notice that you twice in your description took it upon yourself as the GM to describe the actions of a Player Character.
I find this very strange. I've been running campaigns for a bit longer than you have and even though I've never done a GenCon campaign, I've been told that my campaigns are well run and enjoyable.
I would never, ever, under ANY CIRCUMSTANCES describe a player character actions such as "you split the goblin in two and without a word stare down at the corpse."
I find that to be a first order violation of the game contract between me and the player. I don't tell him what his character does, and he doesn't tell me what my NPCs do. If he wants his character to stare quietly down at a corpse, he will tell me that.
Am I crazy here? Does anyone else read this and think "Huh, who's running that player character anyway?"
As a DM, I've done this too, but only when the situation "calls for it", it's kind of a hazy, gray area though. I encourage my players to tell me, in detail, what they are doing. I game with a lot of new players, people new to gaming in general, who maybe are a little shy, or don't know what to say outside of the mechanical action. If all they say is" I attack the orc. I rolled a X.", then I'll embellish the action a little. If they describe to me how they are hitting the orc, I'll only describe what the orc is doing.
Some players don't have a fleshed-out, cinematic play-by-play for every single thing their character is doing at every moment. Sometimes the DM just adds some flavor to the scene.
I'd say the first half was fair "you split the goblin in two" and the later half was not "and without a word stare down at the corpse."
I might even go so far as to say, "Graywand slices through the goblin's flesh as if it we're paper, splitting the goblin into two equally shocked halves."
Its up to Fahfrd's player to chime in "I stare down remorselessly at his corpse." (or more in character "I elbow the Mouser and shout 'Gray one did you see that'")
For the new players you can do the first part, and then ask them "Describe to us how your character reacts?"