Like the title says, the whole "free hand to load" thing skews the entire class toward muskets and two handed weapons.
They do more damage and they go farther and totally ruin the concept the iconic is based on.
In order to make "her" I have taken TWF, quick draw, weapon juggle (non core)... three feats that let me shoot as long as I have preloaded pistols.
Again, back to over-favoring two handed weapons with greater touch range and damage and you can take one hand off to reload? Lame.
A magus can't spell combat by taking his hand off a two handed weapon, it "needs to be free the entire round" but for a two handed gun "free hand" has a different meaning, I cry bunk and unbalance.
Like the title says, the whole "free hand to load" thing skews the entire class toward muskets and two handed weapons.
They do more damage and they go farther and totally ruin the concept the iconic is based on.In order to make "her" I have taken TWF, quick draw, weapon juggle (non core)... three feats that let me shoot as long as I have preloaded pistols.
Again, back to over-favoring two handed weapons with greater touch range and damage and you can take one hand off to reload? Lame.
A magus can't spell combat by taking his hand off a two handed weapon, it "needs to be free the entire round" but for a two handed gun "free hand" has a different meaning, I cry bunk and unbalance.
Didn't Stephen also say there was going to be a feat in Ultimate Combat that let them reload without any free hands?
Like the title says, the whole "free hand to load" thing skews the entire class toward muskets and two handed weapons.
They do more damage and they go farther and totally ruin the concept the iconic is based on.In order to make "her" I have taken TWF, quick draw, weapon juggle (non core)... three feats that let me shoot as long as I have preloaded pistols.
Again, back to over-favoring two handed weapons with greater touch range and damage and you can take one hand off to reload? Lame.
A magus can't spell combat by taking his hand off a two handed weapon, it "needs to be free the entire round" but for a two handed gun "free hand" has a different meaning, I cry bunk and unbalance.
its not uncommon to see a western gunslinger take one hand off his rifle to reload it. the problem with TWF with pistols and revolvers and such is you eventually have to reload or buy more guns. I say if you add in an ability like a deed where you just have to have one grit point to use or a feat that allows you to rapidly reload your revolvers while you are TWF, like tucking one underneath your arm and vice versa, and making it a move or standard action to reload both guns fully wouldnt be too bad.
Didn't Stephen also say there was going to be a feat in Ultimate Combat that let them reload without any free hands?Like the title says, the whole "free hand to load" thing skews the entire class toward muskets and two handed weapons.
They do more damage and they go farther and totally ruin the concept the iconic is based on.In order to make "her" I have taken TWF, quick draw, weapon juggle (non core)... three feats that let me shoot as long as I have preloaded pistols.
Again, back to over-favoring two handed weapons with greater touch range and damage and you can take one hand off to reload? Lame.
A magus can't spell combat by taking his hand off a two handed weapon, it "needs to be free the entire round" but for a two handed gun "free hand" has a different meaning, I cry bunk and unbalance.
yes but now we get MORE feat tax.
Now I got TWF, 'Arm Pit Stuffer' (or whatever he will call it) and whatever I need to make the concept roll.
The Two handed gun doesn't require this to be reloaded. I think it gets off scott-free on the "free hand required to reload" issue. I think It should be something 'free' available at higher levels for the gunslinger.
The more 'feats you make up, the more impossible it will be to make a dual wielding gun slinger.
Seriously, has anyone TRIED to make a TWF ranged character before??
its not uncommon to see a western gunslinger take one hand off his rifle to reload it. the problem with TWF with pistols and revolvers and such is you eventually have to reload or buy more guns. I say if you add in an ability like a deed where you just have to have one grit point to use or a feat that allows you to rapidly reload your revolvers while you are TWF, like tucking one underneath your arm and vice versa, and making it a move or standard action to reload both guns fully wouldnt be too bad.Like the title says, the whole "free hand to load" thing skews the entire class toward muskets and two handed weapons.
They do more damage and they go farther and totally ruin the concept the iconic is based on.In order to make "her" I have taken TWF, quick draw, weapon juggle (non core)... three feats that let me shoot as long as I have preloaded pistols.
Again, back to over-favoring two handed weapons with greater touch range and damage and you can take one hand off to reload? Lame.
A magus can't spell combat by taking his hand off a two handed weapon, it "needs to be free the entire round" but for a two handed gun "free hand" has a different meaning, I cry bunk and unbalance.
while i agree with that there is still the disparity between a 'free hand' for the gunslinger and a 'free hand' for the magus.
The bigger gun already gets goodies, the 'free hand' shouldnt swing one way for one class and the other way for the other class.
As it stands now, there will be a big drive of this class to push you in the direction of the two handed gun over the pistols.
Just take quick draw and use weapon cords. When you're empty drop you gun as a free action, use your free hand to load it as a free action, then quick draw it as a free action. Done.
Didn't Stephen also say there was going to be a feat in Ultimate Combat that let them reload without any free hands?Like the title says, the whole "free hand to load" thing skews the entire class toward muskets and two handed weapons.
They do more damage and they go farther and totally ruin the concept the iconic is based on.In order to make "her" I have taken TWF, quick draw, weapon juggle (non core)... three feats that let me shoot as long as I have preloaded pistols.
Again, back to over-favoring two handed weapons with greater touch range and damage and you can take one hand off to reload? Lame.
A magus can't spell combat by taking his hand off a two handed weapon, it "needs to be free the entire round" but for a two handed gun "free hand" has a different meaning, I cry bunk and unbalance.
yes but now we get MORE feat tax.
Now I got TWF, 'Arm Pit Stuffer' (or whatever he will call it) and whatever I need to make the concept roll.
The Two handed gun doesn't require this to be reloaded. I think it gets off scott-free on the "free hand required to reload" issue. I think It should be something 'free' available at higher levels for the gunslinger.
The more 'feats you make up, the more impossible it will be to make a dual wielding gun slinger.
Seriously, has anyone TRIED to make a TWF ranged character before??
the only way you could is with throwing weapons or hand or light crossbows.
I say make a deed specific for a person who builds the character out of the class with that concept. that way you could pick it up as a deed (playing with the good idea of being able to PICK deeds) and then you wont really be missing out on much, since youre gonna have to give up something (feat, deed, etc) to get this ability. make it as long as you have one grit point to use.
then STILL make a feat, for people who want to do the same thing with fighters and such.
Just take quick draw and use weapon cords. When you're empty drop you gun as a free action, use your free hand to load it as a free action, then quick draw it as a free action. Done.
Im the one who mentioned weapon cords originally in round 1 (the musketeers used them for horse driven ride-by-attacks) but...they seem like cheese, however, this MIGHT be necessary cheese.
Anybody ever wondered how the iconic gunslinger even AFFORDS her second pistol? Gunslinger starting gold must be crazy.
-The Beast
While fighting with two pistols is even more unrealistic than fighting with two melee weapons, in a fantasy world it´s quite stylish to do so - and when someone asks me about the most iconic fantasy gunslinger, it conjures up the mighty picture of roland deschain, last gunslinger of gilead. Reloading two pistols at once is a vital part of this character - I plead for making it a sole feat without any need of Quickdraw. It´s still no free action as reloading a bow is.
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Just take quick draw and use weapon cords. When you're empty drop you gun as a free action, use your free hand to load it as a free action, then quick draw it as a free action. Done.Im the one who mentioned weapon cords originally in round 1 (the musketeers used them for horse driven ride-by-attacks) but...they seem like cheese, however, this MIGHT be necessary cheese.
take the cord cheese
take the cord cheese
String cheese?
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If you look at a great number of 1850-1880 revolvers they have a cord tie on the butt of the weapon for use by the US calvery and others that rode hores.
Make a Gunslinger only feat Gunslinger quickdraw that allows a gunslinger to quickdraw his weapon fire and reholster his weapon as a standard action.
This sholud be no problem from a game stand point as IRL a traind western quickdraw compitition shooter can draw his weapon fire all six rounds and reholster his weapon in less than 6 seconds hitting all
rond within the ten ring of a targeret.
For advanced firearms a feat should be made for rapid fire.
ex Raipd Fire: a gun slinger with a Rifle or revolver can fire up to the capactcty of his firearm at a single targetResloving all of his attacks at his highest BAB-2 and following all of the rules for the deadeye class ability.
Some on these boards have to take into account a single hero can only do so much in six seconds. It boaders in the realm of physical imposibility to daraw fire and reload a blackpodwer fre arm in six seconds.
The reloading problem is why almost all western gunfighters carried several revolvers and if the were mounted shotguns or rifles.
I'll give two examples Wyatt Earp caried several revolvers at lest tw on his gunbelt one a righthanded holster his lefthand holster was a cross draw holseter. Doc holiday also carried three or more revlovers
as wel as a hide out derringer. Let us not forget the Otlaw josey wales caried four revolvers and two rifles. Josey wales was base on a real oerson who rode with Quantrils Raiders. He was one of the few gunfighters that did TWF.
Most gunfigters in the old west only used thir domiante hand.
Just a side note about the gunslinger six shooter quick draw thing.
Sure they can draw, fire, hit the target and reholster in six seconds, but what alot of people do not know is those pistols are firing either .32 or .22 cal bullets with about a quarter the powder of a 'combat charge'.
That would be the equivalent of whipping out the pistol and giving someone a barrage of 1d4-1's....yea! Im bAd!
No one can actually do that trick with hot loads on a 45 or heaven forbid a 44 mag, which, in combat are the loads you want in a pistol.
As far as the iconic goes (and I think Pazio should call her "Dusty Bottoms" in tribute to the Three Amigos) ALL the Iconics are drawn at the 'pinnacle' of their career, not at first level... some Iconics are sporting meta magic rods...they don't afford those at first level either.
Some on these boards have to take into account a single hero can only do so much in six seconds. It boaders in the realm of physical imposibility to daraw fire and reload a blackpodwer fre arm in six seconds.
The reloading problem is why almost all western gunfighters carried several revolvers and if the were mounted shotguns or rifles.
I'll give two examples Wyatt Earp caried several revolvers at lest tw on his gunbelt one a righthanded holster his lefthand holster was a cross draw holseter. Doc holiday also carried three or more revlovers
as wel as a hide out derringer. Let us not forget the Otlaw josey wales caried four revolvers and two rifles. Josey wales was base on a real oerson who rode with Quantrils Raiders. He was one of the few gunfighters that did TWF.Most gunfigters in the old west only used thir domiante hand.
Actually, it was highly uncommon to carry more than one revolver, as, for most working folks (especially the cowboy) a peacemaker represented two months pay...pretty pricey.
The most famous double pistol fighter by far was Wild Bill Hickok who was rather well to do as a successful gambler.
Hickok however never carried cartridge revolvers as his heyday was prior to the advent of the 1873 peacemaker.
1851 Colt Navy's were his preferred weapon.
The trouble with trying to recreate gunfighters like this is, in a gun fight you seldom need more than six shots.... most opponents would have had about 3-6 hit points.
Everyone died pretty fast.
Wyatt Earp was comparatively rich as well, but never used the 'drop' reload. His favored pistol was a Smith and Wesson No. 3 american, which opens at the breach and quick ejects all the expended casings at once, it can be reloaded much more efficiently than the contemporary colts of the era.
Doc Holiday was known to fight with two guns, but was also known to carry a colt 'lightening' an early double action revolver..
Doc carried extra pistols not because of 'drop' reload, but concealment.
his 'day' pistol worn in normal cowboy style in a holster was the one he openly and publicly surrendered when such was necessary (certain towns, gambling halls etc) The lightening was worn in a shoulder rig under his traveling coat and he had a "bird's head" grip sherrifs model (3 inch barrel) in the small of his back. The derringer was most often in his boot.
This way, he always had a pistol handy no matter what position he was in, or where his hands were.
Josey Wales fought Southern Rebel Cavalry style, which means a brace of pistols because reloading wasn't an option at full gallop.
Josey's pistols were an odd sort, however as they were dragoon models, The dragoon model of the 1847 walker allowed the cylinders to be taken out and replaced with preloaded cylinders, as this was a cap and ball revolver, it greatly sped up the process of reloading (similar to putting a new magazine in a modern automatic weapon)
Josey's back up was an 1861 richards conversion colt, which actually fires cartridge ammo, and his 1849 'pocket' is pretty much a 'hold out' pistol.
As a side note, the 1847 Walker was the worlds most powerful handgun all the way from its creation until the .44 magnum was introduced in the 1960s. It's ironic Clint Eastwood wielded both 44s in his films in eras where they were the most powerful handgun.
Just because the iconic is holding 2 DB Pistols doesn't mean that she is able to fire all four barrels and reload them all in time to do the same thing next round. Seriously, have any of you ever tried to reload even a modern, magazine fed pistol without a freehand? It ain't easy. And unless you have a speed loader, reloading a revolver (even with modern metal cartridges) takes longer than 6 seconds usually.
Besides, assuming she's using paper cartridges, which would reduce the time taken to reload, it still wouldn't allow her to reload more than a single barrel in 6 seconds. Real paper cartridges don't work like metal ones. You can't just push them into the gun and have them work. You have to tear the top off, pour the powder charge down the barrel, remove excess paper while being sure to keep just enough around the round to ensure a tight fit, ram the round down the barrel, replace the percussion cap (assuming its not a flintlock), level/aim, and fire.
In before: If guns worked realistically in Pathfinder/D&D/etc, they wouldn't be worth using at all...
Personally, I don't think you ever need to be able to reload a pistol with no hands because you're TWF with them. Just use a single Double-Barreled Pistol. So far, RAW and ruling wise by Stephen, you can reload both barrels just fine as free actions and "Double Tap" every shot in a full attack making it basically the same as TWFing. Except that both shots from the "Double Tap" have to target the same enemy.
REally? So feats like multi-shot, letting loose three arrows from the same bow at a target and hitting are possible?
How about getting off 7 arrows in 6 seconds, at different targets, possible?
So we should just go back and errata those feats, because IRL they are not possible?
Besides, assuming she's using paper cartridges, which would reduce the time taken to reload, it still wouldn't allow her to reload more than a single barrel in 6 seconds. Real paper cartridges don't work like metal ones. You can't just push them into the gun and have them work. You have to tear the top off, pour the powder charge down the barrel, remove excess paper while being sure to keep just enough around the round to ensure a tight fit, ram the round down the barrel, replace the percussion cap (assuming its not a flintlock), level/aim, and fire.
This is not true of all paper cartridges. Some breach-loading firearms used paper cartridges that were similar to metal cartridges and shotgun shells. Additionally, some percussion revolvers inserted paper cartidges whole and were rammed into place. The paper was soaked in nitrate to help ignite the powder.
You may also want to notice that she uses a double-barrel pistol. That's four shots before she has to put one away and reload.
So far, RAW and ruling wise by Stephen, you can reload both barrels just fine as free actions and "Double Tap" every shot in a full attack making it basically the same as TWFing. Except that both shots from the "Double Tap" have to target the same enemy.
Though the RAW wording of the ruling does support the idea that you can double tap with every attack in a full attack routine, I don't think this was Stephen's intent at all.
Notice how he said "If I fire as part of a full-attack action, it is one of those attacks, but two attack rolls."
He strongly hints that you can only do it for one attack out of a full attack routine.
So far, RAW and ruling wise by Stephen, you can reload both barrels just fine as free actions and "Double Tap" every shot in a full attack making it basically the same as TWFing. Except that both shots from the "Double Tap" have to target the same enemy.Though the RAW wording of the ruling does support the idea that you can double tap with every attack in a full attack routine, I don't think this was Stephen's intent at all.
Notice how he said "If I fire as part of a full-attack action, it is one of those attacks, but two attack rolls."
He strongly hints that you can only do it for one attack out of a full attack routine.
My thread where I asked him explicitly says otherwise.
EDIT: Now with linky goodness!
Actually, it was highly uncommon to carry more than one revolver, as, for most working folks (especially the cowboy) a peacemaker represented two months pay...pretty pricey.
Question is, is it uncommon for common people (like cowboys) or is it uncommon for "heroes" like Wyatt Earp. PCs are no commoners, they don't roll by the same rules as them.
Just because the iconic is holding 2 DB Pistols doesn't mean that she is able to fire all four barrels and reload them all in time to do the same thing next round. Seriously, have any of you ever tried to reload even a modern, magazine fed pistol without a freehand? It ain't easy. And unless you have a speed loader, reloading a revolver (even with modern metal cartridges) takes longer than 6 seconds usually.
Trying stuff like that is futile for us since of course such stuff is not easy. We're talking about guys who are dedicated to gunslinging, comparable in their dedication to shaolin monks (since the monk class is derived from them), and it would be quite unwise to try to imitate the stuff they do, could break ones bones or neck.
In top of that, realism is only concerned as far as the suspension of disbelief is involved. Far more importand are style and game balance.
Trying stuff like that is futile for us since of course such stuff is not easy. We're talking about guys who are dedicated to gunslinging, comparable in their dedication to shaolin monks (since the monk class is derived from them), and it would be quite unwise to try to imitate the stuff they do, could break ones bones or neck.
Without appropriate training, and dedication. Common people humans did it once humans will do it again -- it's not outside the realm of possible anymore than it was when it was first done -- it simply isn't easy.
Possible and easy are not the same thing -- lets not grow complacent in our deeds for fear of danger or difficulty.
Well Wyatt Earp didnt carry extra pistols as he used the Smith and Wesson No3 American with the 8 inch barrel as his favored pistol (at least during his stay in tomb stone)
So in that case he could reload the entire pistol as a free action (essentially) and didnt have need for extra pistols.
You may also want to notice that she uses a double-barrel pistol. That's four shots before she has to put one away and reload.
I do something similar with my gunslinger, I just have more pistols.
Dusty Bottoms
Level 8 Human Male Gunslinger
Str 12
Dex 20 (+2 belt)
Con 11
Int 14
Wis 16
Cha 11
HP66
Ac 22 (+1 chain shirt,dex, +1 amulet, dodge feat)
Carries 6 mwk pistols.
feats :dodge, rapid reload, mobility, quickdraw, TWF, Deft shootist, Improved crit pistol, Combat reflexes.
If pistol whip isn't changed, I guess Combat reflexes will become catch off guard. but right now, im house ruling that it will change.
I use weapon cords a little differently, as I'm hanging the pistols, not trying to recover them, per se. So I draw, fire, drop and Draw. Once the pistols have been expended, I can choose to reload and fire (usually a move and a move to walk while reloading) or hide and reload or whatever.
The TWF thing is really only touch AC weapons blazing for my character. I just use the weapon cords so that the weapons arent all over the battlefield.
If this doesnt get eratta'd or changed, there is still 3PP feat "weapon juggle" or the new unnamed feat.
But double barreled pistols would be neat because id carry twice the amount of preloaded shot, and if I had a baddy right in front of me i needed to pound I could let go with all four barrels.
How about a Glove of Storing? To assist with having a free hand to reload.
How about a Glove of Storing? To assist with having a free hand to reload.
Oooo magical item cheese. Problem with that is then every gunslinger has a glove of storing, bleck!
This is not true of all paper cartridges. Some breach-loading firearms used paper cartridges that were similar to metal cartridges and shotgun shells. Additionally, some percussion revolvers inserted paper cartridges whole and were rammed into place. The paper was soaked in nitrate to help ignite the powder.
I did not know about that so thank you for the information. :)
REally? So feats like multi-shot, letting loose three arrows from the same bow at a target and hitting are possible?
How about getting off 7 arrows in 6 seconds, at different targets, possible?
I've always thought of fantasy RPGs like Pathfinder as a place where you can "suspend disbelief" as Ksorkrax stated and do that crazy stuff that you see happen in movies all of the time, but know would never work IRL. I've seen those bow trick shots in movies multiple times, but I've never seen an "Early" firearm reloaded that quickly even in a movie. I'm not saying it isn't out there, just that I've never personally seen it.
Personally, I like Gignere's idea of the supernatural ability later on in the Gunslinger progression or just the creation of the magical everlasting round. The problem with that however is that it will highly favor certain firearms at later levels and make others completely pointless. Why have a Pepperbox pistol where you'd need 6 of these magical cartridges when you could just buy 1 for your Pistol and do the same thing or 2 for you DB Pistol and "DT" all day long? Of course, later levels already favor 2handed guns as it is.
movies are as fantasy as this game is.
how 'fast' really IS a free action?
1 second?
problem with a game round is someone put a 'real time' associated with it, long ago.
Stuff a pair of paper cartridges down the double barrel, follow with ram rod, replace ram rod, repeat. Two double barrels loaded,, how fast?
Considering the time it even takes to put two or three arrows on a bow string and fire a bow? Im willing to go on a little faith the gunslinger can pluck alchemical cartridges just as fast as the archer can pluck multiple arrows with one hand.
I don't think I ever stated anything that made it seem like I believe that movies are any more/less fantasy than this game. If I did or you misread it, then I apologize for not being clearer in my statements.
But you raise a good point:How long is a free action really? Dropping an item or your character to prone is free action that IRL takes about as long to accomplish as this thought in your mind "DROP". Ceasing concentration on a spell takes about the same amount of time, probably a little less since its just a thought. There is no reaction delay from your muscles needing to be activated. So I guess free actions are about as quick as thoughts? Maybe a little slower. Just thinking about the reloading process for switching hands and reloading two one handed guns takes enough time (in my mind) to only allow one doubletap from each gun in 6 secs, assuming DB pistols. But that's just me.
You're right about the arrow thing being ridiculous. The probability of grabbing three arrows at once, pulling just those three from the quiver without spilling arrows everywhere, nocking all three perfectly to the string at once first try, and then managing to release all three at once and hit the target are pretty much impossible.
But now that I've rethought about it, isn't the problem more about needing a freehand to reload? You need a free hand to draw the arrows. I think you should always need a free hand to reload the gun unless magic is used to solve the problem. Maybe the solution, since guns are supposed to be different by design, would be to limit the number of free action barrel reloads to a maximum number each round? I really don't know any more...
I guess, in a way, the weapon cord solves some of the problems. I like your build, btw. Mostly because it seems like you're trying to bring some reality in to it while leaving it fun to play. I bet that first turn is ridiculous! lol My main problem is really the OVER THE TOP min-maxers who will TWFing doubletap every single attack with both guns and think that's anywhere near fair. Fix it with magic items/properties and I'll have very little room to complain. That or make it a string of feats and give the gunslinger more feats. They really do need more anyway to try and compete with a ranger or fighter archer.
I'm not interested in TWF though. Too much of a feat tax for this class right now.
Can you give me your opinion on this, Pendaghast?
http://paizo.com/paizo/messageboards/paizoPublishing/pathfinder/pathfinderR PG/ultimateCombatPlaytest/gunslingerRound2/makingAGunslingerNeedALotClarifi ed
...But now that I've rethought about it, isn't the problem more about needing a freehand to reload? You need a free hand to draw the arrows. I think you should always need a free hand to reload the gun unless magic is used to solve the problem. Maybe the solution, since guns are supposed to be different by design, would be to limit the number of free action barrel reloads to a maximum number each round? I really don't know any more...
Since the gunslinger is supposed to be the quintessential firearm expert - reloading, firing, etc. - I've been trying to come up with something that could solve the full-attack quantry vs.the reload speed. Your comment here about the number of free actionreloads per round inspired me to post the following suggestion to be added to the Gun Training feature. I figured that was the best place to implant it for the class anyways. Tell me what you guys think. I posted this in another thread, but haven't heard much yet.
"...In addition to the bonuses to the gunslinger’s attack and damage rolls with various firearms, she greatly improves her reloading skills and speed. Beginning at 6th level, if the gunslinger has Rapid Reload, whenever she uses the Lighting Reload Deed and alchemical cartridges, she can reload a single barrel firearm twice per round. At 11th level, the gunslinger can reload a single barrel three times per round, and at 16th level, up to four times per round. Each reload action occurs as a free action and must be taken either before or after the gunslinger discharges her firearm. This allows the gunslinger to make a full-attack action during her turn."
It's a simple way, within the rule and class structure of the game to allow gunslingers (and them alone) be able to use their full-attacks with firearms, and not have to resort to Dead Shot as the only way to get their full-attacks. Thoughts?
How about a Glove of Storing? To assist with having a free hand to reload.Oooo magical item cheese. Problem with that is then every gunslinger has a glove of storing, bleck!
Not really, and like you said there's the weapon cord. I wasn't saying it fixes the problem, but rather it's a neat magic item to have for this kind of character (dual pistols). I doubt rifle/musket builds would see any need for it.
I like it for the surprise hidden weapon factor myself, and consider getting this item for practically any combat character build.
You remember some movies where that one guy never seems to run out of bullets? Either he has some magical weapon that never runs out, or he's so quick on reloading it's done between scenes (or more likely reloading was dropped because it detracted from the cinematic).
This is a trope that a person with free action reloading should be able to pull off. That, and Secret Stash set with Signature Deed (he never runs out of bullets, and reloading happens instantly).
How about a Glove of Storing? To assist with having a free hand to reload.Oooo magical item cheese. Problem with that is then every gunslinger has a glove of storing, bleck!Not really, and like you said there's the weapon cord. I wasn't saying it fixes the problem, but rather it's a neat magic item to have for this kind of character (dual pistols). I doubt rifle/musket builds would see any need for it.
I like it for the surprise hidden weapon factor myself, and consider getting this item for practically any combat character build.
We were playing with the idea of the witch in our party casting unseen servant to follow the gunslinger around and reload his pistols while they were dangling from the weapon cord.
Havent done that yet, still trying to figure out if I like the taste of limburger.
Hmm.. I'm not sure how I'd let that play out as a DM. The weapon cords are already dangling from your wrists (as per the description), so it already makes fine motor skills stuff tough.
Having something grabbing it and pulling ammo out of your pockets to reload for you? I might start applying a penalty or rule it doesn't really speed things up for you.
I mean... think of someone standing next to you and trying to reload a gun attached to your wrist by a cord, and using the ammo in your pockets. While you tried to shoot or reload yourself.
.
If I were going with advanced firearms anyways (so revolvers and metal cartridges), I'd rather play it out that you can reload the whole thing as a move action normally... with a speed loader. I'd even allow up to half movement while doing it (alternating looking down at the gun and looking at where you are going, etc).
Without a speedloader, I'd say it'd take a move action for 1 metal cartridge, or all 6 in a full round action (of course, allowing half speed movement).
Basically, you buy a number of those speedloaders, and load up your ammo in the morning (or when you have time), at a more regular pace. Then in the middle of combat you can pull one out and pop in six shots fairly quickly.
With training (rapid reload), you could do it as a free action (or all six without a speedloader as a move action). It'd still require two hands, but you could pick up a feat (that had TWF and possibly quickdraw as a prerequisite) that'd let you hold two revolvers in one hand and quickly load both using speedloaders.
Then, I'd have weapon enhancements that allow unlimited ammo (never needing reloading), with higher costs for specialized ammo (adamantine might be quite expensive).
I also like the idea of the Iron Kingdoms magegun, which allowed a caster to cast a spell into the gun and fire a mage-shot, using the shot to deliver a touch or ray spell (or an area effect spell, such as a fireball or cloudkill).
That's all just personal homebrew ideas though. Probably doesn't help you with any core rules methods of fixing the problem.
I do something similar with my gunslinger, I just have more pistols.
Dusty Bottoms
Level 8 Human Male GunslingerStr 12
Dex 20 (+2 belt)
Con 11
Int 14
Wis 16
Cha 11HP66
Ac 22 (+1 chain shirt,dex, +1 amulet, dodge feat)Carries 6 mwk pistols.
feats :dodge, rapid reload, mobility, quickdraw, TWF, Deft shootist, Improved crit pistol, Combat reflexes.
What do you do when you run into a creature with damage reduction? Unless I'm missing something you're only doing 1d8+5 on a hit which averages out to only 9 damage per (1gp1sp) shot which will become 4 against anything with even DR5/Magic. Go higher like DR10/Magic or DR5/10/Good and you'll barely do anything unless you crit. That's atrocious.
Question: Are you playing in a low magic campaign?
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If we're going for realism, shouldn't the guns be much more dangerous to the people using them then any opponents they fight? After all more people died in the great western migration across the US to self inflicted gunshot wounds then those caused by others.
Plus we'd also have to give the gunfighter some kind of bluff bonus based upon the fact that most of the famous gunfighters and outlaws in history greatly and intentionally inflated their own legends. Need that in there definitely.
Since the gunslinger is supposed to be the quintessential firearm expert - reloading, firing, etc. - I've been trying to come up with something that could solve the full-attack quantry vs.the reload speed. Your comment here about the number of free actionreloads per round inspired me to post the following suggestion to be added to the Gun Training feature. I figured that was the best place to implant it for the class anyways. Tell me what you guys think. I posted this in another thread, but haven't heard much yet."...In addition to the bonuses to the gunslinger’s attack and damage rolls with various firearms, she greatly improves her reloading skills and speed. Beginning at 6th level, if the gunslinger has Rapid Reload, whenever she uses the Lighting Reload Deed and alchemical cartridges, she can reload a single barrel firearm twice per round. At 11th level, the gunslinger can reload a single barrel three times per round, and at 16th level, up to four times per round. Each reload action occurs as a free action and must be taken either before or after the gunslinger discharges her firearm. This allows the gunslinger to make a full-attack action during her turn."
It's a simple way, within the rule and class structure of the game to allow gunslingers (and them alone) be able to use their full-attacks with firearms, and not have to resort to Dead Shot as the only way to get their full-attacks. Thoughts?
Hmm... Its nice, but here's my problem with it and this isn't your fault at all. You have to wait until 11th level to get it now. Honest question: Have you read the new gunslinger round 2 playtest?
Hmm... Its nice, but here's my problem with it and this isn't your fault at all. You have to wait until 11th level to get it now. Honest question: Have you read the new gunslinger round 2 playtest?
(No snarkiness in my statement) Yes, I have read it. And like many others suggested, in my "Proposal for the Gunslinger Final Version" thread, I had moved Lighting Reload to an earlier Deed level, specifically 3rd level. I wrote my adendum to the Gun Training based on that assumption. Whether the Devs will do that, that's another story. But, what I have written could easily be adapted to the Lighting Reload gain at 11th, which I think is way too late.
If they moved it to even 7th (11th level version in brackets), the level changes could simply read...
"...In addition to the bonuses to the gunslinger’s attack and damage rolls with various firearms, she greatly improves her reloading skills and speed. Beginning at 8th (12th) level, if the gunslinger has Rapid Reload, whenever she uses the Lighting Reload Deed and alchemical cartridges, she can reload a single barrel firearm twice per round. At 12th (15th) level, the gunslinger can reload a single barrel three times per round, and at 16th (18th) level, up to four times per round. Each reload action occurs as a free action and must be taken either before or after the gunslinger discharges her firearm. This allows the gunslinger to make a full-attack action during her turn."
I also like the idea of the Iron Kingdoms magegun, which allowed a caster to cast a spell into the gun and fire a mage-shot, using the shot to deliver a touch or ray spell (or an area effect spell, such as a fireball or cloudkill).
Well since I DM an IK game I will explain, the mage gun is not a gun. it is a ability for the Gunmage to cast certain spells IE rays through his weapon, later on if the gunmage has a Magelock Firearm, this using a mechanic similar to the Familiar or the Arcane Archer, places spells in a special Bullet.
This mechanic requires 2 standard actions.
But outside of a Prestige class, their is one for Gun mage, they can't deliver anything else but touch spells ranged and melee.
In essence the Gun mage is a ranged version of the duskblade AKA Magus.
I do something similar with my gunslinger, I just have more pistols.
Dusty Bottoms
Level 8 Human Male GunslingerStr 12
Dex 20 (+2 belt)
Con 11
Int 14
Wis 16
Cha 11HP66
Ac 22 (+1 chain shirt,dex, +1 amulet, dodge feat)Carries 6 mwk pistols.
feats :dodge, rapid reload, mobility, quickdraw, TWF, Deft shootist, Improved crit pistol, Combat reflexes.What do you do when you run into a creature with damage reduction? Unless I'm missing something you're only doing 1d8+5 on a hit which averages out to only 9 damage per (1gp1sp) shot which will become 4 against anything with even DR5/Magic. Go higher like DR10/Magic or DR5/10/Good and you'll barely do anything unless you crit. That's atrocious.
Question: Are you playing in a low magic campaign?
We pretty much play in low magic most of the time.
For example, we are in Serpents Skull and very few things we have, have been bought, the vast ,majority of things are just the magic that is handed out in the AP.Amoung the things we have that aren;t IN the AP, are two +3 shields (which were randomly rolled at the magic shop in elder. A +1 chain shirt, a +2 cloak of res, and I think... that's about it, just stuff that was randomly rolled and available for sale in eleder, according the city size, magic items available etc etc. we just rolled it like random treasure and bought what we could afford.
I'm thinking of including an 'ancient' azlanti magic dragon pistol as treasure somewhere int he AP.
We will be having a rod of seven parts (so to speak) as an on going magic item to 'collect' for the rest of the campaign.
For handling DR critters I can still dead shot, which would give me 2d8 +5.
I could use some different shot if I wanted, (like silver or adamantine) depending ON the DR.
I'm curious, I haven't looked ahead in the AP far enough to find anything with DR but im sure it's there.
One of the casters could cast magic weapon for me for the DR/Magic.
the Gunslinger does lack decent damage progression by level. which is why I focused on the crit part of the character. He does actually crit pretty good with the rewrite in targeting torso (which allows improved crit to stack) giving me a 17-20 crit threat on x4. So it is pretty good.
as I go up in level the dead shot will get better (eventually 3d8+5)
does that dex damage only get added in once on dead shot? thats kinda how I'm reading it.
Bu 11th level, some corrosive pistols would be nice. Poisonous pistols would be cool too, as would thundering.
(No snarkiness in my statement) Yes, I have read it. And like many others suggested, in my "Proposal for the Gunslinger Final Version" thread, I had moved Lighting Reload to an earlier Deed level, specifically 3rd level. I wrote my adendum to the Gun Training based on that assumption. Whether the Devs will do that, that's another story. But, what I have written could easily be adapted to the Lighting Reload gain at 11th, which I think is way too late.
Oh, okay. lol I thought you just might not know that it got moved to level 11 because I haven't gotten around to reading that particular thread yet. I didn't feel like I could really back up any ideas I might have until I played the class so I avoided going there. I didn't mean any snarkiness either, just in case. :)
Umm... I personally agree with you that Lightening Reload needs to be moved down. 3rd level would be nice because then if your wizard cast haste you'd actually be able to take advantage of it, but I'd settle for it at 7th so they could keep their current Deed progression rate. Though admittedly I'd rather see it 6th so I could make my second attack without needing a more expensive gun like a DB or Pepperbox Pistol or a second gun. Right now 6th level just seems like a dead level in the class. :/
We pretty much play in low magic most of the time.
For example, we are in Serpents Skull and very few things we have, have been bought, the vast ,majority of things are just the magic that is handed out in the AP.
Amoung the things we have that aren;t IN the AP, are two +3 shields (which were randomly rolled at the magic shop in elder. A +1 chain shirt, a +2 cloak of res, and I think... that's about it, just stuff that was randomly rolled and available for sale in eleder, according the city size, magic items available etc etc. we just rolled it like random treasure and bought what we could afford.I'm thinking of including an 'ancient' azlanti magic dragon pistol as treasure somewhere int he AP.
We will be having a rod of seven parts (so to speak) as an on going magic item to 'collect' for the rest of the campaign.
For handling DR critters I can still dead shot, which would give me 2d8 +5.
I could use some different shot if I wanted, (like silver or adamantine) depending ON the DR.
I'm curious, I haven't looked ahead in the AP far enough to find anything with DR but im sure it's there.
One of the casters could cast magic weapon for me for the DR/Magic.the Gunslinger does lack decent damage progression by level. which is why I focused on the crit part of the character. He does actually crit pretty good with the rewrite in targeting torso (which allows improved crit to stack) giving me a 17-20 crit threat on x4. So it is pretty good.
as I go up in level the dead shot will get better (eventually 3d8+5)
does that dex damage only get added in once on dead shot? thats kinda how I'm reading it.
I thought that might be it. Things make much more sense now. In most of the games I've played (all homebrew/no prefabs) magic has usually been relatively plentiful. At least in the larger capital cities anyways. Now that most of our party is level 9 half of the things we're fighting have DR of one kind or another. Fricking demons, man! :P What is the AP? Adventure path?
Where is the part about Targeting Torso stacking with Improved Critical? Maybe I have an older version, but I haven't read that anywhere. That would be very nice though, if a bit broken since I can't think of any other weapon that could get a 17-20/x4 crit. Add a burst quality to the gun? That's threatening death by massive damage easy. And yes, the way I'm reading it, only the damage die gets multiplied. Anything else only gets multiplied on a confirmed critical and then you'd get to multiply the extra straight damage, but not stuff from weapon properties like flaming. The way I'm reading it anyway.
It would make total sense for a TWF Gunslinger to just carry more guns... except that guns cost a zillion gp.
The revised gunslinger they put out changes the wording to targeting torso, before it said targeting torso doubles the crit range of the affect attack, now it says targeting torso threatens on a 19-20, which means it can be effected by improved crit or keen. I like improved crit because A) im working with ALOT of pistols and B) keen doesn't fit "ball" ammo to me...even though it's 'piercing'
The revised gunslinger they put out changes the wording to targeting torso, before it said targeting torso doubles the crit range of the affect attack, now it says targeting torso threatens on a 19-20, which means it can be effected by improved crit or keen. I like improved crit because A) im working with ALOT of pistols and B) keen doesn't fit "ball" ammo to me...even though it's 'piercing'
Improved Critical species it doesn't work with any other ability that increases crit range.