I haven't read the feat in a while, I was just guessing there might be a slight loophole. Oh well, probably a well enough fix, otherwise, is to allow people to use spears one handed normally as that's how spears work. Then you just dual wield spears with a buckler/light shield on either arm.
I know this is a necro'd thread but there is a nice new way to foil the 5 foot step on a reach character in the Weapon Master's Handbook.
I won't paste the text directly as I don't know if its widely available but:
"When you make a full attack action with an appropriate weapon, you can treat all squares adjacent to you as difficult terrain for the round. You can allow creatures to ignore this penalty."
Difficult terrain means no more 5 foot stepping in.
That could also hurt your teammates, but not often I would assume. (It also isn't that effective at the start of combat since you can't drop delay in the middle of a turn to full attack as someone steps up to that space.)
Difficult Swings.
But yeah BBT, unless they have that but it is still a fairly effective way of holding things down for the most part. Most creatures will suffer at least (assuming grounded of course).
My favorite was a Dwarven Foehammer with the Rock Stepper racial trait and a longhammer. As a full-round action, use Groundbreaker(EX) to make your square and all adjacent difficult terrain except for you due to Rockstepper then five-foot step back. Just have to teach your allies not to stand next to you when combat is likely to start.
Which weirds me out, to be honest. Why does the dude with the long spear find himself getting backed into a corner by someone with a short sword? It should be the other way around.The advantage is that you get to thwack them first.
Once they get past that thwacking you now have a disadvantage - but you can always 5' step and thwack them again.
In a duel, someone with a shield and sword would generally eat the one with a spear.
In a duel, someone with a shield and sword would generally eat the one with a spear.Which weirds me out, to be honest. Why does the dude with the long spear find himself getting backed into a corner by someone with a short sword? It should be the other way around.The advantage is that you get to thwack them first.
Once they get past that thwacking you now have a disadvantage - but you can always 5' step and thwack them again.
But who brings just a spear to a duel?
Sorry if it's been mentioned, but the Advancing weapon quality could help here, no? If I'm reading it right, you could take a swift action to 5-foot step away from an enemy if you hit it on your last attack (admittedly risky, as the last attack is generally least likely to hit). I think you also get to make your regular 5' step on your turn as well. So if an enemy was adjacent to you, you could 5' step back, attack, and then take another 5' step back. Just a possible alternative for pushing assault if you're low on feats but can spare a +2 enchantment.
In a duel, someone with a shield and sword would generally eat the one with a spear.Which weirds me out, to be honest. Why does the dude with the long spear find himself getting backed into a corner by someone with a short sword? It should be the other way around.The advantage is that you get to thwack them first.
Once they get past that thwacking you now have a disadvantage - but you can always 5' step and thwack them again.
I would say it depends on who was dueling, the type of spear, the type of shield, the techniques, and other equipment (armor on the shins and head seem important, since they are the most likely areas to hit if you try to go around the shield)
But yes- shields are one of the better answers when going against reach. Used well, it can let you get in close.
Shields are certainly effective tools, but they tend to be overrated in the modern historical reenactment and 'sparring' context. Making fast vicious strikes at the head or legs, or a multitude of methods of violent tripping, or hammering on a shield hard enough to break it or the arm of the guy holding it, or hooking and stabbing, or any number of other ways of gaining advantage over a shield are more than a little frowned upon for very sensible safety reasons.
Shields are certainly effective tools, but they tend to be overrated in the modern historical reenactment and 'sparring' context. Making fast vicious strikes at the head or legs, or a multitude of methods of violent tripping, or hammering on a shield hard enough to break it or the arm of the guy holding it, or hooking and stabbing, or any number of other ways of gaining advantage over a shield are more than a little frowned upon for very sensible safety reasons.
Of course, then we get into discussion of spears.
just a plain spear? Yeah, it would probably have trouble. It relies almost entirely on the thrust (with some quartstaff action in there too). Shields are rather good against that, since it is more damage at a single point.
You would want to go into polearms if you want something good against shields. A nice glaive, or maybe something with a hook.
Of course, I am unsure of how prevelant non-spears were at various points in history. Spears are very cheap, and good for formations, since it is just a straight forward thust. Many polearms might not be for appropriate for the rank and file that makes up the majority of an army (at least, not until the advanced metalurgy of the middle ages, where it was easy to make something cheap and strong; you know what I am talking about, with this game's dozen or so grandfathered in polearms in martial weapons)
Of course...this is a duel in this instance, so we are most likely not talking about rank and file.
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I'm actually looking at the Naginata for a sword saint samurai.
So I'm very interested in reach, it may help in getting into space to carve them up.
Can I tale a 5 foot and still do a full round attack.
Won't work. The opening paragraph for Sword Saint specifies that the abilities only work with a one-handed weapon. I've tried.
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If you're only taking Combat Expertise for Improved Trip, check out Dirty Fighting from the Dirty Tactics Toolbox. It replaces both Combat Expertise and the Int prerequisite, and it gives a nice bonus when flanking. If you think you'll want Improved Feint at some point, you need to stick with Combat Expertise and a 13 Int.
It is worth mentioning that for most reach builds the Spine Flail is the ultimate weapon.
Interestingly, because it is a one-handed piercing weapon it is also the ultimate swashbuckler weapon.
Turns out Reach Swashbucklers really kick ass.
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So I have an idea but I'm guessing there is some technicality that is keeping this from being brought up/being true. Is there a reason why you couldn't use the Step up feat chain in reverse so that once they try to 5ft past your reach, you just 5ft step away as well and they have to turn that 5ft step into a move action that provokes? Granted you still have to cede ground every time you do this but the build would eventually allow you two free AoO when every they advance into your adjacent square (1 from step up and strike feat, 2 if they try to bridge the gap again).Yes. You can't do this because it isn't what step up does and it would make reach, arguably the best melee style in the game, even better.
As it is reach gives you stupid bonuses. You even get the benefit of being unable to be AoO'ed most of the time when using combat maneuvers.
You can also use pushing Assault with it which gives you even more versatility. Combine it with lunge and/or improved trip and it is re-freaking diculous.
Assume you have 2 attacks per round:
Round 1
5ft step back
Full attack, power attack, improved trip, pushing assaultAttack 1: Trip
Attack 2: Attack (Bonus for target being prone) power attack with pushing Assault to shove them away.Round 2
Your opponent gets up (granted you give an AoO up) then you:
Attack 1: Lunge, Power Attack, Pushing Assault
Take a 5ft step forward between attacks
Attack 2: TripYou are now in a position to keep pushing them back and are in control of the fight.
So, what is your opponent doing with the rest of his actions?
Standing up is, usually, a move equivalent action, so he can still 5' step and do something that requires a standard action to do.And, of course, while reach weapons have their benefits, they also have their disadvantages. Reach vs reach means no more "free" combat maneuvers, since your provoke actually provokes. Tanglefoot bags are an ugly thing, and available right out of the box, since they are a Core mundane item, and the save isn't against being entangled, it is against being glued in place; so if they hit you, you get penalties.
Actually, tanglefoot bags and the grease spell are both good ways to lock down someone's ability to take 5' steps. And there are a couple of other options around, IIRC, that can also shut down the ability to take 5' steps.
It is worth mentioning that for most reach builds the Spine Flail is the ultimate weapon.
Interestingly, because it is a one-handed piercing weapon it is also the ultimate swashbuckler weapon.
Turns out Reach Swashbucklers really kick ass.
Interestingly, for 2,500gp a Blue Scarf Swordmaster's Flair will add 5ft reach to any swashbuckler-friendly weapon.
I have withdrawn from someone that kept pushing me. This is a strong way to get some distance and restart the push in.
Just remembered a simple solution: Wear a gauntlet, you now threaten both squares.
That is why they have armor spikes. A handless weapon. No need to bother with questions of whether gauntlets work or not. Just say "I tackle the guy while wearing huge metal spikes".
Not entirely sure of how much this is a problem though. The enemy is taking a 5' step anway- if we were discussing normal weapons, then that would be a 5' step away from the person. And even if you do have something to threaten up close, they can still take a 5' step away from you.
The only place I can see up close threatening as really important is is you are flanking someone. Then yes- that would be a situation where they avoid AoOs when they normally couldn't with regular weapons.
EDIT: Of course, maybe that is because I always write off enlarge person for reach because of the huge gap in threatened area. I acknowledge the tactical advantage of being a larger circle of denial, but the gap is just too big (outside of the range of a 5' step back)- it sacrifices your basic melee abilities, since you need to waste a move action in order to move AWAY from an opponent that gets directly next to you.
And honestly? If it was that vital? I would not use manufactured weapons at all. I would seek a bite or something. Since they can do x1.5 damage if you only have the one attack. That touches on one of my biggest concerns on HAVING to have a close up back up while enlarged- it is usually a step down from big old 2 handers to light weapons. It is just not a very good substitute, and doesn't make up for your basic tactical loss when it comes to your main weapon being unusable for basic attacks and full attacks.
That is why they have armor spikes. A handless weapon. No need to bother with questions of whether gauntlets work or not. Just say "I tackle the guy while wearing huge metal spikes".
Not entirely sure of how much this is a problem though. The enemy is taking a 5' step anway- if we were discussing normal weapons, then that would be a 5' step away from the person. And even if you do have something to threaten up close, they can still take a 5' step away from you.
The only place I can see up close threatening as really important is is you are flanking someone. Then yes- that would be a situation where they avoid AoOs when they normally couldn't with regular weapons.
EDIT: Of course, maybe that is because I always write off enlarge person for reach because of the huge gap in threatened area. I acknowledge the tactical advantage of being a larger circle of denial, but the gap is just too big (outside of the range of a 5' step back)- it sacrifices your basic melee abilities, since you need to waste a move action in order to move AWAY from an opponent that gets directly next to you.
And honestly? If it was that vital? I would not use manufactured weapons at all. I would seek a bite or something. Since they can do x1.5 damage if you only have the one attack. That touches on one of my biggest concerns on HAVING to have a close up back up while enlarged- it is usually a step down from big old 2 handers to light weapons. It is just not a very good substitute, and doesn't make up for your basic tactical loss when it comes to your main weapon being unusable for basic attacks and full attacks.
Armor spikes always confused me, do they do Str or 1.5 x Str damage? Technically you're not using any hands to wield them, so which is it?
They do x1 Str to damage.
They are light weapons.
It's that easy.
Like a foot.
How many hands does it take to wield and attack with your foot?
yep. Under the martial light weapons table.
Also, as a general rule of thumb, just about any weapon that doesn't need hands is considered light. So boot daggers, boudler helmets, tail blades, etc.
Gotcha, thanks for clarifying.
Just remembered a simple solution: Wear a gauntlet, you now threaten both squares.Negative.
If you aren't using 2 hands you don't threaten the far square.
If you are using 2 hands you don't threaten the near square.
Switching from a 1 to a 2 handed grip is a free action. You cannot do it as a reaction.
You can always just let go at the end of your turn and regrab at the start of your next...
Refine Improvised Weapon can turn any reach weapon haft into a completely legitimate quarterstaff ready for close range two-handed bashing for 1 hour/level.
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You can always just let go at the end of your turn and regrab at the start of your next...Just remembered a simple solution: Wear a gauntlet, you now threaten both squares.Negative.
If you aren't using 2 hands you don't threaten the far square.
If you are using 2 hands you don't threaten the near square.
Switching from a 1 to a 2 handed grip is a free action. You cannot do it as a reaction.
And he trades off threatening at reach, then, for threatening adjacent.
IUS or a level of Monk is your most reliable method to be able to threaten at both reach and adjacent. Whip with its related feats is another way.
There are other things, like armor spikes, that should work, as well. Some people, however, get the "You can't TWF with a two-handed weapon and armor spikes" as being you don't threaten with both, instead.