Are there any methods of preventing someone from becoming adjacent to you if you are using a reach weapon? Call me crazy, but I always thought that one of the advantages of using, say, a long spear was that it was hard for foes to get within range to stab you with a sword or knife. Yet it seems to work in reverse; by simply taking a 5-foot step, your defenses are easily bypassed, and suddenly your weapon is useless. O_o
Are there any options (feats, traits, etc) that even gives a chance at preventing this from happening?
The advantage is that you get to thwack them first.
Once they get past that thwacking you now have a disadvantage - but you can always 5' step and thwack them again.
Historically, such long weapons were banked up and relied on sheer numbers - a wall of sharp spikes - but once that was breached you had a shieldwall of swordsman in front of you keeping the bad guys back.
Long spears in a small melee are pretty useless pretty fast.
The advantage is that you get to thwack them first.
Once they get past that thwacking you now have a disadvantage - but you can always 5' step and thwack them again.
Which weirds me out, to be honest. Why does the dude with the long spear find himself getting backed into a corner by someone with a short sword? It should be the other way around.
I say treat it as a quarter staff once they get close.
You don't usually see adventuring characters running into pikewalls, since a real pikewall takes dozens of pikemen. In an encounter at low level the party is way out-CRed, and a high-level encounter just fireballs the pikemen. Either way, not something a DM usually puts up against them.
In D&D terms, you'd have a wall of pikes there, paralleling each other, so you have to deal not only with the guy in front of you but with the pikes of the two guys on each side of him (so 5 AoOs as you close, plus if you don't take the guy down the _second_ rank of pikemen all get to attack you -- you're 10' from them.) It's even worse with trained pikemen, because they'd be in close-order formation (2 guys per square), so you'd take _10_ AoOs trying to penetrate the pike wall and then you'd get hit by 10 attacks from the second rank next turn, if you were still there.
And if you're dealing with a 15' long Macedonian sarissa, you'd get _two_ waves of AoOs as you came in. There's a reason Alexander's phalanxes conquered much of the known world, and why Swiss pikemen were so heavily sought by so many European states in the pre-gunpowder era.
In one-on-one combat, or in close terrain, pikes have problems. (Phalanxes sought big flat areas in which to do their fighting.)
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Take a five foot step back.
Trip them at 10 feet. Standing up is a move action that provokes an attack of opportunity. If they stand up they can't take a 5 foot step that round. Their best option (assuming this is high level play with iterative attacks) is to take another move action to get inside your reach. This provokes another AoO. You have combat reflexes, right? ;)
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Take a five foot step back.
Trip them at 10 feet. Standing up is a move action that provokes an attack of opportunity. If they stand up they can't take a 5 foot step that round. Their best option is to take another move action to get inside your reach. This provokes another AoO. You have combat reflexes, right? ;)
You may still 5 foot step if you've taken a move action. You simply can't step if your move action was spent moving.
Ah, it's been a while since this issue came up in one of my games, so I just scanned a SRD real quick and misinterpreted any movement as move action. My bad.
To clarify: the SRD I'm reading classifies standing up as a move-equivalent action.
Take a five foot step back.
It just weirds me out to see the person with a longer reach getting driven back by a guy with a knife.
Individual combat is tricky, but I just can't see it being that *easy* to bypass any sort of polearm; the fighter with a reach weapon isn't just standing there. I'm sure he is constantly keeping his weapon trained on his opponent, thrusting and shuffling, and so on.I've sparred with someone using a spear in my kung-fu class. Geeting near enough to strike at my parter wasn't easy.
Tripping is the most dominant way to take advantage of reach because it costs the opponent a move so at best they get a single attack, at worst none at all. Tripping and reach is a very strong combo.
Another is to take a position in difficult terrain as you can't use 5' steps in it.
Another way to compensate for the no adjacent issue with pole arms is to use armor spikes. They are usable even if your hands are full and are close range weapons so you are always "armed" up close. My book Advanced Feats: Cavalier's Creed also has a feat called Near and Far that allows you to use a pole arm at close quarters which I think is reasonable for the cost of a feat.
As another said, using an ally to help stop the advance or make them pay for it is also handy, and there are feats out there that can help prevent people from 5' stepping with impunity as well.
Last up is to use readied moves against a determined opponent. Ready an action to take a 5' step back if an opponent moves adjacent to you. They 5' step in, you step back, now if they either stand like a fool, or move in taking the AOO. If they stay put, on your turn you hit them and then step back so they are at 10' range and cant get at you with a fiver.
And yes, in real combat, the way you deal with a pole arm is rush at them and hope you can block that first hit and get in under their guard, and if you have the pole arm and you don't get them you need to find a way to move back or to the side to avoid the press. (I used to do some SCA combat) Thats one on one mind you...
|
Just be a polearm master.
Pole Fighting (Ex): At 2nd level, as an immediate action, a polearm master can shorten the grip on his spear or polearm with reach and use it against adjacent targets. This action results in a –4 penalty on attack rolls with that weapon until he spends another immediate action to return to the normal grip. The penalty is reduced by –1 for every four levels beyond 2nd. This ability replaces bravery.
Step Aside (Ex): At 17th level, when a creature threatened by a polearm master takes a 5-foot step into a square adjacent to him, he can take a 5-foot step as an immediate action. This 5-foot step must be subtracted from his movement on the next turn. He also gains a +2 dodge bonus to his AC against that opponent until the end of his next turn. This ability replaces weapon training 4.
I've sparred with someone using a spear in my kung-fu class. Geeting near enough to strike at my parter wasn't easy.
Keep in mind that to close the distance with you an opponent must take an attack of opportunity from your spear. Once he is adjacent to your square he can stay inside your reach with a 5-foot step, but actually penetrating your 10-foot bubble will provoke an AoO.
|
|
Take a five foot step back.
It just weirds me out to see the person with a longer reach getting driven back by a guy with a knife.
Individual combat is tricky, but I just can't see it being that *easy* to bypass any sort of polearm; the fighter with a reach weapon isn't just standing there. I'm sure he is constantly keeping his weapon trained on his opponent, thrusting and shuffling, and so on.I've sparred with someone using a spear in my kung-fu class. Getting near enough to strike at my parter wasn't easy.
If you want an easier time getting at your training partner, slash at his hands with a bladed weapon. Once he loses a few fingers he'll think twice about about his level of aggression. Even if he is wearing protection on his hands, the impact will ruin his fingers and therefore his grip.
My monk with a polearm and combat reflexes is pretty nasty. come inside the polearm and get flurrying feet. At reach i got you with the polearm. I threaten like a troll, all I need now is combat patrol!!
It just weirds me out to see the person with a longer reach getting driven back by a guy with a knife.
Well, not quite... the spearman is getting the first crack in when it comes to who is hitting who, and assuming the knife wielder comes in on the weapon then he will get stabbed AT first, before he can stab, and then after his attack the spearman can step back and hit him again. Thats 2:1 attacks out of the box.
I bet Rome to a brick that in your kung fu class the spearman wasn't standing still the whole time, because eventually you would have achieved a break in and got in close... so of course the single spearman has to move. Polearms and spears have a usefulness, sure, but the advantage is easy to overcome for a sensible opponent.
I too had a similar experience in the dojo, but didn't have much problem taking out Mr Naginata with a Bokken.
It just weirds me out to see the person with a longer reach getting driven back by a guy with a knife.
Individual combat is tricky, but I just can't see it being that *easy* to bypass any sort of polearm; the fighter with a reach weapon isn't just standing there. I'm sure he is constantly keeping his weapon trained on his opponent, thrusting and shuffling, and so on.
Tell that to modern soldiers who prefer submachine guns to assault rifles in CQB. In close confines, a smaller weapon has an advantage. The longer the weapon, the further you have to swing its business end in order to change where it's pointing. Think of it as an angle: the wielder is at the intersection of the two sides , and the two sides that intersect at that angle are the direction in which his weapon STARTS, and the direction in which it ENDS. The longer the weapon, the greater the arc segment described by the tip of the polearm. On top of that, in the case of a polearm with reach, we're also dealing with inertia, and the wielder is at the wrong end of a fulcrum: The longer the weapon, the more force it takes to swing that end around, and the more force it takes to stop it when you get it where you want it to be.
I've sparred with someone using a spear in my kung-fu class. Geeting near enough to strike at my parter wasn't easy.
I'm wondering how long that spear was. Would it really be considered to have reach in terms of the game mechanics? All the weapons in the CR, at least, are in the range of 7-8 feet long.
Improved trip and knock them down with the AoO.
Stand Still and prevent them from moving at all.
| 2 people marked this as a favorite. |
It just weirds me out to see the person with a longer reach getting driven back by a guy with a knife.
- Its because of the D&D hit point system. Normally the first hit with a spear would be the ONLY hit in the fight. In D&D you can go "meh.. 12 points of damage, enough to decapitate 4 peasants! fortunately i'm a pc!" and keep on going.
-There's really nothing you can do about the 5 foot step. Just take your hits like a man, hit them back, tumble away from them, then use another aoo as they come at you again.
Did "Short Haft" make the transition to pathfinder? If so, the answer is simple, just take the Feat. If not, someone mentioned Near and Far for Cavaliers... Is that class specific or can anyone take it (effectively being the new Short Haft).
Those things failing, ask your GM to get shortened reach included in Weapon Focus. I mean, if your focused on a weapon and its uses, you should be able to attack someone adjacent, maybe with a slight penalty... whatever.
Last off, the terrain or trip maneuver detailed above are both good options. Trip simply requires a feat to be viable, and the terrain can be handled by an allied caster. I've saw something about a spell that creates rubble (diff. terrain) on the forums last week, at somewhat low level. Remember, teamwork is key. =P
No it didn't. One of the fighter archetypes has a similar class feature, but you take a penalty to hit for it.
| 2 people marked this as a favorite. |
Who has woken me from my slumber?
Are there any methods of preventing someone from becoming adjacent to you if you are using a reach weapon? Call me crazy, but I always thought that one of the advantages of using, say, a long spear was that it was hard for foes to get within range to stab you with a sword or knife. Yet it seems to work in reverse; by simply taking a 5-foot step, your defenses are easily bypassed, and suddenly your weapon is useless. O_o
Are there any options (feats, traits, etc) that even gives a chance at preventing this from happening?
Seems to be begging or some feats to address the situation... here are some polearm feats I've played around with in the past:
Slow Advance
Pre-Req: +1 BAB
If an enemy takes a 5' step out of a square you threaten, and you are able to make an attack of opportunity, it provokes as if normal movement.
Halt Advance
Pre-Req: +6 BAB, Slow Advance
If an enemy provokes an attack of opportunity due to the feat Slow Advance and that attack is successful, the enemy does not move.
Mirror Move
Pre-Req: None.
If an opponent takes a 5' foot step and ends its movement adjacent to you, you may take a 5' step as an immediate action. You may not use this feat and take a another 5' step in the same round.
Short Haft
Pre-Req: +1 BAB
A reach weapon may be used to attack an adjacent square, but the damage dealt is halved.
Who has woken me from my slumber?
LOL
I always fall for it. Always.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Who has woken me from my slumber?LOL
I always fall for it. Always.
It wasn't a trick. There was another poster who had revived the thread. He appears to have deleted his post.
|
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Are there any methods of preventing someone from becoming adjacent to you if you are using a reach weapon? Call me crazy, but I always thought that one of the advantages of using, say, a long spear was that it was hard for foes to get within range to stab you with a sword or knife. Yet it seems to work in reverse; by simply taking a 5-foot step, your defenses are easily bypassed, and suddenly your weapon is useless. O_o
Are there any options (feats, traits, etc) that even gives a chance at preventing this from happening?
Here are a few options for mitigating the inherent risks of a reach build:
Armor Spikes (Equipment): These allow you to shoulder butt an enemy that gets past your longspear.
Long Arm (Spell): With a reach weapon this gives you a 15-foot reach, meaning an enemy will have to spend a move action to close the distance, provoking AoO's.
Pushing Assault (Feat): Use power attack to push enemies away instead of dealing extra damage. Then on the enemy's turn, they have to use a move action to get up to you, provoking AoO's. This has the added benefit of having one of the most staple feats of the game as a pre-requisite.
Lunge (Feat): Attack an enemy 15 feet away with a reach weapon. Once again, they'll have to use a move action instead of a five-foot step to get up in your face.
For the record, I don't care that this thread is more necrotic than Geb, folks need to learn about the possibilities of reach builds.
Take a five foot step back.
It just weirds me out to see the person with a longer reach getting driven back by a guy with a knife.
Individual combat is tricky, but I just can't see it being that *easy* to bypass any sort of polearm; the fighter with a reach weapon isn't just standing there. I'm sure he is constantly keeping his weapon trained on his opponent, thrusting and shuffling, and so on.I've sparred with someone using a spear in my kung-fu class. Geeting near enough to strike at my parter wasn't easy.
Did you ever see the Game of Thrones episode where Oberyn Martell confronts two Lannister soldiers in the brothel? The soldiers go for their longswords on the table, while Oberyn steps in close with the dagger from his waist. That does a pretty good job at illustrating some of the differences in effectiveness at range between weapons. Longer weapons are better at range, while smaller weapons are more effective in close. If you don't believe it, go spar with a buddy with some practice weapons so you can feel the difference.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Use Catch Off Guard to use the haft of a pole arm as a makeshift club.
Using it as an improvised weapon means you don't get any of the usual enchantment benefits of the weapon, but you will catch them flat footed because of the feat.
Are there any methods of preventing someone from becoming adjacent to you if you are using a reach weapon? Call me crazy, but I always thought that one of the advantages of using, say, a long spear was that it was hard for foes to get within range to stab you with a sword or knife. Yet it seems to work in reverse; by simply taking a 5-foot step, your defenses are easily bypassed, and suddenly your weapon is useless. O_o
Are there any options (feats, traits, etc) that even gives a chance at preventing this from happening?
Seems to be begging or some feats to address the situation... here are some polearm feats I've played around with in the past:
Slow Advance
Pre-Req: +1 BAB
If an enemy takes a 5' step out of a square you threaten, and you are able to make an attack of opportunity, it provokes as if normal movement.Halt Advance
Pre-Req: +6 BAB, Slow Advance
If an enemy provokes an attack of opportunity due to the feat Slow Advance and that attack is successful, the enemy does not move.Mirror Move
Pre-Req: None.
If an opponent takes a 5' foot step and ends its movement adjacent to you, you may take a 5' step as an immediate action. You may not use this feat and take a another 5' step in the same round.Short Haft
Pre-Req: +1 BAB
A reach weapon may be used to attack an adjacent square, but the damage dealt is halved.
Weird i dont remember any of those , where exactly did you find them?
Weird i dont remember any of those , where exactly did you find them?
They appear to all be homebrew stuff. There is a Short Haft feat in 3.5 D&D Player's Handbook 2, but it has different prerequisites and effects.
Weird i dont remember any of those , where exactly did you find them?Are there any methods of preventing someone from becoming adjacent to you if you are using a reach weapon? Call me crazy, but I always thought that one of the advantages of using, say, a long spear was that it was hard for foes to get within range to stab you with a sword or knife. Yet it seems to work in reverse; by simply taking a 5-foot step, your defenses are easily bypassed, and suddenly your weapon is useless. O_o
Are there any options (feats, traits, etc) that even gives a chance at preventing this from happening?
Seems to be begging or some feats to address the situation... here are some polearm feats I've played around with in the past:
Slow Advance
Pre-Req: +1 BAB
If an enemy takes a 5' step out of a square you threaten, and you are able to make an attack of opportunity, it provokes as if normal movement.Halt Advance
Pre-Req: +6 BAB, Slow Advance
If an enemy provokes an attack of opportunity due to the feat Slow Advance and that attack is successful, the enemy does not move.Mirror Move
Pre-Req: None.
If an opponent takes a 5' foot step and ends its movement adjacent to you, you may take a 5' step as an immediate action. You may not use this feat and take a another 5' step in the same round.Short Haft
Pre-Req: +1 BAB
A reach weapon may be used to attack an adjacent square, but the damage dealt is halved.
All homebrew. I have tons. I should probably publish something, but...
Seems no one has mentioned the Pin Down feat from Ultimate Combat. While it does require 11 levels of Fighter (or the equivalent) it gives you an AoO on 5-foot steps and withdraws. You don't do damage if you hit, but they are forced to stop moving, thus staying in your threat area.
As for a reverse Step Up, the Polearm Master archetype for Fighter gets an ability called Step Aside in later levels.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Pushing Assault (Feat): Use power attack to push enemies away instead of dealing extra damage. Then on the enemy's turn, they have to use a move action to get up to you, provoking AoO's. This has the added benefit of having one of the most staple feats of the game as a pre-requisite.
Lunge (Feat): Attack an enemy 15 feet away with a reach weapon. Once again, they'll have to use a move action instead of a five-foot step to get up in your face.
Ah, the faith of the longspear church ever spreads.
Yes, pushing assault and lunge are THE feats to have if you wish to master reach. They allow you to get enemies in that sweet spot 15' away.
With lunge, you can attack an enemy outside of your normal threatened area during your turn. The reason this is important is because normally, when you attack first with a reach weapon, you loose your ability to get an AoO, since the enemy is in 5' step range (no AoO, full attack). With lunge, you can attack first all you want, and then you can still get your AoO.
Pushing assault perfectly compliments the above by pushing enemies away. When an enemy gets close, you just take a 5' step back, putting the enemy into the sweet spot 15' away. Thus, you can set up AoO's turn after turn (note- lunge helps pushing assault, since you can push an enemy back with an early, likely to hit attack, and then lunge lets you continue your full attack).
Done right, it means you get your full attack plus an AoO (or two, with fortuitous), while the enemy only get a measley single attack per turn. Perfect defense, powerful offense.
And you are no turtled monk. You are a mighty 2 hander with a BIG range for full attacks due to reach+lunge, and you are also a 25' wide circle of pain due to the normal day to day advantages of reach. After that, you can then later move into trip shenanigans for extra advantages- but do not be fool- lunge and pushing assault are the ones that grant you mastery over area.
Blessed be the longspear, who doth give a taste of perfection to all PCs (except for those heritic druids...)
|
|
Pushing Assault (Feat): Use power attack to push enemies away instead of dealing extra damage. Then on the enemy's turn, they have to use a move action to get up to you, provoking AoO's. This has the added benefit of having one of the most staple feats of the game as a pre-requisite.
Lunge (Feat): Attack an enemy 15 feet away with a reach weapon. Once again, they'll have to use a move action instead of a five-foot step to get up in your face.Ah, the faith of the longspear church ever spreads.
Yes, pushing assault and lunge are THE feats to have if you wish to master reach. They allow you to get enemies in that sweet spot 15' away.
With lunge, you can attack an enemy outside of your normal threatened area during your turn. The reason this is important is because normally, when you attack first with a reach weapon, you loose your ability to get an AoO, since the enemy is in 5' step range (no AoO, full attack). With lunge, you can attack first all you want, and then you can still get your AoO.
Pushing assault perfectly compliments the above by pushing enemies away. When an enemy gets close, you just take a 5' step back, putting the enemy into the sweet spot 15' away. Thus, you can set up AoO's turn after turn (note- lunge helps pushing assault, since you can push an enemy back with an early, likely to hit attack, and then lunge lets you continue your full attack).
Done right, it means you get your full attack plus an AoO (or two, with fortuitous), while the enemy only get a measley single attack per turn. Perfect defense, powerful offense.
And you are no turtled monk. You are a mighty 2 hander with a BIG range for full attacks due to reach+lunge, and you are also a 25' wide circle of pain due to the normal day to day advantages of reach. After that, you can then later move into trip shenanigans for extra advantages- but do not be fool- lunge and pushing assault are the ones that grant you mastery over area.
Blessed be the longspear, who doth...
One issue: Lunge specifies that you must use it before any attacks are made.
I'm actually looking at the Naginata for a sword saint samurai.
So I'm very interested in reach, it may help in getting into space to carve them up.
Can I tale a 5 foot and still do a full round attack.
Yep. It is the main way people move when they want full attacks (unless they ahve pounce or something)
The only movement you can take during a full attack is a 5-foot step. You may take the step before, after, or between your attacks.
So going reach is a fine way for a martial character. It also gives you a circle of PAIN 25' wide. You are basically a living obstacle that hits things in the face if they move around in that circle. So generally, you want to put yourself between enemies the the squishy casters so that enemies ahve to think twice before charging the wizard.
Also remember- the fortuitous property is your friend. This property allows you to get a second AoO in for the same AoO drawing action. It is at BAB-5...but it still means that you are basically getting in a mini full attack in during someone else's turn.
EDIT for a missed comment-
One issue: Lunge specifies that you must use it before any attacks are made.
...ok? I can understand that there are semantic distinctions, but in the strategy I outlined, it doesn't change practical distinction. Lunge expands your reach, so deciding to use it from the get go doesn't change much. You can attack at 10' away and 15' away as you please, unless I am misunderstanding something.
So activate it and pushing assault, hit from the inner part of your range, and push them to the outer part of your range and continue until you are finished with your full attack.
the attacks from Pin Down... can that be a trip attempt?
the attacks from Pin Down... can that be a trip attempt?
Anything that can be done as an attack action can be used with bonus attacks, so yes.
the attacks from Pin Down... can that be a trip attempt?Anything that can be done as an attack action can be used with bonus attacks, so yes.
That is so dodgy. AFAICT it works by RAW but it's still dodgy in the "clearly not how the feat was intended to work" way, so you should expect massive table variance on it.
Though it's a lot more build-intensive than just equipping a gauntlet or what-not, I've always liked unarmed strikes for beating the heck out of foes with the haft of a polearm in the way that any trained polearm fighter worth anything would learn to do. You can turn it into a whole fighting style where closing through a reach AoO turns out to be the least of a foe's worries. Like a polearm Barbarian using the Greater Brawling rage power and applying Dragon Style to their first offhand haft-punch.
That is so dodgy. AFAICT it works by RAW but it's still dodgy in the "clearly not how the feat was intended to work" way, so you should expect massive table variance on it.the attacks from Pin Down... can that be a trip attempt?Anything that can be done as an attack action can be used with bonus attacks, so yes.
How is it dodgy? Trip can replace any attack, including AoOs. This is an AoO.
It also seems perfectly within the spirit of the feat. Someone is trying to move away from you: you want to prevent that. Tripping seems like the ideal method. And trip does no damage, just like Pin Down down does no damage.
I don't quite understand your objection.
That is so dodgy. AFAICT it works by RAW but it's still dodgy in the "clearly not how the feat was intended to work" way, so you should expect massive table variance on it.the attacks from Pin Down... can that be a trip attempt?Anything that can be done as an attack action can be used with bonus attacks, so yes.How is it dodgy? Trip can replace any attack, including AoOs. This is an AoO.
It also seems perfectly within the spirit of the feat. Someone is trying to move away from you: you want to prevent that. Tripping seems like the ideal method. And trip does no damage, just like Pin Down down does no damage.
I don't quite understand your objection.
Well, both methods would stop a target from moving, and it appears that they could be used together. Keep in mind though that CMD's can be far higher than normal AC. Depending on the enemy, it could be far easier just hitting Pin Down on it's own.
Blessed be the longspear, who doth give a taste of perfection to all PCs (except for those heritic druids...)
And Wizards. :(
Blessed be the longspear, who doth give a taste of perfection to all PCs (except for those heritic druids...)And Wizards. :(
Yes, yes, damn their heritic souls.
Although...bestow weapon proficiency is one their list. I'll just write that off as the orthodox church of the longspear.
So I have an idea but I'm guessing there is some technicality that is keeping this from being brought up/being true. Is there a reason why you couldn't use the Step up feat chain in reverse so that once they try to 5ft past your reach, you just 5ft step away as well and they have to turn that 5ft step into a move action that provokes? Granted you still have to cede ground every time you do this but the build would eventually allow you two free AoO when every they advance into your adjacent square (1 from step up and strike feat, 2 if they try to bridge the gap again).
Blessed be the longspear, who doth give a taste of perfection to all PCs (except for those heritic druids...)And Wizards. :(Yes, yes, damn their heritic souls.
Although...bestow weapon proficiency is one their list. I'll just write that off as the orthodox church of the longspear.
That's true. Wizards can even get weapon proficiency through their spells. Once again, Wizards rule!