Can you sneak attack everyone within a cone of a scatter weapon? How about vital strike?
I would say no to both, but I don't have a good reason besides it seems wrong.
Can you sneak attack everyone within a cone of a scatter weapon? How about vital strike?
I would say no to both, but I don't have a good reason besides it seems wrong.
I would say if and only if you make an attack roll. That would be how I adjuducate it.
Randy
Growing Up Gamers
Can you sneak attack everyone within a cone of a scatter weapon? How about vital strike?
I would say no to both, but I don't have a good reason besides it seems wrong.
I would say if and only if you make an attack roll. That would be how I adjuducate it.
Randy
Growing Up Gamers
with the blunderbuss and the shotgun you make an attack roll against all creatures in the cone
i would say no to the idea of sneak attacking with a scatter gun
You would need to be in a situation where they are denied their dex bonus (since you can't flank with the scatter weapons) but if you are in such a situation sure -- you simply aimed at their heads instead of their knee caps.
Every target receives an individual attack roll so it's kosher on that level too.
This seems very powerful, you are targeting touch AC and laying out a cone with sneak attack damage. If you act before they do or are unseen you can clear a room with ease if this is true.
This seems very powerful, you are targeting touch AC and laying out a cone with sneak attack damage. If you act before they do or are unseen you can clear a room with ease if this is true.
Gee, you can clean a room out quickly with a shotgun? Who knew?
[/sarcasm]
Honestly though considering the penalties you take (penalty to attack, misfire chance, need to reload *slowly!* and feat costs plus the need for a situation you can do this in) I don't think it's a huge deal.
Also highly unlikely you'll actually get that many people in your 15 foot cone. I mean a maximum of 7 people and that's if they are literally stacked on top of each other while you have surprise and right in front of you (since you only have a standard action).
This seems very powerful, you are targeting touch AC and laying out a cone with sneak attack damage. If you act before they do or are unseen you can clear a room with ease if this is true.Gee, you can clean a room out quickly with a shotgun? Who knew?
[/sarcasm]
Honestly though considering the penalties you take (penalty to attack, misfire chance, need to reload *slowly!* and feat costs plus the need for a situation you can do this in) I don't think it's a huge deal.
Also highly unlikely you'll actually get that many people in your 15 foot cone. I mean a maximum of 7 people and that's if they are literally stacked on top of each other while you have surprise and right in front of you (since you only have a standard action).
if you are reloading a blunderbuss with out using paper cartridges, rapid reload, or both of course the reload time is going to be really slow, with the shotgun using metal cartridges + rapid reload makes it a free action to reload if i remember correctly (standard becomes move, move action becomes free)
I think that Paizo should clarify if you can or can't deal precision damage with a scatter attack. I would rule against it. Sneak attacks, atleast as I understand them, rely on some serious precision to work and I don't see that happening with a blunderbuss firing nails and sporks. ;)
I havn't seen any thing from the devs on this and I guess that it's okey by RAW but still.
But what about Bleeding Wounds or Targeting, getting every one in a 15 feet cone with one of those effects would be pretty crazy, especially because they don't rely on direct damage to mess things up. It's all in need of some clarification I think.
Edit: typos
You still have to get multiple targets all denied dex bonus *and* within the small cone of the gun...
Its not like you'll whip out your shotgun and mow down half dozen folks.. at best you may get 2-3, most likely 1.
-S
How about vital strike?
The way I'm reading it. If you use your standard action on the attack action with a gun loaded with pellets it would only apply Vital Strike to one of the creatures in the cone.
A weapon with the scatter special quality can shoot two different types of ammunition. It can fire normal bullets that target one creature, or it can make a scattering shot, attacking all creatures within a cone. When it attacks all creatures within a cone, it makes one attack per creature within in the cone, and each attack takes a –2 penalty. If any of the attacks threaten a critical, confirm the critical for that creature alone. If a scatter weapon explodes on a misfire, it deals triple its damage to all creatures within the misfire radius.
When you use the attack action, you can make one attack at your highest base attack bonus that deals additional damage. Roll the weapon’s damage dice for the attack twice and add the results together before adding bonuses from Strength, weapon abilities (such as flaming), precision-based damage, and other damage bonuses. These extra weapon damage dice are not multiplied on a critical hit, but are added to the total.
You still have to get multiple targets all denied dex bonus *and* within the small cone of the gun...
Its not like you'll whip out your shotgun and mow down half dozen folks.. at best you may get 2-3, most likely 1.
-S
that's not very hard to do, use stealth/invisibility or have a really high enough initiative to go before your targets since everyone is treated as flat-footed until they take their turn. with a blunderbuss you will probably won't get more than one shot off
I think that Paizo should clarify if you can or can't deal precision damage with a scatter attack. I would rule against it. Sneak attacks, atleast as I understand them, rely on some serious precision to work and I don't see that happening with a blunderbuss firing nails and sporks. ;)
I havn't seen any thing from the devs on this and I guess that it's okey by RAW but still.But what about Bleeding Wounds or Targeting, getting every one in a 15 feet cone with one of those effects would be pretty crazy, especially because they don't rely on direct damage to mess things up. It's all in need of some clarification I think.
Edit: typos
I would argue that hitting someone in a weak spot with scatter shot is going to hurt just as much if not more than hitting them with a sword --
Have you seen a human head after a 00 goes in one side and out the other?
Not Pretty.
As to the metal cartridges:
Metal Cartridge: These sturdier versions of the
alchemical cartridges allow you to reload the full capacity
of your with a move-equivalent action.
Cost: 20 gp.
Doesn't work with the blunderbust because it is not an advanced firearm -- and I've already double checked and gotten it from the developers that you cannot make advance versions of the basic firearms.
Which means you need a shotgun to use metal cartridges with a scatter weapon -- which means that *most* (according to the "availability" section they have with the gunslinger) campaigns won't have to worry about it.
A shotgun being a 30 ft cone is even worse. I agree that precision damage should not be allowed with scatter, but the rules do not back it clearly.
sounds like a dex based rogue with improved initiative found his dream start the fight weapon
-enter room
-see crowd of bad guys standing near each other (most rooms aren't very big and they are most likely conversing if they don't know your there)
-unleash shotgun barrage
(if you have rapid reload)
-win initiative
-reload
-unleash more hell
I like this, it should totally work
I like this, it should totally work
Yeah it's just too iconic in too many movies -- guy kicks in door everyone's jaws drop, they're moving for cover but they are too slow as he laughs manically blowing them away with a shotgun.
Besides I imagine the damage is still less than what a fighter could do with it.
You know what? I don't see anywhere it says that you get to make touch attacks with a scatter weapon. Am I missing something?
Range and Penetration: Armor, manufactured or natural, provides
little protection against the force of a bullet at short range. When firing
upon a target within a firearm’s first range increment, the attack resolves
against the target’s touch AC, but is not considered a touch attack for
the purposes of feats such as Deadly Aim. At higher range increments,
the attack resolves normally (including taking the normal cumulative –2
penalty for each full-range increment). Unlike other projectile weapons,
most firearms have a maximum range of five range increments.
Unless you have something that specifically states that the normal firearm rules aren't in place then they remain so -- just because you are taking an 'attack' against everyone in range doesn't mean you aren't attacking with a firearm or that the simple use of the word "attack" means that it isn't a normal firearm attack.
Unless you have something that specifically states that the normal firearm rules aren't in place then they remain so -- just because you are taking an 'attack' against everyone in range doesn't mean you aren't attacking with a firearm or that the simple use of the word "attack" means that it isn't a normal firearm attack.Range and Penetration: Armor, manufactured or natural, provides
little protection against the force of a bullet at short range. When firing
upon a target within a firearm’s first range increment, the attack resolves
against the target’s touch AC, but is not considered a touch attack for
the purposes of feats such as Deadly Aim. At higher range increments,
the attack resolves normally (including taking the normal cumulative –2
penalty for each full-range increment). Unlike other projectile weapons,
most firearms have a maximum range of five range increments.
But the cone does not use range increments...
I would argue that hitting someone in a weak spot with scatter shot is going to hurt just as much if not more than hitting them with a sword --
Have you seen a human head after a 00 goes in one side and out the other?
Not Pretty.
Look now I'm not saying that you couldn't shove a scattergun up someones nose and pull of a sneak attack somehow. What I think is weird is being able to hit a maximum of four people in weak spots on their armors. It's not like you can remote control the pellets to his one guy's eye and another one's kidney. I guess that your explanation that you would go for head-shot could make scenes, but why wouldn't you be going for that all the time? Especially when you're shooting at someone 10 feet away.
I will freely admit that I have NO real experience shooting guns, it just feels wrong for someone to hit multiple weak spots with an inaccurate weapon like a blunderbuss.
What about Bleeding Wound.... no! Me complying about that is stupid, I misread the deed. However is it logical to use Targeting on several enemies? Head-shoots could make scenes but what about shooting everyone just in the arm, Lucky Luke couldn't pull that off.
Edited typos
Oh god. I can't believe this, but it's actually viable now.
The shotgun ninja.
Be a ninja. Use a shotgun. Use vanishing trick as a swift action and position yourself to sneak attack as many people as you can with your cone of deadliness.
Oh god. I can't believe this, but it's actually viable now.
The shotgun ninja.
Be a ninja. Use a shotgun. Use vanishing trick as a swift action and position yourself to sneak attack as many people as you can with your cone of deadliness.
+1
I can see the sneak attack to an extent -- about the same way I can see the arcane trickster's surprise spell happening. The Head shot with scattering I'll agree with is a bit odd -- but consider that the scatter gun could be a "wide" scatter instead of a "round" scatter by shaping the barrel. Then you aim at head level -- with that many pellets going at head level your bound to hit several heads.
I see the sneak attack being about the same way -- when you are flat footed you aren't ducking and weaving like you should -- and if everyone in a room is in that shape then you simply aim at head level when you pull the trigger -- those pellets are going to hurt people more catching them at head level instead of chest level.
I'm not saying that if you simply look at it as a "cone" attack that it isn't a little odd, but if you look at it as a cone simulating the area attack of a scattering blast -- one that is shaped and can be guided then it starts to make a bit more sense.
I mean heck at this point you might as well complain that you can critical different people with the scatter since you can't "aim" it to do so.
I feel like the people who are PCs most of the time look to exploit things like this for an advantage and people who GM most of the time look to balance it.
Precision damage for everyone in a cone does not make sense and it seems game breaking in certain situations. If any npc used this on your whole party you would be crying.
A rouge that equals your 4 member party's CR who got the sneak attack off in the surprise round and then reloaded and did it again just did your entire party's HD in d6 plus the gun's dice, plus any bonus damage.
Which realistic or not I am not liking for the game.
I can see the sneak attack to an extent -- about the same way I can see the arcane trickster's surprise spell happening. The Head shot with scattering I'll agree with is a bit odd -- but consider that the scatter gun could be a "wide" scatter instead of a "round" scatter by shaping the barrel. Then you aim at head level -- with that many pellets going at head level your bound to hit several heads.
I see the sneak attack being about the same way -- when you are flat footed you aren't ducking and weaving like you should -- and if everyone in a room is in that shape then you simply aim at head level when you pull the trigger -- those pellets are going to hurt people more catching them at head level instead of chest level.
I'm not saying that if you simply look at it as a "cone" attack that it isn't a little odd, but if you look at it as a cone simulating the area attack of a scattering blast -- one that is shaped and can be guided then it starts to make a bit more sense.
Well, now that you go into a bit more detail I guess that I could see sneaky shotgun attacks happening.
I mean heck at this point you might as well complain that you can critical different people with the scatter since you can't "aim" it to do so.
I have all ways seen crits as having a big luck component so I really don't mind criting a bucket load of people with a blunderbuss burst. ^_^
So I guess I'm a-okay with blunderbuss sneak attacks, but all the rogue are going to have to use silly duck looking guns!
Generally speaking, if a rogue gets more chances to sneak attack is a good thing. I wish they could use flasks to SA like in 3.5 (and hope UC addresses this, maybe with an optional rule, or a x+int modifiers/day rogue talent*).
Said this, I see how the careful aiming typical of SA seems not possible with a blunderbuss, I can see how people feels it odd.
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* I admit that this, along with keep repeating that rogues need a HiPS mechanic without multiclassing, it's my "Delenda Carthago.." :P
In the feat chain for dazzling display one of the feats leaves all the combatants that are affected flat footed, no? Rogue sneaks up and lets em have it with his pellet spread whammo!
I can see certain situations, using specialized combos working.
what about said rogue with weapon focus shotgun, dazzling display and whatever that other flat foot feat is... and "say hello to my little friend" BLAMMO...now you dont even need the other guy, right?
Yeah but I'm inclined to say once a Rogue has spent that much resources into doing this I'm going to let him have his fun.