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I was wondering as a Witch Character at 7th level, I am eligible for the Psuedodragon Familiar now. I was wondering why would I want to get rid of the fox for this when I get a +2 on reflex and supposedly nothing in the way of benefit for my character on getting the Psudeodragon then.
I barely get better attacks and the like but I would still get the same attack bonuses and AC as well as Hit Points.
What do you all think?
It really depends on the familiar. Imps are the best familiars to me if I am going to burn a feat. A psuedo dragon can be used as a scout since it can fly, but I don't know if it is worth a feat unless you can get creative with it.
Contributor, RPG Superstar 2010 Top 8
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The big advantage of the Pseudodragon over the fox (IMO at least) is that the Pseudodragon has reach with it's tail. It can strike enemies without having to enter their square, which makes delivering touch spells or hexes a lot safer and easier.
Pseudodragons also get Blindsense 60 ft., Spell Resistance 4 levels early, are immune to paralysis and sleep, have Telepathy out to 100 ft. (which can be pretty dang useful if you get creative with it), and a poison attack.
Whether all that is worth more to you than a +2 to Reflex saves depends on what you're using your familiar for.
Pseudodragons have their Sleep Sting which can be boosted by belts of CON which also boost the familiar`s Fort Save, though because that requires normal melee attacks it`s problematic compared to abilities which don`t rely on melee attacks. Mephit`s SLAs are nice, and the Silvanshee`s Lay of Hands uses your HD for it`s effect. Imps are good too.
Witches really have the most reason (vs. Sorcerors or Wizards or other Familar Classes) to NOT take an Improved Familiar because the base ones grant the Witch themself bonus spells known (besides bonus effects like to Saves, etc), but I would say the Improved Familiars can still offer alot of value. Besides the SLAs they can use, they often have an array of different senses and immunities which can be very useful (this is where I like the Pseudodragon).
The Improved Familiars can almost as a rule all freely manipulate objects, meaning UMD is viable, while within the base Familiars you are much more limited if you want to do that and may have to trade-off other benefits you might like (flight, side benefits) while with Improved Familiars you can have both.
+1 Benchak`s mention of Pseudodragon`s Reach, 0 reach Familiars sucks for delivering Touch Spells vs. non-willing targets, or even multiple friendly targets in different squares. Normal Reach also means they can take more AoOs with that Sleep stinger.
+1 to what Benchak said, but add in that Pseudodragons also have a listed Fly speed without using a spell. That saves a bit on spell slots if you didn't want to have to fly anyone else to use your Familiar to scout.
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Contributor, RPG Superstar 2010 Top 8
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Witches really have the most reason to NOT take an Improved Familiar because the base ones grant the Witch themself bonus spells known (besides bonus effects like to Saves, etc), but I would say the Improved Familiars can still offer alot of value.
Has this been verified? I was under the impression that, as Patron is now no longer tied to which familiar you take, you would still get your patron spells with an improved familiar.
brainfart... so, improved familiar is awesome for anybody who can take it!
one more idea for familiar use: when you are incapacitated they can carry you to safety/ another character who can heal you. something like ant haul is helpful here, though elementals, a silvanshee w/ heroic strength ability, and probably a few other improved familiars could do the job as-is.
they can also use things like dust of (dis)appearance, necklace of fireball, etc., not to mention healing potions. they can draw these from your person, but it can eventually make sense for them to have certain gear they normally carry all the time so they can use it when separated from you as well. (monkeys can do this also, but again there is trade-offs with other capacities)
i think to get the most out of a familiar, ESPECIALLY the improved ones who don`t offer the minor mechanical bonuses to YOU that the regular ones do, you really DO have to get somewhat creative in how to use it. but there are really just so many options to do so once you put your mind to it. and desperation is always the mother of invention!
Another great option for a Witch's Familiar is the Voidworm. It doesn't have reach, but it has a plethora of other goodies: blindsense 30ft, amorphous, constant Freedom of Movement, fast healing 2, acid immunity, resistance to shock and sonic, spell-like abilities, and flight 50ft(Perfect). It's a tough little bugger if you're worried about a squishy Familiar.
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Don't forget that many of the 7th caster level, alignment based familiars also have things like detect magic/good/evil at will, several really great spell like abilities, and some even let you use commune 6 times a week which in my experience is more generally useful to a party of adventurers than any metamagic, item creation, or even defensive feat I can think of.
Honestly, I think people generally take Improved Familiar because they think the new familiar is cool.
-Kle.
Not to many people use feats for fluff reasons. I don't think it is a bad thing, but I would not do so unless the DM were willing to tone the game down for my suboptimal yet flavorful feat selection.
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Step 1 - Buy tiny barding and Exotic Saddle for Psuedodragon
Step 2 - Foolishly acquire Rod of Wonder
Step 3 - Activate said Rod until your 12" tall (You might also become purple as a warning)
Step 4 - Be awesome Dragon-rider Witch/Wizard/Sorcerer
Step 5 - Realize that doesn't work anymore because the Rod of Wonder has been changed. (Darn it!) Okay, change of plans. Enlarge Person on familiar, reduce person on halfling (or gnome) self. Gogo!
More seriously though your familiar can be a very significant part of your character so it's fun to have more options. Plus your a caster class so you don't need very many feats to be effective.
Problem is suboptimal is highly subjective. For example, I was reading on the GiantInThePlayground site a campaign journal for Red Hand of Doom. It was ran by someone who was pretty convinced of the thought that blaster wizards are suboptimal. Well, of course the party wizard decides to go blaster. As the campaign progresses, the DM noticed the wizard was the MVP in most encounters. That particular campaign has lots of cannon fodder bad guys, so all those area effect spells were coming in pretty handy.
Not really saying Improved Familiar is all that great, but there might be a campaign out there it could work for.
Not to many people use feats for fluff reasons. I don't think it is a bad thing, but I would not do so unless the DM were willing to tone the game down for my suboptimal yet flavorful feat selection.Honestly, I think people generally take Improved Familiar because they think the new familiar is cool.
-Kle.
Actually I do this all the time. And frankly I see a lot of people do just this.
Hell the Raven familier I have currently (blew a feat on it) is really just there for comic releif, and has cost me a TON of cash from getting killed over and over. 200 a level in Gp adds up fast.
I do.Not to many people use feats for fluff reasons.Honestly, I think people generally take Improved Familiar because they think the new familiar is cool.
-Kle.
As do I. I'm considering taking Imp. Familiar for my Wizard in my friend's campaign at 7th just so I can have the Pseudodragon cause I've always wanted a Pseudodragon familiar. No reason for it, Because my Wizard will be a dual wand wielder, and I'll have pretty much all the feats I need except Maximize Spell. Fluff reasons are character reasons, not everything has to be about optimization
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I'd offer my opinion,
*puts on glasses*
but I'm unfamiliar with the options.
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Now lets discus some of the perks of having a familiar.
1. Familiar uses your caster level (class level) for all effects based on hit dice.
2. Familiars use the best of its or your skill ranks and base save throws with its class skills, as well as your BAB.
3. Familiars have 1/2 your total hit points.
So let me introduce you to my familiar:
Please note that my Silvanshee is an agathion -- all agathion have lay on hands as if they were a paladin of level equal to their hit dice -- an effect based on hit dice... which means while I'm a level 10 caster my agathion can lay on hands 6 times a day for 5d6 positive energy each time. He also has pounce, three natural attacks and the ability to boost his strength by +8 once per day, in addition to a 90 foot perfect fly speed, the spectral mist ability (a better gaseous form), DR, and some nice spell like abilities. Finally he has good communication skills (true speech and speak with animals) and his cha mod as a bonus on save throws as well as being a good scout in general.
For me this means I have get an:
HP battery
Scout
1/day combatant
Diplomat
Before I add in the stuff that him being my familiar gives me.
Now lets consider a pseudodragon:
The pseudodragon has the following:
Blindsense 60 feet
Several immunities
Telepathy 60 feet
Poison (another ability with a DC based on hit dice meaning based on your caster level -- at level 10 that DC is 15+the pseudodragon's con mod)
60 foot fly speed
So the pseudodragon makes a very good scout, and early warning system, as well has having a decent attack (and the ability to provide flank).
Imp anyone? Sure my last sorcerer loved his imp familiar (and later his imp companion):
Imps have the following:
Fast Healing 2 (hit your imp with vampiric touch -- he'll get better, or one of the damage splitting effects)
At will invisibility
See in Darkness
DR
Shape Change
Outsider proficiencies (martial weapons)
Poison
Give your imp a bow, or use him as a scout -- or both! He can take more than most familiars, and gets better on his own too.
If you are really nasty you could have a Cacodaemon. Once a day it can make a soul gem for you -- useful when trading with outsiders... or if you are a tiefling and are an outsider yourself you can simply use it to gain fast healing.
This is in addition to the following:
50 fly speed (perfect)
Change shape (small scorpion for the win)
Fast healing (again!)
At will Invisibility
Disease
Immunity to death effects
Telepathy
In addition to several decent spell like abiltiies
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This is just the simple stuff too. Improved familiars come with so much more and better abilities than normal familiars that it almost becomes a no brainer to get one if you can.
Speaking of -- Eldritch knights and Magus's can really benefit from improved familiars -- since they typically have better BAB than a wizard several of the more combative familiars can really help out more.
Finally all these abilities are on top of all the great stuff familiars can normally do already -- most of the familiars listed have hands and can speak meaning they can use magical items for you, among many other things.
Honestly, I think people generally take Improved Familiar because they think the new familiar is cool.
-Kle.
Or are familiar with the Vlad Taltos books....
I do.Not to many people use feats for fluff reasons.Honestly, I think people generally take Improved Familiar because they think the new familiar is cool.
-Kle.
That is good for those of you who have that luxury. I have played with both GM's that will and will not adjust the game for "fun" choices. I go between the two when I DM. If I am running a power game I let the players know up front, but sometimes it is just nice to play whatever you want to play.
That is good for those of you who have that luxury. I have played with both GM's that will and will not adjust the game for "fun" choices. I go between the two when I DM. If I am running a power game I let the players know up front, but sometimes it is just nice to play whatever you want to play.
See my above post -- I've always seen improved familiars as a means of increasing power -- not lowering it.
That is good for those of you who have that luxury. I have played with both GM's that will and will not adjust the game for "fun" choices. I go between the two when I DM. If I am running a power game I let the players know up front, but sometimes it is just nice to play whatever you want to play.I do.Not to many people use feats for fluff reasons.Honestly, I think people generally take Improved Familiar because they think the new familiar is cool.
-Kle.
It seems to me like the optimizer vs non-optimizer group on these forums is split more towards the optimizers. I don't understand why every character must be optimized. Sure I'll run the most badass PC on a table, but usually our characters are not optimized cause they don't have to be. I run usually non-optimal PCs but am known to help my players learn how to make Ultimate Badasses(tm). But usually our group doesn't optimize because we don't have to. I don't see why every game I seem to see people talking about are 90% optimized because the DM makes it so.
Picking an Improved Familiar is completely a Power Gamer move.
If you have flavor justifications for picking a particular one, more power to you.
The forums here are COMPLETELY skewed to optimizers, even if not everybody goes gonzo with it, with people who juggle ´builds´ and are aware of exact mechanical interactions. Why? People who don´t are much less likely to regularly post on forums like this. I do find it amusing when regular posters here assume that what is common on-line is common in PRPG players at large.
Picking an Improved Familiar is completely a Power Gamer move.
If you have flavor justifications for picking a particular one, more power to you.The forums here are COMPLETELY skewed to optimizers, even if not everybody goes gonzo with it, with people who juggle ´builds´ and are aware of exact mechanical interactions. Why? People who don´t are much less likely to regularly post on forums like this. I do find it amusing when regular posters here assume that what is common on-line is common in PRPG players at large.
How is it a completely Power Gamer move? Of all the players at my table or at the table I game at back home, none of the casters have ever taken Improved Familiar and they're heavy power gamers. Hell for that matter, no one's ever taken Leadership; and it's not because the DM banned it. Then again, most of my group back home call their builds OP but I could make a better build in my sleep.
I considered taking Improved Familiar for a Pseudodragon because it would make my Elf Wizard look awesome. I never use my familiars in combat because I'm afraid to lose them. This probably stems from my 3.5 play though, not wanting to lose a level and all that.
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It seems to me like the optimizer vs non-optimizer group on these forums is split more towards the optimizers. I don't understand why every character must be optimized. Sure I'll run the most badass PC on a table, but usually our characters are not optimized cause they don't have to be. I run usually non-optimal PCs but am known to help my players learn how to make Ultimate Badasses(tm). But usually our group doesn't optimize because we don't have to. I don't see why every game I seem to see people talking about are 90% optimized because the DM makes it so.
I too have occasionally fallen under that assumption but in time I have come to realize that it is a fallacy, if understandable one. It is the problem of the Role-Player, and the Roll-Player.
It is not that there are more optimizers on here, it is simply that the forum posters that ARE optimizers are more active on here, invest more raw thought, time and energy into them, and seem by comparison to be more insightful (If not necessarily more helpful).
I for one (As a Role-Player) would rather run/play in a game with minimal rules, combat, and dice rolls, simply for the fact that I enjoy the social and creative aspect of the game.
Roll-Players enjoy the tactical, in the grit feel of the gameplay when it comes to slaying the creature, building the kingdom, or getting elected lord of duchy. They don't care so much about the fine bits of talking things over, solving the mystery and the like. They would much rather just have the bard roll a Know (Nobility) check than personally interact with a few NPC's. They want to kill the dragon, and that is perfectly legitimate.
The real problem arises when players begin to care more about the power and capabilities of their character than the scope, story, or purpose of the game. They want to win the game.
On here, the mood and temper of the forums lends itself much more to post count arguing over semantics, comparing one bit of class ability versus another, and comparing spreadsheets of potential DPR and the likelihood that their spell will be saved against given certain CR parameters. I would much rather have a 3 hour discussion involving character background, and motive than any of those things, so I those of us that do not so much care for that bit simply relent and stay quiet, and let the powergamers, number crunchers, and balance worries do as they wish. You had better believe there are plenty of us around to help if you ever need to know why that crippled Half-Orc wants to seek revenge with the group of misfits that in fact caused his misfortune.
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I'm not sure it's entirely fair to say that there are more, or even more active, people here who care more about optimization than story and character, story and character are just much more subjective and difficult to discuss, and so optimization gets talked about by everyone who cares about it at all, even by people who care more about story and character.
I mean, I know I usually wind up talking about optimization here, while my Halfling melee Rogue with a high Charisma score seems to argue I don't let it control my choices in actual game play. Now, I made him as effective as I could within the bounds of his concept, and intend to continue to do so (Two-Weapon Fighting, here I come!), but that's of secondary importance to the concept.
I'm betting a fair number of optimizers on the boards do similar things for concept reasons, that just has absolutely nohing to do with a pure rules discussion like whether a particular Feat is actually good.
I considered taking Improved Familiar for a Pseudodragon because it would make my Elf Wizard look awesome. I never use my familiars in combat because I'm afraid to lose them. This probably stems from my 3.5 play though, not wanting to lose a level and all that.
Well as long as you realize a wizard loses little when a familiar goes down.
Even with my suggestions on some more combat oriented familiars those generally take a specific set up or forethought to use properly -- much like casting a spell it isn't something you just do on the fly without thinking about what you are doing and why first.
Improved familiars offer a lot of non-combat options as well. Can you power game without a familiar? Absolutely. Can you power game just as well if not possibly better with a familiar? Absolutely, even more so with an improved familiar.
interesting points
Part of it is also what you really can discuss over the internet. I enjoy talking characters a lot -- however it really only works in person (at least for me).
I can find people willing to devote a few minutes here or there on threads about different issues much easier than I can in person since when we meet in person we would rather play than discuss the rules in detail (unless it's a case that must be solved on due to a PC life being on the line or some such -- even then it is simply a quick, "what's the answer? Good move along.").
On the internet you can have a conversation that takes place over minutes, hours, days, weeks or years without losing any of the information involved -- which makes it great for legalese like technical discussions where each detail can be of large importance.
It seems to me like the optimizer vs non-optimizer group on these forums is split more towards the optimizers. I don't understand why every character must be optimized. Sure I'll run the most badass PC on a table, but usually our characters are not optimized cause they don't have to be. I run usually non-optimal PCs but am known to help my players learn how to make Ultimate Badasses(tm). But usually our group doesn't optimize because we don't have to. I don't see why every game I seem to see people talking about are 90% optimized because the DM makes it so.That is good for those of you who have that luxury. I have played with both GM's that will and will not adjust the game for "fun" choices. I go between the two when I DM. If I am running a power game I let the players know up front, but sometimes it is just nice to play whatever you want to play.I do.Not to many people use feats for fluff reasons.Honestly, I think people generally take Improved Familiar because they think the new familiar is cool.
-Kle.
I think the level of optimization needed varies by group. Everyone optimizes to some extent, even if you are only making sure you have the minimum ability scores needed to survive, and not the best ones.
A lot of it boils down to how hard an encounter is which is based on the builds, and DM tactics. If the DM is willing to fudge dice then you can take it easy, but if not it is nice to know how to make the character you need.As I said I generally switch it up. Sometimes the players want a grindfest, and sometimes they just want to play.
Because you can't hook a fox up to a hookah and get high.
My Conjurer loves his little Cacodaemon. Last week a Protection From Evil that he delivered from invisible saved our tank from getting gibbed by our TWF when the latter got possessed by a ghost. And the soul gems are going to come in handy for Planar Binding enticements.
Honestly, I think people generally take Improved Familiar because they think the new familiar is cool.
-Kle.
I've never taken a familiar for anything other than "does this look cool with my character and their persona". :)
We're starting up Carrion Crown soon - and my planned magus will take arcana: familiar at level 3. Oh yes! :D
I'm playing a Witch with the Trickery patron in a STAP group and I plan on taking Improved Familiar: Quasit.
Now, I'm definitely doing this mostly for "fluff" reasons but I'm sure with the new rules on familiar death in PF (over 3.5) that I'll certainly try to use my Quasit more so than the monkey I have now.
We're starting up Carrion Crown soon - and my planned magus will take arcana: familiar at level 3. Oh yes! :D
Yes I love my silvanshee familiar on my magus -- it has been extremely useful on a regular basis.
Lots of stuff about what they can do... ........Can learn feats
Wait? can they?
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Salt Mephits can be useful. Glitterdust 1/hour? Sure. It won't blind anything at that level, but it's still a good way to annoy invisible foes.
The Earth Mephit might be typoed. All of the other Mephits have one power usable 1/day and one power usable 1/hour, but the Earth Mephit's powers are both listed as 1/day. Soften earth and stone 1/hour would be *crazy* useful in a Kingmaker type campaign, where the PCs are building a community and could get great utility in building city walls, etc. out of the ability to work stone like clay. The enlarge person (self only) power is just friggin' useless (making the mephit easier to hit and less accurate) so that's probably the one that will get eratta-ed to be usable hourly. :)
Screw the pseudodragon take a Faerie dragon from the bonus bestiary. If your DM is nice he might allow you to customize its spell list :).
I kinda like the Lyrakian Azata. A cute little faerie flitting around, shouting "hey, listen!" and with a little dash of healing and commune... very cool. The Silvanshee is also a pretty awesome familiar - a cat that can fly? Oh, yes!
Non-Zero Reach (which the Pseudo-Dragon has with it´s tail) is also a really useful aspect...
If you want them to deliver spells to multiple targets (especially including allies).
Non-Zero Reach (which the Pseudo-Dragon has with it´s tail) is also a really useful aspect...
If you want them to deliver spells to multiple targets (especially including allies).
The Lyrakian should be possible to issue a Longspear, allowing it Reach as a Small creature.
Of course, that does not solve the issue for touch attacks...
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We have a Witch with a Mephit (air), and it just looks and feels right for her caster to have an "impish" familiar. While not overly powerful by any means, the little guy knows how to use Wands and is willing to ferry things around. Sometimes he'll be caught cheating at cards with the hired help, but that's to be expected with mephits.
(- on feats, i'd be hesitant. Familiars don't gain levels like animal followers and already have abilities built in)