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Drawing an eye wound and a gut wound on the same shot reminds me of the old Dwarf Fortress arrows. You know, the seriously non-euclidean kind of arrow that could pierce your dwarf's brain, right kidney, both lungs, and three toes (two of them on the left foot), yet leave the chest and stomach undamaged.
This is a neat idea, and could potentially be the thing that saves the Gunslinger class, if they decide against proper full attack friendly weapons.
My feelings of misfires aside, I could see things working this way:
There is really only one actual shot and hit. Anything that relies on hitting separately is ignored on the subsequent attack roles.
This means that things like misfire chance, critical status effects (blinding critical, etc), stuff like that is dependent only on the first attack roll.
All subsequent attack rolls are for damage only. You can still critical hit those secondary rolls, they just don't give a second chance to misfire or to blind or stagger the target.
Think of it like a "super" Vital Strike ability.
I was suggesting something to make a single shot more devastating for the Gunslinger, and this might just pull it off.
Edit: What's nice is that this gives a real "exploding damage" style of effect, without getting into the exploding dice mechanics. That edge of the seat, "did I get more damage" effect is there without messing with the average damage dice and "d4s vs d6s", etc.
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Kaisoku:
Yes, I think this works nicely as well. Yours is sightly more on the nerf side though, 'cause cancelling all other attacks for a high level gunslinger if he misses the first roll could be a bummer. I think the iterative attacks already reduce by 5 after each hit, which in itself takes care of reducing the chance for that massive damage... no?
Say the guy fires on a AC 10 target: all four iterative attacks hit for massive damage.
Against AC 45 target... maybe one or two attacks hit, and sometimes only because he rolls a 20... so negating all attacks if the first doesn't roll enough to hit AC 45 is kind of a bummer... keeping it as if they were all separate attacks is the simplest! Keep it Simple they say - all we're trying to do here is to nip the cost of ammo and reload problems in the bud... the rest should stay regular D&D... err.. Pathfinder! :)
Edit: Oh! and the Pickle Method I've discussed so far assumes they do away with the Touch AC concept... just to be clear, what I mean when I say "against AC 45 target" is just that, regular old AC 45, as if you'd swing a sword at it...
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I have to say, this idea is exceptional. It works mechanically (asides from a few details that are still being discussed), and requires the least change to just about anything.
As was also noted, it allows for good use of many different kinds of firearms.
It also provides a different feel for gunslinger as opposed to ranger. The ranger will always be much better at getting off more shots at potentially more targets, whereas the gunslinger gets a single devastating shot (or two) each time.
Welcome to the Pickle Club! [club has been upgraded! PDK hands out brand new unopened, freshly purchased dill pickle jars instead of individual pickles... much joy results from this]
Kaisoku:
Yes, I think this works nicely as well. Yours is sightly more on the nerf side though, 'cause cancelling all other attacks for a high level gunslinger if he misses the first roll could be a bummer. I think the iterative attacks already reduce by 5 after each hit, which in itself takes care of reducing the chance for that massive damage... no?
He is only suggesting cancelling 'add-on' effects for rolls past the first: critical mastery feats, possible class features that apply bleed, that sort of thing.
Two more things I just thought of:
1)What seems like a reasonable way to handle elemental damage from magic bullets? Do you get the +1d6 damage per attack roll, or only applied once since you are only using(and paying for) one bullet?
2)Since you now have to deal with DR, does all the damage get totaled for the attack and then applied to the DR, or is each roll effected by DR separately?
My preference would be the following, but I could be convinced by some good math to change my mind:
I like only getting your elemental damage once(you only paid for that magic bullet once, after all), but also applying all of your rolled damage at once against the opponents DR. I think the combined damage vs. normal DR approach does a nice job of mimicking the armor penetrating quality of bullets, something we need to represent since we are now talking about shooting against normal AC and not Touch AC. Obviously, DR isn't an issue if we stick with attacking Touch AC.
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Kaisoku:
Yes, I think this works nicely as well. Yours is sightly more on the nerf side though, 'cause cancelling all other attacks for a high level gunslinger if he misses the first roll could be a bummer. I think the iterative attacks already reduce by 5 after each hit, which in itself takes care of reducing the chance for that massive damage... no?
He is only suggesting cancelling 'add-on' effects for rolls past the first: critical mastery feats, possible class features that apply bleed, that sort of thing.
Two more things I just thought of:
1)What seems like a reasonable way to handle elemental damage from magic bullets? Do you get the +1d6 damage per attack roll, or only applied once since you are only using(and paying for) one bullet?
2)Since you now have to deal with DR, does all the damage get totaled for the attack and then applied to the DR, or is each roll effected by DR separately?
My preference would be the following, but I could be convinced by some good math to change my mind:
I like only getting your elemental damage once(you only paid for that magic bullet once, after all), but also applying all of your rolled damage at once against the opponents DR. I think the combined damage vs. normal DR approach does a nice job of mimicking the armor penetrating quality of bullets, something we need to represent since we are now talking about shooting against normal AC and not Touch AC. Obviously, DR isn't an issue if we stick with attacking Touch AC.
1) +1d6 to all attack rolls... treat like separate attacks. This is the perk of this proposed "Aiming (Ex)" class feature. Chalk it to the fact that the bullet is INSIDE you when it delivers its fire/shocking/acid damage! LOL!
2) to simplify, take total damage and apply to DR... I totally agree with you! one of the perks of the class I guess (and realistically replicates the punching effect of a bullet) Same thing goes for flaming bullets I say: total the flaming damage of all attacks and apply to energy resistance. Please note that this is a perk yes, but that there are drawbacks with guns (i.e. one target not multiple targets, can't fire poisoned bullets, etc.)
Can we get one of the Paizo folks to acknowledge this thread? I just would feel a lot better knowing that they are aware of this before going into the next round of playtesting.
Can we get one of the Paizo folks to acknowledge this thread? I just would feel a lot better knowing that they are aware of this before going into the next round of playtesting.
they are aware it was talked about in another thread by James Jacobs.
Im also Play testing it tonight.
I do like this Idea, put me in the club.
RPG Superstar Season 9 Top 16, RPG Superstar 2015 Top 32
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Wait a sec... when and where did he comment on this idea. I just looked at his recent comments and I found nothing specifically on this pickle idea. Can you link please?
I am back and forth on this idea. I can see where it is going, but what about a situation where the gunslinger can full attack normally?
Say for example, the gunslinger was using a revolver? Or reloading was a free action?
From what I understand here, I could choose to shoot one bullet and roll three attack dice or I can fire three bullets and roll three attack dice. If I read everything here clearly, here is what I understand the difference is between the two.
Pickle Shot:
You fire one shot but roll three (or four if high enough level) d20s as if you are using a full attack. If my full attack was 20/15/10 then the first roll would be at +20, the second +15, and the third +10. It would be like seeing if the bullet deals damage as it enters the body, travels through the body, and exits the body. It seems like the jury is still out on critical hits and misfires, but it was suggested that only the first roll would count for either.
Normal Full Attack:
You fire multiple bullets and each one is a separate attack, and thus uses separate die rolls. Critical hits will work for each shot, and misfires will also work for each shot.
Now, besides the fact that this would be a great way to conserve bullets, I don't see much more of a reason to pick pickle over full attack. Sure, I might only have one real chance for a misfire, but I will also only have one chance for a critical as the idea stands.
Hold on... I need a pickle and then I am going to brainstorm this...
Okay, I have a pickle. *Bite*
How I we make this an attractive but not overpowered option? What balance do we give this?
How about this?
-One bullet is shot as a full round action.
-This single bullet is treated as a full attack, and thus multiple attack dice are thrown.
-If a critical hit is rolled and confirmed it will only apply to the first successful attack.
-If additional critical hits are rolled after the first one, they increase the multiplier of the first critical hit by one step.
-If a misfire is rolled, the gun is considered broken and the other rolls are considered misses but they must still be rolled. If the following rolls would be misfires the firearm explodes.
-If a critical hit is rolled and confirmed, and then followed by a misfire, the critical multiplier is decreased by one. The gun does not misfire.
-If a misfire is rolled and then is followed by a critical hit, the gun does not misfire, but all rolls still automatically miss.
-After all the rolls are made, damage is figured for each roll. Critical hit damage is only applied to one roll.
-The damage is added together for the purposes of massive damage.
I am going to assume the touch attack wont apply.
A few examples to help clarify:
In each of these, I shoot a musket against an AC of 23. My full attack is +20/+15/+10.
My natural rolls are 10, 7, and 14. My first attack hits, second misses, and third hits. The miss wouldn't cancel the other attacks. I roll damage and the results are 10 and 8. I dealt a total of 18 damage.
2nd example:
I roll 20 (and confirm), 20 (and confirm) and 20 (and confirm.) All attacks hit, and the critical multiplier increases from x4 to x6. For damage I roll 11, which increases to 66 because of the x6 critical, 8, and 10. Total damage is 84, massive damage rules apply.
3rd example:
I roll 1, 16, and 3. The first roll is a misfire, the second would have hit but is a miss from the misfire, the third is also a misfire and the gun explodes. Likewise, if the first roll was 16 and the second was a 1, the 16 would miss and the gun would explode.
4th example:
I roll 16, 20 (confirm), and 1. I hit with the first and second. The second is a critical hit but with a x3 multiplier because of the misfire roll. The misfire roll didn't give the gun the broken condition though, it only decreased the critical multiplier. If the 1 came before the 20, all three rolls automatically miss but the gun didn't misfire.
Thoughts?
I think the benefits and drawbacks of the above would help me think about if I want to shoot one or three bullets.
I've been following your thread (both this one and the one it was moved from) and I think this is a solid idea with the full attack appplying to only one bullet. I'd like to see a few examples from our OPs on how this whole thing will work. So if Kriptik or Purple Dragon Knight would oblige, using all the appropriate ideas from this threat. No touch attack applies.
Use the following Stats for the examples. Plese include the following examples with their end round results
1) all normal hit rolls
2) one with miss rolls included
3) one with multiple crits/confirms
4) one with a natural 1 on the first roll only
5) one with mutiple missfires
Please use the following Character Stats (I think I figured them out right)
Anton Smythe - Gunslinger 16th level
BAB +16/+11/+6/+1
Dex 20 (+5)
Weapon: +4 distance frost keen musket (equivalent of a +7 weapon; range doubled to 80 ft., +1d6 cold damage, threat range increases to 19-20/x4)
Test Target Fire Giant (AC 24, fire subtype)
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We will be playtesting this tomorrow most likely, but just at the 11th level version. I will use the Anton Smythe stats Elghinn came up with, using a weaker musket that is appropriate for 11th level PC. What do you suggest the weapon should be like for an 11th level PC? If someone wants to come up with the gear for 11th level Anton Smythe that would be great as I am away on business tomorrow and will come back home just two hours before the game... (hey, if someone wants to make the full stats, even better! we use a 25 point build in this campaign -- Council of Thieves, average party level is now 11)
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Does race not matter? Or alternative race traits?
Human please. Probably reactionary and Isger Fixer (haflings of golarion) traits to keep it simple. -> isger fixer lets you ignore the broken condition on an item for 24 hours... i think it might come in handy for the gunslinger... :)
Deadly Aim for sure, yes! :)
How about this?
-One bullet is shot as a full round action.
-This single bullet is treated as a full attack, and thus multiple attack dice are thrown.
-If a critical hit is rolled and confirmed it will only apply to the first successful attack.
-If additional critical hits are rolled after the first one, they increase the multiplier of the first critical hit by one step.
-If a misfire is rolled, the gun is considered broken and the other rolls are considered misses but they must still be rolled. If the following rolls would be misfires the firearm explodes.
-If a critical hit is rolled and confirmed, and then followed by a misfire, the critical multiplier is decreased by one. The gun does not misfire.
-If a misfire is rolled and then is followed by a critical hit, the gun does not misfire, but all rolls still automatically miss.
-After all the rolls are made, damage is figured for each roll. Critical hit damage is only applied to one roll.
-The damage is added together for the purposes of massive damage.
Too complex.
Just treat it as a full attack action within a single shot. The gun cannot gain more than one broken condition per-shot. Critical multipliers reduce slowly one by one as you get additional critical hits, but still stack. 4.3.2.1.
If you have a second gun you can shoot at a second target. If you have rapid shot, you can choose to which gun it applies. Think of it more like 'rapid aim' than 'rapid shot'. Improved and Greater TWF allow second and third iterative rolls on the offhand pistol, just like the iterative rolls on the primary pistol.
Remember that 'fumble charts' and 'critical misses' are -Extremely Unfairly Biased- against your players! It's bad enough this weapon is already created with a built in critical fumble, don't compound things. If you make a 1 cause an auto-miss on the weapon, you are punishing players once again and preventing them from making full attacks, AND making full attacks more risky to use! Once again, a full attack action from a L20 gunslinger means they have 4 5% chances to foul their gun, as opposed to the 1 5% chance to foul the gun a first level gunslinger has. Isn't that already bad enough?
IE:
+20/+15/+10, with a +1 Flaming Pistol
#1
Roll 1/14/20 (Confirm); The gun gains the broken condition, but hits twice, once a confirmed critical hit; The pistol deals 2d8+2d6+(x4-1=3d8) damage. The backwash and dirty powder leaves bad residue in the gun, but that doesn't stop you from firing. It just makes it very probable the gun WILL explode on the next shot. This still only costs a single bullet and a single charge of powder.
#2
Roll 1/2/1; The gun misfires and gains the broken condition. The bullet rolls sadly out the muzzle and bounces on the ground. It does not explode. Sadly, it still costs 11gp worth of shot and powder...
#3
Roll 20(confirm)/17/20(confirm); The gun drills a hole in the guys chest. It deals 3d8+3d6+(x4+3=7d8) damage and probably destroys the target. This still costs only a single bullet and a single charge of powder.
#4
Roll 13/17/1; There's a flash of misfire, but the gun still puts a bullet in the target. It deals 2d8+2d6 damage. The gun gains the broken condition, it is dirty from the bad charge.
Here you go. I didn't pick any deeds.
ANTON SMYTHE
CG human gunslinger 11
Starting Wealth 82,000 gp (spent 81,070 gp)
Init +9; Senses Perception +16
Defense
AC 25, touch 17, flat-footed 20 (+8 armor, +5 Dex, +2 deflection)
hp 92 (11d10+22)
Fort +8, Ref +15, Will +9
Offense
Speed 30 ft. (in armor)
Melee +13/+8/+3 +1; rapier (1d6+2, 18-20/x2)
Ranged +18/+13/+8; +2 reliable keen musket (1d12+2, 19–20/x4; misfire 1; +1d6 cold)
Class Abilities grit (3 pt), deeds, brave and tough (+3 Fort/Will saves vs. fear), gun training (musket, pistol…),
Statistics
Str 12, [b]Dex 20 (16 base, +2 racial, +2 level), Con 14, Int 14, Wis 17, Cha 10
Base Atk +11/+6/+1; CMB +12; CMD +27
Racial Adjustments +2 to any one ability, 1 bonus feat at 1st level, 1 skill rank per level
Feats (6+2 bonus) Combat Reflexes, Deadly Aim, Improved Initiative, Point-Blank Master*, Point-Blank Shot, Rapid Shot, Step Up, Weapon Specialization (musket) *(APG)
Skills Acrobatics (Dex) +15, Bluff (Cha) +8, Climb (Str) +9, Craft (gunsmith) (Int) +10, Intimidate (Cha) +13, Knowledge (Engineering) +13, Perception (Wis) +16, Ride (Dex) +13
Languages Common, Draconic, Elven
Equipment
+2 mithral breastplate – 8,200gp
+1 rapier (1d6+2, 18-20/x2) – 2,320 gp
+2 reliable keen musket (1d12+2, 19–20/x4; +1d6 cold) – 33,800 gp
ring of protection +2 – 4,000 gp
all tools vest* – 900 gp
bag of holding II – 5,000 gp
boots of levitation – 3,750 gp
cloak of resistance +3 – 9,000 gp
goggles of night – 6,000 gp
headband of inspired wisdom (+4) – 8,000 gp
bullets (100) – 100 gp
black powder (100 doses) – 1,000 gp
*(APG)
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I'll be back later to see how people think i could improve this build.
I may have calculated the skills wrong, it's 2:30 here so i apologize.
Edit:I thought the keen enchantment was for melee weapons only because it's not on the ranged weapon enchantment table.
Starting Wealth: 82,000 Spent: 81,050
Anton Smythe – Gunslinger 11
N Medium Humanoid (Human)
Init +9
Senses Perception +21
DEFENSE
AC 25, touch 17, flat-footed 20 (+8 armor, +5 Dex, +2 Ring)
hp 99 (11d10+33)
Fort +8, Ref +12, Will +8 (+11 vs Fear)
OFFENSE
Speed 30 ft.
Melee
Ranged +3 Distance Seeking Musket w/Deadly Aim, Point Blank Shot, Rapid Shot +16/+16/+11/+6 (1d12+14+bleed 5)
Class Abilities grit (5 pt), deeds, brave and tough (+3 Fort/Will saves vs. fear), gun training (musket, pistol…)
STATISTICS
Str 10, Dex 20, Con 14, Int 12, Wis 20, Cha 8
Base Atk +11/+6/+1; CMB +11; CMD 26
Feats 6+2+1
1 Rapid Reload
Human Deadly Aim
3 Point Blank Shot
4B Weapon Focus
5 Lightning Reload Deed
7 Point Blank Master
8B Weapon Specialization
9 Rapid Shot
11 Signature Deed (Bleeding Wound)
Skills Acrobatics +19 , Craft (gunsmith) +15, Knowledge (Local) +15,Perception +21
Traits Reactionary, Isger Fixer
Languages Common, Draconic
GEAR
+3 distance seeking musket
+2 mithral breastplate – 8,200
ring of protection +2 – 4,000
bag of holding I – 5,000
boots of levitation – 3,750
headband of inspired wisdom (+4) – 8,000
bullets (200) – 200
black powder (200 doses) – 2,000
eyes of the eagle – 2,500
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I figured out a way to make this even better! It's called getting my prices right.
+3 distance musket – 33,800
+2 mithral breastplate – 8,350
ring of protection +2 – 8,000
bag of holding I – 2,500
boots of levitation – 7,500
headband of inspired wisdom (+4) – 16,000
bullets (200) – 200
black powder (200 doses) – 2,000
eyes of the eagle – 2,500
Potion of haste – 750
Starting Wealth: 82,000 Spent: 81,600
This is what it should look like. sorry about that.
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Thank you Elghin and Sarcon!
Elghinn: where is the cold damage coming from? also, shouldn't it be 9 feats total? Point Blank Master is a really nice suggestion, and very tempting! Keen is a great idea!
Sarcon: solid build! tempted to swap from +3 to +2 weapon and add the reliable property, but I remembered you gave him the Isger Fixer trait so no need for reliable anymore. How do you get to Initiative +9 btw?
To both: is the Craft skill really required? (I may have missed something in the gunslinger class -- why are you both recommending this?) I see you both recommend Deadly Aim and Point Blank Master, so they are both a sure bet IMO.
Thanks a zillion! we will playtest this tonight!
Any recommendations on deeds aside from the bleeding one?
Sorry, ignore the cold damage by the musket, I swapped frost for reliable and forgot to remove the cold damage entry.
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Sarcon: shouldn't it be +20/+20/+15/+10 instead of +16/+16/+11/+6
BAB 11 + 1 point blank shot + 1 weapon focus + 1 gun training + 5 DEX + 3 magic musket = 22, minus two for rapid shot = 20 ?
Sarcon: I may add the keen property at the cost of +1... when you use the targeting torso deed, the musket crit range becomes 17-20...
Sarcon: I thought the keen enchantment was for melee weapons only because it's not on the ranged weapon enchantment table.
Hmmm...you're right. I'm pretty sure it used to be in 3.5, so I just used it out of habit. Strange, being that ranged weapons can be piercing weapons, which the ability is geared towards. Guess we'll have to take Improved Critical (musket) to do it. That's a bummer. Paizo loses a pickle for that one.
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Sarcon: shouldn't it be +20/+20/+15/+10 instead of +16/+16/+11/+6
BAB 11 + 1 point blank shot + 1 weapon focus + 1 gun training + 5 DEX + 3 magic musket = 22, minus two for rapid shot = 20 ?
Sarcon: I may add the keen property at the cost of +1... when you use the targeting torso deed, the musket crit range becomes 17-20...
Keen with signature deed (targeting) for constant 17-20 crit range is appealing... I want to keep signature deed (bleeding) too... so I need to drop a feat from Sarcon's list... seeing that the party we will playtest with has two melee types already, I may get rid of Point Blank Master and shoot from the back rows. The only annoying thing left to deal with is the -4 for shooting in melee (no precise shot feat has been selected... is there a magic item enhance that fills in for precise shot?)
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here's my final feats selection... thank you guys!
1 Rapid Reload
Human Deadly Aim
3 Point Blank Shot
4B Weapon Focus
5 Lightning Reload Deed
7 Precise Shot
8B Improved Critical (musket)
9 Signature Deed (Targeting)
11 Signature Deed (Bleeding Wound)
This takes away weapon specialization, but now the character will crit at 17-20 all the time and inflict 5 bleeding all the time... makes up for the weapon specialization I think, considering that it's x4 crit
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Here's the final version for tonight's playtest:
Anton Smythe – Gunslinger 11
N Medium Humanoid (Human)
Init +9
Senses Perception +21
DEFENSE
AC 25, touch 17, flat-footed 20 (+8 armor, +5 Dex, +2 Ring)
hp 99 (11d10+33)
Fort +8, Ref +12, Will +8 (+11 vs Fear)
OFFENSE
Speed 30 ft.
Melee
Ranged +3 Distance Seeking Musket w/Deadly Aim, Point Blank Shot +19/+14/+9 (1d12+14+bleed 5; 17-20/x4 crit)
Class Abilities grit (5 pt), deeds, brave and tough (+3 Fort/Will saves vs. fear), gun training (musket, pistol…)
STATISTICS
Str 10, Dex 20, Con 14, Int 12, Wis 20, Cha 8
Base Atk +11/+6/+1; CMB +11; CMD 26
Feats 6+2+1
1 Rapid Reload
Human Deadly Aim
3 Point Blank Shot
4B Weapon Focus
5 Lightning Reload Deed
7 Precise Shot
8B Improved Critical (musket)
9 Signature Deed (Targeting)
11 Signature Deed (Bleeding Wound)
Skills Acrobatics +19 , Craft (gunsmith) +15, Knowledge (Local) +15,Perception +21
Traits Reactionary, Isger Fixer
Languages Common, Draconic
+3 distance musket – 33,800
+2 mithral breastplate – 8,350
ring of protection +2 – 8,000
bag of holding I – 2,500
boots of levitation – 7,500
headband of inspired wisdom (+4) – 16,000
bullets (200) – 200
black powder (200 doses) – 2,000
eyes of the eagle – 2,500
Potion of haste – 750
Starting Wealth: 82,000 Spent: 81,600
Ok, so I'm trying to wrap my head around this...
So you can't split up iterative attacks among different targets with this mechanic, right?
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had to get rid of auto bleed.... signature deed feat can only be taken at 11th level... added rapid shot back...
Anton Smythe – Gunslinger 11
N Medium Humanoid (Human)
Init +9
Senses Perception +21
DEFENSE
AC 25, touch 17, flat-footed 20 (+8 armor, +5 Dex, +2 Ring)
hp 99 (11d10+33)
Fort +8, Ref +12, Will +8 (+11 vs Fear)
OFFENSE
Speed 30 ft.
Melee
Ranged +3 Distance Seeking Musket w/Deadly Aim, Point Blank Shot, Rapid Shot +17/+17/+12/+7 (1d12+14; 17-20/x4 crit)
Class Abilities grit (5 pt), deeds, brave and tough (+3 Fort/Will saves vs. fear), gun training (musket, pistol…)
STATISTICS
Str 10, Dex 20, Con 14, Int 12, Wis 20, Cha 8
Base Atk +11/+6/+1; CMB +11; CMD 26
Feats 6+2+1
1 Rapid Reload
Human Deadly Aim
3 Point Blank Shot
4B Weapon Focus
5 Lightning Reload Deed
7 Precise Shot
8B Improved Critical (musket)
9 Rapid Shot
11 Signature Deed (Targeting)
Skills Acrobatics +19 , Craft (gunsmith) +15, Knowledge (Local) +15,Perception +21
Traits Reactionary, Isger Fixer
Languages Common, Draconic
+3 distance musket – 33,800
+2 mithral breastplate – 8,350
ring of protection +2 – 8,000
bag of holding I – 2,500
boots of levitation – 7,500
headband of inspired wisdom (+4) – 16,000
bullets (200) – 200
black powder (200 doses) – 2,000
eyes of the eagle – 2,500
Potion of haste – 750
Starting Wealth: 82,000 Spent: 81,600
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Ok, so I'm trying to wrap my head around this...
So you can't split up iterative attacks among different targets with this mechanic, right?
Correct. Also, you give up the Touch AC nonsense.
It's primarily a high-level mechanic; it fixes the main issue Gunslingers have at high levels, which is ammo cost. The fix is such that Ammo cost concerns are reduced across the level range, though still a significant problem at levels 1-3.
It also has a big secondary benefit, in that it significantly reduces the issue with reload times, which is a crippling problem for gunslingers until 11th level, at which point it becomes trivial.
The "single target per round" is a drawback, but the pickle rules have a third benefit that, at least in my opinion, outweighs the limitation: it feels right.
The entire point of pre-automatic guns is that you get a single devastating shot, and that's exactly what the pickle rules give you. It creates a significant difference in how the gunslinger feels compared to McFighterMan Archer builds.
The gunslinger isn't wall of bullets man the way a Fighter or Ranger is wall of arrows man. He's a cold, calm, collected executioner.
And best of all, if you don't want your gunslinger to play that way, just grab the Quickdraw feat and convince your GM to let you have a pair of Revolvers (use pistol stats, but 6 shots instead of one, and musket reload time). Now you can be wall of bullets man. High levels will be hard, though.
I was using targeting torso and improved crit and someone said it wouldnt stack, is keen different in wording?
Yes, I agree with BobChuck.
The "Pickle" fixes the ammo cost issue, and reduces the issue with reload times, making the Gunslinger a slow, deliberate heavy arsenalist that CAN pack as much a punch as a full stat/feated Fighter with two weapons or two-handers. They regain/retain their effectiveness as field combatants, but are scary on the "ranged" side instead of the "melee" side of battle.
If individual players want to play the "wall of bullets" style, they still can, just revert to the 1 shot/attack roll mechanic.
Personally, I can't wait to see how the "pickle" style works with the following character model:
Gunslinger/Rogue/Assassin - imagine how scary a sniper assassin would be, especially if you enhance your musket to be "silenced" and block out the muzzle flash with a "darkness spell, and the wielder with goggles of night or darkvision.
All hail to the Pickle...
Perhaps our Paizo pals should create firearm styles, like the ranger with his combat styles, with either a "wall of bullets" or "devastating single shot" style, using the already estabished mechanics for the one, and pickle substitute mechanics for the other. That way you have the ability to creat a scary gun-toting ranged assassin, or a fleet-footed, pistol and sabre wielding pirate/swashbucking type.
I was using targeting torso and improved crit and someone said it wouldnt stack, is keen different in wording?
Edit:I thought the keen enchantment was for melee weapons only because it's not on the ranged weapon enchantment table.
If we're following the rules for the test, then lets do so. Although, I don't know why keen can't be used on a ranged weapon like a bow or gun (piercing or slashing weapons only for the ability). I was sure you could use it on ranged weapons in 3.5? Maybe I was wrong.
In any case, we must do what we feel is right. I personally would still use keen.
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RPG Superstar Season 9 Top 16, RPG Superstar 2015 Top 32
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It's primarily a high-level mechanic; it fixes the main issue Gunslingers have at high levels, which is ammo cost.It also has a big secondary benefit, in that it significantly reduces the issue with reload times, which is a crippling problem for gunslingers until 11th level, at which point it becomes trivial.
I am just going to play devil's advocate for a moment. I love this idea, but I feel someone should offer some counter to it in a friendly way before we have someone jump in and yell about how they hate it.
The ammo cost in Golarion is expensive, but I believe it has been stated the costs could come down in Ultimate Combat because it is mostly optional material. I know one of the developers has already stated that the book will also have some suggestions on how to handle the cost in games where guns are a major part of the story, game, and world.
The reload issue is something I am still working on with my own class rebuild. I see no reason why Rapid Reload and Lightening Reload should not be given to the gunslinger for free. I gave Rapid Reload for free at 1st level, and Lightening Reload for free at 3rd. At 7th, the gunslinger can reload a single type of firearm of her choice as a free action as long as there is 1 grit point available.
So at 1st level the time to reload goes down, at 3rd the gunslinger can reload quickly when he really needs to, and at 7th he can reload his chosen firearm as much as he wants so long as he managing his grit right. At 11th level a second weapon can be reloaded for free as long as grit stays at 1. That means by the time we have 3 attacks a full attack can be done with both a handgun and a musket.
Of course, my rebuilt class has more grit (1/2 level + Wis) then the normal gunslinger so the grit reliant abilities are useful longer.
This isn't to say that the idea in this post is a bad one, or one that I don't like. I love the idea. I just wonder if it is no longer useful if a normal full attack could be done with a firearm.
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The attack calculations did not include point blank shot. That is a situational bonus, everything else is static if you decide to use it.
+9 init via DEX , reactionary feat and gunslinger initiative deed?
yes, really wanted to add improved initiative for a +13, but not enough room.
Improved Critical (Combat)[/b]
Attacks made with your chosen weapon are quite deadly.
Prerequisite: Proficient with weapon, base attack bonus +8.
Benefit: When using the weapon you selected, your threat range is doubled.
Special: You can gain Improved Critical multiple times. The effects do not stack. Each time you take the feat, it applies to a new type of weapon.
This effect doesn't stack with any other effect that expands the threat range of a weapon.
this is the same wording as keen. so that means that targeting doesn't stack right? I'd love to be wrong about this but i don't think i am.
Ok, so I'm trying to wrap my head around this...
So you can't split up iterative attacks among different targets with this mechanic, right?
Ok. You have two single shot pistols. Using the TWF feat line, you may deal a respectable amount of damage to two targets. Because you have two single shot pistols.
Or, grab yourself a musket and absolutely slaughter a single target.
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Gunslinger/Rogue/Assassin - imagine how scary a sniper assassin would be, especially if you enhance your musket to be "silenced" and block out the muzzle flash with a "darkness spell, and the wielder with goggles of night or darkvision.
All hail to the Pickle...
You, Sir, have just come up with my next nasty BBEG concept. I will playtest this in the form of a constant plague for the group I am DMing through CoT right now... (i.e. the Council of Thieves, after chapter 5, will get absolutely pissed at the PCs and put a bounty on their heads, advertising the bounty throughout all of Cheliax' underworld and through their agents abroad. A couple weeks after their latest win, this guy will show up and try to pick them off one by one by stalking their hideout...
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I was using targeting torso and improved crit and someone said it wouldnt stack, is keen different in wording?
who said improved crit and torso don't stack? the wording of the class does not say so... did someone official said this? (too late for the purpose of this playtest as the game starts in half an hour, so I will assume improved crit and targeting stack... not unbalanced as you have to waste a grit point everytime you target OR take the Signature Deed (targeting feat to do it, IMO)
EDIT: the Targeting deed has the added drawback of "Creatures that are immune to sneak attack are immune to these effects." So the greater threat range won't affect incorporeals, elementals, oozes, as well as gibbering mouthers, chaos beasts, omox demons, jellyfishes, proteans, sandmen, and vampiric mists...
...so I feel good enough to think it's balanced at this point.
Let the stacking be for the purposes of the playtest... I will record all rolls to see if 17-20 makes a huge difference over 19-20 anyhow...
who said improved crit and torso don't stack? the wording of the class does not say so... did someone official said this? (too late for the purpose of this playtest as the game starts in half an hour, so I will assume improved crit and targeting stack... not unbalanced as you have to waste a grit point everytime you target OR take the Signature Deed (targeting feat to do it, IMO)I was using targeting torso and improved crit and someone said it wouldnt stack, is keen different in wording?
I was using improved crit and targeting in my play test, look up my thread in playtest forum it's either level 7 gunslinger or level 8 ronin playtest where its talked about.
Just chiming in briefly to say that I think this is an elegant and very workable solution to the problem of balancing some measure of verisimilitude against game balance in regards to firearms.
As a DM, I use this very bit of fluff fairly often myself in regards to warriors wielding heavy weapons. If they are fighting only a single opponent, I've been known to coalesce multiple hits on a full-attack into one big, bone-shattering strike landed amongst the various feints and parries.
Regarding the issue of multiple misfires, I'd say that it's easily addressed by simply stating that a given gun can only "misfire" once in a single round of attacking, and that a "misfire" doesn't preclude hitting and dealing damage with the gun. Seems fair to me.