Improved Critical species it doesn't work with any other ability that increases crit range.Targeting torso doesn't increase critical range, it is a special attack with a critical range of 19-20. So, normal attack + Improved critical : 19-20 x4, targeting torso + Improved Critical : 17-20 x4.
If it threatened a critical before on a 20, and now it threatens on a 19-20, how is that not an ability that increases the threat range?
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If it threatened a critical before on a 20, and now it threatens on a 19-20, how is that not an ability that increases the threat range?
Alpha Gunslinger :
"Torso: Targeting the torso doubles the critical range
of the affected attack."
Beta Gunslinger :
"Torso: Targeting the torso threatens a critical on a 19–20."
I don't think the Alpha wasn't clear enough to the point they had to write the exact critical range, since it is clear in the rules that effects increasing critical range don't stack.
Nowhere in the actual beta it is written that the threat range increases, it is just bigger when you target torso. But maybe I'm wrong - I guess a designer's opinion on this one could be useful.
The revised gunslinger they put out changes the wording to targeting torso, before it said targeting torso doubles the crit range of the affect attack, now it says targeting torso threatens on a 19-20, which means it can be effected by improved crit or keen. I like improved crit because A) im working with ALOT of pistols and B) keen doesn't fit "ball" ammo to me...even though it's 'piercing'Improved Critical species it doesn't work with any other ability that increases crit range.
As it is worded, it doesn't increase the threat range it sets the threat range. For example, if you were to find a gun artifact that had 17-20/x4 base critical, shooting the torso would set it to 19-20. As such, keen or improved crit stack with it.
(Do both keen AND improved crit share the same limitation?)
Improved Critical isn't very specific about HOW the threat range is increased, only that it is increased. If you "change" the range to a larger number, that's an increase. I see what they tried to do with the rewrite, but that doesn't really fix anything. If they really want it to work together, the ability should call out that it works with Improved Critical and Improved Critical works with it.
Of course, at one time, Improved Critical was specified not to work in conjunction with other abilities for a reason. If that rationale no longer applies according to the Paizo team, it's really Imp Critical that needs to be changed.
The revised gunslinger they put out changes the wording to targeting torso, before it said targeting torso doubles the crit range of the affect attack, now it says targeting torso threatens on a 19-20, which means it can be effected by improved crit or keen. I like improved crit because A) im working with ALOT of pistols and B) keen doesn't fit "ball" ammo to me...even though it's 'piercing'Improved Critical species it doesn't work with any other ability that increases crit range.
Targeting torso no longer "increases" threat range of anything, it specifies a different threat range than would normally apply.
so while targeting torso your threat range IS 19-20, not 20. Then you apply a multiplier like improved crit.It was purposely rewritten to allow improved crit to work.
I grok what was intended, I just don't think they have yet succeeded. The problem isn't the description of torso shot, it's the very clear and generally applicable language in Improved Critical.
RJGrady wrote:
Pendagast wrote:
The revised gunslinger they put out changes the wording to targeting torso, before it said targeting torso doubles the crit range of the affect attack, now it says targeting torso threatens on a 19-20, which means it can be effected by improved crit or keen. I like improved crit because A) im working with ALOT of pistols and B) keen doesn't fit "ball" ammo to me...even though it's 'piercing'
Improved Critical species it doesn't work with any other ability that increases crit range.
Targeting torso no longer "increases" threat range of anything, it specifies a different threat range than would normally apply.
so while targeting torso your threat range IS 19-20, not 20. Then you apply a multiplier like improved crit.
It was purposely rewritten to allow improved crit to work.
Straight out of the PDFs:
"Targeting Torso: Targeting the torso threatens a critical on a 19–20.""Last line of Improved Critical: This effect doesn’t stack with any other effect that expands the threat range of a weapon."
"Keen: This ability doubles the threat range of a weapon. Only piercing or slashing melee weapons can be keen."
So, keen goes right out of the door either way since it can only be applied to Melee weapons. Targeting Torso makes no mention of it increasing the threat range of the weapon, it only says that you threaten on a roll of 19-20. The last line of Imp crit however specifies exactly that it can't be used with any other EFFECT that has expanded the threat range of the weapon. In Targeting's explanation it says "When she makes this attack, she can choose part of the body to target, and gains the following effects depending on the part of the body targeted." So, IMO, RAW, Targeting Torso doesn't stack with Imp Crit. I feel like if the designers had wanted to, then they would have specifically said so. Think of it this way: Do you know of ANY way to legally have a Scythe threaten a crit on 17-20? I don't and I think guns are following the same rules as other /x4 crit weapons in this regard.
RJGrady wrote:
Pendagast wrote:
The revised gunslinger they put out changes the wording to targeting torso, before it said targeting torso doubles the crit range of the affect attack, now it says targeting torso threatens on a 19-20, which means it can be effected by improved crit or keen. I like improved crit because A) im working with ALOT of pistols and B) keen doesn't fit "ball" ammo to me...even though it's 'piercing'
Improved Critical species it doesn't work with any other ability that increases crit range.
Targeting torso no longer "increases" threat range of anything, it specifies a different threat range than would normally apply.
so while targeting torso your threat range IS 19-20, not 20. Then you apply a multiplier like improved crit.
It was purposely rewritten to allow improved crit to work.Straight out of the PDFs:
"Targeting Torso: Targeting the torso threatens a critical on a 19–20."
"Last line of Improved Critical: This effect doesn’t stack with any other effect that expands the threat range of a weapon."
"Keen: This ability doubles the threat range of a weapon. Only piercing or slashing melee weapons can be keen."So, keen goes right out of the door either way since it can only be applied to Melee weapons. Targeting Torso makes no mention of it increasing the threat range of the weapon, it only says that you threaten on a roll of 19-20. The last line of Imp crit however specifies exactly that it can't be used with any other EFFECT that has expanded the threat range of the weapon. In Targeting's explanation it says "When she makes this attack, she can choose part of the body to target, and gains the following effects depending on the part of the body targeted." So, IMO, RAW, Targeting Torso doesn't stack with Imp Crit. I feel like if the designers had wanted to, then they would have specifically said so. Think of it this way: Do you know of ANY way to legally have a Scythe threaten a crit on 17-20? I don't and I think...
so why did they change the wording on targeting torso in round 2, after it being explicity discussed in round 1?