Keep in mind, the monk can't use the necklace of natural armor due to needing that slot for the abhorrant design idea of requiring the monk to use the Necklace of Natural Attacks or whatever the stupid thing is called.
Also, every point in wisdom is a point that's not spent in offense.
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I'll jump in here...while I don't agree with everything that Treantmonk has in his guide, his general premise that the defensive Wis/Dex-first monk is suboptimal is dead-on. You can make a monk that eclipses the DPR capabilities of just about every class, minus the two-handed fighter type or paladins vs. Team Evil. Or you can make one that prays for a failed save vs. stunning fist, prays for a high roll on a trip/grapple check, or one that the DM/BBEG generally ignore.
FULL ROUND for 1 attack, IF the attacks hit, fortitude save?Don't forget, it must be a crit AND against a (dazed / flat-footed / paralyzed / staggered / stunned / unconscious) foe ;)
Yeah. the feat could be more specific only with a "this feat works only if used against people called Frank and are professional taxidermists (amateurs don't count)"
Keep in mind, the monk can't use the necklace of natural armor due to needing that slot for the abhorrant design idea of requiring the monk to use the Necklace of Natural Attacks or whatever the stupid thing is called.
I don't get this: in magic item creation, there's a section on adding new abilities to existing magical items. My understanding of this is that it should be possible to commission someone to add a natural armour bonus to an amulet of mighty fists at a 50% markup (i.e. 3000 for +1 natural AC bonus ). Sure, you likely can't just buy one, and you might not find one as loot, but doesn't anyone commission anything? Custom crafting would be a great alternative reward occasionally. What am I missing here?
Yeah. the feat could be more specific only with a "this feat works only if used against people called Frank and are professional taxidermists (amateurs don't count)"FULL ROUND for 1 attack, IF the attacks hit, fortitude save?Don't forget, it must be a crit AND against a (dazed / flat-footed / paralyzed / staggered / stunned / unconscious) foe ;)
That entire chain of feats isn't worth taking, except for Medusa's Wrath which is amazing for the default monk build. Luckily monks can take Wrath without taking anything else in that chain. They'd be really fun and useful if they would apply on any hit, or worked like Stunning Fist, but they're all limited to one attack per turn.
Yeah. the feat could be more specific only with a "this feat works only if used against people called Frank and are professional taxidermists (amateurs don't count)"FULL ROUND for 1 attack, IF the attacks hit, fortitude save?Don't forget, it must be a crit AND against a (dazed / flat-footed / paralyzed / staggered / stunned / unconscious) foe ;)That entire chain of feats isn't worth taking, except for Medusa's Wrath which is amazing for the default monk build. Luckily monks can take Wrath without taking anything else in that chain. They'd be really fun and useful if they would apply on any hit, or worked like Stunning Fist, but they're all limited to one attack per turn.
The feat chain is not that powerful, but it's nice, barring Gorgon's fist (BTW, what does exactly means "speed reduced?" stunned counts as "speed reduced?"). On the flip side, they can be combined, AFAIK, with stunning fist, so you can force 2 save after a move + attack.
I agree that Medusa Wrath is AWESOME.
What really makes me "O_o" is that the feat has been actually updated, and none bothered to think how many people could even consider to take it.
APG is a really great book, and I consider it maybe the best crunch splat I ever seen for this game (and with "this game", i don't mean just Pathfinder). Nevertheless, there are few 3-4 options which are really overpowered, and 3-4 really undepowered that slipped through.
Keep in mind, the monk can't use the necklace of natural armor due to needing that slot for the abhorrant design idea of requiring the monk to use the Necklace of Natural Attacks or whatever the stupid thing is called.
Also, every point in wisdom is a point that's not spent in offense.
This is why I give monks my players play the option of using Str, Dex, or Wis for attack and damage. Sure it puts a lot of eggs in a single basket, but you know, wizards do it too.
Would full BAB break the class?
I'll jump in here...while I don't agree with everything that Treantmonk has in his guide, his general premise that the defensive Wis/Dex-first monk is suboptimal is dead-on. You can make a monk that eclipses the DPR capabilities of just about every class, minus the two-handed fighter type or paladins vs. Team Evil. Or you can make one that prays for a failed save vs. stunning fist, prays for a high roll on a trip/grapple check, or one that the DM/BBEG generally ignore.
Listen to this man, he knows what he's talking about.
Also if the monk is supposed to be a "defensive class" why do plate + shield users beat their AC handily at any level?
Also if the monk is supposed to be a "defensive class" why do plate + shield users beat their AC handily at any level?
Because AC isn't the only defense in the game and monks have a heck of a lot of the other ones.
Because AC isn't the only defense in the game and monks have a heck of a lot of the other ones.
Also if the monk is supposed to be a "defensive class" why do plate + shield users beat their AC handily at any level?
Irrelevant. If a class is designed to be "defensive" then their AC, arguably the most important and commonly targetted defense in the game, shouldn't be subpar.
Keep in mind, the monk can't use the necklace of natural armor due to needing that slot for the abhorrant design idea of requiring the monk to use the Necklace of Natural Attacks or whatever the stupid thing is called.
Also, every point in wisdom is a point that's not spent in offense.
Not any more really! With the Cestus, they can just enchant that, and get to dual-wield with a single enchanted weapon (due to how Flurry works)!
The cestus was really a great boost for the monk.
Keep in mind, the monk can't use the necklace of natural armor due to needing that slot for the abhorrant design idea of requiring the monk to use the Necklace of Natural Attacks or whatever the stupid thing is called.
Also, every point in wisdom is a point that's not spent in offense.
Not any more really! With the Cestus, they can just enchant that, and get to dual-wield with a single enchanted weapon (due to how Flurry works)!
The cestus was really a great boost for the monk.
And therein lies the biggest problem with the Monk, even beyond the issue of flurry being a full-round action. It requires magic boxing gloves and a bunch of other magic items to be viable at mid to high levels.
Would full BAB break the class?
Full BAB does two thing. A bonus to hit and qualifying for feats. Full BAB for the to hit bonus won't break the Monk. The earlier access to feats may, I'd have to see in play to be sure one way or the other.
Full BaB would mean an HD increase, from d8 to d10 (due to the BaB-HD equivalence introduced in Pathfinder)... and I would not see anything wrong with it.
I mean, in most (if not any) 'not-D&D-based' CRPGs (especially JRPGs) the Monk is a 'bruiser class', self-sufficient, strong and tough. D&D (and by consequence Pathfinder) Monk is... lacking in this area, IMHO.
I used to believe all the hype about how bad the monk class is. then I started one and after playing one I think much of it is wrong. I'n a game where everyone is massively optimized this may be different.
I split my stats up evenly and at lvl 10 with gear had 18 str 18 dex 16 wis a base ac of 27 (28 with Mage armor) and could self buff with ki to 32. with ki and haste I got 6 attacks a round of the target suffered slow staggered etc it would be 8 6 Pf witch would be at my highest BaB.
could you build a stronger fighter I'm sure but he wouldnt move 90 feet hasted be able to jump 20 feet high from avstand still evade etc.
monks have ALOT of strong points but the need people seem to have to turn them into main damage dealers is unnecessary.
would I have objected to full BaB? no because I'd have qualified for stunning fist on y weon adept and I'n addition to rolling 3 dice on perfect strike could throw a stun too.
monks are intended to be a defensive class, not an offensive one. They've got a LOT of defensive stuff; great saves, lots of AC boosts, immunities/resistances. The idea behind the monk is that he might not do damage as quickly as a full BAB class, but he'll be around longer to DO the damage because he's harder to kill.I guess I haven't played enough Pathfinder, but a character with no armor that gets a whopping +1 AC boost every four levels doesn't seem very "defensive" or "harder to kill". Even with the Wis modifier boost to AC, it's really hard to get over 20 AC by level 5 (when Fighters, Paladins, Rangers and Barbarians are all easily in that range). The saves are outstanding, but the low AC and hit points (due to low Con, necessary to boost DX and Wis for AC) make them rather fragile in straight combat. If anything, the Monks are an un-defensive class, intended to maneuver around to strike less melee capable foes (casters, archers, etc.) for lots of quick damage or incapaciting strikes.
But anyway... yeah. It's because they perfect defense over offense, basically.
I would respectfully disagree. I think the 3/4 BAB is appropriate because Monks are a more multi-faceted character type than the straight bruiser/dpr types, but get the full 1/1 BAB with their FoB to reflect that they are more combat focused than rogues or casters. Frankly, the most major drawback I've encountered with my Monks has been their vulnerability in combat.
I guess I haven't played enough Pathfinder, but a character with no armor that gets a whopping +1 AC boost every four levels doesn't seem very "defensive" or "harder to kill". Even with the Wis modifier boost to AC, it's really hard to get over 20 AC by level 5 (when Fighters, Paladins, Rangers and Barbarians are all easily in that range).
Really? My son's 5th level halfling monk has 18 dex (+4), 16 wis (+3), size (+1), ring of prot (+1), monk AC bonus (+1) and dodge (+1) for a total AC 21. If the (female) monk's sorcerer sister puts mage armour on her, that's AC 25. And an amulet of natural armour wouldn't set her back much. Yes, her HPs are low, but I have to hit her first.
i assume pf monks are based on the shaolin monks legend. why the heck are these guys not full bab?
It's to punish players who play monk characters because they like the fluff.
Realistically, though, its because someone, a long time ago, when designing D&D 3E, made some serious misjudgments as to what's overpowered and what's not.
Ok, i'm playing in a game lvl 4, 'mid powered' (3-15's 3-13's), and my paladin is a 17 ac. We have 1 set of magic armor, 2 magic weapons, and one rod of healing. Thats it. A monk, with a d8, max hp = 36, and a max of 16 ac would get slaughtered. My paladin has 48 hp and i nearly die in almost every encounter. In fact we have a rogue with 16ac and 25hp at lvl 4, she got knocked down to 0 hp twice in one combat, with a single strike from a CR5 earth elemental. I just dont see the monk as a viable defensive char. Saves are great, but they are terribly circumstantial.I guess I haven't played enough Pathfinder, but a character with no armor that gets a whopping +1 AC boost every four levels doesn't seem very "defensive" or "harder to kill". Even with the Wis modifier boost to AC, it's really hard to get over 20 AC by level 5 (when Fighters, Paladins, Rangers and Barbarians are all easily in that range).Really? My son's 5th level halfling monk has 18 dex (+4), 16 wis (+3), size (+1), ring of prot (+1), monk AC bonus (+1) and dodge (+1) for a total AC 21. If the (female) monk's sorcerer sister puts mage armour on her, that's AC 25. And an amulet of natural armour wouldn't set her back much. Yes, her HPs are low, but I have to hit her first.
If the monk has more AC and more hp than the rogue, and the rogue survived (barely), why would the monk be slaughtered?
Also, the monk would easily have max AC 17 (15 base wis or dex, +2 racial, +1 from level 4 = 18, for +4 AC, The other stat would be at least a 15 for another +2, monk gets +1 at level 4), which is the same as you, and applies to touch attacks and when flat-footed as well, which your AC doesn't. If he took dodge as one of his monk bonus feats, he'd be a point above you. So equivalent AC, better saves (including evasion and still mind), movement to get away from things, stunning fist to keep them from attacking him, and the ability to spend a ki point (this monk would have 6) to gain +4 AC for a turn.
yeah. I'n the lvl 10 game I posted about previously the dm was a little shocked. basically anything but a BBEG needed a 20 To hit me. this isn't to say I think monks are perfect. I'n our game flying and invisible opponents and party members tha never memorize stuff like glitter dust is a problem.
but there's nothing more satisfying than doing a choke out on a lvl 12 cleric after your party witch dispels the only thing stopping a grapple.
I'n a game with balanced characters within wbl monks are offensively and defensively fine.
They should just use their Monk Level as their BAB when making unarmded strikes or fighting with special monk weapons not just when using flurry of blows.+1
The 3/4 bab is really good for limiting them to there special style.
"Trailblazer" did just this. And they wrapped it up in a nice, clean terminology called "focus" I believe. A monk loses focus when wielding a non-monk weapon or wearing armor. Otherwise they behave as though they have full BAB (and they get their AC bonus).
We've been using that rule and it has been very nice. Well, actually, it's been exactly the same because the monk almost never uses a standard attack. But we feel better about it, and that's what counts, right?
I see a lot on this thread about tripping and good damage. That's fine and all if your opponent isn't a huge monster with high strength and DR, which many from mid to end game are. I would like to see even something minor to amend this, such as a feat or KI ability that negates x amount of DR equal to your wisdom mod, or some type of ability/Combat maneuver that works on larger(not the size category) foe's.
...on a side note, I Have a player in my game who keeps trying to do a MMA style monk who breaks/dislocates bones or a Karate style that focuses on less but stronger hits like the old 3.5 PHB II replacement decisive strike. I've tryed to get him to play a brutal pugilist, but he says it doesn't fit any ideas?
if he wants to do single bigger hits he needs to look at vital strike then. but it doesn't compare to flurry. butbyeah I'd recommend a savage grappler archetype barbarian with the punching stuff.
I'n regards to bigger bad guys I'm not cure how much cmb you expect. I hit +22 at lvl 10 with a temple sword. I'm sure someone who knows the game better could get higher.
beating the cmd really wast the issue. it was hoping the BBEG diest float fly or levitate somehow.
if he wants to do single bigger hits he needs to look at vital strike then. but it doesn't compare to flurry. butbyeah I'd recommend a savage grappler archetype barbarian with the punching stuff.
The medium BAB and the improved natural attack nerf make this option less viable.
Monk of the four winds and a druid spell make a good combination, still.
Sure, you likely can't just buy one, and you might not find one as loot, but doesn't anyone commission anything? Custom crafting would be a great alternative reward occasionally. What am I missing here?The idea is that most treasure you find is old treasure since magic items are very durable and can last centuries. The general assumption is that item crafters simply aren't that common. Especially since a fair number of items require spellcasting classes not normally associated with itemcrafting.
How do you manage players' wish lists? I'm supposing most GMs give at least some thought to what their players are really hoping for. If the fighter really, really wants an 8000 gp flaming +1 sword, how do they get it? What if a rogue really wants a +2 glamered chain shirt? If a player thinks the monk is really broken because he has to choose between an Am of MF and an Am of NA, why not put a combination in, in the same way you presumably occasionally cater to other players wishes. It would also be useful to druids and rangers for animal companions and druids in wildshape.
Personally, I don't much like the idea of my players ditching their currently precious +1 or masterwork items, so already intend, very occasionally, to give them the opportunity to get them upgraded.