In the beginning, the gods made the universe, but they couldn't just snap their fingers to do so, they had to make *tools.*
Those 'tools' involved words of power, true names for each thing, archetypal patterns, from which all lesser things are distorted shadows, configurations of elemental energy drawn from the various planes of raw, unrefined seething potential, etc. all bound together through formula and philosophical acts of engineering.
Much later, some of the lesser races looked up from squabbling over trinkets in the mud, and realized that there was something just beyond their reach, something which had been left abandoned after the creation of the universe. And so the 'tools' of creation were fumblingly discovered, and inexpertly used, sometimes to disastrous effect, by the mortal races, who called these individual tools 'spells,' and the use of them 'magic.'
Magic is the system architecture of the fantasy world, and spells are the individual commands and codes.
Of course, everything but Limited Wish, Miracle and Wish are basically training wheels. :)
Hmm.... this could be interesting.
Care to tie this in with the fact that deities are somehow "fueled" by worship?
Of course, such metaphysics are always best left unexplained in rule/setting books... doesn't stop us pontificating, though.
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The ludicrously-named "Amulet of natural armor" is always a dragonscale amulet... that last one must be my single biggest naming peeve in all of Pathfinder.
Ooh, good one. Amulet of Natural Armor is about as sexy as 'Hammer of Hitting Stuff' or 'Dagger of Stabbing.'
Actually, I think I'd take a Dagger of Stabbing any day over an Amulet of Natural Armor... (And, really, it's *magic,* right? Shouldn't it be *unnatural* armor?)
Linking healing draughts / elixirs to the names of the various cleric levels back in 1st edition has potential. Acolyte's Elixir, Ovate's Elixir, Curate's Elixir, Friar's Elixir, etc.
I mean, heck, those funky lists of level titles gotta still be useful for something, right? :)
I generalyy treat arcane spells alot like Evil Licoln does. Though really 3rd ed...explain it the best...Pathfinder just copied it. But it is funny that people still are stuck with Gygax lousey desciption...or word use. Even players who never played 1st ed...are stuck with it.
Anyway my take on Divine spells is that they are prayers to your god beseeching aid in a certain way...(Think "oh god let it rain'...but much more lengthy and much formalized)...now since you don't have time to say a prayer in combat usualy...preparing the spell is you actualy saying most of the prayer leaving off the ending. Than when you finish it the pray is answeared. Channeling for cause or cure wound spells relate to your channel ability...and I always viewed as a emergency type thing. The reason you are limited is because you have a certain limit on how much you can call on a deity due to your experience and importance to the faith(re: level).
This allowed me to reward cleric who do something outstanding for their faith with additional slots for a day...or week or a month...and to have the gods give little warning to cleric with a lost of a slot instead of stripping them of all their powers( that can still happen...but is only used for the most dire of trangressions...).
It also allowed me to use something I admittly stole from another DM...but that has nothing to do with spells...or preparation so I don't want to derail the thread.
I like "shells" explanation of per day castings, combines with my matrices - I thought about something like that but couldn't find the proper symbolism and wording.
Thus each wizard, depending upon his level of understandig can access deeper and deeper orders of his psyche where he forms matrices and hangs spell (vertical advancement - new spell levels). Also, witch each advancement each shell also expands its capacity (horizontal advancement - more spells per day on each level). His high Intellectual capacity allows him to cram more matrices on each shell (bonus spells from high Intelligence).
Sorceers have the power required to cast spells dissociated with matrices but the energy still is concentrated on the surface of shells. Each shell has separate energy charge that can be channeled through associated matrices to cast spell or can transfered to lower-energy shell and used to cast weaker spells. However the transfer dissipates excess energy meaning that higher energy spell charge is used up whole to cast weaker spell instead of being divided into multiple spell charges of lower energy.
As I said earlier I see all spellcasting coing along those lines, with the change in source of spells and minutiae of weaving the matrices for all other spellcasting classess.
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I always saw wizard casting in 3.5/PFRPG as similar to how it is in the Immortal Nicolas Flamel Series.
In it everyone has an aura, although not all can manipulate it. The more extreme or larger quantity of magic you use, the more it weakens you. Alchemysts use formulas to tap into their aura, memorizing the "science" of it instead of the natural ability.
I view it similarly, except that every smart sorcerer would only use a number of spells that wouldn't kill them. A wizard would be similar to an Alchemyst in the novels, where he would double-check specific "formulas" in the morning, but still limiting himself to not hurt himself. It plays out very well and my players seem to back it up.
Also a fantastic series with huge amounts of actual historical references and characters, I highly suggest it.
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According to some of these descriptions, detect magic and a good enough Knowledge(arcana) or Spellcraft roll might allow an experienced arcanist to examine a colleague's aura and identify what spells he has prepared.Detect magic is not tuned enough to sense those specific patterns. Arcane sight allows detection of spellcasting ablities and highest power available (the type and "size" of matrices") but still fails to recognize exact contents of matrices.
Spell-like abilities are also innate matrices imprinted in particular creatures but are triggered without the usual components and powered on an individual basis.
Well, I think detect magic could do it, but only if you had a "map" - their spellbook (or familiar for witches). For clerics and druids, you'd need to be of that class, and have access to their various divine tools.
And in any case, it should take hours. Arcane Sight lets you do it faster.
My brother and I were talking about the hanging ritual idea(IE you have uncompleted spells hanging around you ready for completion) there are a few holes that bug me.
Lets say, for example, a fireball take 5 minutes to completely cast, but I stop the casting at the last step, and leave the spell hanging. Why can't I just cast a fireball from my spellbook, and it takes 5 minutes + a standard action? Why does a wizard need rest to prepare spells?
How does memorizing the same spell multiple times work? Do I have to memorize slightly different versions of the spell with different triggers? If I memorize the exact same fireball spell with the same finishing trigger 3 times, why can't I finish all 3 of the fireball spells in the same standard action?
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Like most of us, I view prepared spells as just that: subject to preparation, and left hanging and waiting for the trigger.
Vancian magic used to bug me but it doesn't anymore. I once tried to run a campaign with a modified spell point system that I considered more "logical" and "free-form" than the core rules, but it all ended horribly. :P Turns out that for this system, spell slots just work better.
Divine spells are imparted by a deity and so can utilize creative forces only permitted to deities. Healing spells are the clearest manifestation of this principle.
How do you handle bards casting arcane cure spells?
Honestly, I think wizards at home might cast spells just like sorcerors, it just takes a real long time. Wizards keep a book with their spells, and only prepare them when they're going out. At home, they may have a full 20 minutes to cast prestidigitation to amuse their nephew, or thirty minutes to cast fireball, just to see what it does. But in a dungeon? Orcs to the left of me, orcs to the right of me? Orcs in front of me? Well, I think they sacrifice some of the at home versatility for the "volley and thunder"
The rules actually support this - a wizard can leave spell slots open at the beginning of the day, and fill them with 15 minutes of study during it. I can totally see a wizard who doesn't plan on adventuring preparing one or two defensive spells "just in case", possibly a few others they might find useful, and leaving the rest available.
Lets say, for example, a fireball take 5 minutes to completely cast, but I stop the casting at the last step, and leave the spell hanging. Why can't I just cast a fireball from my spellbook, and it takes 5 minutes + a standard action? Why does a wizard need rest to prepare spells?
Well, you're adding phenomena that aren't described in the system. That's cool, but look at it this way: it never says fireball taxes X minutes to prepare. It could be that all spells are prepared simultaneously in a ritual that always takes an hour regardless of the spells you prepare. You might not be "casting" these spells so much as constructing them in a ritual and storing them for later, where casting is merely the trigger.
How does memorizing the same spell multiple times work? Do I have to memorize slightly different versions of the spell with different triggers? If I memorize the exact same fireball spell with the same finishing trigger 3 times, why can't I finish all 3 of the fireball spells in the same standard action?
I had always figured that you had three intangible glowing fireball orbs hanging around, but you can only ever trigger one at a time. As part of the somatic component, you manipulate the one you plan to trigger, so the multiplicity of them is not an issue, any more than you run the risk of picking up two things off a table when you only wanted one!
You can manipulate multiple uncast spells at once, but it is powerful metamagic that allows you to do that (quicken spell). Otherwise, the reason you can't is simple — you must manipulate a spell through it's verbal, somatic, and material components to trigger it. Especially in the case of verbal and somatic, it would be hard to do two things at once!
(While I speak matter-of-factly on these topics, please know that these are just creative interpretations!)
Divine spells are imparted by a deity and so can utilize creative forces only permitted to deities. Healing spells are the clearest manifestation of this principle.How do you handle bards casting arcane cure spells?
*head explodes*
...umm...
how do you do it, Bobson?
First off, as others have said, this thread rocks my (fantasy) world. So much great fluff and explanation here, it really breathes powerful life into the magic system. Like so many here I've always been of the 9/10 preparation ahead of time with the last 1/10 being the final bit to release the power of the now completed spell. Obviously with some more difficult or "taxing" spells that last 1/10 can take a bit longer than others (thus the differences in casting times).
I've always loved the idea of a series of interlocking, yet distinctly separate, invisible (to most) auras surrounding the caster. As a young (or inexperienced) caster they have learned (discovered, been taught, etc.) to tap the power in the extreme outer elliptical (read circle). That outer elliptical (same as all the others) has only so much energy, and therefore funneling energy out of it can only have so much effect on the corporeal world (thus the limited power of zero level spells). Thankfully though that extreme outer elliptical quickly replenishes itself and can very soon be drawn on again to the same effect (thus the never-ending zero level spells). As a wizard continues to use (very important in my interpretation) and study those powerful auras, he/she learns to unlock the deeper and more powerful auras. These deeper and more powerful auras also have limited energy, and once that is tapped it takes a bit of time (read eight hours of uninterrupted sleep) to replenish. (You could tie that replenishing to just about any cosmological, biological, spiritual, etc mechanism you wanted.)
A caster that bases their use of magic on study, learns, through continued study, and continued experience of the use of his auras, new ways to manipulate the energy in the separate levels of his aura. Thus the caster's mind is their tool to unlock more powerful spells. When a studied caster (read wizard) prepares their spells, they need to look again at the particular verbiage and somatic (some prefer kinesthetic because of the required movement) elements required to create a specific energy link to a specific level of aura. Their spellbook might be nothing more than crib-notes with shorthand notations that are meaningful to them, they point to the arcane words, required physical materials (the necessary elements needed to turn the aura's energy into a specific corporeal effect), and necessary forms of movement that are the keys to unlocking a specific vein of one aura. All spells are the same (which leads to what might become another thread-- the idea that in various places, perhaps wizard schools, those spells are written down in their entirety, not in shorthand, but in all their specific glory), but not all wizards need to write down the same things to remember them. I loved one persons reference to reciting Rime of the Ancient Mariner, except for perhaps the last verse. Am I going to remember the Rime of the Ancient Mariner in it's entirety every day? No way! But! The more I use "The Rime of the Ancient Mariner" the easier it will be for me to remember it. Which explains why as a wizard unlocks deeper and deeper auras their time spent in preparation doesn't increase. They've spent so much time unlocking the same energy from the weaker auras, that they only need a little bit of prompting to remember and prepare (again, read cast 9/10) all the necessary parts of that spell. Thus the bulk of their preparation time is taken up with those newer and more difficult spells, that they have just now learned to use (or veins of energy from specific auras they've learned to unlock). Some casters whose manipulation of magic is based off of study, have learned to do some neat tricks with their auras. They've learned things like unlocking a specific vein from one aura, but then running a tap from that vein through it's aura into a deeper aura to instill more power into it (metamagic empower spell). This way the spell manipulates the proper energy from the right aura, but taps the power of a deeper aura to really empower its effect. In this way casters can learn to do many complex and interesting things with their spells. Quicken spell equals unlocking the right energy from the right aura, but then running a tap so deep into other auras that it becomes the magic equivalent of putting a flimsy cork into a champagne bottle, and then shaking the crap out of it. All you need to do is unstop the cork and the magic comes flowing out (thus the need for only a swift action to release the spell). All metamagic feats are just that, knowledge that allows the caster to run a magical thread from a specific energy in a specific aura into deeper and deeper auras to elicit the different corporeal effects.
A note on bards: Bards are much like wizards, except that they've learned to unlock the veins of their auras through an inferior means (song). Though this method is inferior, and thus severely limits their ability to unlock deeper auras, or discover new veins within the auras, it does allow them the ability to unlock what they do know rather easily. Since a bard's performance is his/her entire lifestyle, they DO know the Rime of the Ancient Mariner by heart, and they've learned that the key to unlocking that particular vein of magic is a few key melodic verses. Thus they can tap their auras more easily, and without preparation, but they never get as in depth a knowledge of their auras as those casters that devote themselves to constant study and experimentation.
Spontaneous casters have been given a gift, perhaps through an ancient bloodline (sorcerers), perhaps through some deific sense of humor (oracles), etc. Nonetheless they've been given the gift of permanently unlocking specific veins within the levels of their aura. They need not prepare anything, they need only bide the time while their aura's energy replenishes. The more they use this gift, the more they understand their auras, and the easier it becomes to unlock deeper auras, and manipulate them into different effects (metamagic).
Divine casters (rangers, paladins, clerics) have been given a gift as well, the gift of the knowledge of deific keys to their auras. The deities, be they amongst the pantheon of gods, or simply the god nature itself (for rangers), have gifted their designated heroes with the knowledge of specific keys to specific veins within their auras. Each day they need to spend their time in worship asking their patron (or matron) deity for the keys they'd like to use that day. If their lives and prayers are faithful, they will be given the knowledge of those keys again. If their lives are not faithful those metaphoric keys will not be granted to them.
NOW! For something that I do not believe has yet been covered. Some heroes have found alternate means to unlock their auras as well! These may be a gift of their race. For some, like a powerful barbarian, their own knowledge of unlocking these energies within their auras, is purely primal and instinctual. They don't know words or movements, nor do they need components. They simply know that when they need it, it appears; or in some cases is permanently unlocked. These innate magical talents express themselves in many and varied ways, but always, they are drawn from the same place as all other magic: the different levels of invisible auras that surround all creatures. Some describe these abilities as supernatural (su), some as extraordinary (ex), some just say "hey that's like a spell" (spell-like abilities). Regardless of what you name them, they are still keys to specific veins of energy within different power levels of their own auras. Some might use them to make them faster (barbarians movement), others have permanently unlocked effects like better vision (low-light vision). No matter the manifestation, all these abilities derive their power from these auras. In the cases of those abilities that are permanently at a hero's disposal, they funnel so little energy from the aura that it actually replenishes just as fast as it is being used.
I believe this interpretation is very similar to what others have been saying. Different terminology maybe, veins of energy instead of floating orbs, but the same intent. Thanks for sparking my own creative energy on this!
Divine spells are imparted by a deity and so can utilize creative forces only permitted to deities. Healing spells are the clearest manifestation of this principle.How do you handle bards casting arcane cure spells?*head explodes*
...umm...
how do you do it, Bobson?
I've never tried to refluff magic. I'm being inspired to do so by this thread, but I'm not sure my current group would go for it. Maybe I'll try to sell them on it when I start Kingmaker this summer...
Well, you're adding phenomena that aren't described in the system. That's cool, but look at it this way: it never says fireball taxes X minutes to prepare. It could be that all spells are prepared simultaneously in a ritual that always takes an hour regardless of the spells you prepare. You might not be "casting" these spells so much as constructing them in a ritual and storing them for later, where casting is merely the trigger.
You are dodging my real question. If "memorizing" a spell is simply a matter of performing a ritual and leaving it hanging, then why do I need to rest 8 hours before? Why can't I just take an hour at anytime, and relearn my spells?
I had always figured that you had three intangible glowing fireball orbs hanging around, but you can only ever trigger one at a time. As part of the somatic component, you manipulate the one you plan to trigger, so the multiplicity of them is not an issue, any more than you run the risk of picking up two things off a table when you only wanted one!You can manipulate multiple uncast spells at once, but it is powerful metamagic that allows you to do that (quicken spell). Otherwise, the reason you can't is simple — you must manipulate a spell through it's verbal, somatic, and material components to trigger it. Especially in the case of verbal and somatic, it would be hard to do two things at once!
(While I speak matter-of-factly on these topics, please know that these are just creative interpretations!)
But spell has a single trigger. What is to stop the same trigger from triggering multiple stored spells at once? Do you memorize slightly differing version of the same spell with slightly different triggers?
Take a spell like Blindness. It only has a verbal component. So if I memorize 3 blindness spells with the exact same trigger word, why can't I just say that one word, and hit someone with 3 blindness spells(which gives me 3 chances to penetrate SR, and forces 3 separate saves)?
Well, you're adding phenomena that aren't described in the system. That's cool, but look at it this way: it never says fireball taxes X minutes to prepare. It could be that all spells are prepared simultaneously in a ritual that always takes an hour regardless of the spells you prepare. You might not be "casting" these spells so much as constructing them in a ritual and storing them for later, where casting is merely the trigger.
You are dodging my real question. If "memorizing" a spell is simply a matter of performing a ritual and leaving it hanging, then why do I need to rest 8 hours before? Why can't I just take an hour at anytime, and relearn my spells?
I had always figured that you had three intangible glowing fireball orbs hanging around, but you can only ever trigger one at a time. As part of the somatic component, you manipulate the one you plan to trigger, so the multiplicity of them is not an issue, any more than you run the risk of picking up two things off a table when you only wanted one!You can manipulate multiple uncast spells at once, but it is powerful metamagic that allows you to do that (quicken spell). Otherwise, the reason you can't is simple — you must manipulate a spell through it's verbal, somatic, and material components to trigger it. Especially in the case of verbal and somatic, it would be hard to do two things at once!
(While I speak matter-of-factly on these topics, please know that these are just creative interpretations!)
But spell has a single trigger. What is to stop the same trigger from triggering multiple stored spells at once? Do you memorize slightly differing version of the same spell with slightly different triggers?
Take a spell like Blindness. It only has a verbal component. So if I memorize 3 blindness spells with the exact same trigger word, why can't I just say that one word, and hit someone with 3 blindness spells(which gives me 3 chances to penetrate SR, and forces 3...
Char, if you take a look at my lengthy explanation I think I offer some ideas. First is that when you prepare a spell you are literally tapping a vein of energy. Each vein of energy can only be prepared to do one thing at a time, if you want to tap that same vein of energy to do the same task again, you need to tap it in a separate place. Thus the multiple preparations of the same spell. So the first release of the same spell is just releasing that first vein of energy.
As to the rest, I offer an answer there as well. These auras of energy, that you tap veins out of, can, and are, used up in time, and they need time to replenish themselves. You can't get gas out of an empty tank, you have to fill it up.
Wizard's spell as contained in spellbook is highly abstract and extremaly complex formula (so complex that learning it by heart requires taking Spell Mastery feat).
When preparing spells Wizards reference their spellbooks to weave and shape matrix of magical energy and store them within themselves.
When casting spell Wizard "triggers" the stored matrix and unleashes energy through it. Components are both triggering catalysts and missing part of the spell matrix itself.
Unleashing the matrix erases it from the Wizard's mind/aura.Sorcerers instead have spell matrices imprinted in themselves permanently (more or less, as they can swap spells know). They use the same triggering techniques as wizards to channel energy through and unleash effects of matrices and may do that multiple times without erasing them but cannot change them easily.
Because they do not construct the matrice in their mind using the formulae from spellbook they need no Intelligence to cast spells but overall complexity of matrix they can have imprinted is limited by force of their personality.EDIT: Divine magic works on similar principle except that Clerics, Druids and other spell preparing classes instead of creating matrices in their minds recive them from their deities (and require high insight to be able to open themselves to more complex matrices) and Oracles have matrices imprinted in them by divine forces.
I like the imprinting metaphor the best. It makes sense. same basic concept, but magic comes from different places. +1 good sir. +1
You are dodging my real question. If "memorizing" a spell is simply a matter of performing a ritual and leaving it hanging, then why do I need to rest 8 hours before? Why can't I just take an hour at anytime, and relearn my spells?
Not dodging, no, but I'll give it a shot!
As I said upthread — my personal explanation is that magic has an astrological component and it requires a planetary rotation to replenish. However, that puts it on a 24-hour cycle, and doesn't explain the 8 hours rest, which is still a requirement, so that borders on a house rule.
Leaving that aside! You need 8 hours of rest before preparing spells. If spells are an intangible object that can only be "held" by initiated individuals, perhaps the vessel that the initiate uses to carry prepared spells needs 8 hours before it is ready to hold another spell. Perhaps these vessels only begin recharging when the initiate is at rest, so you can't just wait 8 hours, you actually have to rest.
"Relearn" is a word I would avoid, personally. You haven't forgotten anything, that implies that you could just up and cast a spell whenever you want. You can't. It must be prepared and then triggered, and before it can be prepared certain conditions must be met. It's in the rulebook, nicht wahr?
But spell has a single trigger. What is to stop the same trigger from triggering multiple stored spells at once? Do you memorize slightly differing version of the same spell with slightly different triggers?
Take a spell like Blindness. It only has a verbal component. So if I memorize 3 blindness spells with the exact same trigger word, why can't I just say that one word, and hit someone with 3 blindness spells(which gives me 3 chances to penetrate SR, and forces 3...
As I said, a spell has an intangible physical presence (in my theory). Spells with no somatic component are either "already in hand" or perhaps they simply self-trigger in response to the other components. Even spells with only verbal components or no components at all are different physical entities — and the caster exerts mental control over them because they reside within him.
Or... since we're being rather abstract, perhaps each identical spell is "stacked" or "queued" on that matrix/circle/order/aura/orb/vein. The reason they don't all spill out at once when you use the triggering components is because the first spell in the queue blocks it. Like ammo in a clip whynot?
Well, that's my best shot, Charender. What needs work?
I lay in bed last night thinking about why this topic pleases me so.
What I came up with was this, more or less:
Back when I was irritated with vancian magic, . I had preconceived notions about "how magic should work", which is a ridiculous proposition if you think about it.
At some point, I realized that the setting "fluff" could (and should) be derived from the rules. We have a black box system here; we know what we put in, we know what we get out, but we know virtually nothing beyond that. that behaves differently than, e.g. Harry Potter where a spell is like a skill; once learned you can do it on command!
Well, in Pathfinder, magic is not a skill. You cannot, after learning a spell, simply do it on command. That's the rule. And there must be a corresponding theory, in-character, to explain the existence of that rule. PCs do not walk around in denial, believing their system is skill-based when it is not. They know how many 3rd level spells they have, and then know they can still cast 4th level spells even if they have no 1st level spells left.
And, once I came to view magic in those terms, it became somehow more magical than the expected, cliché, magic-as-skill system I used to think was the only one.
It is regrettable that a little bit more fluff like this did not seep into the Core Rulebook. Most players come to the game expecting magic to behave like a skill, and when it doesn't, they feel like it is a poor model for their expected system. If the rulebook managed expectations a little better, I think fewer people would be estranged by the magic system.
</polemic>
I also want to note that I think skill-based magic systems are really neat! I just really appreciate Pathfinder magic as a parallel option that is unique and flavorful.
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Think of it as "resting relaxes and smooths out your aura". It does the same thing for a Monk's Ki, a Barbarian's Rage, and so on, which is why they need to rest as well (I don't know - or care - what it technically says, the idea of a barbarian who hasn't slept in 24 hours suddenly regaining his rage is silly).
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I forget which book inspired this, but I've always thought about magic slots and learning them in a more 'brain-linked' fashion. Namely, that wizards learn how to unlock certain bits inside their brain to 'store' magic spells each day. Early on they're learning and only have a few that they can really hold onto, later they gain more.
Reading the book each day and preparing the spell is what locks it into their mind and makes it ready for casting.
The 'you can't fill a slot until you've had 8 hours of rest' bit goes more along the lines of the storage being sore, tender, or otherwise sensitive until you've had some rest. Releasing the spell causes a sudden emptiness in your mind that causes some kind of mental pain (IE: minor headache). Trying to hold another spell so soon after releasing one just isn't possible because of it.
Lets say, for example, a fireball take 5 minutes to completely cast, but I stop the casting at the last step, and leave the spell hanging. Why can't I just cast a fireball from my spellbook, and it takes 5 minutes + a standard action? Why does a wizard need rest to prepare spells?Well, you're adding phenomena that aren't described in the system. That's cool, but look at it this way: it never says fireball taxes X minutes to prepare. It could be that all spells are prepared simultaneously in a ritual that always takes an hour regardless of the spells you prepare. You might not be "casting" these spells so much as constructing them in a ritual and storing them for later, where casting is merely the trigger.
Spell Preparation Time: A "single" spell takes at least 15-minutes to prepare. To prepare all of your spells takes one-hour!
More discussion about it here. I questioned how spontaneous casting would work with these rules, or feats/rogue-talents which allow you to use a spell spontaneously "x"-times per day.
Spell Preparation Time: A "single" spell takes at least 15-minutes to prepare. To prepare all of your spells takes one-hour!
That does go in support of my statement that individual spell prep doesn't have a fixed time. It's 15 minutes, unless you prepare it with your other spells, in which case it's a lot shorter. That implies some sophisticated relationship between spells when you are preparing them — something beyond simply adding together the prep time for each spell.
Spell Preparation Time: A "single" spell takes at least 15-minutes to prepare. To prepare all of your spells takes one-hour!That does go in support of my statement that individual spell prep doesn't have a fixed time. It's 15 minutes, unless you prepare it with your other spells, in which case it's a lot shorter. That implies some sophisticated relationship between spells when you are preparing them — something beyond simply adding together the prep time for each spell.
I think you are mistaken:
Preparing some smaller portion of his daily capacity takes a proportionally smaller amount of time, but always at least 15 minutes, the minimum time required to achieve the proper mental state.
The minimum time for even one spell is 15-minutes.
I think you are mistaken:
What I mean to say is that if you ever prepare more than 4 spells in the morning, then each spell is taking less than 15 minutes.
Therefore, there's something of gestalt effect for morning prep, where doing it all-at-once takes considerably less time than 15 minutes per spell prepared.
So from the perspective of the discussion, the amount of time it takes to prepare a given spell is variable depending on the context of the preparation.
Unless you want to go ahead and say that the time is NOT variable, you're just able to "overlap" preparations by multitasking, much as a chef can cook several dishes at the same time. I think that's a totally valid explanation.
I think you are mistaken:What I mean to say is that if you ever prepare more than 4 spells in the morning, then each spell is taking less than 15 minutes.
Therefore, there's something of gestalt effect for morning prep, where doing it all-at-once takes less time than 15 minutes per spell prepared.
So from the perspective of the discussion, the amount of time it takes to prepare a given spell is variable depending on the context of the preparation.
Unless you want to go ahead and say that the time is NOT variable, you're just able to "overlap" preparations by multitasking, much as a chef can cook several dishes at the same time. I think that's a totally valid explanation.
I can agree with that. But tell me, how do you feel about spontaneous casting with this system, such as a rogue-talent or feat of arcane magic? Assuming an arcane spell requires at least a certain amount of minutes of preparation time, isn't spontaneous casting a direct contradiction to this very principle of preparation? I like your guys' ideas of a magical weave btw. Very Forgotten Realmsish.
I can agree with that. But tell me, how do you feel about spontaneous casting with this system, such as a rogue-talent or feat of arcane magic? Assuming an arcane spell requires at least a certain amount of minutes of preparation time, isn't spontaneous casting a direct contradiction to this very principle of preparation?
Obviously things work a little differently for spontaneous casters. They know certain spells, so it is safe to say that something about them carries the prep-part of the spell around all the time, and that they're able to take their generic spell slots to finish off the spells on the fly.
Hmm... not as solid as I thought until just now. Let me think about it.
Spell Preparation Time: A "single" spell takes at least 15-minutes to prepare. To prepare all of your spells takes one-hour!That does go in support of my statement that individual spell prep doesn't have a fixed time. It's 15 minutes, unless you prepare it with your other spells, in which case it's a lot shorter. That implies some sophisticated relationship between spells when you are preparing them — something beyond simply adding together the prep time for each spell.I think you are mistaken:
The minimum time for even one spell is 15-minutes.Preparing some smaller portion of his daily capacity takes a proportionally smaller amount of time, but always at least 15 minutes, the minimum time required to achieve the proper mental state.
the key there is the newly bolded part.
It implies that preping spells requires a certain mental state be achieved and that it takes no less than 15 minutes to achieve this state.the length of time to "hang" the spell from that point is not detailed.
but we can extrapolate a time based on certain facts.
- It takes a minimum of 15 minutes to achieve the proper mental state.
- It takes an hour to hang 4 spells at level 1.
- It takes one hour to hang 10 spells at level 5.
- It takes one hour to hang 20 spells at level 10.
- It takes one hour to hang 26 spells at level 15.
- It takes one hour to hang 40 spells at level 20.
- The length of time to hang spells at the start of the day never alters regardless of the total number being hung.
The length of time to hang spells is variable as is clearly shown by the list of known facts. Also clearly shown is it takes a minimum of 15 minutes to achieve the mental state required to hang the spells. Leaving 45 minutes for actually hanging spells. So assuming that Level Cap is 20 (big assumption I know) then the fastest time to hang a spell is just a little over one minute (1.125). The slowest time is just over eleven minutes (11.25). The average time then would be roughly 6 minutes (6.1875).
I could break down the hanging time for each spell for each bench mark but I think you see the point.
Thanks DM
I'm actually most interested in this "mental state", because that is a specific hint to the metaphysics of the whole thing.
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Honestly, I think wizards at home might cast spells just like sorcerors, it just takes a real long time. Wizards keep a book with their spells, and only prepare them when they're going out. At home, they may have a full 20 minutes to cast prestidigitation to amuse their nephew, or thirty minutes to cast fireball, just to see what it does.The rules actually support this - a wizard can leave spell slots open at the beginning of the day, and fill them with 15 minutes of study during it. I can totally see a wizard who doesn't plan on adventuring preparing one or two defensive spells "just in case", possibly a few others they might find useful, and leaving the rest available.
Yeah, this totally makes sense for the wizard who sells spell services. Other than having prepared one or two spells that he might 'need in a hurry,' or that customers have already told him in advance that they wish to purchase the use of this day, he should keep his options open, so that if someone comes in and asks for a mage armor to use during a bare-knuckles brawl, a magic item identified or a mount to give as a gag gift to a friend (send him on a picnic with his girl with a horse that's gonna vanish in a couple of hours, and make them walk home!), he can spend the 15 minutes to prep that spell and cast it.
Thanks DM
I'm actually most interested in this "mental state", because that is a specific hint to the metaphysics of the whole thing.
The mental state coupled with the variable hanging time and the actual casting times (plus an off hand statement up thread) has gotten me thinking about another aspect of spells...
Length in the spell book.Spells take up one page (250 words...I forget where I saw this exact number) per level. How does this all play in to the casting of a spell?
I can agree with that. But tell me, how do you feel about spontaneous casting with this system, such as a rogue-talent or feat of arcane magic? Assuming an arcane spell requires at least a certain amount of minutes of preparation time, isn't spontaneous casting a direct contradiction to this very principle of preparation?Obviously things work a little differently for spontaneous casters. They know certain spells, so it is safe to say that something about them carries the prep-part of the spell around all the time, and that they're able to take their generic spell slots to finish off the spells on the fly.
Hmm... not as solid as I thought until just now. Let me think about it.
Actually, after reading this thread I've been considering this very problem (I'm a huge fan of sorcerers.) If you take either the "spell matrix/glowy-ball-thing stored in different layers of your aura" or the "hang spells in the weave around you" theory, you can assume that the sorcerer doesn't have to prepare particular spells because he already has the potential spell energy there in his aura/his personal weave-space. Unlike wizards, he can only channel this energy into a handful of specific spells, but due to his innate magical abilities he doesn't have to specify which spell to manifest until he triggers the energy--that is, he doesn't need to perform the preparation ritual, as it's an instinctive, immediate process for him. He still needs 8 hours of rest to let his aura recover its strength (or whatever), but it doesn't automatically hang his glowy-balls in his aura layers; the 15-min meditation at the start of his day is just to partition his renewed spell energy potential into its respective places in his aura/personal weave space.
That was sort of rambly, but it works for me. What do you think?
Edit: Hmm. This may just be DM's idea in different words, actually.
I’m coming into this thread a little late, but since rationalizing rules is something I do for fun, I thought I’d share some things I’ve made up for magic us in D&D. I haven’t put much work into combining the two ideas, but they’re not mutually exclusive. Just different ideas formed at different times.
Formula
Waaay back in 1st and 2nd edition, when I didn’t know much about Greyhawk, I developed a myth about how Boccob created a formula describing how everything in the universe was related to each other. The key to magic, then, was to figure out the formula which connects fur with amber to make fire (fer instance). The second part of the myth was that the great thief Zagyg was challenged to steal the book describing the formula from Boccob, which he did, introducing magic to the world of mortals (and going insane as he read more of the book than any mortal mind could comprehend).
I’ve held onto that theory into 3rd edition and added in the idea that one of the “things” that can be connected to other things is song or dance or whatever. You’ve got to be skilled, but a sufficiently talented singer could use *that* as an element to his spell formula and cast a spell that a not-so-talented person couldn’t. That’s how I justified the slight differences between bards’ and wizards’ spell lists.
Energy
Another theory I cooked up with 3rd edition was a nod to the Winds of Magic used in Warhammer Fantasy Battles. I noticed that divine spells had a school listed for them just like arcane spells did, and I made sense of that by saying that there are eight ‘types’ of magical energy that a spellcaster can utilize. To cast a spell, the spellcaster just arranges for the appropriate necromantic or abjuric or divination…ic energy to be gathered in the appropriate way and use that to power the spell. Wizards, fer instance, spend their spell preparation time gathering up and shaping the appropriate energy for their spell and hang it on their aura (or whatever). Clerics and druids, on the other hand, have the energy molded for them by their gods (or other extraplanar representative). Spontaneous casters like sorcerers have their energy inherent to them via their bloodline (or through the power of music for bards) such that they don’t have to pre-gather the energy over time.
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I tend to imagine that different in-game cultures and traditions look at and explain the spell mechanics in different ways... even (from their point of view) 'access' them differently, despite us (being 'outside the world') being able to see that they are fundamentally all doing the same thing. I also tend to imagine they have lots of pointless arguments, and even start wars, over who is 'right'... but then again, I studied theology... ;)
Personally I really liked the 3.5 stuff about 'alternate forms of spellbooks' - like the 'tattooed spellbook' where your Wizard gets covered in mystic tattoos, instead of lumping a hefty book about. Complete Arcane maybe? I forget... Anyway, with a 'tattooed spellbook' I imagined the tattoos for specific spells glowing, or getting brighter, when the Wizard prepares those spells, then fading when they're cast (fading by degrees if he prepared more than one of any give spell).
But you can steal... urm... 'be inspired by' real world mystic stuff to create some interesting in-game cultural 'versions' of magic fluff. For example...
A Mystic (Wizard) studies to achieve enlightenment by awakening the kundalini 'serpent energy' (magic) coiled around the base of the spine. As the Mystic progresses towards enlightenment, he awakens higher, more powerful chakra (spell levels), of which there are ten: the muladhara 'base chakra' (cantrips), through swadhisthana 'sacral chakra' (spell level 1), manipura 'navel chakra' (level 2), the manas 'mind' (level 3) and surya 'sun' (level 4) chakras located between the navel and the heart, the anahata 'heart chakra' (level 5), vishuddha 'throat chakra' (level 6), ajna 'third eye' (level 7), lalata 'high forehead chakra' (level 8), and finally the sahasrara 'crown chakra' (level 9).
When preparing 'spells' the Mystic meditates, using the patterns, words, and movements illustrated in his spellbook to aid in focusing and releasing his kundalini energy, which flows up his spine and - via his 'opened' chakra - throughout the body to coallesce in the specific parts of his internal mystic energy network which represent that spell effect. To 'cast' the spell, the Mystic uses focusing chants, mudra (gestures), and materials to release that energy into the world.
It is said that one side-effect of a Mystic developing his or her kundalini energy can be an increased sexual prowess, and Mystics are much sort after lovers due to their (real or perceived) abilities in this area, even though those higher on their own personal paths to enlightenment often drift away from such worldly concerns at all.
Mystic enlightenment is governed by Intelligence (rather than Wisdom) as it represents one's expanding mind, and their ability to peel back the layers of both the external and internal universe and to comprehend what they experience by doing so.
... based on a rather new-agey fluff version of tantra, nudged a little here and there to fit the game mechanics better.
I just feel like saying that whenever I'm drawing, I can only do so much of such quality per day...
Sorry for the irrelevant comment.
I can relate...
The language of magic:
Valences = Spell Levels. For those of you who don't remember, Valences is the name for the 'levels' of electrons that orbit an atom.
Matrix: Multiple Valences form each caster's matrix of spells.
It takes 15 minutes to set up the flow to draw energy into a particular spell in your Matrix. Once established, accomplished casters can fill more spells more quickly, but the initial 'quiet time' of meditative focus is required to get the ball rolling.
Prepared casters use their books as templates and store the energy in the very form of the spell itself. They can 'lose' the spell and energy, and change it freely the next day.
Spontaneous casters have their spells permanently etched and part of their Valence structure. The energy they draw in goes into the Valence itself, energizing all spells simultaneously, and can be discharged through any of them. The down side is how difficult it is to change their spells, and certain spells naturally 'etch' themselves into their Valences.
A Wizard matrix looks like multiple rune-spots of hideously complex design orbiting the central core of cantrip-level energy...planets around a sun in discreet energy level orbits of fascinatingly complex balance.
Sorc Matrices look like spheres of light stacked inside one another, with runes etched into and flowing across each sphere. They crackle with the raw power and will of the caster, less 'distinct' then fiery and bright with power.
Spontaneous casters generally hold more magic more easily, thus, 'magic in the blood'.
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Valence levels castable determine rank and power. Caster level, being highly mutable, does not. Thus, a wiz/15 and Sorc/16, both casting 8th level spells, are equal in rank. Note that it's possible to be a wiz/18 with a 15 Int and not be able to cast high level spells. Thus, the spells are the qualifier of rank, not caster level.
It also discriminates properly against bards and other wusses who can't cast 'real' high level magic.
The ranks are:
Initiate of the Mysteries Arcane: 1st level spells
Journeyman of the Mysteries Arcane: 2nd
Adept (can teach others magic) of the etc.: 3rd.
Master etc: 4th These are the levels for most NPC casters who are established.
True Wizard/Sorceror: Able to cast 5th level spells, particularly Teleport. The vast majority of NPC's never pass 10, and so these are the 'iconic' levels for the arcane classes.
High Wiz/Sorc: Up to the 'High Magic' of 6th+ level spells. Key spell: Anti-Magic Shell, that can shut down all magic! Horrifying!
Grand Wizard/Sorc: 7th level spells. Teleport w/o Error...go anywhere, anytime! Limited Wish a close second.
Wizard-Mage, Sorceror-Mage or simply Mage: 8th level spells. On the cusp of being legends, and certainly feared for their power.
Archmage: 9th level spells. Wish. Gate. Meteor Swarm. Disjunction. Shapechange. Time Stop. The great spells of legend. Only the greatest of casters ever get here. You have the magical powers of the greatest of magical creatures, and are beholden to no god for them.
Archmage, the PrC: "Master" Wizard/Sorc/Mage/Archmage.
Epic level spells: High Archmage.
10th+ level spells slots: Grand Archmage.
Thus, an Epic Level Arcane caster with the Archmage class could be a Grand High Master Archmage if he had Epic Magic and 10th level slots.
A 13th level sorc with a level of Archmage would be a Master High Sorceror.
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bard magic is arcane magic because it's not from the gods or nature. That wasn't true in 1E, where Bard Magic was druidic.
The easiest way to justify arcane healing via bards is that the gods love bards, and so ease the restriction. The magic of song charms even deities, and they are more willing to let these artists do what power-hungry full casters are not. The Heartsong of Bards is how I entail their magic, it's a completely seperate tradition, and the divine favor them, just like they favor clerics, just to a lesser extent. That's more then enough justification for me.
What's more fun is coming up with the slang that wizards and sorcs use amongst themselves...they are geeks and centers of attention, you know!
==Aelryinth
I really enjoy the concept of both the "dwoemer" system (floating, intangible objects) and the "matrix" system, and I could actually see combining them. Perhaps the wizard weaves these matrices at the beginning of the day, and rather than storing the power within himself, they actually float around until he unleashes them, like spell-bombs (multiple complex--or not so complex, as it can be pretty easy to blow s#!t up--components that create a volatile reaction when used).
Adapting that to other classes, I'd have to take a page from my homebrew setting. Sorcerers use "primal" magic in my setting, so maybe they don't even have these matrices/dwoemers/spellbombs. They don't even necessarily know how to form them (to know that would mean being a prepared caster, but more on that later), but just have the natural ability to form certain magical effects. I have this great image of Seoni (or even Hennet from 3.5) casting fireball by literally ripping their fingers through the fabric of reality, forming a writhing ball of magic, then firing it at their enemies like a gunshot through their fingertips (with some bat poo for flavor). These effects might not necessarily be identical to traditional "wizard" spells, but they're usually close enough that they can be classified as such.
Bards are similar, but they sing the power into being (or narrate it, "I watched in rapt awe as my enemies fell before me, their eyelids heavy and their muscles limp" to cast deep slumber).
In a deity-heavy setting (Golarion, for example), divine casting is pretty easy to explain. They pray, they're granted the spells, and when they open their eyes they have their own repertoire of matrices glowing with divine power (or, in the case of oracles and inquisitors, they are beings who have simply been granted a fraction of the gods' power, and can manipulate it at will, as a sorcerer).
I generally run deity-light games, in that nobody truly knows if the deities exist. In this case, divine magic is a bit of a controversy (especially when concerning oracles). Divine casters believe that their power is granted by the gods, whereas many wizards (even believers), who understand how magic works, believe that their prayers and preparation rituals are just a different method of manipulating the magical forces (and therefore can produce different effects).
In the same vein of thought, I like the idea that preparation rituals are different for each class, and that each methodology is generally unique in determining what a class can cast. For example, a wizard sees that a witch is both a prepared arcane caster and can cast curative spells. He asks himself, "why can't I cast curative spells?" So he studies with a witch, learns that their familiar is a key component in casting spells like a witch. He looks at his toad familiar and says, "well, I've got that covered." He then learns the importance of the hex and the witch's patron, and how his familiar must commune with spirits. He learns their ways until, finally, he is able to cast curative spells...by taking his first level of witch. I'm of a school of thought that class abilities and spells are not mutually exclusive. They're all tied together. You could substitute the witch and curative spells with a magus's ability to cast in armor and get the same result. By learning the importance of training both physically and mentally, the integral power of the arcane pool, and the complexities of spell combat, a wizard can now cast in armor...by taking his first level in magus.
Just a few ideas to throw into the pot.
-The Beast
Seems to be a lot of talk about Earthdawn in this thread.
Circles as Spell Levels is IC and OOC Earthdawn terminology, as is Matrix Casting, which is exactly what Evil Lincoln is describing.
You take a few minutes to clean your Spell Matrix, an astral construct formed by wizards weaving magical 'threads' together to form the basic lattice of the shape of the spell. Spells that need more power have additional power threads, like conduits of astral energy, woven into the matrix at the last possible second, then the energy is poured through, taking the shape of the matrix and occuring in physical space. The act of channeling the spell burns out the 'power threads' so if you want to cast the spell again, you have to weave those threads once again.
It leads to a world where, yes, you can examine someone with astral sight to see the matrices they have, but without significant magical training (spell deciphering/read magic kind of thing) you don't know what those matrices are. Further, more advanced adepts (PCs) can attack those matrices in order to deny spell-casters their powers.
An excellent, incredibly flavorful system.
Just bear in mind that if you can refer ICly to the 'Circle of Spells' and people have methods in which to perceive the matrices ready for spellcasting, methods must evolve to take advantage of that perception, including knocking loose prepared spells/wiping slots.
Not neccessarily. You're referring to something built in astral space, but a Matrix could be an entirely mental construct, while your ability to see what they could cast could simply be indirect reading of the effect of the bound spells upon their magical aura.
Spells that attack spells are currently non-existent in 3.5 and PF, but they were present in 1E and 2E (the chain spell that let you cast one spell of a level and then denied you that level of spells until it was dispelled, Khelben's Dweomerdoom, and things like the Censer of Thaumaturgy that had different effects depending on the spell ability of the creature that lit it).
The closest we come now is Spell Theives and Feeblemind.
==Aelryinth
I've never really liked the idea of divine spells as just "magic spells", but rather have preferred them to be prayers that the god has heard and responded to. This was very hard to incorporate into vancian spellcasting, until I got this idea:
The gods are mainly powered by faith in them, and more importantly, in expressed worship in them. That is why many religions forcibly convert people - it doesn't really matter as much if the people believe, as if the people worship. Of course, actually faithful people are more motivated to worship and so in the long-term, real conversion is motivated. It is also why they seem (and often are) so self-righteous; if they have an attitude of humble love for their faithful, without demands, they'll wither and die.
The gods are powered by creation and creativity just as much as they created the world; when they did so, they gave up a part of their own bodies and minds, and when they're worshipped, a part of that is given back. It is like putting a lot of work into a tool, to make future work easier. A unique prayer is a must for them to notice a faithful enough to grant him even the most basic of prayers - that's why prayer books aren't as much for clerics as for the common man. Seeing the connection between diety and world is a matter of being perceptive and understanding, and it is on this understanding that unique prayers are based. A prayer that reflects the god's will is more potent than one that is just aesthetically likeable - that's why wisdom is more important than charisma.
Every day, when a cleric prepares his spell, what he is actually doing is composing the prayers. These are in the language of the gods, a language that can only be used by mortal men to worship - all other uses are impossible, by the decree of the gods. The language is perfect in that it has an impossible precision - everything has it's own word, LeGuin style. They don't actually utter these prayers until the moment of casting - when they prepare them, they simply scribe them down or memorize them. When it's time to cast a spell, they utter the prayer and the god, if he favors the cleric, uses his magic to create the effect.
The prayer isn't forgotten by the cleric - while preparation includes memorization, it isn't as important. It's just that the prayer becomes worthless, it can never be used again since it's not unique anymore. The next day, the cleric has to compose a new prayer.
Of course, if the cleric hasn't uttered the prayer, he doesn't have to prepare it again. I'm not sure if that's core or not, but a cleric doesn't have to take the one hour preparation if he doesn't want to change or "refill" his spellcasting. He can't lose them just by not taking the time, so to speak. Of course, if he doesn't do his regular amount of common worship, the god might get upset anyway, but that's another matter.
Read Dragonlance. And how Raistlin describes it. It's written straight up as the spells leaving your memory.
Nah, I'm good.
When a wizard reads his spells to prepare them. He literal is spending hours repeating the words, makign sure he has the proper inflection, proper tones. It's hard work. And the shifting nature of magic, causes it to leave his brain once he's cast it.
I... don't care for this model at all. I think that 3e was right to remove this element (Dragonlance was 2e, it makes sense they did their best with it).
Pathfinder has an even greater opportunity to dispense with canonical fiction sources and forge their own description; one that makes more "sense" and better describes that behavior of magic. The memory/memory loss model heavily implies that spells work differently than they do (especially to new players).
This is all a matter of opinion, and I'm sure you can find a legion to support your view. But memorization is not for me.
Interesting. Do any of the other Pathfinder Tales ... or even the journals, elaborate on this kind of thing?
I must admit, I am less versed in the fiction than I should be.