Myself and a friend have been challenged to a death match by our GM. We don't have a lot of information, but we know that we're invading some kind of kobold dungeon. So my friend has been doing the majority of the preparations.
So far, we have four 6th level characters:
Cleric, Rogue, Magus, and Druid. (I may be able to convince him to change this selection, so if you think this line up sucks, let me know.)
I'm not sure how they're built exactly, but I do know that they're running some teamwork feats, namely outflank and shielded caster.
My task is to make the fifth 6th level character to round out the group.
I was hoping for some suggestions as to how I could try to cover whatever weaknesses are potentially in this group. Some gaps I notice: we don't really have a tank in the truest sense. We're also lacking in the arcane department.
Builds I've been thinking of using:
- Diviner Wizard (Maybe get some insight on the horrors in store for us? Our GM has outright stated he wants to kill us.)
- Human Sorcerer (Sadly, I think a sorcerer might be better in this one shot campaign, especially with the APG human variant bonus spell thing.)
- Paladin (Last I checked, kobolds are evil. So this could fill the role of a tank and have plenty of other perks to wipe the floor with these wimpy kobolds)
- Zen Archer Monk (A 6th level ZAM? It doesn't exactly cover the weaknesses stated, but this seemed too crazy to pass up. I think I have 12 feats to work with.)
This is more or less a one time event, so keep that in mind. The build should be as optimal as 6th level character can be without worrying about how optimal the character will be on the following levels.
Oh, a couple of other notes:
- Our characters each have 16,000 to spend.
- Our method of determining stats is pretty ridiculous. It's more or less come up with whatever you want so long as, unmodified by anything, the sum total of our ability bonuses don't exceed +8.
For example, I can choose these numbers:
18 (+4)
17 (+3)
17 (+3)
17 (+3)
7 (-2)
5 (-3)
For +8 total
Let's arrange these for my Zen archer monk:
Str 17 Dex 17 Con 17 Int 7 Wis 18 Cha 5
Apply aging:
Str 16 Dex 16 Con 16 Int 8 Wis 19 Cha 6
Add Racial and 4th level bonus stat:
Str 16 Dex 16 Con 16 Int 8 Wis 22 Cha 6
Apply a +2 stat belt and headband:
Str 16 Dex 18 Con 16 Int 8 Wis 24 Cha 6
...yeah. Anyway, that's what I have to work with.
Since you know what the enemies are (kobolds) Ranger would be fantastic I think. Take favored enemy humanoids(kobolds).
You need someone to tank. The cleric could if he picks up heavy armor, but he does not make a great tank.
I would go with a paladin (can heal himself and others), or melee monk (to have great touch AC)
Or revamp completely. If the DM is saying he plans to kill you all off, go with an all cleric party. Spread the domains around to get the different functionality.
Spend most of the gold on potions of mage utility (haste), and necklaces of fireballs for creature sweeper.
with five 6th level clerics if they all channel energy once when you get a second to rest that is 15d6 healing in one round.
Have a good charisma on two of them, and pick up use magic device and buy wands fo magic missle (7th level caster) for 5,250gp. With an 20 charisma, feat and trait you UMD can be 15 so you can use the wand most of the time.
Heck go with racial typing and have a cleric of: dwaven (heavy armor tank), elf (wand user), human (bastard sword and medium armor), halfing (travel domain and healing), gnome (trickery domain)
Honestly, you should probably consider a fighter, barbarian, or cavalier or other full BAB class. From the choices you listed above, I'd get the paladin.
+1
Paladin was the first thing that came to my mind, even before I saw your list. The other thought is maybe a Skirmisher Ranger, with kobolds as a favored enemy.
Since you know what the enemies are (kobolds) Ranger would be fantastic I think. Take favored enemy humanoids(kobolds).
That's definitely a good point. Hadn't thought of that. :3
@Wolfsnap Yeah, with a team of mid BAB characters thus far, a full BAB is something we're lacking. But I think Paladin (Kobolds are evil!) or Ranger (F.E. Kobolds) would work better for our group.
Or throw the DM a total curve ball. 5 witches!
Each would need the following hexes: cackle, evil eye, slumber, then any other have a couple with misfortune.
If he throws some BBEG at the party you will pwn it in round 1, round 2 at the latest (as long as it is not immune to sleep)
3 witches evil eye (even if the creature makes the saves it is at -6 for 1 round), then hit it with misfortune then slumber.
Still up? Next round cackle 3 other evil eyes so now at -12 to saves differnent witches try misfortune and slumber.
Still up??? wow lucky creature, round 3 repeat for a -18 will save!
Or you can just 1st round all evil eye (-10 will save)
round 2: cackle evil eye again 4 witches (-18 will save) slumber!
round 3 coup de gras.
Oh and they can do that all day long!
You need someone to tank. The cleric could if he picks up heavy armor, but he does not make a great tank.
I would go with a paladin (can heal himself and others), or melee monk (to have great touch AC)
Or revamp completely. If the DM is saying he plans to kill you all off, go with an all cleric party. Spread the domains around to get the different functionality.
Spend most of the gold on potions of mage utility (haste), and necklaces of fireballs for creature sweeper.
with five 6th level clerics if they all channel energy once when you get a second to rest that is 15d6 healing in one round.
Have a good charisma on two of them, and pick up use magic device and buy wands fo magic missle (7th level caster) for 5,250gp. With an 20 charisma, feat and trait you UMD can be 15 so you can use the wand most of the time.
Heck go with racial typing and have a cleric of: dwaven (heavy armor tank), elf (wand user), human (bastard sword and medium armor), halfing (travel domain and healing), gnome (trickery domain)
Lol, an all cleric party? I suppose it could work. I'll have to run these ideas past my friend. Although I imagine a rogue is a must in this dungeon, as the only thing my GM likes more than kobolds is kobolds that make traps.
Thinking on ranger go with:
3 human rangers (FE kobold, archery based, point blank, deadly aim, percise, rapid, manyshot) 3 shots a round (one being a double arrow) all at +4 to hit and damage
1 dwarven cleric (heavy armor, dwarven armor, heavy shield, healing domain, protection domain) Front line tank
1 gnome bard (Master Performer out of faction guide, extra song, extra song) +3 inspire courage (if your DM allows 3.5 books and spells you can easily get that to +5 inspire courage)
Put the dwarf and bard as tanks
Bard sings the elven rangers vs the kobolds are at +7 to hit and +7 to damage.
Assuming 20 dex, and 16 str, +1 composite bows (+3 str).
+1 comp long bow: +17/+17/+12 1d8+11 (first shot 2d8+11)
+1 comp long bow deadly aim: +15/+15/+10 1d8+15 (first shot 2d8+15)
So you have 6 shots around with +15 to hit doing 1d8+15 damage per shot!
Average 130 damage per round from just there first couple attacks of the 3 rangers!
Oh and they do not have to move.
Edit a few items for the rangers: add boots of speed, and some 1st level potions 6 gravity bow and 6 reduce persons.
drinknig both changes the damage of the bow to 2d6 and gives +2 to hit.
With the boots of speed on, both potions, favored enemy, song, deadly aim you are looking
+1 comp longbow: +18/+18/+18/+13 2d6+15 (first shot being 4d6+15)
so 9 shots at +18 to hit is pretty much auto hit at 6th level module. that is 24d6+135 damage a round (can do this 10 rounds a day) average damage output per round is 219.
Heck ditch the cleric add another ranger, but keep the bard (healer with wands).
that's 12 shots at +18 averaging out to a damage per round of 292 damage!
If all shots hit you are looking at 392 average damage per round!
Lol, an all cleric party? I suppose it could work. I'll have to run these ideas past my friend. Although I imagine a rogue is a must in this dungeon, as the only thing my GM likes more than kobolds is kobolds that make traps.
Neah, all the healing you would have is insane so you can soak up the damage with no problem (buy wands of cure light too only 750 each)
as for locked doors and adamantine weapon or two will slice through whatever door or wall you need to go through.
oh go all dwarven clerics so you do not need light!
Another benefit to the all cleric team, is they can alternate having find traps up. Automatic checks if they get close to traps and a bonus of 1/2 CL for perception to notice them.
something like this you really want to stick it to the DM. When a DM makes statements like I want to kill you all and its a 1 off, some nasty things are to be awaiting you all. the dungeon will be inherently unfair (so the DM may be more willing to let stuff fly that he normally would not. try to take advantage of it).
Most important - rules of "fair play" are out the window so here is what i would do:
Character 1 - Human Cleric 5/Sorceror 1 - take craft wand, also have the wizard below craft him a wand of magic missiles CL 5. take extra channel as well.
Character 2 - Elf Wizard 5/ Monk 1 (drop chr to 3 and start at old age)
craft wand - scribe scroll - extend spell
Important Craft wands (mage armor cl 1, magic missile cl 5 x2, heroism cl 5, protection from arrows cl 3)
Craft Scrolls - Exteded resist energy (fire) at least CL 4
Character 3 - Human - Two-weapon fighter 5 (APG)/Ranger 1
favored enemy Kobold - make sure one of his weapons is a kobold bane weapon (improved buckler defense would be awesome if allowed)
Character 4 - Dwarf or Half Orc - Fighter 3/ Cleric 3 - feats Endurace, Die Hard, Extra Channel
Make sure he has an Adamantine Weapon
Character 5 - any race - Rogue 3/ Magus 3 (if not Magus - Sorceror 3)
Pool Group Money for crafting, Buy Wand of magic Vestment CL 12. it runs 27000 but everyone then could just buy normal armor and shields and then get a +3 enhancement to each for 12 hours for each charge. This should be cheaper than most of them buying +2 armor and shields (CL 8 wand grants +2, cost 18000) Scrolls of this at CL 12 run 900 each, I like wands more because it defeats the age old DM hump move of dispell magic or dispell magic fields (even lamer)
also see if you can by the individual balls off of a necklace of fireballs (book price is 150 per hit die of fire ball) an elemental gem is good in a pinch
a few scribed scrolls of summon monster - any level (Try to summon something humanoidish to avoid "DM Logic") are a necessity. Summon monsters are awesome "volunteers" They love walking through suspected trapped areas.
also just to mess with the DM's mind. besides obvious rogue 101 stuff -DON'T SEARCH ANYTHING; ITS A ONE-OFF; YOU DON'T GET TO KEEP IT. AND KILL EVERYTHING. also make sure you use the adamantine weapon to sunder any mega weapon the monster may have.
A bag of holding with a few extra suits of armor is a good idea for rust monsters.
remember focused magic missile fire is deceptively powerful and most folks overlook it
good luck
Doesn't matter what you make. Tucker's Kobolds will eat you alive.
It doesn't seem as most people see traps as the danger, but the kobolds.
The barbarian can survive a lot. Trap or kobold wise.
But I would go for the diviner wizard as you seem to lack the full mage, and initiative is crucial to survive. (still, take a lot of hp)
If the GM is out the get you, I would fear traps and such much more than normal ennemies, because very dangerous ennemies are cheesy if you want to kill your group, but a deadly trap that isn't that well hidden, well it's the rogues fault then.
Have a good charisma on two of them, and pick up use magic device and buy wands fo magic missle (7th level caster) for 5,250gp. With an 20 charisma, feat and trait you UMD can be 15 so you can use the wand most of the time.
Cheese:
You might consider a Half-Elf cleric. Arcane Training lets you sacrifice one skill point per level for one phantom level of sorcerer, which means you can use any wand you come across!
Urban Ranger for back-up trapfinding, choose kobolds as favored enemy +4, maybe vermin, animals, magical beasts, or dragons as 2nd favored enemies (kobolds like to drop bugs on PCs, have dire weasel companions, and wannabe dragons.
Disable Device, Knowledge dungeoneering, Knowledge local, Perception, Stealth, Survival maxed out.
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Depending on how the other characters where made.
If you have a melee spc. Cleric, and Druid. Bard
If you have a Casting spc. Cleric, or Druid. Bard (Magican)
Best over all 5 person party.
Oracle (Mystry Battle) melee focused with reach weapon.
Druid Melee focused with Animal companion.
Rogue (Pure DPR build) that means you can do traps but it's not why your playing a rogue.
Fighter Melee build
Bard range or melee.
That gives you 7 DPR, 2 full divine casters, 1 Bard buffs, and arcane casting.
IMO. the Magus is proby the weak point in the group as is. Bard dose a much better job. They do not get arcane attack spells unless you play Bard (Magican). The Bard dose get the best group buffs in the game.
Doesn't matter what you make. Tucker's Kobolds will eat you alive.
Lord, how many of them were there? O_O
I remember an old issue of Dungeon that had a dragon living in a tfloating giant gem. The minions were all kobolds with neckace of fireball beads. The dragon had the tribe's families under it's claw.
There was one moment early on, before anyone knew the kobolds were more than meets the eye, that a singular kobold stand in middle of a bridge and calls out for single combat with the groups mightiest warrior. He talked lots of trash talk, and makes himself out to be a mighty kobold warrior seeking to test the "worth" of the invanders.
Of course, as soon as the PC comes out to the bridge to fight the lone kobold, the others all let loose with ranged magic stuff (including those beads) killing poor kobold and destroying bridge over chasm hopefully killing party's best warrior with damage and fall.
Also, narrow tunnels are a Beeeeach! Bone up on movement, and beware traps that single out a player and not necessarily do damage in and of themselves. I never had the kobold dungeon experience, mine was with Jerma--whatzits. (our group never called them a correct name after that encounter in first edition and what we called them is not board safe) The druid as a badger did the best in those confined spaces.
Greg
Doesn't matter what you make. Tucker's Kobolds will eat you alive.Lord, how many of them were there? O_O
There were enough:
The kobold population (after wars with every sentient good race, members lost defending a dragon, cave-ins, etc.), is nevertheless constantly expanding, constantly cramped. Even if you win once, they exist to be martyred. Dying for the tribe is a great honor. So after you wipe out one warren, necessarily killing every single member old enough to trigger a switch, the instant you leave, another tribe is going to send half it's members to reposes the now-empty rooms designed for kobolds. Except now they'll be fortified even more, so as to prevent the new tribe from being wiped like the old one was. And they'll probably send a few hunters after you, just because you deserve it. They breed like rats and they fight to the death and they live in warrens that would make Arcade say 'woah, maybe that's a bit of overkill'. You don't win, you just delay death or escape.
I would go with one of these builds with Half-Elf.
1. Ranger 4/Fighter 2 if you can take Boon Companoin feat.
2. Ranger 2/Fighter 4 For a decent amount skill points and lot of hp and feats.
If you do not mind giving up 1 point of BAB, try these.
3. Ranger 2/Cleric 4 if Boon Companion is go with Animal Domain.
4. Ranger 2/Cleric 3/Fighter 1
What get with each build.
1. 6 feats, good HP, ok skills, and able to use wand of cure light. Do not forget the 5 HD Animal.
2. 7 feats, good HP, ok skills, and able to use wand of cure light.
3. 4 feats, ok HP, ok skills, able to cast up to 2nd level spells, and a 5 or 6 HD animal companion (depends on how the GM stacks levels for animal companion)
4. 5 feats, ok HP, ok skills, and able to cast 2nd levels spells.
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Or throw the DM a total curve ball. 5 witches!
Each would need the following hexes: cackle, evil eye, slumber, then any other have a couple with misfortune.
If he throws some BBEG at the party you will pwn it in round 1, round 2 at the latest (as long as it is not immune to sleep)
3 witches evil eye (even if the creature makes the saves it is at -6 for 1 round), then hit it with misfortune then slumber.
Still up? Next round cackle 3 other evil eyes so now at -12 to saves differnent witches try misfortune and slumber.
Still up??? wow lucky creature, round 3 repeat for a -18 will save!
Or you can just 1st round all evil eye (-10 will save)
round 2: cackle evil eye again 4 witches (-18 will save) slumber!
round 3 coup de gras.Oh and they can do that all day long!
Even uglier is the team of 5 Halfling Jinx-witches with the Malicious Eye feat.
Thanks for all of the feedback everyone. It's so hard to decide! Well, apparently I have quite a bit of time to prepare, as it seems we won't be getting around to this dungeon during spring break, so this might take until summer... Doesn't mean I shall desist in my preparations!
I think I will go for a Zen Archer Monk. Here's some reasons why:
Feats (11!)
Perfect Strike (Take better of two rolls on an attack a number of times per day)
Weapon Focus (Longbow)
Point Blank Master (You don't provoke AoO's with your attacks)
Improved Unarmed Strike (Useless; a holdover from his old ways)
Point Blank Shot
Precise Shot
Improved Initiative
Deadly Aim (At level 6, a monk has 4 BAB, thus -2 attack roll for +4 damage!)
Outflank
Weapon Specialization (Longbow)
Improved Precise Shot
Other notable abilities
Flurry of Blows = Flurry of Arrows
Zen Archery (Wisdom determines to hit for attacking)
He would have a +1 Composite Longbow, Bane: Kobolds (Bane gives an additional +2 to hit and +2d6 damage.)
A dwarf would have bonuses to 2 very relevant stats, Con (to survive!) and Wis (Determines to hit, AC, Ki, Will and more) At level 6, a monk has +20 to movement, easily overcoming the downside of having a base 20 movement speed. Also, a Dwarf has Darkvision, amongst other things. Very handy for dungeons.
Even though not your typical big stupid fighter, I think he fits the role pretty well. As Merck mentioned, since he doesn't provoke AoO's, he is a melee build. Sadly, he won't have his 9th level ability which allows him to make AoO's with his bow, but he's still beastly. (11 feats at level 6?! Not to mention solving the typical monk problem of not being able to use flurry of blows as much as you like. Since you're a ranged fighter, as long as you can see them, you can flurry!) Add the stats I mentioned in my second post, and you've got something monstrous. Hopefully monstrous enough to deal with these kobolds. O_O
My biggest concern with your party comp is your lack of AoE... Kobolds don't exactly tend to come in twos and threes, and your archer build seems to be the only one with more than one attack. The druid is good for AoE control, and if he takes an animal companion and uses summons that will help too. I'd suggest trying to add either a wizard or sorcerer to get some AoE blast spells, and you might want to try and swap out either the rogue or the Magus.
Another thing that might be good to throw in if your gm is trying to kill you would be a Summoner, at six level you could have an Eidolon with four Claw attacks with reach, at +11 to hit and 2d6 + 1d6 energy + 7 (or more imp natural attack is the only feat used so far). Then if you only grab a 12 Cha, you can make the Summoner into a half decent second line fighter (Archer might be best). Just use your second level spells to haste the party and first level for buffs, or things where saves barely matter like grease.
Yeah, currently I'm talking it over with my friend to have our team be my Zen Archer Monk, Cleric, Rogue, Wizard, and... Ranger? A Druid or Paladin might also do the trick.
Also deliberating whether an Oracle might work better than a cleric. Furthermore, whether it would be worth it to select the Fire Domain or Flame Mystery for fireball. Maybe that's best left to a wizard, if at all.
Another thing I'm looking into is multiclassing, since this is a one shot. Maybe 4 levels of Rogue and 2 levels of Ranger would be better for this campaign, for example. A dip into fighter, barbarian, etc. might be something worthwhile.
I just thought I'd let everyone know that, indeed, my GM was inspired by Tucker's Kobolds. As such, my only thought is this: we're screwed. xP
A potential countermeasure to give our group a fighting chance is to convince my GM to let us start at a higher level; at least level 7. From there, if we can abuse leadership cheese to its utmost limit, we can have each of our 5 characters max out their leadership score to 25. (This is possible at level 7, it just takes a lot of work and cheesiness.)I guess flavor-wise, we could say we're five leaders of the communities that have been ravaged by the kobolds as of late, and we inspire the population to take up arms against the vile kobolds. In which case, with 5 separate leadership characters, we should be able to muster over 750 people total. Combine those kind of numbers with tactics, and I think we'd stand a pretty good chance.
...but as is? I think we're screwed. >.<
But that won't stop me from trying. A few things that may begin to help is some well placed spells. Perhaps divination spells, enchantment spells, summoning spells (trigger the traps before we get there?) etc. As much as I love my Zen Archer Monk, the only thing he's good at is damage output. He can kill 4 kobolds a turn. Huzzah. (And that's only if he can stay more or less stationary.) I just don't think that'll quite cut it. I almost wonder if even a rogue is handy in these circumstances. It doesn't sound like we'll be given the chance to wait around and attempt to disarm a trap.
Anyway, lot's to consider, and it's late here. I'll think about this more in the morning.
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Four witches, a cleric, and a fighter would own. They're such awesome debuffers and if you minmax right, near impossible to shake off the damn penalties. Just cast slumber on everything, the fighter or cleric (I'd go dwarven cleric) coup de grace. The cleric also has a few great AOE like that that fire pillar spell (forgot the name)
If this is a one-shot meat grinder, maybe the DM should have you each make 2 or 3 PCs. If someone dies in the first encounter, they're just gonna sit there twiddling their thumbs while everyone else plays. If they have a second or third PC already rolled up, they can jump right back into the action during the next encounter. ("Hi...I'm Bob the barbarian, you left your cloak back at the inn---OMGs!!! We're under attack by kobolds!")
If this is a one-shot meat grinder, maybe the DM should have you each make 2 or 3 PCs. If someone dies in the first encounter, they're just gonna sit there twiddling their thumbs while everyone else plays. If they have a second or third PC already rolled up, they can jump right back into the action during the next encounter. ("Hi...I'm Bob the barbarian, you left your cloak back at the inn---OMGs!!! We're under attack by kobolds!")
That's a really good idea. One possible variation is to say that it ends as soon as the last of the original characters dies. That way you're not screwed if a few characters die (otherwise, encounters get harder and harder), but you keep the sense of "if we all die, we lose" that having lots of replacements would lessen.
You can also try out all sorts of different builds. For example, an alchemist might be really useful in this scenario. They're good at dealing with mechanical traps, and have lots of small area of effect attacks that would be useful in relatively cramped quarters against relatively frail opponents.
A negative energy channeling cleric with selective channeling might also be useful for clearing out tunnels, and can heal in a pinch. A dragon shaman giving out DR 2/magic would be really useful against (non-magical) Small weapons with Strength penalties to damage or Fire Resistance 10 against alchemist fires, etc. etc.
That full house of 3/4th BAB characters screams Bard to me. The Magus, along with the Druid and companion, would benefit from a little extra offense and help make up for the lack of a dedicated martial character without thrusting the combat burden onto any lone player.
Paladin could be nice, but against a hostile DM and an army of creatures that could be quite weak individually, the options available to you via 6th level smiting aren't especially good. The risk of there being too many BBEGs/bosses, or false ones to waste your smites, is too significant to ignore.
I think the versatility and day-long benefits of a Fighter would supersede the Paladin in this case. Of course, it's indeed hard to deny the relevance of the Ranger with Favored Enemy: Humanoid (reptilian).
Concerning the arcane: scrolls. Having the flexibility of a Sorcerer while juggling plenty of scrolls like a pseudo-Wizard would, while bankrupting you in a long campaign, help you make it to the end of a one-shot like this.
neutral clerics, all neutral clerics. Screw healing, take the negative energy channel. 100 kobolds in a cramped room behind walls and shields and barricades? well BOOM channel negative energy, I'd call shenanigans if any kobold can survive that blast of death.
And as to the story of tuckers kobolds, has no one heard of stone wall? they were in a corridor and had a high level mage. Pop a wall up behind them and walk away. They can't exactly knock it down considering how thick it would be in such a short narrow corridor.
Play a sorcerer and cast disguise self/alter self on the party to make them look like kobolds. That ought to confuse the enemy.
Half Orc Alchemist looks like a Must here, also a trapfinder is going to be very handy.
Also be prepared to face ranks of kobolds with reach weapons. That can be very nasty if played well.
Expect the kobolds to attack through the walls and have tunnels that are "cramped" for medium sized, and backup tunnels that are "cramped" for Small (making it impossible to follow for medium creatures).
Picking a Small character for this adventure could be a forte. Gnome or Halfling Summoner with a Small Eidolon.
But AoE. Stuff that can be poured or fired into their hidey-holes, which is why teh alchemist is so obviously a good choice.
