How to Roleplay a 3 Charisma?


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I have a thing about bad charismas. It's not so much a dump stat as a preference towards unfriendly or unpleasant characters.

So I'm making a dwarf fighter DMPC. The other character is a changeling witch, and the adventure I'm working on involves a lot of nasty enemies. A pair of level 3s facing a rock troll, for instance.

I generally believe that DMPCs should be seen and not heard, so when I rolled a 5, I quickly put it in Charisma. Now, with a 3, are there any ideas how to play him? I'm thinking he'll hardly ever speak, but that seems minor for such an abysmal social repertoire.


He smells bad, has this bizzare aura about him that thows people off. When he smiles it reminds you of a coal mine just hitting a methane gas pocket.

Think of the dirtiest, drunkest hobo you have ever had the misfortune to come across and no matter what he asks of you you are compelled to say no.


One additional idea for charisma is that it represents "spark" or "drive". You might consider that a 3 Charisma character is unlikely to take initiative or attempt to impose his will on others. The character may be very submissive and "go with the flow" possibly even to the point of natural laziness.


A lot of people think a low charisma should mean the character is loud and annoying- but I think it's supposed to be the exact opposite. An uncharismatic person is just as likely to be ignored than anything else- they're the kind of person who you don't even notice because they never speak up or get themselves noticed. Your charisma is how well you're able to exert your will on the world around you- if it's low, you aren't able to do just that.


Alright, thanks for your help. I think a mixture of these ideas should do well.


Low charisma could be:

a mumbler (nobody can understand what he says so he's ignored)
a bigot/sexist (hates women/men/both, hates non-dwarves/dwarves, tells folk)
yes-man (doesn't ever have his own ideas, at least that he'll share)
phobic (generally functional but is afraid of common things, appears timid)
hyper (skips words in sentences, isn't worth listening to)

There's a lot you can do that isn't outright abrasive. Just think of personalities that you don't care about, don't want to bother with, or want to marginalize.

Heck, that gives me another idea.

elderly (A rambling storyteller who's got something to say about every circumstance but unfortunately it's never relevant under the current time, only a telling of how-it-was.)

Stereotypes can be massively useful for low-Cha characters. Without inspiring anger, you can still inspire "would you please SHUT UP!"


During social encounters you can always say exactly what is on your mind.

Say you are with the queen and she is ugly.. You make it known she is ugly.


Ævux wrote:

During social encounters you can always say exactly what is on your mind.

Say you are with the queen and she is ugly.. You make it known she is ugly.

Heh. Reminds me of that episode of Buffy, Earshot, where Buffy's reading minds, and Cordelia's saying exactly what she's thinking.

And yes, Buffy/Firefly/Joss Whedon/Dollhouse is stupid and/or a waste of time and/or historically inaccurate and/or kinda silly. Go away, Whedon haters!
:P


As a DMPC I would recommend Iwanbo from Rurouni Kenshin as an example...

Iwanbo

I can also see turning such a low charisma into the most brazen character in a group. Just make sure he shows it well, kinda like this...

"I am the ALMIGHTY DULGAR, ruler of the hammer and smasher of kings and countries!"


At the point where your charisma is 3 you probably wouldn't speak. If you did speak you probably would say short phrases.

You probably would where clothes and armor that covered your face and hands.

Giving a speech would be more frighting then fighting a dragon.


Kobold Cleaver wrote:

And yes, Buffy/Firefly/Joss Whedon/Dollhouse is stupid and/or a waste of time and/or historically inaccurate and/or kinda silly. Go away, Whedon haters!

:P

Know one in the know hates Joss Whedon.

Dark Archive

RPing a 3 Charisma?

Pick the most obnoxious online persona you can find on the trash-talkingest political / religious / hobbiest / etc. messageboard of your choice, and then act like that individual.


I think when you get down to 3, a lot of it will be intangibles. There will be something about this guy that makes you hate him, even if you can't put your finger on it, just like someone with a 22 Charisma can have that special something that makes you adore them even if they act like jerks from time to time.

Here's an idea -- maybe such horrifically low charisma is the result of a curse of some kind. So maybe the character is a normal guy who doesn't do or say anything unusual, but the effects of the curse make people hate his guts in spite of it. You can have fun by saying things like, "Rudric suggests it might be a good idea to get inside to take shelter from the rain, but something about it really rubs you the wrong way and you kind of want to belt him."


Gilbert Godfrey....


Autism with bad habits.


Scrogz wrote:
Gilbert Godfrey....

+1


My problem...why would the PCs keep Mr. 3 Cha around? I mean he has to be one of most boringest...unpleasent inviduals to be around.

So I don't know if I would over do it...he might find himself waking up in the inn tied to his bead with a not tha says,"We are sorry but your services are no longer required...have a nice life."


John Kretzer wrote:

My problem...why would the PCs keep Mr. 3 Cha around? I mean he has to be one of most boringest...unpleasent inviduals to be around.

So I don't know if I would over do it...he might find himself waking up in the inn tied to his bead with a not tha says,"We are sorry but your services are no longer required...have a nice life."

This is the real reason charisma should never be a dump stat.


John Kretzer wrote:

My problem...why would the PCs keep Mr. 3 Cha around? I mean he has to be one of most boringest...unpleasent inviduals to be around.

So I don't know if I would over do it...he might find himself waking up in the inn tied to his bead with a not tha says,"We are sorry but your services are no longer required...have a nice life."

And if he thinks anybody'll untie him, he's got another thing coming. :P

Sovereign Court

Yeah. Rather keep the guy with 3 int over the guy with 3 char. Mongo maybe stupid, but he's good company.


"Shaddup before I belt yah!"

just so we are clear this is an in-character reply to the question.....

Liberty's Edge

You can also consider the likely results of his skill checks :

- Strangers dislike him instantly and even supposed friends get cold real quick (Diplomacy)

- Any attempt he makes at lying just makes people even more suspicious of him. In fact, it could even happend when he is telling the truth (Bluff)

- He automatically triggers a flee or fight reflex in animals, even domesticated ones (Handle animal)

- Anyone can automatically recognize him, no matter how hard he pretends to be someone else (Disguise)

- Trying to impress people with his strength of personality is likely to be met with hilarity and scorn (Intimidate)

- Should he ever try to dance, sing or recitre poetry, he is only making a bigger fool of himself (Perform)

Have fun :-)


Kobold Cleaver wrote:
John Kretzer wrote:

My problem...why would the PCs keep Mr. 3 Cha around? I mean he has to be one of most boringest...unpleasent inviduals to be around.

So I don't know if I would over do it...he might find himself waking up in the inn tied to his bead with a not tha says,"We are sorry but your services are no longer required...have a nice life."

And if he thinks anybody'll untie him, he's got another thing coming. :P

Well mostly so he would leave.

I mean we are talking about somebody whose parents probably tied a steak around his neck so the family dog would play with them.


John Kretzer wrote:
Kobold Cleaver wrote:
John Kretzer wrote:

My problem...why would the PCs keep Mr. 3 Cha around? I mean he has to be one of most boringest...unpleasent inviduals to be around.

So I don't know if I would over do it...he might find himself waking up in the inn tied to his bead with a not tha says,"We are sorry but your services are no longer required...have a nice life."

And if he thinks anybody'll untie him, he's got another thing coming. :P

Well mostly so he would leave.

I mean we are talking about somebody whose parents probably tied a steak around his neck so the family dog would play with them.

Yes, I hear they tried to get him kidnapped by the fairies a few times, but the fey kept bringing him back home.

This guy has NO IDEA how to respond in society, as well as being obnoxious without even trying. He probably suffers from a serious speech impediment of some kind, doesn't relate to other people, and could be ugly to the point of deformity.

Sovereign Court

I had a Charisma 5 little half elf monk character. I rolled that low stat and wanted a monk, so...charisma it is!

I decided she was a street kid. She barely even spoke because she'd never had a normal childhood and most people would only curse at her as they kicked her out of their way (I also made her illiterate, though this wasn't called for in the rules) on the street. She had no manners, no cleanliness and understood none of the social niceties. She had little initiative as well, if her basic needs were met. She was not a leader. In fact, the party wizard, a bitter elf with noble blood, was considering making her his familiar...and she was fine with that, it gave her someone to follow and listen to...who didn't kick her too often.

She was clever enough, and canny, and physically rather suprisingly skilled (my other rolled stats were fair to good), but the charisma made her such a pariah that she would sometimes get kicked out of inns and sleep in alleys, and the party would occasionally catch her to dunk her in handy rain barrel when things got rank.


I don't believe that a low charisma can be looked at by its self, it should be seen in conjunction with the other mental stats

Low Cha, High Int, Avg Wis = Your Classic Nerd, gifted but lacking in socisl skills

Low Cha, Avr Int, High Wis = The person you should be paying attention to but don't, because they cannot get people to follow their ideas.

Low Cha, Avr Int, Avr Wis = The wallflower, they ust blend into the background.

Low Cha, Low Int, Avr Wis = People ignore then because they rarely say anything of importance, always making dumb statements.

Low Cha, Avr Int , Low Wis = Only opens their mouth to change feet.

Low Cha, Low Int, Low Wis = Always making cringeworth Faux-pas, never realises that their doing it, never understands why their being critisided for it.


I would play it as the character just being in the background, hardly noticed. Perhaps the product of some kind of dwarven educational experiment to make people in tune with the earth around them. Sometimes you're not even sure if he is conscious or if his mind if off communing with the stone.

If you RP him as annoying, super slovenly, or some other very undesirable traits, the players are going to want to leave him, get him killed, or just treat him as a joke. If you come up with a cool reason for why he sometimes gets forgotten that is interesting and perhaps even useful to the players, he is more likely to play a part in the story.


Bobcat Goldthwait

John Kretzer wrote:
My problem...why would the PCs keep Mr. 3 Cha around?

Im looking for a meat shield, not a diner date.

BSF swing axe good
He's the party Wizard, and his INT is as high as his CHA is low
He's a Kender, and we're gameruled to not kill him or boot him out


Kobold Cleaver wrote:
Reminds me of that episode of Buffy, Earshot, where Buffy's reading minds, and Cordelia's saying exactly what she's thinking.

YES! Such a good episode. Oh Cordelia, too bad the show went to comics for season 8.

I think that a lot of people who opt for fighters (aka pure combat utility with next to no roleplaying necessity) generally play what would be considered a low charisma character.

They wouldn't really voice their opinions, but they could definitely have them.

I definitely tend to think of Jess Door's character, though that would likely be matched with moderately low int and/or wis to boot.


Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber; Pathfinder Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber

A person with a Charisma of 3 is so introverted and creepy as to be dangerous.


From the PRD: "A character with a Charisma score of 0 is not able to exert himself in any way and is unconscious."

The way I'd interpret a 3 Cha based off of that is that on top of being forgettable, the character should be almost totally unmotivated... they should barely be bothered to get out of bed in the morning (not scared to or "can't", just... "meh"). They should almost never do anything on their own initiative and only participate because they are being dragged along, or feel obliged to for some reason, maybe externally motivated by loyalty, or a sense of duty.

One trap to avoid though, is that the low Cha score does not make the character a pushover, willpower falls under Wis. A high Wis low Cha character should be unmotivated, but extremely stubborn... they won't follow others unless they either want to or think it is a good idea. Low Cha low wis, you may as well just be rolling the dice for someone else's cohort.


I don't know. Dwarves have a Charisma penalty, and they're generally treated as highly motivated people. They're just not capable of motivating other people-- which actually makes sense, since other Dwarves typically don't need external motivation.

I like to make an analogy based on the physical ability scores. Wisdom is your mental Constitution and Charisma is your mental force. A Dwarf's dedication can carry him for years. A Gnome's enthusiasm can move someone else.

Low Charisma isn't poor manners and offensive behavior, it's a lack of vitality; etiquette is a function of the Diplomacy skill. The character with low Charisma doesn't fail at diplomacy because he offended the diplomat, he fails because the diplomat wants to deal with the person in charge-- the person with the Charisma. By comparison, the character with high Charisma may be uncultured, lacking in the Diplomacy skill, and may offend people with his rude behavior, but he commands respect and people listen to him.

People don't think much of people with low Charisma, when they bother to think about them at all. He doesn't think much of himself, so he hesitates to speak up and usually follows someone else. He doesn't connect with people, so they have no reason to love or fear him-- and he doesn't really expect them to. When he tries to reach out, he doesn't radiate sincerity, so his emotions seem artificial and creepy. His wrath is more embarrassing than terrifying, no matter how deadly he is. He doesn't fit, and if he's got any Wisdom at all, he knows it.

Most people seem to think that Intelligence is the difference between us and the animals. It isn't. It's Charisma. Charisma is the recognition that we are different from other creatures, that we are unique and special, and that we deserve respect. No other animal would put its head willingly in the lion's mouth, and the lion would kill any other animal that tried. The character with low Charisma isn't an individual, he's a collection of behaviors; he reacts to stimuli and does what he thinks he's supposed to do, but doesn't feel deeply about it.

Sovereign Court RPG Superstar 2009 Top 32

My take on a non-antisocial extremely low charisma would be a reclusive, shy, unable to express himself hermit. Doesn't speak much, and if he does, his whisper is more easily ignored than deciphered. Communicates with sad looks or their absence, never takes charge.

The "library girl" stereotype, in short, makes for a relatively playable low-cha character that avoids most of the grossout.


DMG wrote:


A person with high intelligence is curious, knowledgeable, and prone to use big words. A person with high intelligence but low wisdom may be smart but absentminded, or knowledgeably but lacking in common sense. A person with high intelligence but low charisma may be a know-it-all or a reclusive scholar. A person with a high intelligence but lacking in both wisdom and charisma may put his foot in his mouth often. A person with low intelligence mispronounces and misuses words, has trouble following directions, or fails to get the joke.

A person with high wisdom may be sensible, serene, "in tune," alert, or centered. A person with high wisdom but low intelligence may be alert, but simple. A person with high wisdom but low charisma knows enough to speak carefully, and may become an advisor rather than a leader. The wise person lacking in both intelligence and charisma is both uncouth and unsophisticated. A person with low wisdom may be rash, imprudent, irresponsible, or "out of it."

A person with high charisma may be attractive, striking, personable, and confident. A person with high charisma but low intelligence can usually pass himself off as knowledgeable, at least until a true expert shows up. A charismatic person with low wisdom may be popular, but he doesn't know who his real friends are. A charismatic person lacking in both intelligence and wisdom is likely to be shallow and unaware of others' feelings. A person with low charisma may be reserved, gruff, rude, fawning, or simply nondescript.

d20srd.org wrote:

Charisma measures a character’s force of personality, persuasiveness, personal magnetism, ability to lead, and physical attractiveness. This ability represents actual strength of personality, not merely how one is perceived by others in a social setting.

[...]
Intelligence 0 means that the character cannot think and is unconscious in a coma-like stupor, helpless.
Wisdom 0 means that the character is withdrawn into a deep sleep filled with nightmares, helpless.
Charisma 0 means that the character is withdrawn into a catatonic, coma-like stupor, helpless.

So a very low CHA PC could be withdrawn into itself. Or he could be obnoxious and not caring of what reaction he does provoke. Still self-centered. Mumbling and grumbling. Uncouth. Never inspiring. Grating on the others nerves. Offensive.

What are your other mental stats?

Do you know the Kiersey temperament sorter? Here's a thread about low CHA and the INTP Kiersey classification.

An excerpt from that thread: I agree [that] extraversion is the most important factor in charisma. It just makes sense. An introvert may be likeable and persuasive, but he can't get people to follow him on the merit of his personality alone.


Viktyr Korimir wrote:
Low Charisma isn't poor manners and offensive behavior, it's a lack of vitality; etiquette is a function of the Diplomacy skill. The character with low Charisma doesn't fail at diplomacy because he offended the diplomat, he fails because the diplomat wants to deal with the person in charge-- the person with the Charisma. By comparison, the character with high Charisma may be uncultured, lacking in the Diplomacy skill, and may offend people with his rude behavior, but he commands respect and people listen to him.

This seems pretty accurate. In my game, one of the characters was a bard. Upon meeting the countess of the realm in her castle keep for the first time, my character (a LN sorceress) followed proper etiquette to the best of her knowledge. The bard? One of the first things he did was flirt with her (the countess, not my character). Both had high charisma, so I think charisma is more a measure of personal confidence and gravitas than of manners and behaviour -- the bard would have to be pretty self-assured to hit on a woman well above him on the social ladder. Poor etiquette would strike me as being more common among low-charisma characters, though, since they may be less inclined to care what others think of them.

A character with very low charisma could be any of the following: Extremely shy and/or insecure, anxious to the point of being neurotic, a complete dullard who can't hold a conversation, or have a generally abrasive personality.


Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber; Pathfinder Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber

I love how the rules allow for so many different interpretations. Essentially, you can play your character however you want, and not be wrong. I think this is a positive design feature in the system.


Ravingdork wrote:
I love how the rules allow for so many different interpretations. Essentially, you can play your character however you want, and not be wrong. I think this is a positive design feature in the system.

Yes, but the GM decides how the campaign world reacts to you. If you think a 3 Charisma can mean standing quietly in the corner holding yourself and your GM thinks it means that people find you powerfully offensive no matter what you do, you've got a problem.


I would think someone with a CHA 3 would be disturbing to be around. A step beyond a person you love to hate. Doing things that are socially reprehensible. For example maybe after killing foes in combat she eats the eyes VERY loudly or constantly wets himself in battle while chortling like a baby (in a serious roleplaying setting, not a silly one). I know that seems unpleasant, but it gives the character a creepy factor that makes almost everyone and everything it comes across abhor it. The works of Lewis Carroll are full of peculiar things. I've met a few people who were really nice but socially as awkward as a duck with velcro feet...like this minus having a functional personality. For those of you that have played Vampire the Masquerade - maybe like a mentally very unstable person in a Malkavian mindset, but not necessarily evil.


Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber; Pathfinder Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
jocundthejolly wrote:
Ravingdork wrote:
I love how the rules allow for so many different interpretations. Essentially, you can play your character however you want, and not be wrong. I think this is a positive design feature in the system.
Yes, but the GM decides how the campaign world reacts to you. If you think a 3 Charisma can mean standing quietly in the corner holding yourself and your GM thinks it means that people find you powerfully offensive no matter what you do, you've got a problem.

Though you make a good point, such a disconnect is possible in any aspect of the rules. As with anything and everything else, such things should be made clear between a player and GM in advance of actual play.

In other words, just talk to your GM about what you think your Charisma means prior to playing the character. That way, you end up on the same page. If he agrees with your view of the character, than everything is hunkadory. If he disagrees, than at least you have a much better idea of what to expect and can react appropriately or make adjustments.


Kakarasa wrote:
I would think someone with a CHA 3 would be disturbing to be around. A step beyond a person you love to hate. Doing things that are socially reprehensible. For example maybe after killing foes in combat she eats the eyes VERY loudly or constantly wets himself in battle while chortling like a baby (in a serious roleplaying setting, not a silly one). I know that seems unpleasant, but it gives the character a creepy factor that makes almost everyone and everything it comes across abhor it. The works of Lewis Carroll are full of peculiar things. I've met a few people who were really nice but socially as awkward as a duck with velcro feet...like this minus having a functional personality. For those of you that have played Vampire the Masquerade - maybe like a mentally very unstable person in a Malkavian mindset, but not necessarily evil.

Okay, I see what you're saying... but would you want that guy in your party? This is a better description of a 3 CHA for an NPC, but there is a limit for a PC, in my opinion.


To Philip Nichols list of archetypes based on combinations of mental stats, I'd add extremely low Cha and Wis with extremely high Int -- the character would be an autistic savant, brilliant at one or more technical or academic subjects, but utterly clueless when it comes to human behavior and interaction. The most extreme case (probably with both Wis and Cha of 3 or less) would be a frank autist, like the title character in Rain Man; slightly higher Cha and/or Wis would be characteristc of someone with severe aspergers.

And, as I've given Rain Man as an example, here are a few other fictional characters to consider.

Low Cha, Avr Int, Low Wis: Napoleon Dynamite. Not a nerd, not a geek, just a dork. He's not necessarily stupid, but he's nowhere near as smart as he thinks he is, either.

Low Cha, Low Int, Average Wis, alignment CN: Jayne Cobb. His Cha and Int are probably just a bit below average, and his Wis might actually be a bit above -- he's got very good situational awareness and survival instincts, but he's extremely uncouth, and doesn't give much of a damn about anyone but himself. That's where alignment comes in -- the same stats with, say, a lawful neutral alignment would be a totally different character -- probably an intolerant, narrow-minded prig more concerned with following rules than with whether those rules are sensible or just.

Low Cha, High Int, High Wis: Vaarsuvius. People ought to listen to V, but V's such an insufferable know-it-all that they can't stand to acknowledge that he/she's right a lot of the time. Actually, the gender ambiguity probably doesn't help V's charisma any, either: almost everyone relates differently to other people depending on their (perceived) gender, and not being able to perceive another person's gender tends to make us feel nervous and off balance.


Talonne Hauk wrote:
Kakarasa wrote:
I would think someone with a CHA 3 would be disturbing to be around. A step beyond a person you love to hate. Doing things that are socially reprehensible. For example maybe after killing foes in combat she eats the eyes VERY loudly or constantly wets himself in battle while chortling like a baby (in a serious roleplaying setting, not a silly one). I know that seems unpleasant, but it gives the character a creepy factor that makes almost everyone and everything it comes across abhor it. The works of Lewis Carroll are full of peculiar things. I've met a few people who were really nice but socially as awkward as a duck with velcro feet...like this minus having a functional personality. For those of you that have played Vampire the Masquerade - maybe like a mentally very unstable person in a Malkavian mindset, but not necessarily evil.
Okay, I see what you're saying... but would you want that guy in your party? This is a better description of a 3 CHA for an NPC, but there is a limit for a PC, in my opinion.

The majority of the characters I play wouldn't want a character with 3 CHA in their party in general, but if the storyline circumstances forced them together then perhaps they would have to tolerate the 3 CHA char. If I was playing a character like that I'd probably mention often that I'm playing the character and try to be as even with the role as possible, but with such a low score some characters in game would probably wanna boot them out by day one.

I agree on the limit to the PC, but then again, I would rule in my game if you had a permanent score of 3 to any stat that the character would need to become a NPC and the player would need to build a new one as this isn't sustainable over the long term. It'd be like spending an adventure path as Smeagul/Gollum and having to try to contribute as a full member of the party. The more the GM compensates, the more off balanced it would become IMO.

I've played an arcane caster that was transformed into a raven. While the concept was neat, eventually I had to concede that such a low score isn't playable without either a massive handicap or lots of compensation over the long run.


Kavren Stark wrote:

To Philip Nichols list of archetypes based on combinations of mental stats, I'd add extremely low Cha and Wis with extremely high Int -- the character would be an autistic savant, brilliant at one or more technical or academic subjects, but utterly clueless when it comes to human behavior and interaction. The most extreme case (probably with both Wis and Cha of 3 or less) would be a frank autist, like the title character in Rain Man; slightly higher Cha and/or Wis would be characteristc of someone with severe aspergers.

And, as I've given Rain Man as an example, here are a few other fictional characters to consider.

Low Cha, Avr Int, Low Wis: Napoleon Dynamite. Not a nerd, not a geek, just a dork. He's not necessarily stupid, but he's nowhere near as smart as he thinks he is, either.

Low Cha, Low Int, Average Wis, alignment CN: Jayne Cobb. His Cha and Int are probably just a bit below average, and his Wis might actually be a bit above -- he's got very good situational awareness and survival instincts, but he's extremely uncouth, and doesn't give much of a damn about anyone but himself. That's where alignment comes in -- the same stats with, say, a lawful neutral alignment would be a totally different character -- probably an intolerant, narrow-minded prig more concerned with following rules than with whether those rules are sensible or just.

Low Cha, High Int, High Wis: Vaarsuvius. People ought to listen to V, but V's such an insufferable know-it-all that they can't stand to acknowledge that he/she's right a lot of the time. Actually, the gender ambiguity probably doesn't help V's charisma any, either: almost everyone relates differently to other people depending on their (perceived) gender, and not being able to perceive another person's gender tends to make us feel nervous and off balance.

If I high CHA allows you to convince people you know what you're talking about even when you don't, perhaps a low CHA causes people to discount what you say as being inaccurate, even when you're spot on. Even worse, perhaps when you are actually right, people a habit of doing the old bit "I have an idea, lets [paraphrasing of your idea]." That'd fit with the pushover factor as Jocund pointed out, perhaps ala 'Marty McFly's dad'?


Another way to look at what Charisma does for you is to look at how it affects the skills it affects. The Charisma linked skills are Bluff, Diplomacy, Disguise, Handle Animal, Intimidate, Perform, and Use Magic Device. Consider a 10th level character with 10 ranks in each of these skills and a 3 Charisma. That would give them a +6 to the skill, +9 if it's a class skill. That's not a bad bonus (better than it's possible to get as a 1st level character, for instance), but it's maybe half of where a Charisma-focused character would be.

The three main suggestions on the thread seem to be able to be grouped into: "Physically repellent", "Socially repellent", and "Lack of motivation/personality/force-of-will" (note that I use force-of-will here not as in 'strength of will' and how resistant you are to other's desires, which would be wisdom and will saves, but more in the sense of how you are about imposing your will on others). I'll denote these as (P), (S), and (L) respectively.

So how does the low charisma affect each of these skills?

  • Bluff: People find it harder to believe what you say, or else you're just more obvious when you lie. Maybe you're not forceful enough or self-confident enough with your lies (L). Maybe you're just so repulsive people don't want to believe anything you say (P,S). In either case, the skill ranks mean you can still convince people, but you have to overcome their initial bias.
  • Diplomacy: Same as bluff, effectively.
  • Disguise: This has always been a weird skill to have linked to Charisma (I consider the skill check more of being able to act the part than being able to create a disguise in the first place). Low charisma could mean that it's harder for you to disguise yourself successfully - maybe your face is so ugly that you can't look "normal" while disguised (P) or you're focusing on suppressing your quirks rather than acting natural (S). Maybe it's the lack of self-confidence to act like you belong while sneaking into the BBEG's lair (L). Again, you know what to do, and are capable of doing it, but you have to fight yourself (mentally or physically) to make it work.
  • Handle Animal: Animals don't like you. This would be an argument against physical ugliness, since AFAIK most animals aren't aware of that (P). On the other hand, lack of force-of-personality still fits. If you want to train a dog, you need to be able to make it listen to you. If it ignores you, it won't learn (L). Social awkwardness could go either way - depending on what the quirk was, it might or not affect how you interact with animals (standing too close and spitting as you talk would affect them, but staring at someone's breasts/crotch wouldn't bother them at all) (S).
  • Intimidate: Here's where it can get interesting. If you're ugly, you could certainly be more intimating than someone less so. So having a low charisma due to ugliness should help you, or at least not penalize you (P). Social repulsiveness would hurt your ability to be intimating, however. It's off-putting, but not intimidating (S). Lack of personality is the best fit, though. If you can't impose your will on others, or convince them that you're a credible threat, you're going to be hard pressed to intimidate them (L).
  • Perform: Lack of personality doesn't fit this one quite as well - just because you may be a wallflower, or unmotivated, doesn't mean you can't act/sing/play an instrument well. On the other hand, it may make it harder to act/sing/play in a way that other people connect with - mechanically perfect doesn't mean moving (L). Being physically ugly would affect Perform in much the same way as Bluff & Diplomacy - people don't like it as much, because they are repulsed by the musician (P). Socially, I'd liken it to Disguise - you're either still behaving boorishly, or you're working so hard to overcome it that you can't focus on your acting/singing/playing and seem stiff (S).
  • Use Magic Device: This is probably the best example of why force-of-personality is the best description for charisma. A magical device won't care how ugly or socially inept you are (P,S). But if you can't impose your will on it, it won't function for you (L).

    Having done that exercise (I didn't have any opinion before), I put myself firmly in the camp of "Charisma = motivation / ability to impose your will on others". Low charisma means that you can't or won't make others listen to you. You could be amazingly beautiful, but you don't act it or even actively hide it, so people don't see it. You don't necessarily let other people walk all over you (that'd be willpower/wisdom again), but you don't make any effort to stop them. You'd put up with being bullied, or ignored, or even idolized, but you wouldn't seek to change the situation - that's just the way things are and you have no motivation to change them.


  • On a tangent, I've been thinking for a while about having a house rule trait called "Scary S.O.B." or something of the sort that would allow a character with a negative charisma modifier to add the absolute value of that modifier to his Intimidate skill, at the price of doubling his Cha penalty to Diplomacy -- so, for example, a character with a charisma of 5 and the trait (for a modifier of -3) would add +3 to Intimidate, but take a -6 to diplomacy. It would make most sense for a low-charisma character along the lines of the aforementioned Jayne Cobb.


    Kavren Stark wrote:
    On a tangent, I've been thinking for a while about having a house rule trait called "Scary S.O.B." or something of the sort that would allow a character with a negative charisma modifier to add the absolute value of that modifier to his Intimidate skill, at the price of doubling his Cha penalty to Diplomacy -- so, for example, a character with a charisma of 5 and the trait (for a modifier of -3) would add +3 to Intimidate, but take a -6 to diplomacy. It would make most sense for a low-charisma character along the lines of the aforementioned Jayne Cobb.

    I agree. It makes no sense whatsoever that the hulking and brutal savage has a penalty to intimidate due to poor CHA.

    I would love if Paizo made an offcial rule on that. Usually a circumstantial bonus is made up... but it really doesn't solve the problem.


    A low charisma doesn't necessarily mean you are rude or gruff or whatever.. it just means you are poor at social interaction.

    Think of say,,. Data in StarTrek. His charisma is low. He isn't (often) rude or anything he just doesn't get social stuff. Its over his head.

    Your dwarf can be that way. If the rest of the group isn't made up of dwarves- center it on that. "Thats not how they'd do it back at the Clanhold".

    I would steer away from 'I am going to be rude because I have a low charisma" especially for an individual who is supposed to more or less permanently interact with the group. A rude NPC is fine- but the PC's get to leave that twit behind. Someone who is annoying and also a permanent fixture is a penalty to the party not a boon.

    Make him socially inept and fully aware of it. A wall flower- someone who knows what to do or say but not how to say it and so.. he just shuts up. Only talks when spoken to sounds like a good way to play Cha:3 And a DMPC. :)

    -S


    Xraal wrote:
    Kavren Stark wrote:
    On a tangent, I've been thinking for a while about having a house rule trait called "Scary S.O.B." or something of the sort that would allow a character with a negative charisma modifier to add the absolute value of that modifier to his Intimidate skill, at the price of doubling his Cha penalty to Diplomacy -- so, for example, a character with a charisma of 5 and the trait (for a modifier of -3) would add +3 to Intimidate, but take a -6 to diplomacy. It would make most sense for a low-charisma character along the lines of the aforementioned Jayne Cobb.

    I agree. It makes no sense whatsoever that the hulking and brutal savage has a penalty to intimidate due to poor CHA.

    I would love if Paizo made an offcial rule on that. Usually a circumstantial bonus is made up... but it really doesn't solve the problem.

    An official rule like this?

    Just because you're strong doesn't mean you know how to effectively use that to intimidate people. Watching someone go pick up a car is impressive, but having them stand in front of you, staring into your eyes, as they twist a steel bar into a pretzel is much more intimidating.

    Grand Lodge

    I actually have a dwarf fighter in PFS with a 7 cha. He's not quiet at all. In fact he is one of the most outspoken characters at the tables I play. It just so happens that he tends to be very outspoken, obnoxious, boisterious, and fun. Oh, and insatiably smelly as well. Just because he has a low cha doesn't mean he can't be personable. Your 3 could me he's just really really surly. If you read the Sellsword trilogoy by R.A. Salvatore I think the dwarf in the latter 2 books, Anthrogate, fit the low charisma but boisterious personality well. And he constantly rhymed which annoyed characters to no end. Just find something that may annoy a lot of people and play it up. Low charisma doesn't mean you have to be the strong silent type.


    UltimaGabe wrote:
    An uncharismatic person is just as likely to be ignored than anything else- they're the kind of person who you don't even notice because they never speak up or get themselves noticed. Your charisma is how well you're able to exert your will on the world around you- if it's low, you aren't able to do just that.

    So Just think of Ringo Starr while you play your character!

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