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So while browsing threw some different posts last night, i ran into a discussion that i must say i would love to get other oppinions on.
So here comes the question.
Imagine a wizard (or ninja, he can do it too) fighting a bow wielding ranger. The wizard realises he will get torn to shreds, so he casts mirror image, and manages to conjure 7 copies of himself, meaning the ranger will have 1/8 of a chance to hit the right one, on a succesfull attack roll. The ranger then realises, that in case the wizard can keep up atleast a coupple illusions at all times (like casting mirror image maybe once every 4 turns), he will in fact have a higher chance to hit the wizard if he closes his eyes. This is due to the fact that mirror image specifically says the spell only works, if you dont already have total concealment. Lets say the Ranger is standing 200 f away. The possible rulings i can see would be.
a) GM would rule a ranged attack requires vision, thus the blinded condition makes the attack roll auto fail, and the ranger can therefore gain no benifit by closing his eyes.
b) The GM allow the ranger to attack with closed eyes (free action to close), thus granting the wizard full concealment during the attack (50% miss chance), still better than the 86% miss chance from mirror image, and then letting the ranger open his eyes right after (another free action), so he wont get any penaltys by fighting with closed eyes (no dex to ac, -2 ac, no aoo and so on) when the wizards allys attack him.
c) like option b, except ruling that firing with closed eyes is a choice till your next turn, thus you count as being blinded till your next turn, as the initiative order is simply an abstraction, and the stuff occur almost simultanious.
if option b or c, if an attack misses the wizard by less than 5, would an illusion from mirror image still disappear?
What im interested in knowing, is how would you rule it, and most importantly why? backup and referrals to RAW is ofcourse more than welcome.
and just so people dont have to look up everything.
School illusion (figment); Level bard 2, sorcerer/wizard 2
Casting Time 1 standard action
Components V, S
Range personal
Target you
Duration 1 min./level
This spell creates a number of illusory doubles of you that inhabit
your square. These doubles make it difficult for enemies to
precisely locate and attack you.
When mirror image is cast, 1d4 images plus one image per
three caster levels (maximum eight images total) are created.
These images remain in your space and move with you, mimicking
your movements, sounds, and actions exactly. Whenever you are
attacked or are the target of a spell that requires an attack roll, there
is a possibility that the attack targets one of your images instead. If
the attack is a hit, roll randomly to see whether the selected target
is real or a figment. If it is a figment, the figment is destroyed. If the
attack misses by 5 or less, one of your figments is destroyed by the
near miss. Area spells affect you normally and do not destroy any of
your figments. Spells and effects that do not require an attack roll
affect you normally and do not destroy any of your figments. Spells
that require a touch attack are harmlessly discharged if used to
destroy a figment.
An attacker must be able to see the figments to be fooled. If you
are invisible or the attacker is blind, the spell has no effect (although
the normal miss chances still apply).
to Armor Class, loses its Dexterity bonus to AC (if any), and
takes a –4 penalty on most Strength- and Dexterity-based
skill checks and on opposed Perception skill checks. All
checks and activities that rely on vision (such as reading
and Perception checks based on sight) automatically
fail.
All opponents are considered to have total concealment
(50% miss chance) against the blinded character.
Blind
creatures
must make a DC 10 Acrobatics skill check to
move faster than half speed. Creatures that fail this check
fall prone. Characters who remain blinded
for a long time
grow accustomed to these drawbacks and can overcome
some of them.
option b. it doesn´t work different when you want to worry about gaze attacks.
you can close your eyes, attack a medusa, then move away to a different room and open your eyes, all in one turn.
how can opening or closing your eyes be more restricted than TALKING? OK.
closing your eyes means missed attacks DON´t remove images at all (since yoú´re not interacting with the illusions), which is the down-side of doing this... so instead of several ranged full attacks stripping off all your MI´s, all attacks will continue to suffer 50% miss-chance over the full minute/level duration... meaning one MI spell can last an entire ´bad guy lair invasion duration´ (if they all close their eyes when attacking) rather than just one room´s occupants. (if the wizard is re-casting mirror image every couple rounds, that is wasting their actions and spellslots that could otherwise be more effective defensive/offensively)
Closing your eyes doesn´t negate the advantage of mirror image, it just makes mirror image function like Full Concealment, e.g. Displacement which is a higher level spell than Mirror Image with a signifigantly shorter duration.
But since this functioning was alleged to make MI itself ´worthless´, I´d say the only thing in question is why Displacement is a full spell level higher, when it´s only advantage is that MI can be ignored completely by visual illusion-immune targets (but True Seeing also bypasses Displacement).
a) GM would rule a ranged attack requires vision, thus the blinded condition makes the attack roll auto fail, and the ranger can therefore gain no benifit by closing his eyes.
- this would be against the raw. By the raw you may attack a square with ranged weapons, melee weapons, and spells that require attack rolls and hope for the best.
b) The GM allow the ranger to attack with closed eyes (free action to close), thus granting the wizard full concealment during the attack (50% miss chance), still better than the 86% miss chance from mirror image, and then letting the ranger open his eyes right after (another free action), so he wont get any penaltys by fighting with closed eyes (no dex to ac, -2 ac, no aoo and so on) when the wizards allys attack him.
-This is by the raw, how it should work. Also by the raw, the wizards allies can wait for the ranger to close his eyes and THEN hit him. If any of his friends are rogues, the ranger is in for a world of hurt.
-The wizard can also hold his action until the ranger closes his eyes and then run laps around the ranger in order to avoid him, since you can't make AOO with your eyes closed.
c) like option b, except ruling that firing with closed eyes is a choice till your next turn, thus you count as being blinded till your next turn, as the initiative order is simply an abstraction, and the stuff occur almost simultanious.
- by the raw initiative is real, not an abstraction. It can be dealt with, as seen above.
if option b or c, if an attack misses the wizard by less than 5, would an illusion from mirror image still disappear?
-the image gets a miss chance as well.
What im interested in knowing, is how would you rule it, and most importantly why? backup and referrals to RAW is ofcourse more than welcome.
B. The strategy of closing your eyes is good but hardly foolproof. a realy clever wizard could even wait till the ranger closes his eyes, take a 5 foot step back and cast another spell. The ranger misses the square he's aiming at and has no idea why.
You're forgetting part of the spell. Look:
These images remain in your space and move with you, mimicking
your movements, sounds, and actions exactly.
If the ranger is blinded, whether by darkness, a blindfold, or full-on blindness, he can still target things by means of sound. That's why he has a chance of hitting the wizard.
When the wizard casts Mirror Image, he not only gets reflections of himself but echoes to go with them, and those echoes are just as distracting as the original.
If the ranger blindfolds himself, he's just given himself a 50% miss chance on top of the chance of hitting the wrong image.
Let the character make a Knowledge Arcana roll to see if he understands this. If he fails, let him go with his clever plan of blindfolding himself and apply the extra penalties. If he makes the roll, explain to him that wizards have already thought of this problem when crafting the spell and thus included illusions not just for sound but stuff like air movement and body heat for fighting in close quarters.
You're forgetting part of the spell. Look:
These images remain in your space and move with you, mimicking
your movements, sounds, and actions exactly.If the ranger is blinded, whether by darkness, a blindfold, or full-on blindness, he can still target things by means of sound. That's why he has a chance of hitting the wizard.
When the wizard casts Mirror Image, he not only gets reflections of himself but echoes to go with them, and those echoes are just as distracting as the original.
If the ranger blindfolds himself, he's just given himself a 50% miss chance on top of the chance of hitting the wrong image.
Let the character make a Knowledge Arcana roll to see if he understands this. If he fails, let him go with his clever plan of blindfolding himself and apply the extra penalties. If he makes the roll, explain to him that wizards have already thought of this problem when crafting the spell and thus included illusions not just for sound but stuff like air movement and body heat for fighting in close quarters.
Mirror Image plainly states: "An attacker must be able to see the figments to be fooled. If you are invisible or the attacker is blind, the spell has no effect (although the normal miss chances still apply)."
Never mind Kevin beat me to it. I'd have them stack because it just sounds odd to me that you just saw 8 people yet closing your eyes makes you realize how to get closer to the original.
I'd allow the ranger to blind himself, but he will be closing his eyes till the beginning of his next action.
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You're forgetting part of the spell. Look:
These images remain in your space and move with you, mimicking
your movements, sounds, and actions exactly.If the ranger is blinded, whether by darkness, a blindfold, or full-on blindness, he can still target things by means of sound. That's why he has a chance of hitting the wizard.
When the wizard casts Mirror Image, he not only gets reflections of himself but echoes to go with them, and those echoes are just as distracting as the original.
If the ranger blindfolds himself, he's just given himself a 50% miss chance on top of the chance of hitting the wrong image.
Let the character make a Knowledge Arcana roll to see if he understands this. If he fails, let him go with his clever plan of blindfolding himself and apply the extra penalties. If he makes the roll, explain to him that wizards have already thought of this problem when crafting the spell and thus included illusions not just for sound but stuff like air movement and body heat for fighting in close quarters.
If you can't see the images then the spell doesn't effect you. It actually says this in the spell description. Closing your eyes is effectively changing it from a 1st level spell to a 3rd level spell (displacement for the 50-50). Game balance is maintained if he closes his eyes and opens them on his turn. Readied sneak attacks would discourage anyone from closing their eyes.
Yes, the spell does also state that blindness prevents it, even though blindness does not prevent hearing, and the spell also clearly states that it has sound as a component. In short, it's contradictory.
I don't have my 1st ed PHB handy, but I expect this is one of those editing problems that happens when something passes through multiple editions and all the patches and rewrites have not been fully thought through.
I'd rule as a GM that the easiest fix is to strike the business about blindness.
The more complicated one is to consider the spell levels of a spell that has purely visual illusion (and can thus be circumvented by blindness) and a better spell that has auditory, olfactory, and force components (to foil creatures that rely on hearing, scent, and sonar).
Mirror Image is currently a 2nd level spell. If you put the deluxe version at that level, that would put the visual only at 1st, which seems too low for such a useful spell. Contrawise, putting the visual at 2nd would put the deluxe at 3rd, which would make it compete with Fireball, and no wizard is going to pick one over the other. Ergo, it's best to just say the deluxe is 2nd level, there is no visual only version, and the text should read as written save for striking out the Blindness ruling.
...striking out the Blindness ruling.
Not even necessary.
It says Blindness negates, but the character isn't blind, just can't see, cause his eyes are closed. Why does this matter? Because the Ranger already SAW the illusions, and it already affected by the ruse. Yes I know that closing your eyes gives the blinded condition. But I would also decide that a person who was blinded by magical means would fall into the same category, if he perceived the illusion before being blinded. In fact, a wizard could use this to his advantage, yes?
So he closes his eyes and.. then what? shoots in the middle of the square hoping for the best? Like others have said above, he gets a 50% miss chance from total concealment, then he calculates if he hit the right target.
Many of the rules have to be taken as abstractions, but this one doesn't.
Here's an example:
Take 4 empty soda cans, have a friend drop a penny in one, and randomize them. Study the scene for as long as you like, cause it won't make a difference. Now close your eyes and throw something at the can with the penny to knock it down.
-This is by the raw, how it should work. Also by the raw, the wizards allies can wait for the ranger to close his eyes and THEN hit him. If any of his friends are rogues, the ranger is in for a world of hurt.
-The wizard can also hold his action until the ranger closes his eyes and then run laps around the ranger in order to avoid him, since you can't make AOO with your eyes closed.
B. The strategy of closing your eyes is good but hardly foolproof. a realy clever wizard could even wait till the ranger closes his eyes, take a 5 foot step back and cast another spell. The ranger misses the square he's...
So if this is how it works, then by induction you should also be able to do it with a medusa. A medusas gaze attack requires a saving throw if you start your turn with open eyes, but if you can keep your eyes closed till you attack, and then open them for attacking, closing them after, then you would by fluttering your eyes negate all gaze attacks in the book.
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So if this is how it works, then by induction you should also be able to do it with a medusa. A medusas gaze attack requires a saving throw if you start your turn with open eyes, but if you can keep your eyes closed till you attack, and then open them for attacking, closing them after, then you would by fluttering your eyes negate all gaze attacks in the book.
-This is by the raw, how it should work. Also by the raw, the wizards allies can wait for the ranger to close his eyes and THEN hit him. If any of his friends are rogues, the ranger is in for a world of hurt.
-The wizard can also hold his action until the ranger closes his eyes and then run laps around the ranger in order to avoid him, since you can't make AOO with your eyes closed.
B. The strategy of closing your eyes is good but hardly foolproof. a realy clever wizard could even wait till the ranger closes his eyes, take a 5 foot step back and cast another spell. The ranger misses the square he's...
You have three options when it comes to gaze attacks. Averting your eyes, closing your eyes or making a save. Averting offers a chance to ignore having to make a save but comes with a 20% miss chance. closing is obviously a 50% miss chance with no save. This is different than mirror image because you risk making the save if you ever look at a medusa.
So if this is how it works, then by induction you should also be able to do it with a medusa. A medusas gaze attack requires a saving throw if you start your turn with open eyes, but if you can keep your eyes closed till you attack, and then open them for attacking, closing them after, then you would by fluttering your eyes negate all gaze attacks in the book.
I don't think so. There is a HUGE difference between closing YOUR eyes for YOUR attack and, even if you don't read a gaze attack as constant, shutting YOUR eyes for SOMEONE ELSES action.
Gaze (Su) A gaze special attack takes effect when foes look at the attacking creature's eyes.
- so if you close and then open your eyes, you are then looking at them and subject to the gaze attack.
Averting Eyes: The opponent avoids looking at the creature's face, instead looking at its body, watching its shadow, tracking it in a reflective surface, etc. Each round, the opponent has a 50% chance to avoid having to make a saving throw against the gaze attack. The creature with the gaze attack, however, gains concealment against that opponent.
Wearing a Blindfold: The foe cannot see the creature at all (also possible to achieve by turning one's back on the creature or shutting one's eyes). The creature with the gaze attack gains total concealment against the opponent.
A creature with a gaze attack can actively gaze as an attack action by choosing a target within range. That opponent must attempt a saving throw but can try to avoid this as described above. Thus, it is possible for an opponent to save against a creature's gaze twice during the same round, once before the opponent's action and once during the creature's turn.
-since an adventurer isn't in control of when the opponent might actively gaze, they could at best ready an action to shut their eyes from the active gaze (if the dm ruled they could tell when it was coming) and then open them again... but they would still be subject to the passive gaze, and wouldn't have an action.
IMHO, there isn't a conflict between closing your eyes meaning images don't effect you and having sound effects.
This is magic we're talking about here. Illusion magic.
Who's to say somebody in the next room can't hear the jangling, swooshing images, but YOU in the same room CAN because you are effected (by seeing) the magic? Good enough for me.
If any version of Mirror Image were available at earlier levels, it would need to be MUCH more limited usage like ONLY 1 image ala Trickery Domain, not just 'visual only and no sounds'. BLUR is the 1st level to compare to, right? The spell directly says it is bypassed (though that means suffering blinded penalties, ON TOP of not actually 'completely removing penalties', but still having miss chance equivalent to the 3rd level Spell Displacement) by not being able to see it, so that is the 'keystone' sense, thus retaining that keystone sense is not really much of a downgrade vis a vis spell level.
The main change from 3.5 to PRPG was putting them all in your same space (which means enemies CAN always target your square and take the 50% miss chance... as if you has cast a higher level spell, displacement. Relevant flavor text in 3.5 to the vision/sound subject is as follows> I guess that MIGHT debatedly have allowed the images to fool opponents who used sound-based 'sight', but even in this version which MORE emphasized the sound aspect, shutting your eyes explicitly stops the spell effects. If anything, PRPG just clarified that.
Anyhow, besides the downsides I previously brought up, Norse Wolf brought up some more, namely that if opponents are regularly using this tactic, it's dead easy to Ready a 5' step away and waste their entire action (or Readied Move avoiding AoO's, or Readied Attack gaining attack bonuses) ...Making the spell now worth MORE than even a 3rd level spell, Displacement. Seriously, this tactic means the spell has the same as effect of Displacement, but 10x the duration.
so yeah, option b.
if you ready an action to step away, you have kinda ruined your own action anyway, as its a standard action to ready anything.
then from the bestiary
"Each opponent within range of a gaze attack must attempt
a saving throw each round at the beginning of his or her
turn in the initiative order. Only looking directly at a
creature with a gaze attack leaves an opponent vulnerable."
so you wouldnt have to fight with closed eyes at all, you would only need to start your turn by having them closed. If the rules work like you are suggesting.
I actually like Gruu's version of it, as the mirror image spell only says if you are blind. not if you are suffering from the blinded condition, at the point of attack, but is rather indicating you need to have been blind all the time. Your mind has already been affected by the illusion spell, becouse you have seen its effect. If you can negate a pure sight illusion simply by closing your eyes, and thus automaticly know which one is the right one, why cant that be done with a number of other sight based illusion spells such as silent image? By comparison you should just be able to close your eyes there, thus not be affected, and therefore realising its just an illusion.
would actually prefer some feedback from the developers on this i think, see if i can catch jason.
if you ready an action to step away, you have kinda ruined your own action anyway, as its a standard action to ready anything.
We're talking about CASTERS of Mirror Image here. Casters only need a Standard Action to do 95% of what they do.
(fyi, Ready an Action is a Standard Action which includes any other Standard Action as it's Readied Effect AND A 5' STEP AS PART OF THE READIED ACTION)I actually like Gruu's version of it, as the mirror image spell only says if you are blind. not if you are suffering from the blinded condition
...That just isn't a very convincing an argument. The game just doesn't work if you want to get that needly. Do you really need to grasp for these straws?
I just don't see what IS the problem with letting the opponent upgrade your 2nd level spell to the same effect as Displacement, a 3rd level spell, but with 10x the duration, rather than just one encounter (effectively)? (besides momentarily blinding themselves, opening up other opportunities - why not Disarm them with no AoO since they can't take AoOs vs. their penalized CMD, for example)
But that is exactly my point. Atleast some of it. If you have blind fight, you can negate mirror image, gaining a 25% miss chance instead of hitting a lot of mirror images (remember high level play).
The problem im having is not that i find it particularly unbalancing, but rather the fact you can negate a vision only based illusion spell simply by closing your eyes for a short time, not even getting any negative effects.
You also do realise that option b) which was the one you chose, involved closing and opening your eyes in the same round, thus preventing any negative effect (penalty to ac, no aoo, and so on). So ofcourse you cant exploit that he has no aoo, couse he will have.
yes, that is the option i was advocating, namely that closing your eyes isn't more strenuous than talking.
if you have an enemy regularly closing their eyes for attacks, so that you want to ready an action for when they start their 1st blind attack, your standard action happens before their attacks go off, and they are blinded during the duration of your readied action because it happens as an interrupt.
If you can negate a pure sight illusion simply by closing your eyes, and thus automaticly know which one is the right one, why cant that be done with a number of other sight based illusion spells such as silent image? By comparison you should just be able to close your eyes there, thus not be affected, and therefore realising its just an illusion.
No offense, this is just bonkers. Anybody with INT 8 already knows Mirror Image is an Illusion, or if not that specifically, they know that it's preventing them from hitting their real target, which is all they care about. Anybody can close their eyes, and blindly attack any given square with a 50% chance to hit what is in the square. Silent Image isn't really used to conceal valid melee targets, but if you already knew there was a target in the square of a silent image (because there's scorching rays emanating from that square towards you, of whatnot), there's likewise no reason you can't blindly attack into the square you target.
Now if you said there should be a skill check to REALIZE the potential momentary advantages of attacking blindly, then sure I'd definitely agree with you... Unfortunately the rules don't really cover that directly, though I wish they did. I would probably allow either Spellcraft or Know Arcana (I really don't know why PRPG didn't consolidate these skills, they literally do the same thing) with a DC of 10+ Spell Level for things like this where you don't literally need to know the spell details, just how it affects your choice of actions, i.e. visual targetting is actively impeding you, blind attacks can do just as good or better.
well, i would still think its wrong. Nothing against you personally, but my philosophy is that the rules should reflect reality, atleast to a degree. If we go by the ruling you suggest, the only reason why it should work that way, would be becouse its what the rules explain the best, they arnt clear on the subject. But my way would result in the most logical, atleast to me, explanation of how the rules should work, and as they arnt clear on it, thats how i and most i know would rule it.
can you explain why its not possible to exploit the gaze attacks likewise, according to your rule interpretation? becouse the check is only made at the beginning of your turn.
Its as science theory, good science is based on continuity, so should the rules. Continuity as in if you can close your eyes like that in one regard, why not for different rules, like gaze attacks.
besides there are no bonusses or penaltys in the game, as far as i remember, that lasts shorter than a full round, or untill your next turn.
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The way our gaming group has played combat Vs an invisible opponent is to remove the miniature from the grid. Attackers must first declare which square the are aiming for , then, if the invisible opponent is in that square, the 50% miss chance applies. Otherwise it's an air swing.
In the case of a blind PC, or one closing their eyes, I would blindfold the player, then on his go ask him to declare a square to shoot at. Using only sound to pinpoint the wizards location is going to attract some fairly heavy modifiers in the middle of battle (I'm OK with the audio component of the illusion only working when the illusion is seen).
This fellow players can't direct the Ranger to the Wizards location because they are subject to the illusion.
And no, on his first go, he can't just declare the last square the Wizard was in before the illusion was cast, because the last time he saw the Wizard he was subject to the illusion. Exactly which square was he in? He is subject to the same randomness as everyone else.
The Ranger is better off keeping his eyes open, and at the very least knocking out some of the mirror images so the whole party can benefit.
R.
The game just doesn't work if you want to get that needly. Do you really need to grasp for these straws?
The rules get this needly on the very subject of blindness.
blinded condition rules
The creature cannot see. It takes a –2 penalty to Armor Class, loses its Dexterity bonus to AC (if any), and takes a –4 penalty on most Strength- and Dexterity-based skill checks and on opposed Perception skill checks. All checks and activities that rely on vision (such as reading and Perception checks based on sight) automatically fail. All opponents are considered to have total concealment (50% miss chance) against the blinded character. Blind creatures must make a DC 10 Acrobatics skill check to move faster than half speed. Creatures that fail this check fall prone. Characters who remain blinded for a long time grow accustomed to these drawbacks and can overcome some of them.
Clearly there is a difference between a person who is blind, and a person who is blinded.
Furthermore:
This spell creates a number of illusory doubles of you that inhabit your square. These doubles make it difficult for enemies to precisely locate and attack you.
When mirror image is cast, 1d4 images plus one image per three caster levels (maximum eight images total) are created. These images remain in your space and move with you, mimicking your movements, sounds, and actions exactly. Whenever you are attacked or are the target of a spell that requires an attack roll, there is a possibility that the attack targets one of your images instead. If the attack is a hit, roll randomly to see whether the selected target is real or a figment. If it is a figment, the figment is destroyed. If the attack misses by 5 or less, one of your figments is destroyed by the near miss. Area spells affect you normally and do not destroy any of your figments. Spells and effects that do not require an attack roll affect you normally and do not destroy any of your figments. Spells that require a touch attack are harmlessly discharged if used to destroy a figment.
An attacker must be able to see the figments to be fooled. If you are invisible or the attacker is blind, the spell has no effect (although the normal miss chances still apply).
Saving Throws and Illusions (Disbelief)
Creatures encountering an illusion usually do not receive saving throws to recognize it as illusory until they study it carefully or interact with it in some fashion.
A successful saving throw against an illusion reveals it to be false, but a figment or phantasm remains as a translucent outline.
A failed saving throw indicates that a character fails to notice something is amiss. a character faced with proof that an illusion isn't real needs no saving throw. If any viewer successfully disbelieves an illusion and communicates this fact to others, each such viewer gains a saving throw with a +4 bonus.
Step 1: We must assume that Mirror Image produces several images that occupy a very close locale inside of 5 feet, and the real figure can be any one of these.
Step 2: As the spell is cast, any observers perceive the spell, and are fooledStep 3: An attacking character cannot disbelieve a figment until he has proof that it isn't real (This is what all the vanishing images are doing. An attack lands, thus giving everyone who sees the weapon slice through air without harming it immediate proof that it aint real.)
Mr Smarty Pants comes in at
Step 4: Smart guy closes his eyes and shoots. Since his target is moving around and trying not to be pin cushioned, Sir Smartsalot gets a 50/50 chance of maybe hitting the mark. Assuming he surpasses that, we need to figure out what mark he's hitting. Which of these lovely figments was he targeting? Or is he just shooting in the thick of it? He can't ignore the figments, cause he hasn't been able to disbelieve them yet.
Now here comes the fun part. One I hadn't considered before: How does a person, with his eyes close, perceive any proof that a figment isn't real? Yes, he might know that his shot didn't land. But which one didn't it land on? Each figment must be disbelieved in turn, so says the rules of Mirror Image. They each require proof of nonexistence and the perception thereof.
Unless you want to say he opens his eyes right before the weapon strikes.
Truthfully, I wouldn't enforce that ruling, but logically, it follows.
Quandary, yours and others arguments that this makes something or other better is not the point. Like I said earlier, sometimes there are rules that need abstraction and interpretation. This isn't one of them.
And no, on his first go, he can't just declare the last square the Wizard was in before the illusion was cast, because the last time he saw the Wizard he was subject to the illusion. Exactly which square was he in? He is subject to the same randomness as everyone else.
All of the illusions and the caster occupy the same square, as per the first line of the spell. This is a change from previous versions.
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All of the illusions and the caster occupy the same square, as per the first line of the spell. This is a change from previous versions.
Oh right. We obviously haven't hit this one since adopting the Pathfinder rules.
In that case, I'd go with Gruuu's direction - if the 50% miss chance is overcome then the wizard OR one of his images is randomly hit, assuming the Wizard hasn't moved before the Ranger opens fire...
Well... For what it's worth here is how I would rule it :
- The ranger can close his eyes at the begining of his turn, then has to concentrate on his hearing (move action) and then can fire his arrow with only 50% miss chance, then open his eyes...
I think the rule of cool back me on this one, in movies you always see the hero who wants to hit an invisible opponent, or the evil ninja with multiple image close his eyes, concentrate and shoot a single arrow, or give a single sword slash right in the neck of the villain who die with surprise in his eye...
Rulewise I would ask for a perception check (DC 20 + distance modifier) if failed by less than 5 then he hit an illusion, if failed by more than five then he attack an empty square (or with a rat in it if it can be here for some reason, just for fun :p )
Well... For what it's worth here is how I would rule it :
- The ranger can close his eyes at the begining of his turn, then has to concentrate on his hearing (move action) and then can fire his arrow with only 50% miss chance, then open his eyes...
I think the rule of cool back me on this one, in movies you always see the hero who wants to hit an invisible opponent, or the evil ninja with multiple image close his eyes, concentrate and shoot a single arrow, or give a single sword slash right in the neck of the villain who die with surprise in his eye...Rulewise I would ask for a perception check (DC 20 + distance modifier) if failed by less than 5 then he hit an illusion, if failed by more than five then he attack an empty square (or with a rat in it if it can be here for some reason, just for fun :p )
Mirror Image copies sounds as well. You have 4+ sources of some guy grunting, sliding his feet around, swishing through the air, speaking, etc all coming from a slightly wider area than usual.
Mirror Image copies sounds as well. You have 4+ sources of some guy grunting, sliding his feet around, swishing through the air, speaking, etc all coming from a slightly wider area than usual.
Since "An attacker must be able to see the figments to be fooled. If you
are invisible or the attacker is blind, the spell has no effect (althoughthe normal miss chances still apply)."
I would allow the ranger to give up his full attack and any chance of movement in order to go from 1 on 8 chance for 1 on 2 chance. And of course no precision damage can be added on it... ;)
Mirror Image copies sounds as well. You have 4+ sources of some guy grunting, sliding his feet around, swishing through the air, speaking, etc all coming from a slightly wider area than usual.Since "An attacker must be able to see the figments to be fooled. If you
are invisible or the attacker is blind, the spell has no effect (although
the normal miss chances still apply)."
I would allow the ranger to give up his full attack and any chance of movement in order to go from 1 on 8 chance for 1 on 2 chance. And of course no precision damage can be added on it... ;)
And that's all well and good, but a house rule nonetheless.
Niklas was asking this originally because the thread it came up in was a playtest. Someone was testing Pirates vs Ninjas (Gunslinger vs ...Ninja) and this situation came up. He was looking for rules that supported one or the other.
Mirror Image is already stupidly powerful against physical attackers for a second level spell, it really doesn't need to be made even better. The 50% miss chance when closing your eyes is a valid tactic against it, IMO. And, as pointed out above, it can be worked against.
The real power with Mirror Image is, btw., that it stacks with other defensive spells like Displacement and Blink ( which themselves stack with each other ).
Mirror Image is already stupidly powerful against physical attackers for a second level spell, it really doesn't need to be made even better. The 50% miss chance when closing your eyes is a valid tactic against it, IMO. And, as pointed out above, it can be worked against.
The real power with Mirror Image is, btw., that it stacks with other defensive spells like Displacement and Blink ( which themselves stack with each other ).
It's not being made better, it is what it is. The attacker further hinders himself when he closes his eyes (go figure).
However what WOULD work is if the attacker got a spellcraft check off as the caster began the spell, and reacted by closing his eyes before the spell went off (if we say that closing your eyes can be an immediate action, which is a no-brainer). But I don't really see that as much benefit at all, since he has to keep his eyes closed or be fooled by the illusion.
Like I said earlier, musing over the power and usage of the spell doesn't lend much to determine the specific rules. If you want to house-rule it, that's ok. Likewise an argument against my understanding of the rules would be perfectly welcome and warranted (as would commentary from one of the developers!).
It's not being made better, it is what it is. The attacker further hinders himself when he closes his eyes (go figure).
However what WOULD work is if the attacker got a spellcraft check off as the caster began the spell, and reacted by closing his eyes before the spell went off (if we say that closing your eyes can be an immediate action, which is a no-brainer). But I don't really see that as much benefit at all, since he has to keep his eyes closed or be fooled by the illusion.
Like I said earlier, musing over the power and usage of the spell doesn't lend much to determine the specific rules. If you want to house-rule it, that's ok. Likewise an argument against my understanding of the rules would be perfectly welcome and warranted (as would commentary from one of the developers!).
I don't need to houserule jack. The spell is pretty clear that it is reliant on the sight of the attacker. Furthermore, the very next sentence repeats that, by saying that Invisibility cancels the utility of this spell.
Besides that, the whole discussion is pretty useless anyway. When you close your eyes, you attack the square the target is in ( as per page 197 of the core rulebook, under the section "Total Concealment") . You don't rely on hearing to do that at all.
[It could be argued that YOUR interpreation of it is a house rule.
Uh, how is reading the words as they are written a houserule?
Thats the problem with arguing RAW, different people read it differently.
Actually there are no secondary interpretations to the words in question.
[It could be argued that YOUR interpreation of it is a house rule.Uh, how is reading the words as they are written a houserule?
Thats the problem with arguing RAW, different people read it differently.Actually there are no secondary interpretations to the words in question.That is one of the funny things about reading things. Since I quoted the person who disagreed with you and who was saying your rule was a house rule. I was actually agreeing with you. I was saying that his interpretation could be viewed as a house rule.
To be clear I think the rules say if you close your eyes (and take those penalties) you can ignore the Mirror Image. I don't consider that a house rule but the RAW.
HOWEVER some people read the same rules I do and view my understanding of it as a House rule and are convinced that they are the purveyors of RAW.
Yeah, sorry if I came off as crabby. That whole part of the discussion is pretty moot anyway, as I pointed out above. If your target has total concealment ( as it has when you close your eyes ), you do not target it, but you are blindly shooting into the square it is standing in, as per RAW on page 197 under total concealment.
I don't need to houserule jack. The spell is pretty clear that it is reliant on the sight of the attacker. Furthermore, the very next sentence repeats that, by saying that Invisibility cancels the utility of this spell.Besides that, the whole discussion is pretty useless anyway. When you close your eyes, you attack the square the target is in ( as per page 197 of the core rulebook, under the section "Total Concealment") . You don't rely on hearing to do that at all.
So if my character saw the most horrific monster hurdling towards him he should just close his eyes, and everything will be ok?
You actually can close your eyes to get a 50% miss chance. However it is assumed your eyes stay closed until your next. You don't get to close your eyes, and open them when it is convenient for you. I think Sean covered that in another thread. I will post the link if I can find it.
So if my character saw the most horrific monster hurdling towards him he should just close his eyes, and everything will be ok?
I don't need to houserule jack. The spell is pretty clear that it is reliant on the sight of the attacker. Furthermore, the very next sentence repeats that, by saying that Invisibility cancels the utility of this spell.Besides that, the whole discussion is pretty useless anyway. When you close your eyes, you attack the square the target is in ( as per page 197 of the core rulebook, under the section "Total Concealment") . You don't rely on hearing to do that at all.
How does that relate in any shape or form to our current discussion? Phantasmal Killer is an instant effect which is mind-affecting. You can't "close your eyes" to it, since it happens instantly and not on your initiative.
You actually can close your eyes to get a 50% miss chance. However it is assumed your eyes stay closed until your next. You don't get to close your eyes, and open them when it is convenient for you. I think Sean covered that in another thread. I will post the link if I can find it.
That'd be nice to know, please look for it. A bit surprising, though, since "opening/closing" your eyes certainly seems like a free action to me.
So if my character saw the most horrific monster hurdling towards him he should just close his eyes, and everything will be ok?
I don't need to houserule jack. The spell is pretty clear that it is reliant on the sight of the attacker. Furthermore, the very next sentence repeats that, by saying that Invisibility cancels the utility of this spell.Besides that, the whole discussion is pretty useless anyway. When you close your eyes, you attack the square the target is in ( as per page 197 of the core rulebook, under the section "Total Concealment") . You don't rely on hearing to do that at all.
It will only work if you see a
How does that relate in any shape or form to our current discussion? Phantasmal Killer is an instant effect which is mind-affecting. You can't "close your eyes" to it, since it happens instantly and not on your initiative.So if my character saw the most horrific monster hurdling towards him he should just close his eyes, and everything will be ok?
I don't need to houserule jack. The spell is pretty clear that it is reliant on the sight of the attacker. Furthermore, the very next sentence repeats that, by saying that Invisibility cancels the utility of this spell.Besides that, the whole discussion is pretty useless anyway. When you close your eyes, you attack the square the target is in ( as per page 197 of the core rulebook, under the section "Total Concealment") . You don't rely on hearing to do that at all.
It relates because it encompasses many of the rules in question. Namely: illusions, perception, and becoming sightless.
If you prefer,
color spray
By your judgement, creatures with 4 HD or less would never be stunned, since they become sightless when they go blind and/or unconscious.
The point I'm making is that closing your eyes does not negate an illusion you've already seen.
Unless someone can argue that ruling.
It relates because it encompasses many of the rules in question. Namely: illusions, perception, and becoming sightless.
No, it doesn't, because Mirror Image is not mind-affecting, like Phantasmal Killer or Color Spray.
It relates because it encompasses many of the rules in question. Namely: illusions, perception, and becoming sightless.No, it doesn't, because Mirror Image is not mind-affecting, like Phantasmal Killer or Color Spray.
I could buy that. That is something I overlooked.
The trouble is, the RAW is contradictory meaning you only have to go with RAI.
The differences in the RAI approaches is that one camp is the folk who like to use loopholes and rules exploits based on the exact wording of the rules and the other half likes to apply the logic of both the real world and the game world as well as the spirit of the rules (and to that end I would recommend that everyone read Monte Cook's "Haunted by the Spirit of the Rules" in the latest Kobold Quarterly {which is also available as a free download until February 9th if you have a friend send you the coupon code}).
I'm firmly in the second camp, and as such find it perfectly logical to say that if you are fighting one gesticulating chanting wizard with a hissing cat on his shoulder and suddenly you're facing four gesticulating chanting wizards with hissing cats on their shoulders choreographed shuffling around each other like a human version of three card monte with quadrophonic sound, if you close your eyes, you're still hearing four chanting shuffling wizards and their quadrophonic hissing cats. Short of some magical means to pierce through the illusion, such as True Seeing, or some special variety of "Luke! Use the Force!" zen-esque blindfighting technique where you are supernaturally sensing the location of your target, closing your eyes should simply apply the blindness penalties on top of the penalties that are already there.
From both a literary and a logic perspective, the people with True Seeing should be better off than the people just running around shouting "I disbelieve!" and the supernaturally skilled zen blindfighters should do a bit better than just any idiot who pulls his hat over his eyes.
The trouble is, the RAW is contradictory meaning you only have to go with RAI.
The differences in the RAI approaches is that one camp is the folk who like to use loopholes and rules exploits based on the exact wording of the rules and the other half likes to apply the logic of both the real world and the game world as well as the spirit of the rules (and to that end I would recommend that everyone read Monte Cook's "Haunted by the Spirit of the Rules" in the latest Kobold Quarterly {which is also available as a free download until February 9th if you have a friend send you the coupon code}).
I'm firmly in the second camp, and as such find it perfectly logical to say that if you are fighting one gesticulating chanting wizard with a hissing cat on his shoulder and suddenly you're facing four gesticulating chanting wizards with hissing cats on their shoulders choreographed shuffling around each other like a human version of three card monte with quadrophonic sound, if you close your eyes, you're still hearing four chanting shuffling wizards and their quadrophonic hissing cats. Short of some magical means to pierce through the illusion, such as True Seeing, or some special variety of "Luke! Use the Force!" zen-esque blindfighting technique where you are supernaturally sensing the location of your target apart, closing your eyes should simply apply the blindness penalties on top of the penalties that are already there.
From both a literary and a logic perspective, the people with True Seeing should be better off than the people just running around shouting "I disbelieve!" and the supernaturally skilled zen blindfighters should do a bit better than just any idiot who pulls his hat over his eyes.
They are, they have a 0% miss chance. You still attack into the square when you close your eyes, which gives you a 50% miss chance. That supercedes both Mirror Image and Displacement ( but not Blink, IIRC ).
The link I misremember applies to displacement and mirror image.
Here is the deal.
Mirror image only works if you can see it because the spell says so. General trumps specific so the noise issue is a non factor.
With your eyes closed you only have to deal with concealment, but you don't get to just use a free action to close your eyes to circumvent a spell. <---If the spell was that easy to circumvent it wouldn't even be worth having in the book. When you close your eyes they stay closed.
Combat is ongoing in the game. Because we in real life take turn we sometime forget the characters actions never really stop. When you close your eyes they stay closed for the entire six seconds of your attack which leads all the way up to your next turn at which time you can choose to keep them closed or open them just like you would for a gaze attack.
How does that relate in any shape or form to our current discussion? Phantasmal Killer is an instant effect which is mind-affecting. You can't "close your eyes" to it, since it happens instantly and not on your initiative.So if my character saw the most horrific monster hurdling towards him he should just close his eyes, and everything will be ok?
I don't need to houserule jack. The spell is pretty clear that it is reliant on the sight of the attacker. Furthermore, the very next sentence repeats that, by saying that Invisibility cancels the utility of this spell.Besides that, the whole discussion is pretty useless anyway. When you close your eyes, you attack the square the target is in ( as per page 197 of the core rulebook, under the section "Total Concealment") . You don't rely on hearing to do that at all.
It relates because it encompasses many of the rules in question. Namely: illusions, perception, and becoming sightless.
If you prefer,
color spray
By your judgement, creatures with 4 HD or less would never be stunned, since they become sightless when they go blind and/or unconscious.The point I'm making is that closing your eyes does not negate an illusion you've already seen.
Unless someone can argue that ruling.
It is not related because you have to take in everything as a whole. Your ability to currently see something determines your change to hit it. Either you can see it or you can't. If you can't see it then all you can do is attack into the square which is a 50% miss chance.
The phantasmal killer spell is a terrible example because you make the save upon seeing it before you even close your eyes and color spray is the same way. With mirror image the affect of the spell depends upon you seeing it because the spell specifically says so.