I've been looking into playing a witch recently and I just want to know: what role does the witch play exactly? The hexes seem AWESOME (especially cackle, misfortune/fortune, slumber and evil eye) and the fact that their at-will. Their spell list seems a bit odd, almost like a mish-mash of wizard/sorcerer, cleric, druid and bard rolled into one (not necessarily a bad thing, but a lot of spells I like aren't there). Is the witch a buffer? de-buffer? healer? damag-er? According to some threads/posts i've read people dismiss it as a misfit wizard without the power the wizard has. Others seem to praise it as a god of a class. I suppose this is a matter of opinion. Before I take up too much of your time I just want to ask.
:What role does the witch play? Or what is her niche in the party?
:Is it a class worth playing?
:is the class weak? powerful? or just right?
:how does it fair in comparison to a sorcerer? or a wizard? (since these are the other two classes similar to it, being full-casters, poor base attack bonus, and no armor)
if anyone has experience playing a Witch, help a fellow role-player out please?
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1) The witch is going to have a wizard/druid combo role. Good buffing, debuffing, SoD, and healing. Some of the disciplines suck, but others are very, very good.
2) The witch is the D&D version of the Crane Technique...if used correctly, it can be the most powerful class.
3) See #2.
4) It's not fair to compare them directly to the other arcane full-casters as their spell lists and and class abilities are so different.
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1) I will repeat myself until I am blue in the face. No player, regardless of class, should ever feel like they are getting their character shoved into a specific role. It is a mechanical and artificial way of looking at a character and will only serve to limit them.
2) Every class is worth playing at least once. If you asking personally, I VERY much enjoy the new class.
3) Like Joachim said, they can be as powerful or weak as you make them. Pathfinder did a great job of shoreing up the rules where exploits were common.
4) Don't compare classes that aren't archetypes of the same base class, it simply isn't fair.
Advice) Have fun with them, they are unique in that they are the only arcane caster that relies on some other being, in addition to a middleman to be granted their arcane powers. You can take this a being a devious thing, or maybe even just a benevolent gift, but I would make sure you don't ignore that part of the class. If I had to give you one piece of advice as far as making the character enjoyable, it have to be that you should come up with as interesting a personality and background for your familiar as your actual character because, keep in mind, they are your spellbook and could just as easily say "Eff this" and bail, leaving you without your spellbook. Replacing one isn't so easy either because they just took off with all those scrolls and copied spells you fed them too, they do have an intelligence independent from the PC themselves so keep that in mine.
A witch isn't going to out-wizard a wizard. That's obvious. The question is whether a wizard (or other combo) can out-witch a witch.
I haven't played one yet, but on the surface, it appears to me that if you're going for the witch thing, witch works better than wizard.
I do have serious concerns that a Sorcerer/Oracle->Mystic Theurge could out-witch a witch, though. You could basically gather all the best bits of both sides that the witch draws on, and do them better, with only really one ability score to worry about. It wouldn't compete until higher levels though, the intro to Mystic Theurge is rough, especially if you're going sorc/oracle instead of wiz/cleric.
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Well, I recently ran a witch to about lvl 8 or so in a King Maker campaign and I had a great time. It wasn't uncommon for me not to cast spells at all during combat. Personally I rarely blasted (I just don't think the spell list supports this role well) but found that my witch excelled at debuffing especially when I could get multiple "doses" of evil eye going on the same creature. Beyond evil eye, cackle and slumber were my most used hexes. I did have misfortune but found its mileage varied a lot as creatures generally didn't survive long enough to make it useful.
My 2 cents.
A character with the Witch class plays the party role of the Witch.
A character with the Witch class plays the party role of the Witch.
And witch role would that be? XD
A character with the Witch class plays the party role of the Witch.And witch role would that be? XD
Chase the snitch around the battlefield while the bludgers tank and the beaters DPS.
I like the wizard, I am not exactly sure what role they have in a party.. they are decent healers, buffers, debuffers and got a fair selection of magical powers slanted towards a theme you can pick.
Thematically it blows the wizard away, mechanically it is more likely to be the other way around, but the witch has some nifty hexes that tend to support a party that goes through a fair number of encounters generally better than a wizard does.
The witch excells at single-target debuffing/SoL/SoS (hexes). In addition, they can fill almost any caster role to some degree. They just can't do it as well as a focused cleric, druid, oracle, sorcerer, or wizard because their spell list is not as comprehensive as other primary casters. As LazarX mentions, they are almost like a bard in that they can do many things reasonably well without outshining a specialist.
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2) The witch is the D&D version of the Crane Technique...if used correctly, it can be the most powerful class.
This.
The Witch's "role" (aside from Harry Potter snark) can vary from character to character.
I've seen Melee Witches, Archer Witches, Healer Witches, SoD Witches, "God" Witches (summons, clouds, battlefield control out the wazoo), and straight up Blaster Witches all work successfully.
In fact, we're starting up an AoW game soon with the provision: Everyone plays a Witch, everyone takes Coven. Seems like a fun challenge to me.
Depending on the patron, the class can serve pretty much any "role" at the table, but its true strength lies in its adaptability.
Want to play the classic "Mad Scientist" style Arcanist, but don't like Wizard or Sorcerer for it? Witch can be brewing potions & scribing scrolls from first level, potentially super fast and at 45% of market value.
Want a SoD specialist with the confidence to land those knockout shots when it really counts? Ability Focus: Evil Eye, Misfortune, Cackle, and Spell Focus: (whichever school you want)...target must now save at -2, with your DC already increased, and take the worse of two rolls. Throw Persistent Spell into the mix and boom, instant SoD master.
Finally, if you want to play a healer, but also want Arcane magic and a familiar, Witch is the class for you. Cure X wounds spells, the healing hex, cauldron, and scribe scroll means, at level 2, you are pretty much as good as a Cleric for healbot duties. Well, single target healing, anyways.
Thanks everyone for your feedback. You really answered every question I had regarding the Witch.
I've seen Melee Witches, Archer Witches, Healer Witches, SoD Witches, "God" Witches (summons, clouds, battlefield control out the wazoo), and straight up Blaster Witches all work successfully.
How would a Blaster Witch work? Witches just don't get many blast spells.
I'm not doubting you. But I'm too new to Pathfinder to have the right set of feats and strategies pop into mind.
Hm. I suppose I should ask about the Archer Witch also. What feats and tactics besides Point Blank, Precise, Focused, and Rapid Shot were used? I just can't image a half-BAB class making a significant contribution to combat with a bow.
Want to play the classic "Mad Scientist" style Arcanist, but don't like Wizard or Sorcerer for it? Witch can be brewing potions & scribing scrolls from first level, potentially super fast and at 45% of market value.
Just don't take the mouse familiar! Every night while you're sleeping he'd be TRYING TO TAKE OVER THE WORLD!
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I've seen Melee Witches, Archer Witches, Healer Witches, SoD Witches, "God" Witches (summons, clouds, battlefield control out the wazoo), and straight up Blaster Witches all work successfully.How would a Blaster Witch work? Witches just don't get many blast spells.
I'm not doubting you. But I'm too new to Pathfinder to have the right set of feats and strategies pop into mind.
Hm. I suppose I should ask about the Archer Witch also. What feats and tactics besides Point Blank, Precise, Focused, and Rapid Shot were used? I just can't image a half-BAB class making a significant contribution to combat with a bow.
Blaster witch: Elements patron; take the Magical Talent character trait, the Arcane Talent feat, and/or the Pyromaniac alternate gnome racial trait for damaging cantrips/SLAs; all of the inflict spells (with Reach Spell or spectral hand), burning hands, burning gaze, lightning bolt, pain strike, vampiric touch (with Reach Spell or spectral hand), ice storm, cloudkill, pain strike (mass), cone of cold, slay living, chain lightning, harm (with Reach Spell or spectral hand), destruction, horrid wilting, stormbolts, power word kill, storm of vengeance, wail of the banshee.
Archer witch: Elf, half-elf with alternate racial trait Ancestral Arms, or human with Martial Weapon as their bonus feat; Agility or Strength domain (Agility gives cat's grace and haste; Strength gives divine favor/divine power and greater magic weapon); it may be worth multiclassing 1-2 levels of sorcerer (for gravity bow and true strike; Arcane bloodline would allow you to stack sorcerer levels with witch levels for your familiar's abilities); possible prestige class into arcane archer and/or eldritch knight (you give up the higher level patron bonus spells, though). One possible character could be elf witch (Strength) 6/fighter 1/sorcerer (Arcane) 1/eldritch knight 2/arcane archer 2; BAB +8, spell progression as an 8th level witch (CL 10 with the Magical Knack trait) and a 1st level sorcerer; with divine favor, heroism, gravity bow, and true strike, not having full BAB is a small price to pay IMO.
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What I like about the witch is she can cure an entire army and never run out of spells (well one per target per day, and it takes time but whatever, it is still impressive, not even a cleric can do that!)
In my opinion one of the most powerful roles for the witch is as an arcane super sniper -- only she doesn't target your HP -- she just makes you wish she did. She also does rather well at group debuffing too.
When the witch has the time and focus she can literally debuff an enemy to death, without eating too far into her spells for the day.
The witch has poor defensive spell choices, but good choices for keeping her party on their feet and going. If you want information the witch is great at getting it, with good access to lots of very nice divination spells and abilities.
The witch's spell list also has limited, but strong options for battle field control, summoning, and healing options. Buffing options are a bit weaker, but dependent on which patron you have can be significant. Enchantments are few but potent, and surprisingly so are travel spells (such as fly, phantom steed, etc).
Finally there are several damaging spells on the witch's list (though not as many as the wizard has access too) -- most of these are versatile with effects that double as battle field control or debuffing, while a few of them are of very limited worth. Unfortunately the witch is a bit little on other general utility spells -- but not completely lacking... suffix to say there will be times when you'll go to try and find a spell and be surprised it isn't on the list.
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I have played a witch up to level 15 -- I often ended the day with spells left over simply because I was too use to playing a wizard and simply couldn't fully utilize my spell list as a witch yet. My Hexes means several times I wouldn't "waste" a spell my first couple of rounds instead relying on the Hexes to soften up a target.
If you are a team player the witch feels in nicely to help your heavy hitters keep hitting, and keeping them from being hit via debuffing actual threats.
IF you have a witch and a bard in the same party be warned -- the combination of the witch's debuffing capabilities with the bard's buffing capabilities can severally inflate the party's abilities. Do under any circumstances try to use a single BBEG against a party with both a witch and a bard in it -- the party will roll over a BBEG that is going solo so fast you won't understand what happened.
I do have serious concerns that a Sorcerer/Oracle->Mystic Theurge could out-witch a witch, though. You could basically gather all the best bits of both sides that the witch draws on, and do them better, with only really one ability score to worry about. It wouldn't compete until higher levels though, the intro to Mystic Theurge is rough, especially if you're going sorc/oracle instead of wiz/cleric.
Speaking from playing both:
You can take the witch-wannabe-mystic theurge and throw it in the grave -- it simply doesn't compare to what the witch can and will do.
Even at higher level the access to the hexes (with a better save throw DC, power level, and ability choices), the second set of actions, and an evolving spell list (meaning the witch can change each day) pretty much leaves the pretty boy far behind.
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I've seen Melee Witches, Archer Witches, Healer Witches, SoD Witches, "God" Witches (summons, clouds, battlefield control out the wazoo), and straight up Blaster Witches all work successfully.How would a Blaster Witch work? Witches just don't get many blast spells.
I'm not doubting you. But I'm too new to Pathfinder to have the right set of feats and strategies pop into mind.
Hm. I suppose I should ask about the Archer Witch also. What feats and tactics besides Point Blank, Precise, Focused, and Rapid Shot were used? I just can't image a half-BAB class making a significant contribution to combat with a bow.
Blaster witch: Elements patron; take the Magical Talent character trait, the Arcane Talent feat, and/or the Pyromaniac alternate gnome racial trait for damaging cantrips/SLAs; all of the inflict spells (with Reach Spell or spectral hand), burning hands, burning gaze, lightning bolt, pain strike, vampiric touch (with Reach Spell or spectral hand), ice storm, cloudkill, pain strike (mass), cone of cold, slay living, chain lightning, harm (with Reach Spell or spectral hand), destruction, horrid wilting, stormbolts, power word kill, storm of vengeance, wail of the banshee.
Archer witch: Elf, half-elf with alternate racial trait Ancestral Arms, or human with Martial Weapon as their bonus feat; Agility or Strength domain (Agility gives cat's grace and haste; Strength gives divine favor/divine power and greater magic weapon); it may be worth multiclassing 1-2 levels of sorcerer (for gravity bow and true strike; Arcane bloodline would allow you to stack sorcerer levels with witch levels for your familiar's abilities); possible prestige class into arcane archer and/or eldritch knight (you give up the higher level patron bonus spells, though)....
What he said.
I will have more specific details come Friday - that's when we begin our experimental AoW "All Witches" game.
Also note: Coven allows for serious up-gunning of your spells, especially if you have multiple Coven Witches assisting you.
Coven (Ex): The witch counts as a hag for the purpose of joining a hag’s coven. The coven must contain at least one hag. In addition, whenever the witch with this hex is within 30 feet of another witch with this hex, she can use the aid another action to grant a +1 bonus to the other witch’s caster level for 1 round. This bonus applies to the witch’s spells and all of her hexes.
Combine the increase of CL with the ridiculous amount of spells each PC will know (5 witches * 2 free spells / level = 10 spells known every level), and I expect we will be pretty well set for the meatgrinder that is AoW.
I believe some of the PC's may end up multiclassing a bit...Rogue Witch may well take Rogue/Arcane Trickster, Melee Witch may go Eldritch Knight, Archer Witch may go Arcane Archer. Its an interesting proposition, any way you slice it.
So where are you getting the actual hag for your all witches game?
Witch: debuffer of the year, all years.
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Witch: debuffer of the year, all years.
Except you forgot the year that it was a sweep by the multiclassed Court Bard/Witch. He won by badmouthing all of the other entrants and then draining them of their life force when they were too busy worrying about their outfits.
There was an uprising shortly thereafter where the runner-up called in a few favored and had him turned to stone upon his claiming of the trophy. Turned him to stone... such a shame.
Don't know if it's been mentioned yet (have to run and didn't finish reading the thread yet hehe), but the shiny new Arcane Blast feat in the APG looks like it could work very well for blasty-Witches (maybe not the most min-max'd thing possible, but sounds fun & handy in a pinch). :)
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Arcane Blast is a little rubbish really, since it deals damage based off the spell slot's spell level, not the character's caster level. It's hard to see anyone taking it for anything other than an emergency 'spontaneous blast' for when they're down to nothing by prepared utility spells or something... the rest of the time an actual spell is almost always going to be a better use of that spell slot.
But Witches can be all blasty just by taking the elemental patron. At caster level 10 (minimum for the Arcane Blast feat) that means you could either Arcane Blast a 3rd level spell slot for 5d6 damage to one target... or cast a Fireball for 10d6 to a 20ft radius...
Waiter, put me down for one Fireball to go please! ;)
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Well, the All-Witch AoW team seemed to go fairly well...
We just started Whispering Cairn with all new Level 1 Witches. SPOILERS
BELOW FOR AoW 1: THE WHISPERING CAIRN
Rolling for stats generated some pretty generous point buy equivalents...
We have:
Myself, Elf "Healer" Witch with the Healing Hex, Viper familiar, Plague patron. Very high stats (lowest is my Cha at 12) due to lucky dice.
Human "Archer" Witch, with Ward Hex, unknown familiar, unknown patron. Heirloom Weapon: Composite Longbow makes a LOT of difference at 1st level.
Human "Blaster" Witch, with Healing Hex, Raven familiar, Elements patron. Our savior when encountering swarms.
Half-orc "Melee" Witch, with Cauldron Hex, Monkey familiar, Strength patron. Our "Tank"
Halfling "Rogue" Witch, with Disguise Hex, Compsagnathus familiar, Deception (I believe) Patron. Our stealthy, searchy, rogue-replacement for now.
Moving down the hall, searching as we go My Elf has a total of +10 Perception, Low-Light Vision, and a Waterproofed Bullseye Lantern. At least 3 other characters have Dancing Lights or Light as cantrips prepared. We are not hurting for any of the things adventurers may need in a dungeon, such as rope, oil, pitons, climbing kits, reach weapons, 10' poles, ranged weapons, and food.
Our first encounter with some wolves progressed fairly easily. This is likely due to our extensive "Adventurer Preparation" and could have been achieved with any group of PC's. Longspears readied to receive a charge, Enlarge Person on Melee Witch, and readied ranged attacks from Archer & Rogue (arrow & sling bullets, respectively) prevented anyone from being seriously hurt. Melee took a bit of damage, but we easily patched him up via Healing Hex.
Much of the area provided similar challenges, until the spinning sarcophagus room and its beetle swarms. Here, after figuring out about the spinning dais and its role in opening the chambers, we got our first near-death experience. The acidbeetle swarm & bombardier beetle nearly ended Blaster's career early.
Swarmed by the acid beetles, Blaster managed to get one Burning Hands off before falling unconscious. I brought him back to his feet, just in time to see him go down again, nommed on by beetles. Archer had also prepared a Burning Hands, which was used to good effect, despite toasting Blaster as well.
Finally, Rogue managed to land a flask of oil on the swarm before Blaster got to go again. I patched him up via Hero Point casting Cure Light Wounds again, and he knocked the swarm out with his second (and last) Burning Hands spell. We got a Pearl of Power and some Cure Light Wounds potions (pearl used to regain Burning Hands immediately), and proceeded to search/open all the remaining chambers.
We didn't fall for the gust of wind - knock you off a 40' cliff trap, nor did any of us feel inclined to climb into a cylindrical chamber filled with crushed up bones. In hindsight, those were both good decisions.
The second beetle room went much smoother - Rogue managed to land a flask of oil right off the bat, and Blaster Nat-20/Nat-20'd an Alchemist Fire to end the threat.
Before we stopped for the night, we had managed to clear out an underwater cavern, recover both missing Rainbow Lanterns, kill an undead critter, kill a water elemental, and find a stone-blocked chamber. After resting in the sarcophagus room, we proceeded to the stone-blocked chamber, tipped the stone over, and triggered some kind of gas-discharge trap in that room.
We ended there for the night.
Notes:
Level 1 is tough without any armor-wearing and big-weapon wielding brutes. Melee witch, with his greataxe and potions, really put a hurting on a few critters (killing both the Ghoul and Water Elemental with minimal assistance from Blaster via Acid Splash), while the rest of us nickel-and-dime'd enemies with our slings, longspears, and similar.
Heirloom Weapon means a dedicated archer can be doling out 1d8+Str right from the start. Our Archer was routinely hitting for 1d8+4 (+2 Str, +1 Point Blank Shot, +1 Trait from Heirloom Weapon). Once my PC gets his hands on a similar weapon, we'll be doing pretty well for ranged attacks.
Cantrips can rock. Dancing Lights on 3 PC's meant we could leave specific lit spots (like green lights in a 4-square pattern at the entrance to the underwater room, providing a definite "go here to get out" message to Melee). When combined with our other light sources, we didn't have to worry about shadowy illumination, getting lost in the dark, or anything similar.
Healing Hex on 2 PC's, as well as my Cure Light Wounds spells, allowed us to proceed, despite having about 5 combat encounters in a single day (Wolves, Beetles, Elemental, Ghoul, More Beetles) and some damaging trap stuff (exploding sarcophagus when we forced it open).
Hero Points, like usual, meant the difference between dead PC's and just barely successful PC's. We started with 3 (1/2 lvl +3, rounded down), and will be continuing as such, resetting them when we level.
Finally, since we didn't have to spend much GP on weapons & armor, we had almost all the necessary stuff to adventure in a generally safe manner. At one point, we had to climb a 40' wall, and 4 of us pulled out hemp rope, knotted for climbing with grappling hooks attached. Prepared adventurers are alive adventurers, after all. Having plenty of oil and fire sources allowed us to deal with those swarms, as well (I started w/ 5 flasks, Rogue with 4, and Blaster with 10).
We will see just how the "Power of the Witch" plays out in further adventuring. Will be starting a Campaign Journal with this information re-posted, if you're interested in following along.
Arcane Blast is a little rubbish really, since it deals damage based off the spell slot's spell level, not the character's caster level. It's hard to see anyone taking it for anything
All of this. Horrible feat.
We will see just how the "Power of the Witch" plays out in further adventuring. Will be starting a Campaign Journal with this information re-posted, if you're interested in following along.
Very interested.
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We will see just how the "Power of the Witch" plays out in further adventuring. Will be starting a Campaign Journal with this information re-posted, if you're interested in following along.Very interested.
Campaign Journal is up & running, available HERE
Anyone who wants to post, feel free! Please refrain from spoiling anything we haven't come across yet, thanks.