Okay, time to review the revised rules.
First Glance
I think that the inclusion of the additional gun rules and sidebars drastically helps in alleviating a lot of concerns regarding this class. I'm glad they were included.
Overall, between the minor tweaks in the class, and the additional gun rules, I can see this class falling into the "playable" category now, and hopefully it can be "awesome" too.
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I'm going to divide my review between the Gunslinger class itself, and the gun rules, since we now have them to look over. I'll start with the gun rules themselves because it's shorter to review, and because it helps put the class into context.
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FIREARM RULES
Truly, the only way to make everyone happy was to give the option of "firearm era" up to the GM. I think this really keeps the best of both worlds, in that people can decide how much firearm they have in their gaming, like how much salt they want on their food.
I like that "advanced" weapons are made an option, and I especially like seeing the idea of cartridges, even for non-advanced weaponry. The alchemical cartridges make me think of Iron Kingdoms, and I like it a lot.
Metal cartridges makes it so we can play a good ol' fashioned western. I can even envision a pulp, Dresden Files sort of gumshoe game now, with magic and firearms existing in an advanced civilization that uses magic and technology interchangeably.
The Downsides
Okay, I'm not a huge fan of the "touch AC" idea. I far preferred the idea of resolving against Flatfooted AC instead (harder to dodge in shorter ranges, with the caveat of not setting off Sneak Attack unless they'd otherwise be denied dexterity (they can still protect vitals, just not avoid the shot in general as easily).
This is beyond the actual balance reasons (which playtests will confirm or deny as an issue). It's a thematic issue for me, and I'd like to see playtests using flatfooted AC.
Overall though, I like the new weapons and ammo, and the option for making them cheaper (both in the feats and choosing an era).
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THE GUNSLINGER CLASS
I'm going to go through each section, but I'll have the Deeds and Feats in spoilers, because they'll be quite long.
Class Skills
The addition of Perception, Sleight of Hand, and Survival are really good. They add much needed Wisdom-based skills (since he needs Wisdom for other class abilities), they add much more flavor related to being a Gunslinger: quick hands, quick eyes, and likely the need to do things on his own (between the lone wanderer theme, and the fact that he's carrying explosives on him probably not being a good enticement for friends to stick around).
Saves and Bravery
Glad to see this is back to a normal progression. Bravery being just like the Fighter ability (instead of a flat bonus), and the class just straight up getting two good saves.
Gunsmith
This pretty much alleviates most of the problems I saw with the "starting weapon" issue. He needs a potentially expensive item to start the game with, so instead he has a functional weapon that is otherwise scrap for anyone else.
Getting the gunsmithing feat for free also helps keep costs low for ammo, without being quite as absurd.
Note: I would have liked to see this flow into a "Signature Weapon" style of class ability, where the Gunslinger can get unique bonus and effects with a specific weapon he's "tweaked", but I can easily add that in as a Gunslinger feat later on if I wanted.
Grit
I like that the primary methods of gaining Grit are the more defined versions, while the "GM Adjudication" method is left as a sidebar option.
It's still something that will probably not happen that frequently, so hopefully Grit isn't something that will be quite as "required" anymore.
Deeds
Overall, there's some better mechanics in play. However, there are a few points that still need ironing out.
However, the point still stands that all Gunslingers will end up being quite similar. I liked the idea of having to pick deeds instead of just automatically getting every single one on the list. It would make for more unique characters.
Deadeye: You know my feelings on Touch AC.. well, in this case, I don't mind it. If this is how you got access to Touch AC resolving attacks, then I wouldn't mind so much (it costs a valuable resource). I'd prefer seeing the normal Touch AC factor gone, and moved to being a "Gunslinger thing", using this deed.
Gunslinger's Dodge: As has been mentioned, I think the medium or ligher text was supposed to be here. But as for the ability itself, it's not a bad use of a Grit, although I'd prefer seeing such a limited resource give something more along the lines of the Deflect Arrows feat (completely negate the attack, instead of providing a minimal AC bonus). Doesn't being prone already give you an AC bonus against ranged attacks? Does this bonus stack with that bonus too, or is it meant to be that same bonus (since it's +4 normally)?
Quick Clear: I had hoped that the Gunslinger class would not need this kind of Deed in the first place, but for those running games without Advanced firearms, and who like misfires, it seems to provide the desired function.
Gunslinger Initiative: I'm still not sure what the second part of this feat is supposed to mean. "As part of the Initiative check" is kind of odd because it's sort of a nebulous term that isn't necessarily used at the same points in time from group to group. I'd far prefer that it simply said something like: "Furthermore, if she has the Quick Draw feat, she has a free and unrestrained hand (or two hands for a two handed firearm), and the firearm is not hidden, she can draw a single firearm as a free action even if it's not her turn."
Voila, pretty much what you wanted (draw a single weapon instantly, before anything happens), but without the weird "as part of the initiative check" thing.
Pistol-Whip: Sounds like a trip maneuver using your weapon. Does it have to happen in the surprise round or something? The "make a surprise melee attack" implies more than the rules state.
If that's just flavor text (it's surprising to do this with a normally ranged weapon), then whatever. It's a free use of Improved Trip, sort of. Not bad or thematically jarring in any way, since it uses the maneuver system to defend against.
Utility Shot: I like the utility this brings to the class. Since ammo isn't quite as expensive as before, I can see these being used. I also like that it's fairly early into the levels now.
Some things though:
- Can you purposefully "miss" the Blast Lock to cause a jam? Sometimes you want to do that to screw up others wanting to get through there. It can be seen as a benefit.
- Can stop bleeding be done after shooting the weapon to attack someone, or does it have to be a wasted shot? Can the gunslinger perform this deed on himself if he's bleeding?
Dead Shot: I like seeing the suggestion being added. In this case, it's a lot similar to a "free" (one Grit cost) use of the Vital Strike line. Not quite as powerful as the suggestion on the forums, but with the gun costs going down, and reloading an easier option now, it sounds like this is now just a neat ability.
I'm sure Sniper builds will be liking this Deed a lot.
Startling Shot: This still suffers from the "guns force people to do weird things". It's a nice ability to give others in the group a good benefit, such as giving a fellow rogue the chance for sneak attack (since you are probably not giving a flanking bonus anymore).
But, I'd really like to see this changed to be a fear effect, and have a Will save DC. This would make it less Deus Ex style of an ability, and would mean Gunslingers and Fighters have a bonus that applies against this (fitting).
Targeting: Making this a full round action now makes it a decision between dealing damage or dealing this effect (especially with Dead Shot as an option, even if you don't have multi-fire weapons).
These are nice effects, although I'd prefer if the Arms target did damage still (otherwise it's a rather expensive ranged disarm, which some fighter archetypes can do a lot easier/cheaper).
With the fact that you have to give up damage options, I'd say it might work better as a "if you have 1 Grit" option, similar to the Utility Shot. The trade off becomes an action economy, instead of a per-day usage.
Bleeding Wounds: Overall a nice ability, don't really see any obvious problems with it.
Expert Loading: Seems odd to have this as an 11th level ability. How often is a Gunslinger going to be firing broken guns in the first place? By 11th level, I'd suspect between being able to make his own weapons, the obvious desire for the quickdraw feat, and the known issue with exploding guns, it'd be a rare situation that this would come up.
I'd rather see this Deed being the kind where if you have at least 1 Grit, you reduce the misfire chance by 1 (minimum 1), etc. This would offset those alchemical/metal cartridges at a level where he could afford to use them constantly.
Lightning Reload: I like that this was changed to still give a nice effect, even though reloading is less of an issue. The reloading without provoking pushes this Deed into being an actual boon instead of it's previous classification of "necessary".
Evasive: Late in the game, but a nice effect overall. This question will come up though: does this mean you ONLY get the benefit of not being flanked? Or do you get the Uncanny Dodge "not flatfooted" as well?
Menacing Shot: This ability works well, and is mechanically/thematically sound.
Slinger's Luck: Sounds nifty, and I like that it has the "can't be reduced by Grit reducing effects" clause, because I could see this getting out of hand.
I assume this can be used after knowing the result of the roll, since it doesn't mention anything about that (but you do have to take the next roll, even if lower)?
Cheat Death: Neat effect, and a reason to go to 0 Grit in the day (and lose access to all those nice "if you have 1 Grit" abilities). It also gives reason for Signature Deed and True Grit bringing some down to 0.
Death's Shot: Nice. Limited, in a fashion (although True Grit or Signature Deed on this one could be crazy). As a 19th level ability, it competes against the Rogue and Ranger end cap stuff.
Stunning Shot: Nice, death on a critical, or automatic stun on a normal hit. Some good options at the end levels, especially when you consider they are free for "0 grit" use.
Bonus Feats
This should be fine, especially with more weapons to expand the Gunslinger's repertoire (and some Deeds precluding the need for some feat chains, like Vital Strike).
The only question being, are they still a Fighter alternate class, and can they get Weapon Specialization, etc.
Gun Training
Once again, I'd prefer a "signature weapon" style of effect, or at least reducing the misfire chance.
Then again, I don't know if I'd even use misfiring at all in my own campaigns. So really, as a "thing for those that like misfires" I guess it does it's job.
I don't think I can stress enough the "Signature Weapon" idea here, as it would give some much needed customization for this class as well.
True Grit
As an end cap ability, it doesn't seem like much, until you look at the real end cap stuff at 19th level, and how this affects them. Death attacks and Stunning attack galore? That's worthy of 20th level, I'd say.
Feats
Overall, I like that the feats give the option to use handguns at least somewhat effectively, even if you aren't a Gunslinger.
Amateur Gunslinger, Deft Shootist Deed, Extra Grit, Signature Deed: These all work fine as they are (doesn't really seem like much changed).
Gunsmithing: This feels like the Master Alchemist feat, in that it's a good compromise between keeping the actual guns and ammo in check across the "world", but allows an individual to excel at it so that it's not quite as cost and time prohibitive.
Secret Stash Deed: Nice change here, although as has already been mentioned, the "in combat" thing can be nebulous and odd. I'd say that it might work out better to simply have it be at a time where you need the ammo (ie, you were using it right away). Say, if you wanted to use Blast Lock, etc.
It's quite a bit of metagaming, but I'd treat it similar to the Well-Prepared halfling only feat. It feels very Blood Opera style of a feat... you are simply the "guy who always has ammo" (especially if you have this as a Signature Deed).
Leaping Shot, Ricochet Shot: Nothing wrong with them in particular, but the wording feels convoluted, and I had to read them a couple times to get the full meaning.
No Name: So, it's "not a spell, it's extraordinary", but they get "a Will save to recognize it as an illusion" if they interact with it? Will saves usually don't apply to extraordinary effects...
Since it mentions nothing about what stat and level that applies for this save, do we just rightfully ignore that part of the spell? I assume the caster level implies how long the disguise can last.
As for how this thematically works, I'd read a number of books that involved non-magical forms of doing this, the most recent being Artemis Entreri assuming disguises as he sneaks out of town (looking fatter and shorter at one point, and tall and lanky in another, etc). I have no beef with the theme, just would need clarification on how it works.
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End Thoughts
Overall, I think this is far more playable as a class, and guns are far more workable as a weapon. The Gunsmithing feat and the alternative game options really opens this up to being a much more easily used system.
There are still some questions and quirks, but I can see running a game with this class now.
What you said.
+1 agree with you on this
I like that a gunslinger gets access to all deeds once they reach the appropriate level. I think that resolving firearm attacks against touch AC is a good game mechanic to explain the power a gun has to punch through armor.
I like that a gunslinger gets access to all deeds once they reach the appropriate level. I think that resolving firearm attacks against touch AC is a good game mechanic to explain the power a gun has to punch through armor.
Have no problem with it punching throw +10 AC worth of armor. (Could have guns say that they reduce the target armor or natural armor by -10 ac, would have been better).
I do have a problem with it punching throw +15, +20, +25, or +30 worth of Natural Dragon Hide or Demon armor.
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I know that they are not going to change it.
It just means that Red Dragon with +30 Natural Armor will die out AND Deflective Dragons (silver blue in color :) with +30 Defection Armor will be the new Dragon to breed, expand, and take there place.
Contributor
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I like that a gunslinger gets access to all deeds once they reach the appropriate level. I think that resolving firearm attacks against touch AC is a good game mechanic to explain the power a gun has to punch through armor.Have no problem with it punching throw +10 AC worth of armor. (Could have guns say that they reduce the target armor or natural armor by -10 ac, would have been better).
I do have a problem with it punching throw +15, +20, +25, or +30 worth of Natural Dragon Hide or Demon armor.
..............
I know that they are not going to change it.
It just means that Red Dragon with +30 Natural Armor will die out AND Deflective Dragons (silver blue in color :) with +30 Defection Armor will be the new Dragon to breed, expand, and take there place.
I like the simplicity of the touch attack rule, however I see your point.
If you're going to run a gun-heavy campaign, there's nothing stopping you from running a house rule to accommodate this dilemma.
I'd imagine a bullet would probably still hit a dragon or demon, but just bounce off or something. Rather than rework all the math you could implement a Bullet Damage reduction rule that subtracts a certain amount of bullet damage for supernatural creatures with high natural ACs (like dragons or demons).
Also, its not like firearms get a strength bonus or anything, so its a bit different than giving a great axe a touch attack.
again, in playtest, you will see the balancing factor is the range, to be effective, the gunslinger is going to HAVE to have deft shootist (feat tax) if not he will provoke from shooting AND reloading.
Most critters with high natural armor are also quite BIG and he will be within their melee range. Being as the Gunslinger is a bit feat starved at the moment, this combo isn't likely to exist, and if it does, the old chap isn't exactly a high AC character type with his medium armor and no shield.
There is a definite trade off to use this touch AC.
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Contributor
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again, in playtest, you will see the balancing factor is the range, to be effective, the gunslinger is going to HAVE to have deft shootist (feat tax) if not he will provoke from shooting AND reloading.
Most critters with high natural armor are also quite BIG and he will be within their melee range. Being as the Gunslinger is a bit feat starved at the moment, this combo isn't likely to exist, and if it does, the old chap isn't exactly a high AC character type with his medium armor and no shield.
There is a definite trade off to use this touch AC.
Absolutely. I don't really see a gunslinger taking down a Red Dragon. That's why my suggestion would be for a house rule, if needed in a gun heavy campaign. I don't think the touch attack thing is an issue for a standard game situation at all.
I've actually done this in playtest, running in to get the clean shot, and let me tell you, when the big bad has a high bab and reach, its not always a good decision, and it's grit earning worthy!
Oh yeah, I never really got into the actual balance work for Touch AC business. I just didn't like the idea that it somehow penetrated through armor amazingly better than say, a pile arrow or a crossbow bolt.
Note that the Advanced firearms resolve touch AC on up to 5 range increments.
I rather liked the idea that a person's response time was less for bullets than from arrows. Someone pulling the trigger on a gun was harder to react to than someone drawing back a bow to fire an arrow. Speed of arrows in flight vs bullets, etc.
Not that it's easy to respond to an arrow being fired either, but whatever.
I'd honestly be happy with not having the Touch AC thing at all, and remove the misfire situation. Which is probably how I'll handle them in an "advanced firearms" game.
Okay, I'm not a huge fan of the "touch AC" idea. I far preferred the idea of resolving against Flatfooted AC instead (harder to dodge in shorter ranges, with the caveat of not setting off Sneak Attack unless they'd otherwise be denied dexterity (they can still protect vitals, just not avoid the shot in general as easily).
This is beyond the actual balance reasons (which playtests will confirm or deny as an issue). It's a thematic issue for me, and I'd like to see playtests using flatfooted AC.
I REALLY like this idea. It just makes a lot more sense, especially when it comes to magical AC bonuses. Would a musket ball really go right through a +5 magic shield or set of armor?? I just don't see it. But dodging bullets? Not as likely. Although if this was changed I'd actually like some kind of bullet dodger feat available to high dex characters in case of high firearm games. Just my thoughts.