So... I realize that shurikens are ammo for almost all considerations, and I think that it is brilliant, except for one case. Adamantine. If it is the hardest substance in the game, and a shuriken is made of Adamantine, shouldn't it survive hitting a fleshy (heck, even armored) apponent? If it misses, sure 50% chance I lost it. But if I hit something, the solid metal adamantine hunk of death is destroyed? Just pondering and wanted others opinions.
"Should"
I almost started this thread myself, what is the point of making ammo adamantine if they break anyway? there's DR of course but thats pretty situational
Well, in the core rulebook under ammunition, it starts the sentence with "Generally speaking" which implies it is not ALWAYS so. I would say adamantine ammo is an exception.
Greg
Also, if it is non-magical, it can be mended (as per the spell).
This is a trouble of fantasy book-keeping conventions being countered by real world behavior.
In reality, if you hit a deer with an arrow, there's a good chance you'll be able to pull that arrow out of the corpse. In fantasy literature? Same thing. Remember the guy who killed Smaug? He pulls the black arrow out of his quiver, says, "Black arrow, you have never failed me," and let's fly. The black arrow lives up to its history, and shortly thereafter there's a dead dragon. Whether the black arrow was recoverable was probably moot, as a red dragon crash landed with it a ways off.
In game rule, all the arrows that hit are broken and unusable. This I think is one of the most often house ruled and handwaved rules there is.
Personally, I'd just say that if 50% of the ammo that misses is recoverable, then 25% of what hits is recoverable.
As for what happens with adamantine, since diamonds can shatter, I think it's possible for adamantine to break as well, especially if it's hitting foes with weird magic, acid, fire, cold, and so on.
Yes, this is a house rule, but it's a house rule that let's one of the iconic scenes in fantasy literature stay as written, rather than coming up with silliness about how game rules trump reality.
Well the reason I bring this up is for two reasons.
I love throwing and have yet to figure out a way to make a decent thrower. Shurikens are pretty rockin for this reason combined with a SA. But unlike any other thrown weapon, they may get destroyed when thrown and do lose their special abilities when thrown. And unlike every other ammunition type, there is no weapon that can imbue them with special enhancements when fired. One could use daggers, but then you need to enchant every one..... kind of expensive (my second reason for this thread).
The fighter is happy with a single enchanted weapon, the bowman is happy with a single enchanted weapon, but the thrower has to spend massive amounts of gold on multiple weapons (shurikens or normal thrown). I dunno, I realize that there are house rules and such, but I wish there was some love (aka way to be fiscally feasable) for throwers.
I think the trouble here is that you're not looking at the mechanic enough.
By the rules, someone can enchant one magic bow that can be used by one archer, which enchants all the arrows it shoots but only as they're shot. Alternately, someone can enchant 50 magic arrows, which can be used to outfit an entire squadron of archers, or mix-and-matched to make quivers with assortments of specialty magic arrows so that the archer always has the right arrow for any given problem. "Oh, look, it's a fire elemental. Better pull out the Frost Burst arrows."
If you're worried about cost effectiveness with enchanted shuriken, just ask the GM to look at the enchantments for bows and crossbows and ask him to let you make or buy some sort of magic fingerguard or somesuch that enchants your shurikens or lets you conjure one to your fingers with the appropriate magics and bonuses which you then get to throw. The enchantments or even the shuriken itself disappears shortly thereafter, but there's no real change in the mechanics or the cost.
No, this item does not specifically exist in the game at the moment, but the mechanics for making one do, and as it's no more powerful or significantly different from a magic crossbow, I can't see many GMs who would object to it.
I've always played that arrows are broken if they hit their target.
But this doesn't mean that the arrow is disintegrated.
The heads can be remounted on other shafts, if they are recovered.
If there is a caster with the cantrip Mending who is willing to spend a bit of time, then most arrows can be repaired.
well an enchanted bow enchants arrows.... so would an enchanted AMF enchant shuriken? You do fire with you hands after all (I'm pretty sure it doesn't but this does leave inconsistencies)
An Amulet of Mighty Fists no more enhances shuriken than it does a longsword. It only enhances unarmed strikes.
A bracer or glove that enhances shuriken similar to how a bow enhances arrows is common in my games for ninja-type characters.
An Amulet of Mighty Fists no more enhances shuriken than it does a longsword. It only enhances unarmed strikes.
A bracer or glove that enhances shuriken similar to how a bow enhances arrows is common in my games for ninja-type characters.
I was aware, just pointing out that one of those items seems necessary
For a discounted cost on adamantine shuriken, try adamantine weapon blanch from the APG. Instead of real adamantine costing an extra 60 gp per shuriken, the weapon blanch will make a shuriken adamantine for a single attack for 10 gp. Saves you 50 gp per shuriken, making the ones that are lost not so painful in your coin purse region.
Yar!
There be two threads that discuss this in some form, found HERE and HERE.
In the second one, both SKR and JJ chimed in. Below I have quoted their two most relevant posts:
Early 3e question to 3e D&D staff at Gen Con, back when shuriken didn't count as ammo for magic properties:
Dude: Because I can throw multiple shuriken in a round, does that mean my monk can get a bunch of +1 flaming shuriken and throw them in one round?
Me: Yes, at the cost of 8,300 gp each. At three attacks per round, that's almost 25,000 gp you're literally throwing at your enemy. It's probably more cost effective to just bribe the enemy to surrender.
If someone wants returning shuriken, let them... but make the shuriken non-expendable and make the PC pay full price for each one (not ammo price). And remember if the thrower isn't in the same square at the start of his next turn when the weapons return, they fall to the ground and sit there... assuming nobody picks them up, or you're not in a river, or....
There's a few reasons shurikens are treated as ammo.
1) They do very little damage, so letting the user throw a lot of them in a round is good (treated as ammo, you get your full iterative attacks with them).
2) They are pretty tiny and unlike most thrown weapons they can't be used as melee weapons.
3) We wanted to give them an interesting mechanic so that they'd feel a bit different and, well, exotic, compared to other thrown weapons.
Placing the returning quality on a shuriken is technically possible, but it's kind of a waste of money since a magic shuriken is indeed destroyed when it hits. The returning aspect only kicks in if you miss. But part of the point of the returning quality is that it lets you get back your expensive thrown weapon so you can use it again, and so you don't lose it. Magic shurikens are so cheap since they're ammo that you don't really NEED returning on it. Put some other magic quality on it instead and just get a stack of them.
If you're looking for a larger throwing-star type weapon that works as an actual thrown weapon and would be able to fully utilize the returning quality, you should pick up a starknife. That's more or less what I invented them to be back in the day in my homebrew game—to be biggie-sized throwing stars that combine the cool of shurikens and boomerangs. (Yes, in my homebrew, normal starknifes return like boomerangs when thrown... that bit got edited out in print.)
~P
I think the problem with magically enhancing shuriken will be fixed with Ultimate Combat. If not, I agree with the earlier suggestion to make a glove or other such item that you can enhance to do the same thing. I did this long before I even started working on my homebrew ninja, though I never got to put it in the game, as the player went a different route with his character.
As for adamantine shuriken being 'destroyed' after use, roll the 50% chance normally. Those that would be 'destroyed' are instead just missing, and those that survive are intact. Those that hit a target gain the "broken" condition, and must be repaired. I can't imagine it would shatter on impact, otherwise it would be a crappy weapon and do little damage, but tips could break, edges could chip. Serviceable, but not in prime condition.
@ Pirate
Thank you for the links! I searched both adamantine and shuriken in the forums. Found the first one, but didn't find the second, thanks for pulling out the qoutes!
Guys shuriken are not ammo, they are only treated as ammo for drawing out or with the use of the magic weapon spell. They're not listed on the weapon ammunition breakage chart. They're not listed on the cost chart for ammunition. They are listed on the exotic ranged weapon chart. They do not break when you throw them.
Guys shuriken are not ammo, they are only treated as ammo for drawing out or with the use of the magic weapon spell. They're not listed on the weapon ammunition breakage chart. They're not listed on the cost chart for ammunition. They are listed on the exotic ranged weapon chart. They do not break when you throw them.
"Although they are thrown weapons, shuriken are treated as ammunition for the purposes of drawing them, crafting masterwork or otherwise special versions of them, and what happens to them after they are thrown."
Coupled with the above quotes kinda proves you wrong.
Which is disappointing in the extreme, but that's how it works. Some options are designed specifically by the devs to suck. Crossbows. Unarmed Attacks. Throwing wepaons in general, especially Special Material/Enchanted Shuriken.
Ill admit Ryngen that part is confusing, but it by no means proves me wrong.
That's the only reference that might me seen that way, but I have shown 4 others that say differently.
I'll take the 4 to 1 odds that I'm right anyday.
And lets just throw common sense lnto the mix ad well, shall we? It's not poof, but it is leading.
Ill admit Ryngen that part is confusing, but it by no means proves me wrong.
That's the only reference that might me seen that way, but I have shown 4 others that say differently.
I'll take the 4 to 1 odds that I'm right anyday.
And lets just throw common sense lnto the mix ad well, shall we? It's not poof, but it is leading.
On the contrary, it's quite clear.
They're not on the lists you mention because they are thrown weapons.But their description in the core rule book clearly states that they're treated as ammunition for crafting, enchanting and for what happens to them after they're thrown.
Therefore they do break.
Ill admit Ryngen that part is confusing, but it by no means proves me wrong.
That's the only reference that might me seen that way, but I have shown 4 others that say differently.
I'll take the 4 to 1 odds that I'm right anyday.
And lets just throw common sense lnto the mix ad well, shall we? It's not poof, but it is leading.
No. That's not how rules work.
You can't say "Here are 4 things that may lead to an interpretation that proves me right" when there is a single piece that completely proves you wrong.
Quality vs quantity, quality wins every time.
You can have 15 tabloids that say "So and so died of such and such" and that doesn't mean jack s#$& when one forensic scientist completely proves them wrong by providing the truth.
"These things suggest I may be right" doesn't hold up against "This piece in the rules directly states I'm wrong".
The sad fact here is that I can't find anything so far that says "not broken when thrown" to cancel the dogmatic view point on this ruling. But I will continue trying for the good of everyone ever led astray by this.
Shuroken do not break when thrown, the rules plainly show this. If and when I find proof you can't just dismiss ill post it.
Until then I encourage GMs to do whats painfully obvious and let them be what they are designed to be, thrown weapons.
Thanks all, peace!
I suggest you save yourself some time and read the weapons description.
Here it is below, from the Rulebook.
Shuriken: A shuriken is a small piece of metal with sharpened edges, designed for throwing. A shuriken can’t be used as a melee weapon. Although they are thrown weapons, shuriken are treated as ammunition for the purposes of drawing them, crafting masterwork or otherwise special versions of them, and what happens to them after they are thrown.
That means after they are thrown they are considered ammunition...
Ammunition: Projectile weapons use ammunition:
arrows (for bows), bolts (for crossbows), darts (for blowguns), or sling bullets (for slings and half ling sling staves). When using a bow, a character can draw ammunition as a free action; crossbows and slings require an action for reloading (as noted in their descriptions).
Generally speaking, ammunition that hits its target is destroyed or rendered useless, while ammunition that misses has a 50% chance of being destroyed or lost.
Although they are thrown weapons, shuriken are treated as ammunition for the purposes of drawing them, crafting masterwork or otherwise special versions of them (see Masterwork Weapons on page 149), and what happens to them after they are thrown.
... and ammunition is destroyed after it's used.
Yes yes I did read this, and I submit that your view point is wrong, but I acknowledge I can't prove that. Please for the love of Guygax stop trying to shove the same sentance in my face multiple times.
Your still wrong, that's not what that's supposed to mean.
When I can prove it, thus ending this unnessiary debate, ill post it and it will be done.
But.. you already know I'm right, don't You? :-)
Please for the love of Guygax stop trying to shove the same sentance in my face multiple times.
The reason people are showing you the same sentence repeatedly is because you have so far failed to understand that you are factually incorrect on this matter, BECAUSE OF THAT SENTENCE.
Simply because you don't like it does not mean it's not true.
I don't like that gravity prevents me from floating around whenever I feel like it. That doesn't mean I'm going to somehow "disprove gravity" because I don't like how it works.
Yes yes I did read this, and I submit that your view point is wrong, but I acknowledge I can't prove that. Please for the love of Guygax stop trying to shove the same sentance in my face multiple times.
Your still wrong, that's not what that's supposed to mean.
When I can prove it, thus ending this unnessiary debate, ill post it and it will be done.But.. you already know I'm right, don't You? :-)
Can't tell if trolling or poor comprehension skills...
Well the reason I bring this up is for two reasons.
I love throwing and have yet to figure out a way to make a decent thrower. Shurikens are pretty rockin for this reason combined with a SA. But unlike any other thrown weapon, they may get destroyed when thrown and do lose their special abilities when thrown. And unlike every other ammunition type, there is no weapon that can imbue them with special enhancements when fired. One could use daggers, but then you need to enchant every one..... kind of expensive (my second reason for this thread).
The fighter is happy with a single enchanted weapon, the bowman is happy with a single enchanted weapon, but the thrower has to spend massive amounts of gold on multiple weapons (shurikens or normal thrown). I dunno, I realize that there are house rules and such, but I wish there was some love (aka way to be fiscally feasable) for throwers.
One solution to this problem is to take a race with an SLA, and then take arcane strike. That feat works off of your highest CL (which, for a racial SLA, is your character level), and for a swift action, it imbues all your "weapons" with 1-5 additional damage and allows them to pierce DR/magic.
After that, you just need to get some special material throwing weapons at a cheap price (do you even need masterwork?) and you are good to go against anything short of DR/alignment...most of the time. You still might want to get quick draw, some daggers, and maybe light hammers, for other types of DR. The bonus to hit is not as good obviously, but it still works, generally.
Right back at you Noireve "winks"
You guys can deny all you like, but i still have yet to see any of you back up your claim.
My group and the two others we work with total three GM's and 17 players.
So far, only one GM and 3 players agree that it 'MUST' be what that line means. Most think it might mean that and I and 5 others are sure it does not.
So if you're having a problem understanding why this question is being dicussed that's on you.
Now, if anyone has anything intelligent to add, like further proof one way or the other please do.
Other wise talk to the hand *smiles*
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Ah, yes, the classic 'you have hard evidence disproving my stance, thus I completely ignore it' debate tactic. It's a classic.
The line says that they're treated as ammo in relation to what happens when they're thrown.
Ammo is broken after it's thrown.
A=B, B=C, therefore A=C.
Logic train arriving on track 5, all aboard!
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Three years.
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At least we can see that Mr. James Marrins never came back with his alleged proof.